My macbook has never run logos 4 smoothly. Scrolling is brutal. Takes long time to load. Haven't begun using because it takes so long. Other than buying another macbook, any help would be greatly appreciated.
3580.Archive.zip
Charles and Nielsen, I agree completely with your posts. A user of a software product not in Beta should not have to be the ones to "fix" what ails the program. It's ridiculous that one has to jump through so many hoops (searching through forums, going to the wiki, etc.) to tweak the software sufficiently just to get basic acceptable performance (and I'm not talking about trying to make it a speed demon... I'm patient enough to wait for a screen to display. I'm talking about more serious issues) . I do NOT believe anyone would put up with this from any other software, nor know of any that would survive in the marketplace.
It IS a software problem, not a hardware problem, and its become increasingly irritating that the default response always seems to be "gee, what's wrong with your machine?" Between the resources I've purchased and the hardware I've had to buy just to get Logos to run properly (and will soon be purchasing), I've invested more in Logos than the last house I purchased. And you guys are right... its really hard to justify the use of so many financial resources for "ministry" in this day in age. As a missionary, its become an embarrassment trying to justify raising enough funds to buy a computer that's "good enough" to run Logos, when a computer that costs a fraction of that amount can run anything else out there. Logos is quickly becoming an elite software platform, and I for one, despite all I've invested, am having a really hard time keeping up, and an even harder time justifying doing so to my supporters. I'm sure it's not going to be very popular for me to say this on the forums, but I wonder if we all need to step back and question if this is really good stewardship and whether this is really how Jesus would want us to be using our financial resources. How much are we all starting to deceive ourselves and have lost our perspective on our priorities? I confess that I've really been struggling with this.
And I REALLY don't get why Logos feels they need to concentrate on so many projects at once when they haven't fixed what's wrong with the first. An L4 that's incomplete, an L4Mac that doesn't work, incomplete iPhone and iPad apps, Android in the wings, (how many now???) websites for services/new approaches... none of which are up and running properly... continual delays and postponements on releases (does it REALLY take a year for a book to be "Under Development"?)... and now an EEC project they've already been working on for 5 years and won't be ready for another 10 (anyone REALLY believe that it will be ready by then?). Although I understand and appreciate Logos' desire to diversify and help the world transition to a new publishing paradigm, it is trying to do way too much, way too fast, dedicating and diluting too many company resources to too many projects and therefore not completing anything properly (kind of like my dad, who perpetually started projects that ended up languishing for years and which were never really finished). It really seems like all of Logos is now become just one big Beta project.
Logos' customer service is second to none. Their hearts are unquestionably in the right place. Obviously we all love the resources that Logos provides. It's a fantastic company. But one that has seriously gone off in the wrong direction from a customer viewpoint and which can't seem to see that.
I have watched myself over the past couple of weeks changing from a truly ardent Logos fan to becoming a really disgruntled customer. I don't like to see that in myself, and am profoundly troubled about the spiritual implications that may indicate in myself. I'm genuinely trying to work on that, and on the stewardship/priorities issues, and take a sincere hard look and reevaluation of all of this in terms of my own spirit. If in the process, I've offended any of you, please accept my truly sincere apologies. And I am genuinely happy if your Logos experience has been positive for you. It's been less and less so for me. But I don't know if I'm speaking for any sizable percentage of the Logos customer base, or simply for myself. [:(]
If Logos can only be used properly with ssd's, 8 to 18 gigs of ram, 1 gig video cards, then you have moved completely away for a consumer product, and, far removed it from what it is advertised as.
Sorry Charles but I have to disagree with you. I know that I am not a power user but I do use Logos everyday and prepare my weekly teaching (and gain much learning) using it facilities.
I have a 3 year old imac and a 4 year old mac book. On neither of these is Logos particularly slow. Not as snappy as some programs but not desperately slow either.
I know there are some that have real problems with the program but there are many who have a good experience of running Logos on their Macs.
As the program has developed there have been many threads that have helped deal with the issue of slowness. I seem to recall one thread that dropped a lot of people out of the 'Logos is Dog Slow' party when it was advised to check for corrupted Fonts. Admittedly this did slow the whole computer.
Again on the Font side one of the Font handling utilities did not sit well with Logos and removing that left a few less with problems.
More recently the 'Animated Icon' was found to be cause 'some' people to have slow start ups.
Logos is not Dog Slow for everyone it is Dog Slow for some. That is very annoying for them - and eventually Logos will get to the bottom of the problem.
On some computers with 4 gig of ram and a bog standard disc drive Logos does just fine - what we have to do is track down what is causing the problem with some on which it doesn't.
Also we must acknowledge that some who have swapped disc drives, bought SSDs etc are hobby enthusiasts who haven't had a problem but just wanted to see what the effect might be.
Logos is not Dog Slow for everyone; it is Dog Slow for some. That is very annoying for them - and eventually Logos will get to the bottom of the problem.
Working on performance issues is a high priority issue for everyone working on the Mac product (and for me, in particular). As many users have observed, version 4.2a had a number of improvements in this area; the next version will have even more.
I'd also like to take a moment to thank all of our forum users who jump into threads like these with useful tips for improving the experience in the meantime. I know that for some people, your help has been indispensable while we work on much-needed improvement. Your aid is very much appreciated.
I think the Vista to L4 comparison is hobbled. Vista put gingerbread over that of the user by default. Now if you open up L4 and elect to get all the standard panels to display information on a given text at once, you have agreed and chosen to do so. People assume that you should use Logos this way. And since this takes much longer, therefore L4 is slow.
This is madness!
You decide which panels should open. Make your own layout. For nearly a week I had just a couple of Bible texts and a commentary and BDAG. Can you say FAST? It surely was so.
Just because you are invited to the world's largest buffet doesn't mean you have to eat some of everything at one sitting. At the moment it's layed out. A sports car can only run its fastest if it travels one road. If it circles every block along the way it's not going to appear to be so quick.
Even if all the panels instantly loaded, are you really going to read them all the moment that they finish?
I have to disagree, Michael.
Logos 4 Mac is taking up to 30 seconds just to open, and even on advanced systems and with all the right settings it is easily taking 15 seconds. That's just ridiculous, everyone knows that, and that's just a very basic example (!) of what is going on with L4Mac when comparing it to other Mac software. Even the PC version is considerably slower than other complex software.
Of course, it would be much slower to do all the work with print books. That's not the point. No one's complaining about L4 having a hard time to open up 30 panels at once - the point is that, when it comes to performance, L4 is miles behind what other software is supposed and able to do given the current state of technology.
therefore L4 is slow.
L4 is not slow on my machine (that has double the requirements), it is painfully slow. L4 is the only program that goes black and states "Not Responding." When do I get this message, when I start L4 to a blank layout. When I click on search, when I delete a note, when I open the NRSV, when I run any of the reports, when I ...
You are correct when you say,
Working on performance issues is a high priority issue for everyone working on the Mac product
...while we work on much-needed improvement
I hope this is not just for the Mac product as I agree with Logos that there is "much needed improvement".
Regards,
Clinton
Logos 4 Mac is taking up to 30 seconds just to open, and even on advanced systems and with all the right settings it is easily taking 15 seconds. That's just ridiculous, everyone knows that,
That is strange Theolobias.
Just having run a test on my imac starting Garage Band and iphoto from Spotlight - I find that Logos takes just a few seconds more to open to the home page and most of those seconds are used up with the log on process necessary to populate the home page.
It does take a few seconds longer but it is far from being 'ridiculous'.
Mike, actually there might have been some improvements with the last updates, I was referring to L4Mac when I was using it some months ago. Anyway, this was nothing else than a beta test with paying customers back then. I just hope Logos will do things differently in the future. But reading the forums on a regular basis, I get the impression that there are still major issues with L4Mac.
I was referring to L4Mac when I was using it some months ago.
If you have not used L4 Mac in that time, you are comparing apples to oranges. It is very unfair of you to condemn a product that you have not used.
Jack, I was referring to the development of L4Mac from the beginning, so I can at least speak of L4Mac when it comes to the first three to four months. As far as I remember, already back then people were buying into Logos 4 because they were getting excited. However, what was following was a relatively long period in which they had to experience a program that was at most comparable to other programs in beta phase, although they payed for being able to really use it, not to do further development. That's what I was talking about - I cannot see what is unfair about that, particularly with regard to the note I made that there have been improvements in L4Mac since then.
Imagine buying a car, not because for having fun but because you're depending on having one, so you spend a lot of money. And even though the producer has advertised it as being the newest and coolest thing out there, what you happen to get is a tricycle. There might have been major improvements in the meantime, but that was not what you were spending money on in the first place and you were virtually forced to use something different. Enthusiasts for a specific brand might say it is "very unfair to condemn a product that you have not used" - I'd say having spent a considerable amount of money for something that didn't work as it was supposed to for months gives me every right to be at least a tiny bit upset.
I still love L4 for what it can do, but when it comes to performance, I think that even regarding the PC version there's still a lot of work that has to be done. And while reading the forums for L4Mac usage I really don't get the impression that Mac users are overall stoked ...
Dear Mike: The whole point is the program "does not respond the same on any two machines", so it running well for you makes no difference to the discussion about the "problem" other than to further prove the point.
Just for giggle and grins- install on two Macs, exactly the same, same everything, same set up, nothing different at all- the result will be - the program will not run the same on both.
Which leads me to think there is something wrong with the install coding or something in that line, perhaps with indexing, I sure do not know.
But there "has to be" something wrong, some error, some reason that explains why the program works well on one system, and not the other just like it.
This has not been, and I don't think it has become a "bash logos" thread.
However, again, it is just frustrating as can be to have people act like there is something wrong with us, who do not have your experience.
We are not talking about "subjective" issues, but issues of "real physical , repeatable problems".
With two panels open, nothing else, computers getting hot, fans going crazy, being told to "send in logs" crashes, more crashes, slow to load, stopping forever on a beach ball, things like this are not subjective things like "wish it was quicker", "seems slow".
These are "real" difficulties for folks, folks that have spent their money in good faith.
Telling a man with a broken leg- "well, mine works fine", usually does not help him with his leg.
I am so glad the program is not only usable, but works great, for many/most of you, - thrilled for you in fact.
It does not for me on a pretty new Mac, where everything else works fine and no problems with fonts, and everything turned off that can be turned off.
Sad isn't it, when we have to turn off the features to use the program.
Being told to turn off the features , sounds to me like being told: Yep, this car as excellent Air Conditioning! You just can't use it while your driving.
Blessings all.
Working on performance issues is a high priority issue for everyone working on the Mac product (and for me, in particular). As many users have observed, version 4.2a had a number of improvements in this area; the next version will have even more. I'd also like to take a moment to thank all of our forum users who jump into threads like these with useful tips for improving the experience in the meantime. I know that for some people, your help has been indispensable while we work on much-needed improvement. Your aid is very much appreciated.
Thanks for the update David. We all have different expectations of what "fast" or "slow" is, so along with different computers it doesn't make it easy to provide objective data.
However, its pretty obvious that there are a lot of frustrated users, and it is great to hear that you guys are working on it. Please let us know if we can help!
yes David: Thank you for letting people know it's being looked at and worked on.
Blessings.
Hi again Theolobias,
I have to agree with you that the move from Beta to Release was premature. There was, and I don't know why, considerable enthusiasm for the move from Beta testers.
However I paid up early in the Beta process, knowing that it was a Beta process and with my eyes wide open to the risks and consequences. I have actually enjoyed the process.
Just now I am not in the Beta channel because the risk v reward are too unbalanced.
May I suggest you give the latest versions of L4 a run and let us know your experiences.
This really is a strange forum - I have just come to this thread from one where the user is asking how to ditch the windows version from his machine as there is now no appreciable difference in speed between the two systems.
Hi Mark,
As soon as I'll be working on a Mac again, I will give L4Mac a try again. Right now I only have my Windows notebook.
still love L4 for what it can do, but when it comes to performance, I think that even regarding the PC version there's still a lot of work that has to be done.
I agree.
And while reading the forums for L4Mac usage I really don't get the impression that Mac users are overall stoked ...
Some are; some aren't. I normally use L4 Mac for my Bible Study. However, if I want to take many notes, I have to switch to L4 Win because the Notes feature in L4 Mac is close to being unusable.
Perhaps my perspective is different from yours, since I keep my installation on the Beta Channel for both Windows and Mac versions. I am pleased with the progress, but if I came onboard expecting a finished product, I may think otherwise. I have been riding this roller-coaster ever since Logos first announced that they would produce a Mac version (2005–2006?).
I am pleased with the progress, but if I came onboard expecting a finished product, I may think otherwise.
That's exactly the problem! Anyway, I'm glad things are working for you!
Blessings!
Being told to turn off the features , sounds to me like being told: Yep, this car as excellent Air Conditioning! You just can't use it while your driving. Blessings all.
[Y]
"The whole purpose of Logos (at least from what was marketed) was that the program put a wealth of resources at your fingertips, and saved a person significant time in Bible study. I'm frankly not seeing that. It's not simply a question of "six seconds to search your whole library" (which doesn't account for the vast amount of time necessary to sort through the hundreds or even thousands of meaningless "hits" to find what is useful... something I'd never have to do working with a physical library )... but what about accounting for all of the time and effort just to try to figure out how to make it work? I could far more easily and quickly just go to my book shelf and find what I need... and then get on with the task for which I was studying in the first place... ministering to people."
I understand your frustration... I use Photoshop CS4...same issues I have with Logos 4...The software is ahead of the machine. I am annoyed by it but am not investing in a newer machine at this time to get rid of the issue...The above quote tells me one thing for sure...You need to sit down an invest some time in learning how to search. I did this after my first Camp Logos. It is rare for me to get meaningless hits anymore. Have you been to Camp Logos? MAybe you could give an example of what you search for and the results...Would love to help direct you o the resources/tricks I have learned from.
Hi Christopher,
Yeah, I'd definitely agree I need some searching coaching. I don't want to hijack the thread... But here's a for-instance.... I have the Biblical Archaeology Review Collection... I also have the physical collection ... I was doing a Bible study about the Christmas story... wanted to highlight Mary and Joseph's walk to Bethlehem... and the possibility of their passing beneath the shadow of the Herodium... and the challenge of faith in believing that Mary's unborn child was the true king of the Jews... while walking by Herod's Herodium... which was at the time the second largest palace complex in the world. I knew BAR did a feature article on the site. So I made a collection of the BAR issues and searched for "Herodium". It pulled up tons of stuff... mostly worthless. Lots of stuff that was some unrelated footnote... some mention in a letter to the editor... some author bio note that mentions he excavated at this site, that site, some other place, and oh, yeah, Herodium. Over and over and over again. And just a pile of unuseful references.I just needed the main article from the issue that had the pic on the cover. I could have gone to my closet, looked through the magazines, and found what I needed in less than five minutes. In Logos, I had to open every reference until I found what I wanted... and of course, it was way down the list. It took a LOOOONG time. Is there a way to eliminate this kind of thing??
When looking in closet at stack of magazines, search criteria had story elements plus cover picture. Logos 4 has option to search Large Text (e.g. Herodium) plus proximity search: e.g. Herodium WITHIN 100 WORDS (Mary, Joseph, journey). If do a basic search of my Entire Library for Herodium, a Topics section is included (has twice as many entries as Large Text search). Searching Description for Herodium in Entire Library found an article about Ruth gathering grain at the foot of Herodium logosres:hlmnqsgdbbl;ref=Page.p_53;off=540
Apologies - unable to replicate. Installed Logos 4 Mac on a 27" iMac, followed by using Apple's DIsk Utility to copy partition to an external USB drive. Now using Logos 4.2a SR-2 on a 20" iMac with two user installations on internal drive and my user installation on an external USB drive. The 20" iMac has a 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor that is much slower than 2.8 GHz Intel Quad Core i7 in 27" iMac so overall responsiveness on 20" iMac is sluggish. While running Handbrake to process Logos videos for use on an iPad (resource intensive), opened a layout in Logos 4 that was very sluggish to open several floating windows and half dozen bibles (disk contention more than doubled time to open layout). Decided to postpone layout review until after video processing done.
Logos 4.2a SR-2 is usable on older 20" iMac (albeit sluggish compared to 27" iMac); dreaming of iMac and Mac Mini model refreshes later this year with 2nd generation Intel Core i series processors (especially i5 and i7) along with fast disk drives (e.g. RAID 0 striping, perhaps with Solid State Drives).
Three Logos 4 Mac menus can be irritating to use: File, Guides, and Layouts since they benefit from quick click to display menu (may take seconds) then left OR right click on menu items, which is quite different than historic Mac convention of click and hold mouse to drag for desired menu selection, then release mouse button. Watching someone else struggle to choose a saved layout helped me realize what had become natural (e.g. click and wait for menu, then right or left click menu item).
Knowing when to use some Logos 4 features can dramatically affect performance (on Mac's and PC's). For example, trying to scroll a Bible chapter (e.g. John 1) in an Exegetical Word by Word section ranges from sluggish slow to snail slow. Getting Started with Logos has Learning Logos section with Camp Logos effective link that includes having fewer resources and panels open at same time (after Camp Logos experience). Personally using more layouts with fewer resources open overall for usable Logos 4 performance on 2007 model iMac and 2008 model Windows laptop. Thankful 4 visual filters for Logos Greek Morphology display quickly on Mac and PC (when switching layouts do have to wait for highlighting to be applied).
Keep Smiling [:)]
Smile: Still sounds "exactly" like selling a guy a car, telling him "it's loaded"!
However, you can't use the features while driving.
If you want it to run well, efficiently, with good performance, you must: Turn off the air conditioning, add extra air to the ties, take out extra weight, perhaps back seats as well, wash and wax, extra wax, put tape over all cracks to avoid wind restrictions, use only high octane aircraft fuel, add a turbo, duel exhausts. Ok, now it will run well, but if you turn on air conditioning, play the stereo, use regular fuel- it will perform poorly.
Come on guys- we are grown ups.
Logos has some problems, they are working on them.
The reason they are working on them is because they are problems.
The "main reason" I have a Mac is I don't want to "work on my computer, have to tweek it" , I just want to do my work -on my computer. There is a difference.
Great thing about a Mac , I but it, I take it out of the box, I start it, I load my programs, I go to work.
I just purchased another Imac for a company I help care for, took it out of the box, turned it on, it found the network, I loaded the software, They went to work. Done.
I built many computers, I have changed out many, many sets of ram, video cards, over-clocked, trimmed operating systems, you name it.
Just as with racing cars, I have hopped up many computers and operating systems, I went through that stage.
But Missionaries and Pastors have other responsibilities, they just need to be able to turn it on, and go to work.
Lord have Mercy.
Apologies - desire to help use Logos Bible Software effectively.
By the way, remembered an expensive four wheel drive vehicle manufacturer's manual that included monitoring temperature gauge while driving, especially if towing a heavy trailer. If gauge too high, turning off air conditioning, slowing down, and turning on heater with windows down were recommended actions to avoid radiator or engine failure; driver decided what to do. Same vehicle needed premium fuel to keep V-8 engine from knocking during travel in Rocky Mountains. The expensive "loaded" vehicle had features (e.g. low range gearing) that needed to be used appropriately (e.g. low range not good while turning on dry pavement since could damage transmission and "buck" vehicle). To safely operate four wheel vehicle, prudent to know vehicle's capabilities and limitations (especially for off road use).
Logos has some problems, they are working on them. The reason they are working on them is because they are problems.
Based on past experience (during Logos 4 Mac Alpha pre-releases felt like opening a present every 2 weeks to experience what had been exposed for Bible Study use), looking forward to Logos 4 feature enhancements and performance optimizations on Mac & PC. Thankful Logos 4.2a SR-2 is the best Logos Bible Study software ever shipped for Mac; still amazed what can be used today [8-|]
The "main reason" I have a Mac is I don't want to "work on my computer, have to tweek it" , I just want to do my work -on my computer. There is a difference. Great thing about a Mac , I but it, I take it out of the box, I start it, I load my programs, I go to work.
Understand - for next computer purchase, hoping to buy another Mac; dreaming of iMac and Mac Mini model refreshes later this year with 2nd Generation Intel Core i5 or i7. Reading rumors about iMac refresh in early May.
Thankful Forum MVP & Pastor Mark Barnes created: Excellent Unofficial Logos 4 Training Videos - (watching all videos recommended) Tip: PC control key often becomes command key on Mac.
The first training video is about installation and indexing that typically take several hours. Hence recommendation for initial installation and indexing when not planning to use computer for hours. Observation: initial resource download time depends on internet connection capabilities.
Likewise Thankful for friendly forum discussions.
Logos 4 is a powerful Bible Study program where learning features and capabilities can take months of use – practice and perseverance produces powerful results.
Well actually,
Actually if you want your car to run fuel efficiently you..
Turn off the air conditioning, (I seem to remember that is a saving of about 5%)
add extra air to the ties, (there are significant fuel advantages to keeping the tyres correctly inflated)
take out extra weight, (boy the amount of fuel wasted because people carry unneeded items is huge)
perhaps back seats as well, wash and wax, extra wax, put tape over all cracks to avoid wind restrictions, (well if you really insist)
use only high octane aircraft fuel, (actually likely to be counter productive)
add a turbo, duel exhausts. (might help but not likely to be cost effective)
Ok, now it will run well, but if you turn on air conditioning, play the stereo, use regular fuel- it will perform poorly.
Ok, I get it.
Foolish to try Logos 4 mac on late 2009 macbook alum. 4 gig of ram.
Foolish to try Logos on current, stock, Macbook Pro 13".
Sorry, I did not understand this.
Ok, I get it. Foolish to try Logos 4 mac on late 2009 macbook alum. 4 gig of ram. Foolish to try Logos on current, stock, Macbook Pro 13". Sorry, I did not understand this.
I'm running a late 2009 MBP and Logos runs great. Yes, I spent $83 to upgrade my ram (actually, $63 with a $20 rebate from Newegg) - that's for 8gb. But, that wasn't so much for Logos as it was for all my programs. I run Mac Spaces with a 4x3 grid and generally have quite a few programs open at once. So, yes I needed the ram. But, running Logos by itself or even with just one or two programs open when I had 4gb of ram was still just fine.
I've been following this thread since the beginning and I'm really disappointed in where it's gone. It started out with an honest question, followed by honest and helpful feedback. Now it's become more of a thread of bitterness and hate. I wonder, how much have you naysayers spent on Logos? I've invested quite a bit so I want it to succeed. Do I wish it was better, faster, more powerful? Sure - but I wish that for all the programs I run. When people say that no other software program could survive on the market if it was released with problems like this, I beg to differ. Many other programs have done just that. One need only look at Antenna-Gate from the iPhone 4 release. It wasn't a beta release - it was a full release and it had some serious issues. People complained, sure. But Apple also worked on the issues and fixed them (just as I believe Logos is doing as they have claimed in this thread) and nobody can say the iPhone is a failure or that the market rejected it. One of the great features IMO about software programs is the updates that happen to them. It's like a little Christmas (without the Jesus) every time a new version is released. People expect software to be improved upon and they look forward to each improvement. Part of me even wonders if a program could be as "successful" in the long-term if it was released "fully-finished" or "as good as can be" from the start. Maybe so, but since rarely does any good software program fall into that category, I think it's fair to say Logos is not alone and should be given a chance.
As I've posted above, there are some things that the user can do to make the program run better. Some of these, yes, require you to make some adjustments to your computer. Running in 64-bit mode helps a ton and we can't fault Logos for Apple not turning that on by default. Adding ram if you're below 4gb can also help - again, don't fault Logos for having a computer that isn't up to today's standards. Instead, spend the $40 to buy 4gb of ram - after all, you're willing to spend hundreds on this software, right? Yes, it might take some adjustments to Logos to make it run more smoothly as well. Those are really user customizations. I'm sure some people would like every option that currently loads in the Passage Guide and the Exegetical Guide, but for most people it makes sense to customize. Personally I don't like software that I can't customize, and I'm thankful for the plethora of options Logos offers.
If you have a serious issue with the program and think the developers need to hear your new information, then by all means share it. That's how these programs get better. But just making snide or sarcastic comments doesn't help anyone. Which brings me back to my earlier question - how much have you guys really spent on Logos? If you've invested the hundreds (even thousands) that some of us have, wouldn't you want to help make this a better program by offering helpful feedback? To that point, wouldn't you want to spend 10 or 20 minutes making your investment pay off by applying a few tips?
Criticism is generally good - if it is in the spirit of helping one improve their work. But most of the complaints in this thread are not in that spirit - they are more along the lines of tearing people down. Hardly what I would call a Christian ethic. I wonder - if you had a good friend or family member who worked for Logos and spent hours and hours doing something they felt was meaningful, important and helpful for thousands of Christians across the land, would you still be so quick to offer your harsh words on a public forum? If so, I feel sorry for you - and for your friends/family. If not, well, I have to ask "and who is our neighbor?"
Again, my only complain is that people marginalize those with actual problems because " well, it works fine on my machine".
As I have said repeatedly:" Logos is having some issues, the programmers are working on it, they admit there are issues- thus, the issues are real, it is not the fault of the end user".
What bothers me to no end, is to marginalize the missionary who does not have time, money, resources, to tweak and modify a machine that meets all the advertised requirements, or, has an install that is not working correctly which is no fault of the end user, nor of the Mac platform.
I don't have a problem with the fact Logos has admitted to issues they are working on, that's not my point.
It is less than helpful to constantly hear everyone else should be fine because something is working on highly modified machines or some regular machines and installs.
The software tweek's, wiki and such are helpful, but should be noted as things one needs to do so Logos can run effectively now, "because of the known issues" .
It needs to be stated to these folks that the full feature set ( what is available now as such) cannot be fully utilized on normal, regular machines unless on can allow for the performance hits, crashes, lack of scrolling in certain areas etc.
They do not need to be made to feel something is wrong with them or their machine.
It is unusable for me in daily use, ok for occasional use, and for me, that's fine, I have recourse to other resources, whereas others do not.
Logos advertised something, people made decisions based on that, some, a great many, are having difficulties, they do not need to be marginalized , but instead, supported.
Last things they want to hear: "It works great for me', "just change out hard-drive and memory".
For many, many in Ministry, Logos is one of the heaviest investments they make.
Many are finding it hard to stay in ministry, Churches are taking huge financial hits, more Pastors bi-vocational now than anytime I have known of, more Churches closing, resources extremely tight for many.
So again, my concern was/is about the folks for whom this situation is already a real difficulty, are not wealthy, are not computer geeks, have limited resources, and just need to be about their Vocation of building up the body of Christ and expanding the Kingdom.
Chris, I really am sorry you feel that way... I have to agree with the posts that struggle with the fact that those of us who have been experiencing problems are strongly feeling somehow marginalized (as one poster termed it)... because "there must be something wrong with your machine"... "there must be something wrong with you as a user"... and now... "you must not have invested much into the software like the rest of us have (so, therefore, don't criticize)"...
Excuse me, but I have invested - literally - more than $10,000 in this program over the years. NOT including the hardware upgrades (solely) necessary to run it effectively. I am now in a position of needing to do so again, and have been discussing my concerns about doing so with others in this forum, which was, according to my understanding, the purpose of the forum. I have been investing in Logos from almost the start up of the company. To dismiss me as a "naysayer" is quite unjust... and would be if my investment had been "merely" $1000 or $100.No one wants the company to succeed any more than I do. That is precisely WHY I'm voicing the concerns.
I disagree with your other claims as well, and I think they lack a sensitivity to us and what we are trying to say. My greater concern, however, is that throughout your post, you also make many judgments about the character and motivation and intentions of those who are simply trying to be heard that 1) in our experience, the SOFTWARE has some problems; and that 2) it is getting to the point that further excessive investments in our time and resources are no longer seeming to be good stewardship to us, as we find it detracting rather than enhancing to our ministries... and that maybe Logos needs to reexamine its direction in a few areas. There was no intention of trying to be "snide", "sarcastic", or being "full of bitterness and hate", or seeking to "tear people down" or demonstrate an unChristian ethic as you claim in your post. Who is speaking uncharitably and unjustly here??? In none of the posts that I have read on this thread, have I seen anyone on either side of the issue question the heart, motives or integrity of anyone here, or their "christian ethic". Until now.
I regret that our posts have seemed to have been taken by you so personally... I am sure that has been no one's intention. And it is my firm belief that no one ever intended or has it in their hearts to diminish others. If I have in any way in any of my posts offended you or anyone else, you have my sincerest apologies and my strongest testimony that that was not my intent.
In light of your post, however, I believe that I will henceforth no longer comment on this or any of the other forums.
EmilyB,
I'm sorry if I offended you with my post. I was not trying to say that all criticism on this thread has been unduly harsh or unwarranted. Rather, it seems that some of it has. As I said in my post, criticism is good if it is in the spirit of helping one improve their work. Those of us that have invested money into the program (you included) want to see it succeed, and helpful criticism is a way of making that happen. Yes, I've been frustrated by the slowness of Logos at times - and I'm glad to see that the developers are taking notice - but I also am not just refusing to make adjustments myself so that the program does what I need it to in the mean time. I don't think it's quite fair to say that the 'investments in our time' are excessive to make this program run more smoothly - after all it took me less time to make those adjustments than it has to contribute to this thread.
Please don't take my post as wishing you to no longer contribute. I just want to see helpful contributions. Somtimes those mean raising valid concerns with the program so that the developers can work on them, sometimes it means adding insight for those of you who are yourselves developers, as you have done so well, and sometimes it means us help each other to make adjustments to our machines and the personalization of the software so we can all be more effective in the use of our time.
Perhaps my post was too harsh in its language - if so, I apologize. But, I also hope that we can use this thread and the other threads on this forum to further conversation rather than simply repeating frustrations that have already been voiced - which is where I felt some of the comments were heading in this thread.
Likewise longing for helpful contributions. As a Logos user, desire to help use Logos Bible Software effectively along with improvement suggestions. Thankful for many Logos 4 improvements already implemented plus looking forward to more. Also Thankful for David Mitchell's earlier response:
Logos is not Dog Slow for everyone; it is Dog Slow for some. That is very annoying for them - and eventually Logos will get to the bottom of the problem. Working on performance issues is a high priority issue for everyone working on the Mac product (and for me, in particular). As many users have observed, version 4.2a had a number of improvements in this area; the next version will have even more. I'd also like to take a moment to thank all of our forum users who jump into threads like these with useful tips for improving the experience in the meantime. I know that for some people, your help has been indispensable while we work on much-needed improvement. Your aid is very much appreciated.
While watching Logos Tutorial Video #4 – Searching, noticed “By Book” became “By Title” when “By Count” was added to Logos 4 (sort “By Book” results), a good improvement.
Also noticed Logos 4 PC Bible Search for camels in Top Bibles, when mouse hovers over grid box, verse pop-up appears, which is missing in Logos 4.2a SR-3 on Mac. Also noticed Mac mouse pointer does not change to hand when over Bible header (e.g. ESV), but clicking on Bible version does quickly change text in Grid display.
Clicking on Top Bibles to see other resources to search took a couple seconds on an older 2007 model iMac with 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo. In Bible Search on 2008 model laptop with Intel Core 2 Duo P8400 2.26 GHz processor, drop down menu feels quicker since noticed Top Bibles, All Bibles, and All Open Bibles appear quickly, then rest of drop-down menu appears later (overall about same on Mac & PC for all search drop down choices to appear on my older hardware).
For human interaction, wish Logos 4 drop down menus on Mac & PC would display in under one second (quick enough to not interrupt flow of thought).
Updated Feature Parity since some Logos 4 PC features are not yet available on Mac, which now has 7 bullets summarizing forum discussions. Also updated Logos 4 Mac wiki page What to Expect section with observation about three Logos 4 Mac menus being different than historical Mac conventions and Interested in Using Logos 4 Mac ? section, prompted by several thoughts expressed in this thread = Thanks to all for participation.
Good Post EmilyB.
As far as helpful contributions, I think many have tried to do just that, I know I have, in the past and recently, usually in a lighthearted manner with a little humor ( granted it may be dry).
I would think, and perhaps it's just me, but I would think those like EmilyB have already made the needed helpful contribution, they did so with their hard earned dollars.
Most did not pay those funds in order to be testers and tweaker's of software, but to use a product advertised as ready to be used, in that area, I would say they already made their contribution towards an agreed transaction.
If the consumer's hardware meets the specifications stated as required for the software, paid the fee for the software, then any contribution required on the part of the consumer, has been fully met.
The consumer is not required to be understanding or helpful to the development of the Software Companies Product.
Most did not pay those funds in order to be testers and tweaker's of software, but to use a product advertised as ready to be used, in that area, I would say they already made their contribution towards an agreed transaction. If the consumer's hardware meets the specifications stated as required for the software, paid the fee for the software, then any contribution required on the part of the consumer, has been fully met. The consumer is not required to be understanding or helpful to the development of the Software Companies Product.
I understand there are real issues involved here. I've never denied that nor intentionally degraded others because the program didn't work well for them as it does for me. (granted, my last post probably moved in that direction, but I was reacting to what I perceived was undue hostility. I'm sorry for any offense I caused). I still disagree that Logos is the only software to be released with problems - for you PC users, look at almost every Windows iteration. Software is complex and developers generally have a hard time knowing how software will run on all the different machines out there. Yes, Mac's are much more uniform than PC's, and yes the developers probably should have seen the speed issues in their own testing. But, my main point that I still hold to is that you've expressed your dissatisfaction and the developers have acknowledged that and agreed to work on it. Now, let's move beyond the complaints and try to help one another get the most out of our investments. To simply repeat complaints that have already been stated doesn't seem to help anyone.
Well, I am giving up on Logos, at least for the near future.
I cannot for the life of me understand why they have done things the way they have, other than for profit, and, I cannot understand why people here keep acting like it is our responsibility to help Logos with their product issues.
I have been through this before with another company, and the results were a disaster.
The more I read, the more I understand that Logos has a "track record" of not performing as advertised, yet they keep advertising and selling faulty product.
This is certainly not ethical business practices.
I hope they get it worked out, the potential is good, very good in fact.
But at this point, the whole thing is just a bit much for me.
Will check on progress from time to time.
Wish all of you the very best and, Thanks for listening to my struggles with this.
As it seems I have offended some, please know it was not my intention to do so and, I pray your forgiveness , I was just trying to be open and honest.
Grace and Peace.
G'day,
First of all, I love Logos4. I've been using it on my PC (3.16Ghz Deul Core, 4GB ram) for over a year, and my only complaint has been with the delay when typing notes. I've found it really snappy to use once it's loaded.
Recently I purchased a MacBook Air (11", 1.4Ghz, 2GB ram, 128GB HD). This is my first Mac. I am, (was?) a diehard PC guy Now, I know it's no powerhouse, not compared to my PC! But all the same, I'm disappointed with the performance of Logos4Mac. All my other apps are really snappy (MS Office:Mac), and is very responsive with everything I do on it, except for Logos4. Like, 3secs for the pop-up menu to appear? That's not slow. That's painful.
Then I heard more powereful Macs have the same problem. So just for kicks, I installed Windows XP via VirtualBox, and then Logos4PC on my Mac. To my astonishment, it actually ran smoother! Again, it wasn't as snappy as it is on my PC. It never would be. But it was noticably quicker.
I also have iStats so I can see what the Mac is doing. With Logos4Mac, the CPU usage is through the roof! But if I run Logos4PC via VirtualBox -> XP, the CPU usage is only around 25%.
Now, I'm no coder, but all this suggests to me something has gone wrong in the coding for Logos4Mac. I'd really like to see a new version of Logos4Mac built from the ground up.
In the meantime, I'll be using Logos4PC, on my Mac. [:S]
Jason;
Same here!
I've been using Logos 4 PC for my Mac via Parallels for some time now. It's MUCH better. Better GUI, more features and shortcuts, faster, less buggy. It looks better. It's got rollover. It doesn't have the location bar glitch, which annoys me way too much.
Logos needs something new in their programming department, badly. It's just a bizarre app in some ways. It's slower than it should be, no doubt.
But man, is it a great program! I've seen nothing like it, and the company is growing successfuly and debt-free.
(shrug)
The ironic thing is, Mac is so known for GUI and so forth - and in this case, Logos 4 PC is in so many ways a much nicer program.
have a good weekend
Jacques
It would be nice to have an update from Logos on how this is going. According to this thread they were working on performance improvements in March, so it would be nice to hear how those have gone...
David, can you provide an update for us on performance improvements to Logos for Mac?
Thanks!
Concur Logos 4 PC currently has more capabilities than Logos 4 Mac. While Logos 4.3 Beta cycle included bugginess, also Thankful for many Logos 4 Mac improvements, noted in wiki Mac and PC User Interface Differences => Feature Parity section.
Option: if running Logos 4 in PC virtual machine on Mac, then could install Logos 4 Mac Beta for comparison, wiki has Logos 4 Beta Program page with Beta program information and risks.
Thankful for Bob Pritchett's post on 12 May 2011 => What Logos development is doing that included:
Windows has more users than Mac, but Mac is behind and needs improvement, and it is gaining market share on the way to 50%. We consider it equally important to Windows, and already are at the point where some new work is Mac first, then ported to Windows.
and
P.S. Know a great software developer? Send them our way!
Does anyone know if the gestures are supposed to work on L4Mac?
I have a Magic Trackad
Logos for Mac doesn't use the Magic Trackpad in any special way, as far as I could find.
I just bought one however, and have been exploring! There's a great app called BetterTouchTool that let's you configure ALL KINDS of shortcuts, global or app specific.
Check it out. It's free. Use Macupdate.com to find it.
Logos for Mac doesn't use the Magic Trackpad in any special way, as far as I could find. I just bought one however, and have been exploring! There's a great app called BetterTouchTool that let's you configure ALL KINDS of shortcuts, global or app specific. Check it out. It's free. Use Macupdate.com to find it. Jacques
Thanks I am trying to have the keyboard shortcut to TOC display Shift+Cmd+c link to a gesture but it doesn't work for me. Have you managed to do that with BetterTouchTool? Interface is not that intuitive...
Yup, I just tried it works fine.
I find the interface to be very easy, but ugly.
Open the BTT preferences, select Trackpad / Magic Trackpad. Shortcuts can be set for Global use or per App specific. In this case, choose App specific by hitting the plus symbol within the far left section. Choose Logos in your applications folder and then in the center section choose Add new gesture. Choose then a Gesture such as 'Single Finger Bottom Tap Middle' (that's what I did for the test). Then go into the box for Custom Keyboard Shortcut and hit a quick Command Shift C.
That's it!
I must say, I absolutely have flipped out over using BTT with the Magic Trackpad. It's SO powerful! I've set up numerous global shortcuts and app specifics, it's quite powerful. I'm refining as I go..
If you are still having trouble setting, we can set up an iChat share screen session so I can show you literally.
have a great weekend
