SUGGESTION: very broad swath of Christian church documents - please look at the table of contents no

Documents of the Christian Church by Henry Bettenson and Chris Maunder, editors

Yes, some of the early documents are already available in several resources. But there is enough that is new, that I STRONGLY suggest this resource. It's breadth can alleviate some of the perceptions expressed in the forums.

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George Somsel

MJ Smith wrote: "Not who posted this."

?? You ?? [:^)]

Friedrich

okay, but where is Amish Fiction and Campbell's Declaration and Address . . . ?[:)]

HJ. van der Wal

Is that you on your avatar picture?

Okay, I'm looking at the table of content: only two pages on Calvinism?!?! Oh well, fortunately presbyterianism and the Westminster Confession receive more attention. On the whole this looks like a good collection. [Y]

MJ. Smith

okay, but where is Amish Fiction and Campbell's Declaration and Address . . . ?

I think they are with the Byzantine and Eastern Church in the virtual volume[;)]

MJ. Smith

Is that you on your avatar picture?

Not really - but it's a great picture.[H]

Friedrich

okay, but where is Amish Fiction and Campbell's Declaration and Address . . . ?

I think they are with the Byzantine and Eastern Church in the virtual volume

[:D]

Friedrich

Is that you on your avatar picture?

. . . she'd like us to think it is not her . . . [:O]

fgh

Definitely!

I've got an earlier edition on paper, but that's missing lots of this. Plus we need more 'documents'. Weird, though, that they're leaving out Dei Verbum, and weirder still to pretend only Protestants resisted Nazism! (Talking of that: does anyone know where I can find a copy of the Dutch bishops' letter? I've tried earlier to find it on the internet, but didn't succeed.)

Bettenson's also got a book called The Early Christian Fathers, but I guess we've probably already got everything included there in the ECF?

EDIT: I thought I had seen this suggestion before, and it turns out I had: It's on one of Rosie's lists: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/28417.aspx. Check it out; lots of good books there.

MJ. Smith

EDIT: I thought I had seen this suggestion before, and it turns out I had: It's on one of Rosie's lists: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/28417.aspx. Check it out; lots of good books there.

Rosie's list does have many good books. However, I thought that with the recent Catholic documents (delivered, forthcoming or pre-pubs) and some of the recent requests for other denominational materials, this is a good time to highlight this particular resource. I have it in Kindle format and would seriously object to how focused it is on Catholicism and the Anglicans ... not that others are totally ignored but they aren't given their "fair share". I'm still on the lookout for additional titles to fill in some of the gaps.

EmileB

i find this a very useful resource and would not hesitate to purchase. [Y]

HJ. van der Wal

(Talking of that: does anyone know where I can find a copy of the Dutch bishops' letter? I've tried earlier to find it on the internet, but didn't succeed.)

Do you mean the letter of July 1942? You can find this letter - and many other roman catholic documents - at the following site:

http://rkdocumenten.nl/rkdocs/index.php?mi=600&doc=134 (I just hope your Dutch is as good as your Spanish [;)])

George Somsel

(Talking of that: does anyone know where I can find a copy of the Dutch bishops' letter? I've tried earlier to find it on the internet, but didn't succeed.)

Do you mean the letter of July 1942? You can find this letter - and many other roman catholic documents - at the following site:

http://rkdocumenten.nl/rkdocs/index.php?mi=600&doc=134 (I just hope your Dutch is as good as your Spanish )

For the sake of those who don't read Dutch or whose Dutch is even more rusty and crusty than my own, I submit a translation. My apologies to the authors.

Pastoral Letter of the Bishops of the Netherlands

We live in a time of great need, both spiritual and material. Thereby two needs arise to the fore in the last time [eschatological ??!!]: The need of the Jews and the need of those who are put to work outside the country.

Of these needs we must all be profoundly aware: Therefore they are here GEMEERSCHAPELIJK [fully ? expressly ?] called to [your] attention.

These needs must be brought to the attention of those who are in charge: Therefore the Exalted Netherlands Episcopate in communion with SCHIER [??] all churches in the Netherlands address the authorities of the occupying forces regarding the Jews included in the dispatch of July 11 j.l. [last year ?] with the following content:

"The below named churches of the Netherlands are deeply alarmed by the decrees regarding the Jews in the Netherlands whereby they are excluded from the normal civic life, [and] have with dismay taken cognizance of the new decrees whereby men, women, children and entire families will be deported to the German Reich and ONDERHOORIGHEDEN [its dependencies ?].

The distress that thereby is produced by the tendency [consequence ?] , the law that these decrees are in conflict with the most profound moral inclinations and, most of all, the INDRUISCHEN [impingement ?] of these decrees are put in place against that of the divine will, the Commandments of justice and mercy, obliges the churches to direct to you the pressing plea to give no implementation to these decrees.

"On behalf of the Christians among the Jews this urgent plea is motivated above all by the consideration that they will be excluded from the participation in the Church's life"

This dispatch had at least the consequence that the Commissioner-General on behalf of the Reichskommisar has promised Jewish Christians shall not be deported provided they belonged to one of the christian churches prior to January, 1941.

Dearly beloved, as we survey the deprivations, spiritual and physical miseries, which increasingly for three years threatens dislocation, then we naturally think of the scene when Jesus came into the vicinity of Jerusalem and saw the city lying before him, wept over her, and said, "Oh, would that you at this time perceive what brings you peace, but now that is hidden from your sight. Because days shall come upon you when your enemies shall encircle you with siege works, shall surround you on all sides and bring you to distress. They shall topple your walls and will not leave you one stone on top of another because you did not recognize the time of grace." The prophecy of Jesus has literally come to fruition: Forty years later the divine proclamation concerning the city of Jerusalem was executed. They had unfortunately failed to recognize the time of grace.

Also everything about us indicates a divine vengeance. But, thanks be to God, for us it is not yet too late. We can yet turn it aside from us if we recognize the time of grace, if we even now perceive what leads to our peace -- and that is solely a return to God from whom a great portion of the world continually for years have turned aside. All human means have failed, only God can provide a solution.

Dearly beloved, let us in the first place turn within ourselves in a profound sense of contrition and humility. Are we not co-conspirators in the calamities which have befallen us? Have we always sought the Kingdom of God and his righteousness? Have we always observed the obligations of righteousness and love of neighbor with regard to our fellow man? Have we not sometimes harbored feelings of unholy hate and bitterness? Have we indeed always had recourse to God, our Heavenly Father? If we examine ourselves, we must acknowledge that we all have come up short. Peccamus ante Dominum Deum nostrum. We have sinned in the eyes of the Lord our God.

Yet, we also know that God will not reject a penitent and humble heart. Cor contritum et humilitatum non despicies. And therefore we turn ourselves toward him and beg him for mercy with childlike trust. He himself told us, "Ask and you shall receive; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened for you."

In the Introit to today's holy mass the Church calls out to us in the words of the Psalmist, "Behold, God is my helper who preserves my life." And in the Epistle she recounts the very consolatory words of the Apostle, "No trial which is human can overcome you; yet God is faithful, and he will not permit it that you be tested beyond your strength; but with the testing he will also grant escape that you may endure."

Therefore, beloved believers, we beg God through the intercession of the Mother of Mercy,

that he may bestow a speedy and equitable peace.

That he may maintain the existence of the people of Israel that in these days are so bitterly tested and bring them to true salvation in Christ Jesus.

That he might protect those whose fate it is to live and to work among strangers hidden from their DIERBAREN [loved ones ?]. He might protect them in soul and body, keep them from bitterness and defeatism, cause them to remain faithful to the Christian faith and strengthen those left behind.

We beg for release of all tried and oppressed, for prisoners and hostages, for as many as over whom hang the threat and danger of life.

Pateant aures misericordiae tuae, Domine, precibus supplicantium Pateant aures misericordiae tuae, Domine, precibus supplicantium: May the eyes of your mercy, Lord, be open to the prayers of your petitioners.

This our joint pastoral writing will be read on Sunday, 26 July a.s. [ ?? ] in all of the churches and chapels belonging to our church dioceses where a rector is appointed. In all appointed H. H. Missen [high holy masses ?] it shall be read in the customary manner.

Proclaimed at Utrecht, 20th July in the year of our Lord 1942.

HJ. van der Wal

For the sake of those who don't read Dutch or whose Dutch is even more rusty and crusty than my own, I submit a translation. My apologies to the authors.

Thank you very much for translating the letter into English! It would have taken me too much time and also [bovendien] my English is a bit "rusty and crusty".

There was just one paragraph where I didn't understand your translation. Here is a revised (non-interlinear!) translation:

"The
distress that hereby is brought over ten thousands, the knowledge that
these measures are in conflict with the most profound
moral sense of the Dutch people, and most of all the impingement of
these measures on what God has stated as requirement of justice and
mercy, oblige the churches to direct to you
the pressing plea to give no implementation to these measures."

And a few other notes:

in de laatste tijd = recently
schier = nearly, almost
bovendien = besides, moreover [not: above all]

j.l. = jongstleden = last
a.s. = aanstaande = forthcoming

(According to current Dutch orthography "jongstleden" should be abbreviated as "jl.", whereas "aanstaande" is abbreviated as "a.s." to avoid confusion)

HJ. van der Wal

George, now that I know that you have a perfect command of Dutch, I'd like to ask what Dutch theologians you have read besides Berkouwer. Did you ever read anything by the "grote drie" (i.e. Miskotte, Noordmans, Van Ruler)?

fgh

Rosie's list does have many good books. However, I thought ...

I wasn't criticizing you for starting a new thread; just trying to get some support for some other good books. [:)]

Do you mean the letter of July 1942? You can find this letter - and many other roman catholic documents - at the following site:

Of course. Thanks! I knew someone here would know; I just wasn't sure if that someone would see the question in a thread like this.

(I just hope your Dutch is as good as your Spanish )

Yes, it's pretty exactly as good as my Spanish: i e virtually non-existant... [;)] But there's always Google... -- If you don't have access to helpful forum members, that is:

For the sake of those who don't read Dutch or whose Dutch is even more rusty and crusty than my own, I submit a translation. My apologies to the authors.

Wow! That was incredibly kind of you! I bet you did a better job than Google would have done...

I'll look into it more tomorrow; I'm too tired for that kind of reading right now (it's rather depressing to read naively hopeful statements like "the Commissioner-General on behalf of the Reichskommisar has promised Jewish Christians shall not be deported provided they belonged to one of the christian churches prior to January, 1941", when you know only too well that virtually all Jewish Catholics in the country were dead two weeks or so after that letter was read. As were countless others.).

George Somsel

Wow! That was incredibly kind of you! I bet you did a better job than Google would have done...

Yes, I'll claim that mine is better than Google since I did take a look at that. Wha a joke !

EDIT: Be sure to substitute Hendrick's corrections.

Aaron Knotts

okay, but where is Amish Fiction and Campbell's Declaration and Address . . . ?[:)]

Going out on a limb.....I wouldn't mind Campell's (et al) work in Logos. [H]