God will never "tempt" us, but he will "test"us...
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Thanks Matthew, using Logos I only found it in JI Packer's concise theology (Again without a definitive source) - apparently your library is larger than mine.
I feel a sudden need to buy more books....[8-)]
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
We must bear in mind that he does have frightful powers, but knowing that those can only be exercised under God’s direction and pleasure gives us hope
Heaven Forbid !!! I don't know who the "us" is that he references. I can assure you that I am not part of that group. I find absolutely no comfort in that thought.
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Schezic said:
Did you find " The devil is God's devil" ?
Not in Luther. (only in Packer's Concise Theology, Milne's The Message of John, and the Reformation Study Bible, for me)
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Thomas Black said:
Thanks Matthew, using Logos I only found it in JI Packer's concise theology (Again without a definitive source) - apparently your library is larger than mine.
I feel a sudden need to buy more books....
Don't worry, March Madness is coming soon to a Logos near you!
But how come I didn't get a hit on Packer? I also have the Fortress Press "Basic Writings of Martin Luther" in addition to the Works of Luther. Neither gives me a hit for the quote. Must be a little different wording.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Schezic said:
Heaven Forbid !!! I don't know who the "us" is that he references. I can assure you that I am not part of that group. I find absolutely no comfort in that thought.
I think Max was writing that book just for me. I sleep well at night knowing who is with me.
Being the Calminian that I am, I really don't want to agitate either camp
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Matt 12:24-28
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons." 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
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Schezic said:
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons." 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Point being?
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Schezic said:
"Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
I agree. A simple survey of demonic activities shows the enemy is quite divided and destroying each other. Even if Beelzebub's kingdom were not divided, the sovereign God will prevail has prevailed. No need for me to determine whether my present trials are temptations or a test, so long as I conquer in Jesus. My faith rests in God.
This is a frequent stumbling block for many. "If God us sovereign," they ask, "How can He allow evil?" I would counter with "If some hardship brings me closer to having the character of Christ, how can it be evil?" I think that is the difference between a test and a temptation, regardless of who instigated it.
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David Paul said:
Point being?
Don't be bull-headed...er ... Ram-headed. Even if you don't agree with me...Ray Charles could see the "Point"
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Are we all being tempted or tested with our responses in this thread?
Let us return to the original question of how to apply Logos software.
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You noticed the star
under your name avatar? [:P]0 -
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Ask Ray.
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Matthew C Jones said:
Are we all being tempted or tested with our responses in this thread?
Let us return to the original question of how to apply Logos software.
Questions of this type, "How would you use Logos to answer this..." almost always devolve into a theological discussion/debate.
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Schezic said:David Paul said:
Point being?
Don't be bull-headed...er ... Ram-headed. Even if you don't agree with me...Ray Charles could see the "Point"
Hmmm. Ram-headed or not...I'm not even sure whose post your quote was supposed to be related to. I kinda see how the quote is related to the whole topic, but I just finished explaining to a friend how the passage you quoted is often misunderstood. Therefore, simply quoting a scripture gives no indication of how you or anyone else intends it to be understood. Your own commentary is required. I rarely "assume" I understand someone based on limited information. And a 2000 year old quote is even more limited than I normally encounter.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
And a 2000 year old quote is even more limited than I normally encounter.
Sorry, I am not aware of any documented quotes of Christ that are much newer than 2000 years. If the time frame limits your interpretation, I really wouldn't know what to say that would help you. Maybe consult your logos resources as to the meaning of the passage. [:)]
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David Paul said:
I'm not even sure whose post your quote was supposed to be related to.
edited for errors
generic point of information: The little icon to the left of a poster's name is a link to the post he is replying to. Clicking on the "REPLIES" icon will take your page view to the post. It only gets confusing if the poster clicks randomly on another post to reply. If a poster just wants to add to the ongoing discussion they can hit "Quick Reply" on the lower right of the latest post. The black arrow points to the described icon (in the red circle)
How about that little red star? [:D]
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Matthew C Jones said:
How about that little red star?
I am whelmed. Thanks for the fake star. That is as close as I will ever be to an MVP. [:D]
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Actually that icon is the link to the CURRENT post, the words "replied to" hold the link to the thread you're replying to.Matthew C Jones said:generic point of information: The little icon to the left of a poster's name is a link to the post he is replying to.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Now I'm Really Confuzzed. Two men with badges having conflicting stories. [8-)] Who can You Trust?
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Thomas Black said:
Actually that icon is the link to the CURRENT post, the words "replied to" hold the link to the thread you're replying to.Matthew C Jones said:generic point of information: The little icon to the left of a poster's name is a link to the post he is replying to.
OOPS! [:|]
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Matthew C Jones said:
OOPS!
OK. That makes it a bit clearer which lawman I should trust. [:)] Kinda like Andy Taylor and Barney Fiffe.
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Matthew C Jones said:
A search of my library returned 8 hits for the phrase "the Devil is God's Devil" in quotes. All directly attributed to Luther with no footnotes as where Luther said it.
I may certainly be wrong - but I don't think Luther said it.
- Luther spoke German (Saxon?) and Latin not English
- Translated to English I think the phrase is more like "the devil is God's ape"
But I don't want to get involved in either a philological or theological debate ... so who has Luther in the original German? I'll take your opinion in the matter (unless you give me reason to think your joshing).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
edited for errors
Matthew C Jones said:
So very glad you didn't edit out my star.
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Schezic said:
Do you believe the quote from "What Luther Says" is authentic? Is Ewald Plass a credible source?
Not if he doesn't give a source for the quotation. There are a number of misquotes that "everyone knows" that get perpetuated from book to book without anyone actually checking it. What did George Washington say when he chopped down the cherry tree? Beats me. He may or may not have chopped down the tree. He may or may not have said "I cannot tell a lie".
So no - someone needs to give me a source in Luther's writings or, perhaps, a contemporary biography of Luther (contemporary to Luther not to me) before I'm convinced. I'm not saying he didn't - merely that I personally don't know that he did. I do know that he called the Devil "God's ape". I also know that current scholarship shows that the word "ape" in English comes from Proto-Germanic which mostly likely borrowed it from the Celts; it appears to be a non-Indo-European addition to the language.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I may certainly be wrong - but I don't think Luther said it.
Schezic said:Do you believe the quote from "What Luther Says" is authentic? Is Ewald Plass a credible source?
I will concede Luther is at least credited with saying it. But what does it matter if Martin, Ewald, Ange or Barney said it? The point is well made whether it be "devil" or "ape." Satan is not going to get one over on God.Schezic said:Andy Taylor and Barney Fiffe.
(nice avatar there. Schezic.)
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Why, Thank you Sir.
Not as nice as your star, But it will do until they let me put bullets in my gun. [:D]
Matthew C Jones said:Satan is not going to get one over on God.
In essence, Satan has "gotten one over on God," If he can dupe us into promoting the myth that God is responsible for the pain and suffering that Satan has caused/contributed to. In the end, God will be proven just. Meanwhile some could be disillusioned by misinformation.
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[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
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Schezic said:
In essence, Satan has "gotten one over on God,
Many demons probably thought that the day Christ was crucified. The pain & suffering of Christ worked out for good.
Schezic said:promoting the myth that God is responsible for the pain and suffering
I believe God himself initiates some pain & suffering.
“For
whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he
receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons;
for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without
chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not
sons.”
Hebrews 12:6-8No need to blame Satan for all of it.
C. S. Lewis, and a handful of others, address a loving God allowing suffering much better than I ever could. Pain is not always a bad thing. I would still have have two feet if my pain receptors worked as God designed them to.
Who will write the test?Schezic said:God will be proven just.
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Matthew C Jones said:
C. S. Lewis, and a handful of others, address a loving God allowing suffering much better than I ever could.
I have never argued that God did not Allow suffering.
Matthew C Jones said:I believe God himself initiates some pain & suffering.
If you find comfort in believing that, More power to you.
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Matthew C Jones said:
I believe God himself initiates some pain & suffering.
“For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.”
Hebrews 12:6-8No need to blame Satan for all of it.
Remember Job -- not exactly the patient guy he is frequently portrayed as being. Everyone tries to say that his suffering is because he has sinned or to test him, etc. Finally he curses God (by cursing the day of his birth) and challenges God to debate him. What chutzpah ! What does God say ? Basically, "You're a fool ! Answer my questions." And the questions ? "Were you present at the creation of the universe ?" "Have you set the rules for the operation of the universe ?" "How do the seasons take place ?"
7Gird your loins like a man;
I will ask, and you will inform Me.
8Would you impugn My justice?
Would you condemn Me that you may be right?
9Have you an arm like God’s?
Can you thunder with a voice like His?
10Deck yourself now with grandeur and eminence;
Clothe yourself in glory and majesty.
11Scatter wide your raging anger;
See every proud man and bring him low.
12See every proud man and humble him,
And bring them down where they stand.
13Bury them all in the earth;
Hide their faces in obscurity.
14Then even I would praise you
For the triumph your right hand won you."OK, know-it-all, can you do better ?"
And Job's response to all of this ?
Basically, "Oops ! I stepped in it that time."
4See, I am of small worth; what can I answer You?
I clap my hand to my mouth.
5I have spoken once, and will not reply;
Twice, and will do so no more.george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Matthew C Jones said:
I believe God himself initiates some pain & suffering.
“For
whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he
receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons;
for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without
chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not
sons.”
Hebrews 12:6-8No need to blame Satan for all of it.
[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
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George Somsel said:
Remember Job
Matthew C Jones said:Job 13:15
(Yes, I know. It is bad practice to form theology based on other men's
misunderstandings. But Job apparently did not question God's moral
superiority in whether or not to "temp" &/or "test."The subject of this thread is one of those fascinating ideas I like to explore in Bible study. And while it can certainly benefit me to understand better, I am not sure it is worth breaking fellowship over. It is definitely not a "salvation issue."
Schezic said:
If you find comfort in believing that, More power to you.Matthew C Jones said:I believe God himself initiates some pain & suffering.
I do gain a measure of comfort believing my heavenly Father ("Abba", "Daddy") spanks me when I am naughty rather than the adversary is doing a successful end-run around my Protector. Testing, temptation, trials and persecution.........it all works out for good.
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Matthew C Jones said:
I do gain a measure of comfort believing my heavenly Father ("Abba", "Daddy") spanks me when I am naughty rather than the adversary is doing successful end-run around my Protector. Testing, temptation, trials and persecution.........it all works out for good.
"Abba" is not "Daddy."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Matthew C Jones said:
I will concede Luther is at least credited with saying it. But what does it matter if Martin, Ewald, Ange or Barney said it?
None whatsoever ... my first post was intended to get the thread out of theology (theodicy); my second (and unnecessary) post was to say "when I say 'where's the beef' I mean 'where's the beef" a.k.a. take me at my word.[H]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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George Somsel said:
"Abba" is not "Daddy."
Please expound George. I truly welcome it.
If two 5 year olds decide to streak through the church parking lot. I only spank the one that is my son. Both boys would do well to keep an eye out for their own respective "Abba" [;)]
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Matthew C Jones said:
James Barr wrote an article on this in the Journal of Theological Studies. See
http://www.supakoo.com/rick/ricoblog/2009/10/09/OnLdquoAbbardquoAsAramaicForLdquoDaddyrdquo.aspx
http://aramaicdesigns.blogspot.com/2009/06/abba-isnt-daddy-traditional-aramaic.html
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Matthew C Jones said:
James Barr wrote an article on this in the Journal of Theological Studies. See
http://www.supakoo.com/rick/ricoblog/2009/10/09/OnLdquoAbbardquoAsAramaicForLdquoDaddyrdquo.aspx
http://aramaicdesigns.blogspot.com/2009/06/abba-isnt-daddy-traditional-aramaic.html
Thanks for the links George.
There is something interesting about the inclusion of the Aramaic "Abba" which suggests it means (or connotes) something more than the Greek word "pater" does, since if it meant exactly the same thing, why include the Aramaic at all, or else include Aramaic more often?
The fact that both children and adults used this term, that it is quoted (in Aramaic) in the NT suggests to me that the English word "Dad" may be the best overall translation of "Abba." There's an interesting scene in an old Mash episode where Winchester is talking to Hawkeye and laments that whereas he (Winchester) had a father, Hawkeye had a dad. The difference between 'father' and 'dad' in English is primarily one of connotation (not denotation), and so I think "Dad" captures "Abba" better than "Father" but certainly better than "Daddy" (the "y" ending tending toward the endearing diminutive in English, and the term used rarely by adults toward their fathers).
Anyway, I hate to contribute to a tangent of a thread that was already off-topic. But I couldn't help myself this time.
Please ignore the star. I'm just being a person for now.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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George Somsel said:Matthew C Jones said:
James Barr wrote an article on this in the Journal of Theological Studies. See
http://www.supakoo.com/rick/ricoblog/2009/10/09/OnLdquoAbbardquoAsAramaicForLdquoDaddyrdquo.aspx
http://aramaicdesigns.blogspot.com/2009/06/abba-isnt-daddy-traditional-aramaic.html
Here's where the article can be accessed. It does require a subscription.
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Richard DeRuiter said:
and so I think "Dad" captures "Abba" better than "Father" but certainly better than "Daddy" (the "y" ending tending toward the endearing diminutive in English, and the term used rarely by adults toward their fathers).
I'm 51 years of age and it is not uncommon in my father's house for my siblings and I to refer to him as "Daddy." It is not so much a term from "baby-talk" as it is a term of familiarity (from the same root word for family.) That is what I get from Jesus calling God "Abba, Father." Regardless of how old we both become, my daddy is always my daddy.
I do thank you George even if Rick Brennan's post did not come cross that way to me.
My Logos library has so many hits to shed light on this one it will be a long time before I exhaust this read, [I] (7541 hits)
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Matthew C Jones said:
My Logos library has so many hits to shed light on this one it will be a long time before I exhaust this read,
(7541 hits)Basic search of Large Text in Library found fewer results, first result thought provoking => logosres:pstsoul7;ref=Page.p_73;off=539 (included in Leader's Library and Scholar's or higher packages)
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Matthew C Jones said:
I'm 51 years of age and it is not uncommon in my father's house for my siblings and I to refer to him as "Daddy."
You forced tempted me to join this thread. My 49-year-old daughter still calls me "Daddy", but my 45-year-old son calls me "Dad" and objects when his daughter calls him "Daddy". But my 47-year-old son calls me "Papa", as do all the grandchildren & great-grandchildren. They all call my wife "Granny" (her choice).
What does all this prove about the correct understanding of Abba? Different people use different terms of endearment for their parents. I see Abba as being that term of intimate endearment, whatever your favorite word might be that signifies this.
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Matthew C Jones said:
It is definitely not a "salvation issue.
Matthew C Jones said:I do gain a measure of comfort believing my heavenly Father ("Abba", "Daddy") spanks me when I am naughty
Matthew; Thank you for being almost as hard headed as I am. What you typed has caused me to do some serious self reflection. Of course, I can see how you think that this is not a salvation issue. Bear with me while I tell you why it almost was for me. My biological father had issues. He had addictions. He was physically and verbally abusive. He neglected my family to the point of starvation. I was less than 6 years old when I plotted to kill him. I am quite a bit older than you. The messages I heard in church during my childhood were very works oriented. Honor thy father and thy mother...or else...and that or else was eternal damnation/hell fire. I existed well into my adult life knowing without a doubt that I was doomed because I couldn't keep that commandment. I had enough spiritual education to know that God was there. He had not abandoned me, I had abandoned Him. The results of living separated from God (Which is my definition of hell) caused me to eventually face the consequences of my actions. In dealing with my own addictions I started a new spiritual journey that has lead me to a new understanding of God. I Think it is near impossible to build our picture of a Heavenly Father, without comparing Him with our earthly father, (Abba) on some level. The word in Heb 12 is often translated discipline, rather that chasteneth. There is a huge difference between discipline and punishment. Discipline can be accomplished without punishment. Punishment should be the last resort. But that had not been my experience. I suppose in my attempt to build a new picture of God, I may have gone overboard in rejecting anything that reminds me of the scars I have carried into my old age.
Let me drive home one more point and I will digress. The hardships/trials/tribulations that eventually caused me To reach out to God, were not stumbling blocks that He had placed in my path...But rather the consequences of my decision to live my life separated from Him. He allowed me the freedom to choose a lifestyle that would create those hardships. He knew that was the only way I could be disciplined.
Forgive me if my explanation has been too graphic. You seem sincere in making your point. I just wanted you to know why I was sincere in making mine.
God Bless
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Schezic said:
I suppose in my attempt to build a new picture of God, I may have gone overboard in rejecting anything that reminds me of the scars I have carried into my old age.
Thank you for that "graphic" explanation. Communication is normally enhanced when we understand each other's background better.
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"Abba"
ABBA. An Aramaic word, in the emphatic state, meaning ‘father’. The word passed into Hebrew, and occurs frequently in TB, where it is used by a child to its father and also as a style of address to rabbis. The term conveyed both a sense of warm intimacy and also filial respect; but in Jewish circles it has never been a form of address to the Almighty.In the the word occurs 3 times, transliterated into Greek; in each instance it is a vocative, addressed to God, and the Greek equivalent is appended (Mk. 14:36; Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6). It appears that the double phrase was common in the Greek-speaking church, where its use may well have been liturgical. (The Lord’s Prayer in its Aramaic form probably began with ’abba.)It appears that it was Jesus who first applied the term to God, and who gave authority to his disciples to do so. Paul sees in its use a symbol of the Christian’s adoption as a son of God and his possession of the Spirit.Bibliography. J. Jeremias, The Central Message of the NT, 1965, pp. 9-30; , Abba, 1966, pp. 1-67; 1, pp. 5.; 5, p. 1006; 1, pp. 614ff. .G. Kittel and G. Friedrich (eds.), Theologisches Wörterbuch zum Neuen Testament, 1932-74; E. T. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. G. W. Bromiley, 10 vols., 1964-760 -
Wow... did this get off the OP's topic...
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