Purchasing New Computer: Suggestions?

I plan on using my next Windows PC mostly for:

Sermon preparation: Logos; Word; PPT
Website updating: Dreamweaver
Recreation: TV tuner w/ Windows Media Center

Wanting to stay under $1,000 and Logos as my main app to run efficiently. ....what would you suggest? Also, has anyone done side-by-side Logos testing with similar hardware specs between Windows 32 vs. 64 bit OS?

Thanks,
Mitch

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Donovan R. Palmer

Wanting to stay under $1,000 and Logos as my main app to run efficiently. ....what would you suggest? Also, has anyone done side-by-side Logos testing with similar hardware specs between Windows 32 vs. 64 bit OS?

My inlaws just installed a Dell desktop and they got a lot of bang for buck for about that price range.

I know some of the Logos staff on here run 64 bit, but I'd guess that the performance is either the same or even a bit less due to Logos software being 32 bit. That said, one of the Logos staff might have some actual benchmarks for you to look at.

Mitch Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2781#Comment_2781

Thanks Donovan,

My inlaws just installed a Dell desktop

I was actually looking at this Dell the last couple days:

Dell - XPS Desktop with Intel® Core™2 Quad Processor
Model: X430-121B | SKU: 9156619
Intel® Core™2 Quad processor Q8300; 6GB DDR2 SDRAM; DVD±RW/CD-RW drive; 750GB hard drive; Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit with SP1 and TV tuner

George Somsel

I plan on using my next Windows PC mostly for:

Sermon preparation: Logos; Word; PPT

Website updating: Dreamweaver

Recreation: TV tuner w/ Windows Media Center

Wanting to stay under $1,000 and Logos as my main app to run efficiently. ....what would you suggest? Also, has anyone done side-by-side Logos testing with similar hardware specs between Windows 32 vs. 64 bit OS?

Thanks,
Mitch

Whether you can stay in that price range depends on what you want. If you want a laptop, you are going to pay more than for a desktop. You can still stay under $1000, but again that depends on what you want. I got a laptop as my new computer and I paid more than $1000, but it is a 17" model so that I can type comfortably (i.e., I didn't just get it for the screen) and has 6 Gb of memory as well as a 500 Gb HD. So, pick your poison !

Mitch Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2785#Comment_2785

If you want a laptop, you are going to pay more than for a desktop.

Desktop...got the lappy already [:D]

Alain Maashe

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2783#Comment_2783

For almost $1000 after tax, I would not buy the PC listed above,

The CPU is a Quad processor Q8300; it is decent but two generations behind the latest series (Q9XXX, and Core i7). More worrisome are the video card (the outdated ATI RADEON HD 3650) and the unnamed “Built-in TV tuner", an unnamed component is never a good sign, it generally means a low grade component with limited usefulness.

I build my own PCs and for a $1000, I could build 2 PCs with better specs than the Dell model which has only one year warranty

Another reason not to buy a dell is that they use proprietary hardware (difficult and expensive to replace once you one year warranty runs out) and they have few expansion slots, thus limiting the amount of cards and accessories you can add to the PC

what I recommend is for you to find a place that build custom computers and select the individual parts yourself (Fry's for example assembles the PC for you for around $80 with the parts you select from their store, Microcenter might be able to do the same) or you could find a place online.

This is especially important when it comes to the TV tuner ( digital or analog, single or dual turner allowing you to record two shows at one time and so on). TV Tuners are not created equal and a lot of research must go into selecting one: do you plan to record digital TV with an antenna (OTA), or from your cable line (QAM), is the decoding done at the level of hardware or software?

Alain

Mitch Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2790#Comment_2790

For almost $1000 after tax, I would not buy the PC listed above,

what I recommend is for you to find a place that build custom computers...

Alain,

You just gave me a wonderful "challenge" opportunity (I've built them in the past). That said, if you have the time I'll be happy to go out and buy the right pieces (this is where I plea ignorance because it has been a decade since I was really into the hardware specs). I plan on recording from a cable line. As for decoding from hardware or software... I have no idea (does that mean I've answered the question [;)]?). [Addendum: I do have a Samsung SyncMaster with a cable-in port so that I can watch cable via the monitor....but I may want to have the "TV" on and do other work simultaneously....thus the need to go through something like Windows Media Center]

Thanks again,
Mitch

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2791#Comment_2791

For almost $1000 after tax, I would not buy the PC listed above,

what I recommend is for you to find a place that build custom computers...

Alain,

You just gave me a wonderful "challenge" opportunity (I've built them in the past). That said, if you have the time I'll be happy to go out and buy the right pieces (this is where I plea ignorance because it has been a decade since I was really into the hardware specs). I plan on recording from a cable line. As for decoding from hardware or software... I have no idea (does that mean I've answered the question ?). [Addendum: I do have a Samsung SyncMaster with a cable-in port so that I can watch cable via the monitor....but I may want to have the "TV" on and do other work simultaneously....thus the need to go through something like Windows Media Center]

Thanks again,
Mitch

Today I don't think you will really save anything substantial by building your own though it will give you more control over what goes inside. That can be good if you know what you're doing; otherwise I would leave it to those who know. Remember, you may not need to replace your monitor (I have no idea what you have). You can buy a fairly decent desktop computer sans monitor for under $1000.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2790#Comment_2790

For almost $1000 after tax, I would not buy the PC listed above,

The CPU is a Quad processor Q8300; it is decent but two generations behind the latest series (Q9XXX, and Core i7). More worrisome are the video card (the outdated ATI RADEON HD 3650) and the unnamed “Built-in TV tuner", an unnamed component is never a good sign, it generally means a low grade component with limited usefulness.

I build my own PCs and for a $1000, I could build 2 PCs with better specs than the Dell model which has only one year warranty

Another reason not to buy a dell is that they use proprietary hardware (difficult and expensive to replace once you one year warranty runs out) and they have few expansion slots, thus limiting the amount of cards and accessories you can add to the PC

what I recommend is for you to find a place that build custom computers and select the individual parts yourself (Fry's for example assembles the PC for you for around $80 with the parts you select from their store, Microcenter might be able to do the same) or you could find a place online.

This is especially important when it comes to the TV tuner ( digital or analog, single or dual turner allowing you to record two shows at one time and so on). TV Tuners are not created equal and a lot of research must go into selecting one: do you plan to record digital TV with an antenna (OTA), or from your cable line (QAM), is the decoding done at the level of hardware or software?

Alain

Alain, yes these components are not the best, but Dave wants a computer for under $1000.

I've had both Dell and home-built computers. There are issues with both, but the Dell's I've had are much more reliable. The downside of a home-built computer is that not all components 'play well together.' Another issue is that there is typically no warranty at all on home built computers, and component warranties sometimes require sending the component in for repair, potentially making a computer worthless until the component is fixed.

Having a store build you a computer is not always a good option either. It depends on the store, the salesperson and the technical expertise of the one putting things together. We have a store-built computer at the church. It is anything but reliable. Since we have to open the case to determine which motherboard we have, what type of RAM, and whether that's a PCI or AGP slot for the video card (yes, it's an old system). The biggest thing to watch: keeping the system cool. The right fans in the right case (properly installed!), with the right proper power-supply is the key to this. Don't try to buy any of these as 'budget' components.

Dell does not have 'proprietary hardware' unless one buys one of those miniaturized desktops. For systems with full sized cases, they have reputable hardware manufacturers make products according to their specs. These are not 'proprietary' but are OEM specs. This means that it is easy to upgrade RAM, hard drives, video cards, etc. without problems -- as long as you buy the components that fit the OEM specs. I've done it many times. Since Dell is so well known, most component manufacturers' web sites include searching for items that meat the specs of your particular Dell model.

The number of expansion slots is directly related to which model you get, not whether the model is a Dell or not. Once again, those slim-line cases are very limited. But their full-sized cases offer expandability comparable to what you could build yourself.

With the TV tuner, I do agree with Alaine.The best ones these days are engineered in Germany.

Another factor to consider is sound processing. Most low-end Dells do not have a dedicated sound card. While I've not done TV-in with my computer, I do know that recording sound can be processor intensive. A dedicated TV card would probably do the trick, but if you're trying to do this with a standard video card with a TV-in connection, I would get a dedicated sound card too.

I would also consider one of the Studio XPS computers with the i7 processors, instead of the core 2 Quad.

The Dell I'm writing from is about 6 years old. It has stood the test of time. I just bought another one (my 4th Dell), and my philosophy is buy a little more than I need right now and save more money in the long run. You might find it more economical to spend another $200-$500 to get something that would last you another couple of years.

As far as running LDLS goes, the setup you've selected should run it very well. We'll see what the specs for version 4 will be.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2781#Comment_2781

Wanting to stay under $1,000 and Logos as my main app to run efficiently. ....what would you suggest? Also, has anyone done side-by-side Logos testing with similar hardware specs between Windows 32 vs. 64 bit OS?

My inlaws just installed a Dell desktop and they got a lot of bang for buck for about that price range.

I know some of the Logos staff on here run 64 bit, but I'd guess that the performance is either the same or even a bit less due to Logos software being 32 bit. That said, one of the Logos staff might have some actual benchmarks for you to look at.

I am very interested in any such benchmarks for running LOGOS on a 64-bit operating system. I am planning on upgrading that direction just for the higher RAM ceiling. In the old days we would always get the biggest bang for the buck by maxing out the RAM. I haven't kept up with the new generation of hardware because 32-bit XP has worked well for me. Only noticeable slowdowns are when I do a global search. What are the ideal hardware specs you would recommend for happy LOGOS use? (Just generic specs.) Will Windows 7 improve performance? I'd prefer to leapfrog Vista.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2799#Comment_2799

I've had both Dell and home-built computers. There are issues with both, but the Dell's I've had are much more reliable. The downside of a home-built computer is that not all components 'play well together.' Another issue is that there is typically no warranty at all on home built computers, and component warranties sometimes require sending the component in for repair, potentially making a computer worthless until the component is fixed.

One of the good things about Dell is that they have such a large customer base. So if there is a bug in a driver, there's a lot of people who replicate the problem and therefore a greater chance of it getting fixed. This means that the drivers in Dell computers probably "mature" faster than you would see in computer companies that have a smaller customer base.

Mitch Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2805#Comment_2805

Good feedback everyone....I have benefited from the pros/cons of building/purchasing. I'm comfortable with Dell (overall).

The most pertinent information I could benefit from are the actual specs for sub $1,000: with the following wants:

Windows 7 - I'm guessing 64 so I can have a higher RAM ceiling...performance boost with Logos 4.x.
TV Tuner. ANY RECOMMENDATIONS? I have "Germany" but brand names would be most helpful.
reputable HD (I can swap out if needed)
Dedicated video card
DD2 vs. DD3 RAM/price performace.... with use of Logos

Thanks again all...you've already been most helpful,
Mitch

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2805#Comment_2805

I've had both Dell and home-built computers. There are issues with both, but the Dell's I've had are much more reliable. The downside of a home-built computer is that not all components 'play well together.' Another issue is that there is typically no warranty at all on home built computers, and component warranties sometimes require sending the component in for repair, potentially making a computer worthless until the component is fixed.

One of the good things about Dell is that they have such a large customer base. So if there is a bug in a driver, there's a lot of people who replicate the problem and therefore a greater chance of it getting fixed. This means that the drivers in Dell computers probably "mature" faster than you would see in computer companies that have a smaller customer base.

I have a few Dell computers in the house and are generally pleased with
them. I have LOTS of HP computers (not Compaq branded) and I am VERY
happy with this company. I believe the reasons you cite for Dell's
success are also applicable to why HP is reliable and "matured" in
the industry. I used to build my own machines years ago and loved the challenge of configuring it so everything would work. Nowadays it is all about the software I am running and I find it better to leave the compatibility issues for the pros who face them daily. Richard made a good suggestion above when he said buy a little more than you need and it will be more economical in the long run. It would be nice if Bob Pritchett could suggest what he would recommend as the minimum specs and the ideal specs for purchasing a new computer if one were buying for a theoretical, Super-Slick, soon-to-be-released, Bible Study Software. With so many LOGOS users buying new hardware soon it would be a tradgedy for someone to fall short of the ideal system.

Alain Maashe

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2799#Comment_2799

George,

I just build two systems in the past month will high end components, they were half the price of anything sold in stores or online (one of them being a quad core Q9400 with a ATI HD 4890 video card)

One just needs to know where to buy and how to take advantage of sales, rebates, and so on.

Richard,

I agree that building a PC has drawbacks, the biggest being that you become you own customer support. However, if you know what you are doing, this becomes an advantage since support becomes available 24/7 and never expires

The many systems I have built have been generally more reliable that the PCs I used to buy from Dell, Gateway, Compaq, and so on. Even more importantly in light of the fact that I overclock my PCs (my Core 2 Q9400 2.66 Ghz runs now at 3.2 Ghz and is faster than a regular Core i7 920).

You do not need to open the case to find details about you components (i.e. ram, video cards, and so on),a software like Everest from Lavalys gives you more detail info that what you can see by opening the case short of looking at the product’s manual itself

I do not want to get into semantics with the difference between 'proprietary parts' and what you call “OEM specs” but Dell used to be infamous for using proprietary hardware. I used to work in a computer lab with all Dell desktops, I would know.

It is true that Dell has been trying to get away from it but it is still something to keep in mind (i.e. finding a replacement part might not be as easy as going to a store like BestBuy or Fry’s)

As far as expansion slots/ HD are concerned, I was not implying that the number of expansion slots is determined by the manufacturer (which would not make much sense), what I meant is that most of the low end – to mid range PCs do not usually have an abundance of free slots (the model Mitch mentioned only has 2 PCU slots total and it is not clear what is free and what is not

If I build a computer, I would not buy a Core i7 system now because it is overpriced like all new technologies. The sweet spot is found in the core 2 Quad Q9xxx series that can be found at bargain price and with an acceptable performance difference between them and the only kind of “affordable” core i7 which is the 920.

With the core i7, you not only need a new processor, but also new and more expensive ram (DDR3) and a new motherboard

the bottom line is this: if you are knowledgeable enough to build your own PC’s, it would be throwing you money away not to do so and not get better components that are suited for your specific needs

this is really a no brainer

if you are not knowledgeable enough, this becomes a little tricky. Having your computer built in a specialized PC store is an option if you can also get an extended warranty (lasting at least two to three years).

a one year warranty is a joke (the Dell system for Bestbuy only has one year) because many of the troubles you will encounter show up after a year

it is even better to buy direct from Dell than to get the system from Bestbuy

Bestbuy seems to want to offload old technology

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2807#Comment_2807

Good feedback everyone....I have benefited from the pros/cons of building/purchasing. I'm comfortable with Dell (overall).

The most pertinent information I could benefit from are the actual specs for sub $1,000: with the following wants:

Windows 7 - I'm guessing 64 so I can have a higher RAM ceiling...performance boost with Logos 4.x.

TV Tuner. ANY RECOMMENDATIONS? I have "Germany" but brand names would be most helpful.

reputable HD (I can swap out if needed)

Dedicated video card

DD2 vs. DD3 RAM/price performace.... with use of Logos

Thanks again all...you've already been most helpful,
Mitch

They're rolling out Windows 7 Oct 22. I understand that some mfgs are offering a free upgrade. I prepurchased Windows 7 and got it for about $50.00 so you might consider your options on this item.

Alain Maashe

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2807#Comment_2807

Good feedback everyone....I have benefited from the pros/cons of building/purchasing. I'm comfortable with Dell (overall).

The most pertinent information I could benefit from are the actual specs for sub $1,000: with the following wants:

Windows 7 - I'm guessing 64 so I can have a higher RAM ceiling...performance boost with Logos 4.x.

TV Tuner. ANY RECOMMENDATIONS? I have "Germany" but brand names would be most helpful.

reputable HD (I can swap out if needed)

Dedicated video card

DD2 vs. DD3 RAM/price performace.... with use of Logos

Thanks again all...you've already been most helpful,
Mitch

When it comes to memory , it is important to differentiate between real needs and the hype. In most cases, you do not need more than the maximum 3.5 gig of ram allowed by 32 bit OSes

If you are doing intensive image or video processing then some application would benefit from more memory, if not, it does you little good

See the article below

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/memory-module-upgrade,2264.html

The issue between DDR2 versus DDR3 is more complex that just what can of memory to get (important to keep in mind, most motherboards do not support both and if you go the core i7 route, you have no choice but to go DDR3). What determines the amount of bandwidth you get is influenced by the motherboard and the specific type of chipsets used. I would not worry too much about DDR2 versus DDR3 since the performance difference is affected by factors that you cannot control for the most part when you buy a system from a manufacturer. (Home builder have more control over that and can maximize each component ). The performance difference is negligible in most cases

See the link below

http://anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2989&p=1

The best TV tuner are from Hauppage (a US company), most recommend the WinTV-HVR-2250 because it gives you dual tuners that are analog and digital and as such are future proof
http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hvr2250.htm
if the price is too steep, they have models with less features at a cheaper price (never buy from the manufacturer’s website)
When it comes to Logos. The two most important things are the hard drive and the processor speed
the best single hard drive outside of specialized solution like SCSI, is the Western digital raptor at 10000 rpm (better than investing in memory, this is where you want to spend the money in anything)
one could also choose a RAID configuration for even faster speed
but I believe this to be an overkill since logos is changing the libronix engine to be more like what Bibleworks has when it comes to speed
As such, a good 7200 rpm hard drive with a lot of space should do
A dedicated video card should be from ATI HD 45XX and above they have the best price/performance in the market and will handle HD video decoding very well (no gaming unless you go for the HD 48xx series). The advantage with AT HD 4XXX series is that it comes with audio and video HDMI

Mitch Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2812#Comment_2812

They're rolling out Windows 7 Oct 22. I understand that some mfgs are offering a free upgrade. I prepurchased Windows 7 and got it for about $50.00 so you might consider your options on this item.

Got it a couple weeks ago...however, thanks for the headsup.

Dave Hooton

has anyone done side-by-side Logos testing with similar hardware specs between Windows 32 vs. 64 bit OS?

Benchmarks are a little complex with a number of variables that affect Libronix performance like IE6 vs IE7 vs IE8, memory and HD speed. But I have compared 32-bit Vista vs 64-bit Win 7 Beta with IE8 beta on my laptop with 2.0 GHz Core2 Duo T7200 (4 MB L2), 2 GB memory, 160GB 5400 RPM HDD. Win7 was slower in Search ops but roughly the same or faster with reports like Passage Guide and Bible Word Study. Slightly disappointing but I would still recommend a final Windows 7 64-bit with at least 4 GB of memory on an "older generation" quad core processor!

We know that Libronix v4 is based on .NET 3.x and it will be inherently faster than anything based on IE, so going with the latest Windows OS and 64-bit will not be an issue. Logos may also offer a 64-bit version!

Mitch Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2830#Comment_2830

Thanks Dave....much appreciated information.

Jim Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2807#Comment_2807

reputable HD (I can swap out if needed)

Hi, Mitch

I don't know if you still want more advice ... asking a question like this on almost ANY forum (regardless of forum's official focus) tends to generate lots of feedback, and no few product-specific opinions.

One thing that has NOT been discussed in any detail yet is to my mind very relevant to the use of Libronix. That is, the speed of the hard-drive access.

When you are dealing with multi-file database applications (and L is multi-multi-file, so to speak!), then the BOTTLENECK of many operations, such as searches across lots of books, is not related to the OS or to the chip or even (primarily) to the RAM, but rather to the hard drive and it's interface with the computer's "bus" (the pipe that all the data flows thru, between the components of the computer. Typically a hard-drives net throughput speed is only 5-10% of the computer's bus speed. This is an important "bottleneck" for some software.

The "access" time of the drive involves a lot of factors ... how big the files are, whether the successive files are continguously stored, what other stuff is going on, whether the data files are separate from places where "temp" (work) files are stored, yadda yadda. But, the bottom line is ... if the application needs to rapidly access a bunch of files that scattered around, then your Hard Drive access speed needs to be optimized.

Depending on how the application is written, adding extra RAM can help with this, for some kinds of activities. If the application is using the same files over and over, and if it (or the OS) is smart enough to upload the files from the HD to RAM, then things go really fast. However, most app's don't do this ... and I'm pretty sure that L doesn't, at least for "general" resources. So, if you like to search through lots of books for topical information, or access linked Bibles and lexicons simultaneously in tabs (my favored approach), then extra RAM (beyond a certain point) doesn't help too much.

The solution is to soup up your HD access. This is VERY inexpensive to do, nowadays ... but most folks (including department-store computer sales people) do not fully understand it - or they don't know how to properly implement it. I've done a lot of study on this - I'm no expert but hopefully what I've learned will help you and others.

First of all - the price tag for what I'm suggesting is less than $400. You could do a "beefier" approach than that, which might increase the price a hundred dollars more, but $400 should do nicely. Secondly - this is for desktops. Thirdly - it does not matter what kind of machine or OS you are running.

Solution: set up a drive-D RAID-5 array, using a 32-bit slot controller and three or four hard drives with 32meg buffers, and relocate your Libronix Resources directory to that drive. That's it, in a nutshell. The controllers cost about $150 from Fry's or Microcenter ... Rocket RAID is both costeffective and very well thought-of. Hard drives are incredibly cheap these days - one added benefit to this approach is that you get a truly huge amount of storage capacity out of it. I just bought eleven HD's (I'm setting up two very powerful systems) from Fry's and Microcenter for about $70 apiece ... these were all Western Digital and Maxtor SATAII/300 drives with 750gig and 32meg buffers.

It's important to get Hard Drives with 32meg buffers to maximize speed - most drives sold today have 16meg. You can buy 640g and 750g and 1T, 2T, 3T drives with 32meg buffers, almost anywhere. The 640's are avail in "green" versions that use small amounts of power when idling, if that's important to you. Unless you are storing a huge video library on HD (unlikely, since copyrighted DVD's don't xfer), you don't need multiple 1T, 2T or 3T drives ... and the best price-points are in 640 and 750 now, anyway. 1T is also cost effective - they have 32m buffered 1T's for about $110 or so.

It's important to use RAID-5, not just RAID-0 or RAID-1. A good explanation of the differences is here (click on the "click to play" button to see what's going on): http://support.dell.com/support/topics/global.aspx/support/entvideos/raid?s=gen . Although many motherboards are capable of RAID-0 and RAID-1, most do not have onboard RAID-5, and even if they do, it's better to use a separate RAID controller card than the motherboard RAID. The reasons for this get sort of technical - nutshell is that it's faster and cleaner. Use your onboard controller for your Drive C, and put your programs on that drive (NOT the "Resource" folder, though). Another issue with RAID controllers is what "open slots" you have available on your machine. This is confusing, in itself, because the "longer" slots are not necessarily "faster". From slowest to fastest: PCI, PCI-X, PCIexpress-x1, PCIe-x2, PCIe-x4, PCIe-x8 ... note that PCI-X and PCIe-x1 are essentially the same speed. The PCI and PCI-X slots are usually WHITE colored, and the PCIexpress are BLACK. The white PCI's (slowest) are actually LONGER than the PCIe-x1, x2(rare), and x4 slots. White PCI-X slots are a bit longer than PCIe-x8 slots. PCIe-x1 slots are little tiny black things ... just keep in mind that they carry data just as fast as the much longer white PCI-X slots. PCIx-x8's are usually one per machine, and used by video-monitor cards. I believe that x16's are also available, but they wouldn't likely be open on your board (they'd be for HIGH end gaming video).

Here's what you need to know about the slots: the PCI-X and PCIe-x1 both offer MORE than adequate bandwidth for a 4-drive RAID-5 array. If you got an 8-drive RAID card, then a PCIe-x4 would offer some benefit over an x1. It's (usually) OK to use an x4 slot with an x1 card in it, by the way. The only benefit of the PCIx-x1 over the PCI-X is that in some motherboards (for example many of Dell's), the PCIe cards interact more directly with the bus than the PCI-X does. But those differences are very small.

. . . SELAH . . . I know this is getting sort of complex but since most non-geeky salespeople don't understand it (yet they pretend to), it's important for you to know the real deal.

So, first check what available slots you have in your computer. If you have several PCI-X's (long white guys), you might opt for a controller that uses one of those, since most new cards that come out will be PCIe. You should probably try to leave at least one PCI or PCI-X slot free for future needs. If you have several PCIe's (short-medium black guys), try to reserve the x4's and up for things like extra video cards. I'd say that the best choice is to use a PCIe-x1 if available. Make a list, &/or take a clear snapshot of your board's slots before going to the store, and get a salesperson that KNOWS what each one of them is ... if they seem hesitant, IGNORE what they say and ask for a supervisor (or trust this letter :~)

Make sure the controller supports SATA drives (or SAS drives). I strongly suggest RocketRAID brand. It comes with extra cables and instructions for setup.

Setting up a RAID array is done before formatting ... once it's set up, it looks like a regular drive to your software.

Once you've got it in place, reset the Tools > Options > General > Resource Paths in Libronix to include a drive-path to Resources that is on your new "D" (raid5) drive. I'd suggest you just put it in with the other "user" based Libronix stuff in My Documents, which should ALSO be on drive D. Delete the path to drive C. Shut down Libronix. Now, COPY the entire Resources folder from Program Files \ Libronix DLS \ Resources to your Drive D location. Make sure the copy process went correctly - right-click>Properties on the orig and final folders to see if the space and #files are the same. Now, DELETE ALL THE FILES in the drive-C Resources folder. Restart Libronix, and WAIT for it to re-discover the resources. Note: the reason you deleted both the path to drive C and the files in the folder is to assure that L looks in the FAST drive for the files ... and to assure that any later add-on resources get stored to the right place.

That's it!

If you want to be really "geeky" about it, then do some "time trials" before and after this change. That is, pick a word or phrase, and tell Libronix to "Search ALL unlocked Resources" for that phrase. Do it for 2-3 words or phrases ... pick a common single word like "love" (a gazillion hits), a common phrase like "love of God", and a less-common phrase like "covenant theology" (or whatever). Use a stopwatch to TIME EACH SEARCH. Make sure nothing else is happening on your machine at the same time. Record the results. Then, after installing your RAID5 drive and moving resources to it, REPEAT the tests and time them. Then you can puff out your chest (like a REAL geek ;~) and report to us on the Forum how well it worked.

Jim Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2854#Comment_2854

set up a drive-D ... and relocate your Libronix Resources directory to that drive. . . . reset the Tools > Options > General > Resource Paths in Libronix to include a drive-path to Resources that is on your new "D" (raid5) drive. I'd suggest you just put it in with the other "user" based Libronix stuff in My Documents, which should ALSO be on drive D. Delete the path to drive C. Shut down Libronix. Now, COPY the entire Resources folder from Program Files \ Libronix DLS \ Resources to your Drive D location. Make sure the copy process went correctly - right-click>Properties on the orig and final folders to see if the space and #files are the same. Now, DELETE ALL THE FILES in the drive-C Resources folder. Restart Libronix, and WAIT for it to re-discover the resources. Note: the reason you deleted both the path to drive C and the files in the folder is to assure that L looks in the FAST drive for the files ... and to assure that any later add-on resources get stored to the right place . . .

CORRECTION / MODIFICATION to the prior post. The post is correct, BUT it did leave out one additional piece of equipment you'd need, to set up a Drive D with RAID 5. You'll need to buy a BOX to put the drives in, since you probably don't have enough open "bays" inside your computer to accomodate 3-4 MORE drives in addition to your existing drive C. This "box" is called a BACKPLANE ... there are many brands available, most are generic from China or Thailand. They provide slots for the drives, connectors, and cooling fans. They're nice and small ... in fact, the 4/5-slot variety can usually be fit into a 3-bay opening of your computer, replacing the original mouting for the DVD and CD drives, etc. And you probably can mount your DVD drive in one of the bays of the backplane. So, technically, IF you want to mess with it, you can put the extra HD's in your machine. However, I put my backplane alongside the computer, so that it doesn't get too hot inside the CPU box. A decent backplane can be found for less than $100 ... anything over $150 is a rip-off.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO MESS WITH A BACKPLANE, and you have room for three HD's INSIDE your computer (most desktops do), then there is another alternative. Instead of building a separate drive D for your RAID5 array, you can build a Drive C RAID array, and put everything on it. This is not as elegant as the Drive D approach, and is a bit slower, but not much. It saves you the extra money for the backplane, and for a drive C HD. (that is, if you're buying a new machine and you had your choice of HD's for C anyways.

Downside: you will have to rebuild your operating system and reinstall all your software on the new RAID 5 drive C. This is a pain, even if you know what you're doing. If you'd like to go this route, I strongly recommend that you buy your machine from someone who will do all this for you, incl initial installation of the OS and software on your RAID'd drive C. MAKE SURE THEY USE A SEPARATE RAID CONTROLLER CARD, not the motherboard. Dell does this ... you'll probably need their small-business division. Make sure they use drives with 32meg buffers.

The main application where it is important to separate the drive into C vs D, where C has your programs and D has your data, is for video capture. That is, if you are live-streaming a video feed to your hard drive and you don't want to drop frames, it's important that the drive you are streaming TO runs off a different controller than the drive the programs and temporary files are on. This is part of what I do - that's why I originally described the drive-D approach. Also, it's a LOT easier to retrofit a machine to add a RAID drive D than to rebuild your drive C.

OK I think I've covered this subject pretty thoroughly. I hope some of you find it useful!

Mitch Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2854#Comment_2854

Jim,

I can't thank you enough for the kind/thorough reply. I appreciate all the research/work you have already put in to getting the most out of how Libronix is used with the PC. Just one small favor to ask...since you seem the type to answer accordingly. [:D]

If you had a $1,000 budget for a new PC + accessories (tax included at 7%) what would you specifically purchase? Would you purchase a $500 computer (w/out monitor) and the other HDs, etc.? What I would do (the easy way out so I don't have to hurt my brain cells too much) is take your - specific brand/model - information and make the purchases accordingly.

As for doing my own geeky tests....I have no desire...I'm sure I'll be able to quantitatively note the difference with what I currently have with the new machine. Currently, I run Logos of the C Drive and access the resources off the D Drive (used only for Logos Books).

Thanks again,
Mitch

Jim Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2857#Comment_2857

Hi, Mitch:

Well, you've already gotten some answers to this, so I suppose I'll weigh in on some things that have already been suggested.

First, re the "newest generation" of chips (Corei7, etc) with their required "new generation" of RAM (DDR3 vs DDR2) ... this is what I refer to as "bleeding edge" ... the stuff is very new and the value-to-price ratios are low (ie, "poor"). You do not need the extra capabilities offered by these new chips, and you do not WANT to pay for the RAM to go with them. UNLESS you are gaming or just want a "goshwhatta" machine. If your budget is $1000, forget it :~)

Comparison (I just called Dell to make sure) ... to add 8g of DDR3 RAM to one of their new boxes, it costs about $450 extra. However, I just purchased (from Dell) 8g of DDR2 RAM ... the FANCY kind, with ECC and fully buffered ... for only $185. Sure it was "slower" ... about half the bus-speed of the DDR3. However, remember what I wrote in the prior posts ... the bottleneck is NOT your bus, it's your hard-drive access. Also, the extra "horsepower" of the i7 chips just is not necessary for Libronix or other typical non-gaming app's ... unless you're running a server with a lot of people on it at once.

I recommend that you consider buying a refurbished Dell computer - these can be had for a VERY low price, and if you contact Dell you can probably buy a full Dell 24hr warrantee after the fact. Here's a site that you should check out: http://www.hcditrading.com/?gclid=CJGIqrzgz5kCFQEhDQodDxhnlg

Re the other details:

1. Dual core is advisable, Quad core is probably overkill but no harm if cheap AND if the RAM is "pooled" (this is typical). I prefer Intel chipsets just because there's no question as to compatibility with software ... but some people love AMD. I frankly think that unless you're building your own machine it's no big deal.

2. L2 cache is just as important as clock speed on chips ... I'd recommend absolutely no less than 1gig PER CORE ... ie a dual-core chip should have 2gig of L2 cache. Long explanation to this ... yes, it is "RAM" but NO, it's not the same as the "RAM" you can add to later.

3. 32bit vs 64bit: I own both kinds of machines ... still running XP (and XP64) on them - about to install Win7 32 and 64 on them in a dual-boot config. I skipped Vista, and I'm GLAD that I did. If you buy refurbished Dell's it's EASY to get them with XP. Get XP Pro (vs Home) if possible. If it's a 64-bit machiine, you can run it in 32 bit mode, but if you can get one with XP64 already installed, with drivers, then go for it. Again, if you get Dell, it's easy to get drivers for most cards you might add later, that are compatible with the machine and the card and the OS. Three years ago I would have told you to forget 64bit ... but today, I'd say that you'd be wise to get 64bit. More and more software is coming out with 64bit compilation options. The main reason to get 64bit is that it allows you to address more RAM than 32 bit (see below re RAM). 32bit is limited to about 3.5g RAM ... 64bit allows up to 32g ram. And 128-bit is not terribly far away ... several terabytes are possible. IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE, if the program is compiled for 64-bit. That is a VERY EASY thing for a software developer to do, btw ... just throw one config switch, rebuild the package, and it's done. Afaik L has not yet offered this option, and I'm very disappointed in them for not doing so, since it is so easy. OTOH, reprogramming to fully utilize the multithreading capabilities of the multi-core processors is a HUGE task. Btw, I speak as a programmer with 40+ years of experience.

4. RAM requirements vary depending on software, OS, and how you use the machine. If you use Vista or Win7, plan on getting an extra 1-2gig of RAM *solely* for the OS (compared to XP). In addition to that, I'd say a minimum of 1G per core. So, a dual-core Vista or Win7 machine should imho have at least 4gig of RAM as a "good-functioning" minimum. As long as you stick to DDR2 technology, THE RAM IS CHEAP. If you get 32-bit machine, you might as well max out the RAM at 4g (it will use 3.5 of that). If you get a 64-bit machine, then try to get a small number of big-capacity DIMM's rather than a lot of small dimm's. It's more expensive this way, BUT it means that you have ROOM (ie extra unused DIMM slots) for expansion in the future without throwing away your existing DIMM's (painful). Most refurb machines have 4 DIMM slots ... if so, and if you have a 64-bit OS, I suggest you get 2@ 4G dimms. If they are "typical" dimms (non-ECC, not fully buffered), you can probably buy them for around $100 total. That will leave you two open slots to add more in the future ... and the dimms will get cheaper ... I'll betcha in a year you could buy two 8g dimms for about $100.

5. I've owned TWO Hauppauge TV/video cards - both are analog. Send me your address and $10 for hassle and shipping, and I'll mail one of them to you with the setup disks, etc. Pro: they are better than any other brand, period. Cons: they are by nature "persnickety" to set up, and possibly can conflict with display drivers. Depending on your PC's bus architecture, and what slot you plug them in to, they may fight for resources that you'd rather apply elsewhere ... remember ... they are passing VIDEO bandwidth over your bus. I strongly recommend you consider getting a separate TV, and if you want to record from it, just buy an I/O card that supports SVid or whatever. If you want HIGH quality recording of HD-cable stuff, then I suggest you get a dedicated TiVo-type box or a separate computer optimized for that. Or, just TURN OFF THE TV! (that's my strongest recommendation - and the ONLY one with a spiritual component to it).

6. Bus speed: anything 667Mhz and up is OK for your purposes. Keep in mind the story I told about the RAID array. Even with fast individual SATA drives that have 32m buffers, and a RAID5 running four drives together, you'll be hard-pressed to utilize even half of that bus speed on a continuous streaming basis. As I said, the HD's are the bottleneck.

7. Warrantee - GET ONE. Unless you are a doityourself kinda guy, and still have a lot of hair that you can do without :~) This is why I like Dell. All my machines for the past ten years have been Dell. They offer an excellent warrantee, for a reasonable price. You get 24-hour service on-site. That is, if you have a prob, you call them, patiently put up with about an hour of questions, then they send the replacement parts overnight direct to the service guy, and he shows up at your door 24 hours or less from the time of the call. It works - I've used it several times. I always buy the longest warrantee extensions I can, and I've never regretted it.

8. Monitors - GET TWO. Most decent video cards today offer dual ports. It really doesn't matter much if they are 15-pin or DVI. You'll want about 64 meg of RAM on the card for each monitor, unless you are gaming or are running BOTH in highest-color and 1920x1200 resolution at the same time ... go with 128meg apiece in that case. Actually, I've inflated these numbers about 2x ... you could use less, but likely new software will appear that will make use of the extra memory. DO NOT get cards that SHARE your system memory. This is important. It bogs everything else down.

9. Network - not critical, but I'd advise you get a 1Gig card if you have a choice. Easy to change later, though. This can make internet performance more snappy if you're already paying for a high-bandwidth connection, and if several computers are running off that same connection through a router. Of course the router needs to be 1G to feed it ... but you can upgrade either piece, later on. This is VERY useful if you often copy large files (or do backups) from one machine to another.

10. Get someone to help you set up a DUAL BOOT capability on your machine. Run XP or XP64 (not vista) in one partition, and load Win7 RC in the other. You can get the RC (release candidate) for FREE from Microsoft ... it will expire next spring. Someone else mentioned that pre-purchase of a Win7 upgrade license is currently available for half price from MS ... true ... and I'd recommend the Pro version (not Ultimate). Reason for dual boot is a looong story ... but suffice it to say you'll have plenty of HD space anyway, with your RAID5 <grin> ... and having a "pure" copy of XP may be a real lifesaver for some older software that Vista and even the improved Win7 interface may not support.

OK nuff said ... lots to chew on.

Best advice ... PRAY about it FIRST ... remember that resources used for gadgets are fine, if the gadgets are helping you walk with the Lord and serve Him ... but Paul did not own a Dell and he did purty good. :~)

In His service, and yours ...

Jim Dean

Mitch Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2861#Comment_2861

Jim,

Thanks again for the thorough reply.

I appreciate the explanations as to what/why I should get certain components.

As for using the PC for TV. I hardly ever watch it (mainly for a little sports...and "Travel the Road": worth having a TV for that!) but my wife and I will sometimes watch a program together. Overall, I say "throw the TV out".

I'm not hard pressed to get a PC now but know that what I have is on its last legs and while I can live, preach, study, etc. without it...well let's just say I have grown fond of having it around for many convenient reasons....the very reason why I plan on getting another one when this one dies.

I'm sure your answers (and help) to my questions will benefit many others as well. To that I say, "thanks" again.

Have a blessed day,
Mitch

P.S. - I will take you up on your TV tuner card offer...and send the $10.

Jim Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2865#Comment_2865

Email me at hvacsage@yahoo.com to arrange the transfer of the card. Please note - was purchased 5-6 years ago, so not a digital tuner - it's the old-school analog basis ... so I'm not sure if/how well it will work with the new standards.

I do have two of them ... if anyone else wants the other one, email me about it.

I also have some excellent swampland west of Miami to sell :~)))

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2868#Comment_2868

Brother JimDean,

(I would copy your quotes but they were SO long..)

THANK YOU for taking the time to be so specific in your hardware & configuration recommendations. Your RAID 5 suggestion sounds good. One question: Did I read you right on the L2 cache should be 1Gig? Have I missed a great leap in processor cache sizes? Thanks again for the details.

Mitch Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2883#Comment_2883

One question: Did I read you right on the L2 cache should be 1Gig? Have I missed a great leap in processor cache sizes? Thanks again for the details.

I kept taking it he meant MB not GB. I remember when kbs were as far as they went....just a few years ago

Jim Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2883#Comment_2883

oops! [:$]

too many gig's elsewhere ... I guess I just got too excited about huge numbers!

thanks for catching and correcting it!

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2812#Comment_2812

They're rolling out Windows 7 Oct 22. I understand that some mfgs are offering a free upgrade. I prepurchased Windows 7 and got it for about $50.00 so you might consider your options on this item.

I remember some annoying things by "upgrading" to XP from ME. I think i would rather buy a computer with 7 on it from the start.

Jim Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2890#Comment_2890

I agree, sort of.

I'm advocating TWO SEPARATE BOOTABLE PARTITIONS - one with XP, which is well-proven and stable; the second with Win7 which is presumably better than Vista (not a difficult task!), but is not as well-worked over and therefore potentially has glitches. Win7 is available for free NOW, in "RC" format which will function just fine till next spring/summer. You cannot buy machines now with Win7 on them. Once Win7 comes out, you can buy a license which will "officialize" your RC copy (and presumably you'll get an update at that time, too).

Both Vista and Win7 have a much cleaner and more straightforward approach to adding themselves to a computer with an existing operating system than prior OS's had. If they "see" an OS already on the computer, then they will ask whether it should be overwritten (ie upgraded), or whether a separate bootable OS partition should be used for the new OS. I haven't done it yet so I'm not sure ... but I suspect that they even help you facilitate the creation of that second partition on the fly, presuming you have enough room on the HD.

Rule of thumb for partition size: if your current XP OS+programs (but no data) partition takes up X gig, then set aside X+10 gig for the new Win7/Vista partition, presuming you're installing the same programs on it that you have with XP. Of course it's a good idea to leave some extra space (I'd suggest at least 10gig15) for other programs you may want to add, later.

The beauty of this approach is that you ALWAYS have XP (or XP64) to "fall back to" even if Win7/Vista gets rocks in its socks.

I remember the good ole 98/Me days and the nightmares going to XP. That is NOT what's going on with these newer OS's now.

If you buy a computer with Win7 on it from the start, you will have three disadvantages:

1. You'll have to wait till October, at least

2. You'll have only one, brand new OS in it with potential early-level problems that all OS's undergo

3. Installing XP in a second boot partition (presuming you want to :~) with Win7 or Vista already on the computer is somewhat more difficult than the other way around.

WIth Hard Drives as huge as they are today, I figure having the second partition is "cheap insurance". Geeks who fiddle a lot often will have a THIRD partition for their "test OS" which they put any untried software on. If it gets zapped by a virus, then the other boot partitions are not affected.

Of course, you could ALSO put a third partition on with Linux :~)

Each to his own ... NOT trying to "push" the issue ... just trying to inform re the install options.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2890#Comment_2890

They're rolling out Windows 7 Oct 22. I understand that some mfgs are offering a free upgrade. I prepurchased Windows 7 and got it for about $50.00 so you might consider your options on this item.

I remember some annoying things by "upgrading" to XP from ME. I think i would rather buy a computer with 7 on it from the start.

On my old computer I upgraded from ME to XP without a single hitch.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2894#Comment_2894

I don't know how they do it but on the Mac they run both OSX and WinXP with only one Libronix resource folder. Is there any chance of doing that with WinXP and Windows 7? Or am I forever restricted to two full installations on a dual boot system? Maybe that's where the security of separate partitions comes in.

-- & Come to think of it, a 1Gig L2 cache would be awesome, wouldn't it? [<:o)]

Jim Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2901#Comment_2901

Absolutely, yes. I have done this before. Simply copy resources to a non-boot partition (presum ALL mydocs got there too), and point the resource path in each libronix installation to that location. I explained this I more detail in the story about implementing raid5 for drive D (see earlier post).
Note: in dualboot scenarios, normally the inactive boot partition is "invisible". So you hade to be clever about drive letter assignments. Depending on the boot settings, you can either freeze the drive letters or allow them to "float". I'm not sure how the native win7 & vista boot engines work (I've used partitionmagic's bootmagic in the past).
So, just boot once in each mode to discover what the drive letter of the mydocs drive (with Resources in it) in that boot mode.
Then, set Libronix's path appropriately. Repeat for other boot mode.

If you need more help/detail, let me know your specifics.

Jim Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2902#Comment_2902

PS please pardon typo's - working from my pda.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2861#Comment_2861

Afaik L has not yet offered this option, and I'm very disappointed in them for not doing so, since it is so easy.

As v3 is based on IE it will be limited by the toolbars and Active-X controls that it uses. If 32-bit and 3rd party (its toolbar/menu is) I can understand the reason for not offering 64-bit. v4 is based on .NET Framework 3.x so I will be very disappointed if a 64-bit version is not offered!

Jim Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2913#Comment_2913

I'd never thot that IE dependance would ave limited it to 32 bit. IE runs in 64bit XP - mebbe in the x86 mode somehow??
I was referring to the compiler switch for 64bit addresses and library.
Well - it's not my code, so I really shouldn't have commented about it.

If in fact Lv4 has a major arch switch to "pure" dotNet paradigm, it will be a big deal. I'd think it would really speed things up. Are you doing betatesting of it?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2914#Comment_2914

I'd never thot that IE dependance would ave limited it to 32 bit. IE runs in 64bit XP - mebbe in the x86 mode somehow?

The limitation is the 3rd party 32-bit code in Libronix as it would not work in 64-bit IE!

Are you doing betatesting of it?

I've been beta testing Win 7 64-bit, and found that IE 64-bit will not work with 32-bit ActiveX controls!

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2902#Comment_2902

Simply copy resources to a non-boot partition (presum ALL mydocs got there too)

It's not necessary to relocate MyDocs to the new drive/partition, as it can be used for ANY data. I simply keep my resources on a logical partition which is visible to both OS (XP and Win7). Win 7 always assumes drive C: when loaded but the data partition is seen as E: from both XP and Win 7. If not, it is simple to permanently change the drive letter to E:. Libronix thus sees my resources on E:\DLS Resources in both OS. User files in MyDocs (Docs in Win7) and Preference files in Application Data (AppData) can be kept in sync with my Backup and Restore utility (in the Files forum), or a third party sync tool like Beyond Compare.

Hint: you can use Power Tools Options to point User Files in both OS to the same folder on the data partition eg. E:\User Files.

Jim Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2925#Comment_2925

You are right - it's not necessary to move all of MyDocs - you can just move Resources. However, I suggested moving the whole Docs folde since most of what is usually in it is data that other programs will want to access, and my presumption is tht in the dualboot config, most all of those programs are loaded into both boot partitions.
So, rather than redirect their various pointers one at a time, I prefer to do them in one fell swoop, consistently. Potaytoe, potahto. Either way, the point is to move the files out of the boot partitin, to a commonly accessible external location.

Actually, it is moderately important, to get the speed benefits which I initially wrote about, to put all such docs and resources on a different physical hard drive- not just a different partition. In fact, when doing streaming-video capture, it's actually best to put the capture-target on a drive fed by a different contoller chip.

The idea is to picture how the data "flows" thru the box, physically, and to try and avoid bottlenecks. RAID5 (or 0) offers not only a separate contoller and sep physical devices with multiplied buffer sizes - it acts to widen the pipe.

Little understood, but lotta cool, given the low drive prices nowadays.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2935#Comment_2935

You are right - it's not necessary to move all of MyDocs

Hi Jim

Your dual-boot presumptions are also mine but i prefer not to share program data via MyDocs (or necessarily use it as the main default). My data partition exists on the sole HDD of my laptop but i use another HDD on my desktop (2 x 10000RPM Raptors not in a RAID).

I avoid RAID 5 because of complexity and expense (HDD's and a proper RAID controller). I avoid RAID 0 because it again requires a proper RAID controller for my peace of mind!.

Timothy Lovegrove

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/2857#Comment_2857

I'm hopping into this discussion a little late, but hoping for some input. Since solid state drives are starting to drift down in price, would there be any value in putting an SSD in an empty drive bay and putting the logos resources on the SSD? If that's a stupid idea, go ahead and tell me!

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/4168#Comment_4168

I'm hopping into this discussion a little late, but hoping for some input. Since solid state drives are starting to drift down in price, would there be any value in putting an SSD in an empty drive bay and putting the logos resources on the SSD? If that's a stupid idea, go ahead and tell me!

Really good question Timothy. I have a related question prompted by the recent blog post for Logos Bible Software on an SD Card.

The new Media Only SD Card - Logos Bible Software 3 http://www.logos.com/products/details/5280 made me wonder if it could function like a mini pocket drive. The articles mainly describe it for installation on netbooks that lack optical drives but how about loading all one's Logos resources on the SD card and pointing the program installation to the SD folder? I have never been good at faithful back-ups or synch-ing computers. I generally use one computer for many days at a time making a marked difference between the two Logos file systems. I would be happier with the simple solution of just switching out the SSD from one computer to another. I've seen these storage capacities available on eBay : 256g SSD, 32gb SDHC, 128gb USB.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/4177#Comment_4177

would there be any value in putting an SSD in an empty drive bay and putting the logos resources on the SSD?

There would be some value in using an SSD (>= 32 GB), but the cost/benefit ratio would not justify it! I might justify it as a boot drive as there will be more benefits, but another phone call to M$ might be necessary to re-activate my OS! Further, SSD's are not created equal so you should do some Google researching e.g. Intel has some newer and cheaper drives that would go really well with Windows 7 - http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9135885/Opinion_Windows_7_Will_Scream_With_New_SSD_Drives?taxonomyId=149

how about loading all one's Logos resources on the SD card and pointing the program installation to the SD folder?

My experience with USB and SD drives >=4GB shows that they are not slower than a good laptop HDD whilst the times of some reports and searches are faster. So it would be worthwhile doing as you suggest, especially as an SD card can remain in place on a laptop during a move. Use the the ability of Windows XP, Vista, Win7 to permanently change drive letters so that the drive is the same on ALL computers e.g. drive S:

Jim Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/4226#Comment_4226

Two ways to speed up massive searches:
1. If you have a 64bit OS you can add up to 32G Ram, much more cheaply than you might think.
2. Rather than teensy SSD's, consider creating a huge, superfast hard drive array using RAID5

Long story here re RAID - will not go thru it unless someone asks. Nutshell: raid5 gives asyougo auto-backup, AND increases access time by 3x or more, and gives you 3x or more storage space than a single drive of the same type.
HD's are incred cheap.
Example: 4@750g HD w/32M cache for $70 each, plus $150 Raid5 card gives you 2.25 terabytes storage yet runs 3-4x faster than a normal hd.

Some machines have builtin Raid controllers, but not usually raid5.
Can be done internally or externally.
Need a min of 3drives.

This speeds up ALL activity on HD's.

It's the "bee's knees"

Timothy Lovegrove

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/4247#Comment_4247

Two ways to speed up massive searches:
1. If you have a 64bit OS you can add up to 32G Ram, much more cheaply than you might think.
2. Rather than teensy SSD's, consider creating a huge, superfast hard drive array using RAID5
Long story here re RAID - will not go thru it unless someone asks. Nutshell: raid5 gives asyougo auto-backup, AND increases access time by 3x or more, and gives you 3x or more storage space than a single drive of the same type.
HD's are incred cheap.
Example: 4@750g HD w/32M cache for $70 each, plus $150 Raid5 card gives you 2.25 terabytes storage yet runs 3-4x faster than a normal hd.
Some machines have builtin Raid controllers, but not usually raid5.
Can be done internally or externally.
Need a min of 3drives.
This speeds up ALL activity on HD's.
It's the "bee's knees"

Jim, thank you very much for taking the time to give these replies. Looks like I will be going with a RAID-5 just like you are suggesting. Your replies were not in vain! [:)]

Jim Dean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/4297#Comment_4297

You're welcome, Timothy.

If you're not personally comfortable in messing with computers' innards (RAID5 isn't hard, but you do need to install them, connect cables, and mess with the BIOS settings), then make SURE your vendor fully understands that you want RAID 5 - not 0 or 1 or 10. Also, you'll need to make sure your box has room for at least three and preferably four HD's in it, unless you prefer to use an external box called a "backplane".

Also, my mention of the 750G was arbitrary. ANY size HD that has 32M RAM is just fine - but all of them have to be exactly the same. If you're buying WD brand, go for the "black" label - "green" is OK too, but avoid the blue for these app's.

Finally, if by some chance you are ALSO going to use the machine for VIDEO CAPTURE (ie feeding the output of a video camera to the HD directly during the live recording), then you should arrange to have TWO separately-controlled drives. In that case, I suggest you use a conventional C drive, and put all of the L resources on the RAID5 D drive. Access time to the C drive does not really need acceleration in most cases, since programs stored their are typically loaded into RAM when initiated. There are other nitpicky considerations re video ... but most people don't do this so I'll defer any other comments unless asked.

Enjoy!

Brian Whalen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/4302#Comment_4302

Since we're walking down tech st a little bit here, for those of us that need it to be easy, you can buy an external storage device with this capability, usually these are called NAS or Network Attached Storage devices. Here is one company that makes them, http://www.buffalotech.com/products/network-storage/terastation/. Newegg is a fave tech vendor of mine, here is their page, http://www.newegg.com/store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=124&Tpk=nas.
The plus of one of these is you can use them as a backup plan, store files/photos on them reliably, and with raid 5, if one disk fails, assuming you become aware of it before a second failure, you just swap the disk and no data is lost.

Brian

Stuart A Weber

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/4302#Comment_4302

Ill add my 2 cents and ask some more also.

1) RAID is not "backup"- RAID0 is for speed- usually the other scenarios are for maintaining uptime in event of a drive failure- but it is not "backup"- a virus (or child can wipe the data off of all the drives in a RAID1,5,6,10,0+1, etc just as easy as if you had a single drive. Writing to a RAID5 can be slow, unless you have a pricey controller with a speedy cpu on it (not that you will be writing to it too much if used just for resources)- and then there is the issue of cache and battery backup- if the system shuts down and the card was still writing to disk, you can loose data if you dont have a battery backup for the card.

For "backup" of your resources,burn the downloads to CD/DVD and put them away safe along with the resources you received on CD.

For speed, a RAID0 with 2 or more fast drives will do wonderfully.

Also, a technician told me that Libronix makes an index file of all your resources. It stores that index file on the system drive and there is no way to move it. Now I dont know if that index gets loaded to RAM when you start Libronix, or if it needs to read from that index file everytime you do searching. If so, then system drive speed could be just as important as resource drive speed.

He also said that Libronix is a memory hog- it will take all the ram you throw at it. Now how 4GB vs 8GB improves speed and of what functions, i dont know- im just reporting what he said.

My questions- CPU choice, and also RAM timings.

1) I dont know if Libronix natively supports more than 1 CPU- so I wonder if Dual dual-core XEONs gives any benefit over say, a fast single CPU like a Core i7?

2) ram timings- i always thought that ram timings (CAS, etc) were important to keep low for gaming- but a salesrep said it is really more important for databases. y/n?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/6089#Comment_6089

Also, a technician told me that Libronix makes an index file of all your resources. It stores that index file on the system drive and there is no way to move it. Now I dont know if that index gets loaded to RAM when you start Libronix, or if it needs to read from that index file everytime you do searching

More a cache than an index - stored in \Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Libronix DLS\Library\Cache\Metadata (XP) or \ProgramData\Libronix DLS\Library\Cache\Metadata (Vista/Win7). Created during Resource Discovery it is used more for Reports (Library, Bibliography) than searching.

1) I dont know if Libronix natively supports more than 1 CPU

No, but it can take advantage of multi-threading which means that multi CPU's should be an advantage. If nothing else, when Libronix gets non-responsive you can easily switch to another program!

2) ram timings- i always thought that ram timings (CAS, etc) were important to keep low for gaming- but a salesrep said it is really more important for databases

Low latency is important for database servers but don't get too exited for typical user/client computers. Most affordable improvements are less than 10% which cannot be perceived at the user interface! Gamers will spend hundreds of dollars for esoteric RAM timings, but they spend big in other areas as well e.g. video cards to drive multi-monitors at high resolutions like 2500 x 1600!

Stuart A Weber

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/6122#Comment_6122

Thanks dave- good info. Im still deciding what to build though.

so as far as Libronix:

1) its not necessary for the cache fileto be on a speedy drive?

2) Xeons or single core i7?

3) core i7 will allw DDR3 which can get really high in speed. Any advantage for Libronix?

(I know that the bread & butter is the drive subsysem speed)

thanks

Thomas Myers

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