It's time to start developing Logos 5
Logos 4 is too slow, too bloated, an relies on indexing technology which is completely outmoded. It's still missing too many things which we loved about Logos 3. And it's still the slowest of the Bible software packages for searching the Bible.
It's time to scrap the whole thing and reprogram the software and resources from scratch, with SPEED as the priority.
Comments
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Richard Hendricks said:
relies on indexing technology which is completely outmoded.
could you expand on this?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I think that that's a bit unfare. I ran a search yesterday on Paul for my entire library and came up with 251, 973 hits in 82, 819 artices in 951 resources in .46 of a second.I also ran a Bible search on David in all of my english Bibles and came up with 30, 309 hits from 26,239 verses in 34 resources in 1.34 seconds. That's pretty fast in my way of thinking. It may be that your computer needs to be updated to wrok faster with the new search engines used by Logos 4.
Steve Caswell
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... or choose to use one of the other products. Not a wrong choice if they really are faster for you.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Richard Hendricks said:
It's time to scrap the whole thing and reprogram the software and resources from scratch
They just scrapped the whole thing and rewrote it from scratch for L4, which shipped less than 18 months ago. And it took them 2-3 years to write it all over again. They're not likely to do that again any time soon. And it's a good thing, too. When they started over from scratch, they had a brand new product that was very buggy coming out the gate and needed lots of beta testing to get it ready to ship. What they've got now has been getting more and more stable and faster and faster since it shipped. They are probably better off continuing to improve this relatively new codebase rather than ditching it and beginning all over again.
The one thing that might need to be chucked at some point (maybe for L5...which probably won't be for another couple of years at least, I'm guessing) would be WPF as a display engine. But I'm guessing they could replace it with something else developed in-house (if they decide to do that) without scrapping the entire product. And that would probably result in significant performance improvement for people with older machines. But frankly, the longer it takes for them to get around to doing this, the less relevant it will be that people today who have less powerful machines don't have a good experience running Logos. In three years, those machines will be ancient dinosaurs. Logos has always claimed they develop for the cutting edge machines, and plan for long shelf-life of their product. EDIT: The first couple of years after a rewrite are always tough, but then as time goes on more and more people LOVE the product and would never want to switch to the next version. We're seeing the tail end of that cycle now with the L3-->L4 transition, but a year from now I'm sure it will be only a distant memory and will have a few years to enjoy Logos 4 as the best bar none.
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There is no way to satisfy everybody. I think that L4 is the best Bible software. Thank you Logos so much. I am so much blessed by using Logos. [Y]
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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I teach others how to study the scriptures using bible programs, I recently bought some of the very latest programs from other companies to learn their new features so I could help people with those programs.
It is amazing how fast and simply some of the programs are for searching and note taking as well as other features. For many of these programs the thing they lack the most is a large selection of books, which is a moot point for many believers because they will never need more books than some of these programs have.
I was shocked to see two of these companies have started working together and you can now buy commentaries for one of the best language programs from another company. Commentaries such as the New International commentary on the Old and New Testaments plus four former NIC volumes for 1099.99.
However, getting back to the point being made, if you take 10 bibles and do a search in these other programs you will be shocked to see how fast they do the search in and how simple it is to do the search.
I am afraid that Logos 4 has allowed some of these other companies to make tremendous strides in catching up to Logos, and their prices for the lower packages are very inexpensive, and easy to add PD books to them. For most believers these will be great tools, for me they lack the book selection I need or at least that I want, but some of the now have several thousands of books one of them has 3-4000 books and they are growing each week.
The point being as much as I love Logos, because of the things it lacks something needs to be done if they want to be more useful to the average believer than several of the other companies are.
In Christ,
Jim VanSchoonhoven
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Jim VanSchoonhoven said:
I teach others how to study the scriptures using bible programs, I recently bought some of the very latest programs from other companies to learn their new features so I could help people with those programs.
It is amazing how fast and simply some of the programs are for searching and note taking as well as other features. For many of these programs the thing they lack the most is a large selection of books, which is a moot point for many believers because they will never need more books than some of these programs have.
I was shocked to see two of these companies have started working together and you can now buy commentaries for one of the best language programs from another company. Commentaries such as the New International commentary on the Old and New Testaments plus four former NIC volumes for 1099.99.
However, getting back to the point being made, if you take 10 bibles and do a search in these other programs you will be shocked to see how fast they do the search in and how simple it is to do the search.
I am afraid that Logos 4 has allowed some of these other companies to make tremendous strides in catching up to Logos, and their prices for the lower packages are very inexpensive, and easy to add PD books to them. For most believers these will be great tools, for me they lack the book selection I need or at least that I want, but some of the now have several thousands of books one of them has 3-4000 books and they are growing each week.
The point being as much as I love Logos, because of the things it lacks something needs to be done if they want to be more useful to the average believer than several of the other companies are.
In Christ,
Jim VanSchoonhoven
Jim i invest a lot of time in Logos 4 and i am pretty happy with it. But if there is something out their that would make my work load a little easier i would like to know about it. you sound like you are up to speed on the other programs and if you don't mind please give some names that i might do some research on.
thanks
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Richard Hendricks said:
It's time to scrap the whole thing and reprogram the software and resources from scratch, with SPEED as the priority.
By the time Logos 5 is out, you'll have updated your computer at least once, and Logos 4 will fly!
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Jim VanSchoonhoven said:
However, getting back to the point being made, if you take 10 bibles and do a search in these other programs you will be shocked to see how fast they do the search in and how simple it is to do the search.
Jim,
No...I'm sure I wouldn't be shocked...but what KIND of search are you doing to test this capacity?
Are you performing a "dumb" search like "God, Jesus, Spirit"....or something equally easy for many bible programs?
If so...then yes....they are very fast....but that's the extent of their capability.....
That brings up a good point...if a person just wants to search to see how many times the English word "believed" is used in the bible then maybe all they need is "one of the other products"....they do that just fine.
What KIND of search are you referring to?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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This has been covered ad nauseum on these forums many times in the past, but the whole purpose of rewriting and moving to a new foundation of software (WPF, .NET, and other device technologies) was to have a platform to build and add upon for a long time. There is much that can and should be done to version 4 before it is obsoleted. The underlying technologies that Logos relies on will dramatically improve as well in the coming years. Don't hold your breath for Logos 5, no reason for it and it would be a suicidal business move IMHO.
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Mark Barnes said:Richard Hendricks said:
It's time to scrap the whole thing and reprogram the software and resources from scratch, with SPEED as the priority.
By the time Logos 5 is out, you'll have updated your computer at least once, and Logos 4 will fly!
Please do not tell Rosie this. Let us say that her experience with her "mongo fast machine" is not this.
For me, Because I just purchase a computer a year before L4 came out, the odds of me replacing my computer before L5 comes out is not likely. I use my computers for about 10 years.
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[Y]Dominick Sela said:This has been covered ad nauseum
Dominick Sela said:The underlying technologies that Logos relies on will dramatically improve as well in the coming years
This is not necessary true. IMHO, WPF has never provided what it has promised. And now there are rumors about the future of WPF because of HTML5. Here is a post about it: http://charliedigital.com/2010/11/04/html5-and-the-future-of-silverlight-and-wpf/.
Again IMHO, Logos took a gamble with Microsoft's new technology WPF, and they lost. I believe that Logos needs to run away from WPF.
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This is the relevant paragraph from the article...it's far from a slam dunk on WPF....but then again...I'm not a tech head:
With that said, what baffles me is the implication that WPF is on its
way out, too. But Peter's write up concludes with the following
paragraph:Perhaps Microsoft is already hinting at its plans.
Direct2D is currently the best way for developers to create high
performance user interfaces in Windows, and the easiest way to use
Direct2D is with HTML5, in Internet Explorer 9. Could Redmond embrace
and extend HTML5 to fill in all the gaps that today need Flash or
Silverlight, and then use it as the basis for Windows development? Such
an approach is already popular on iOS. Stranger things have happened.Now that's an interesting take that I wouldn't have seen
coming but it would certainly be glorious. I'd trade WPF for hardware
accelerated HTML5 everywhere in a heartbeat.It sounds like a lot of questions and suppositions and not a lot of hard data.....no? (Where's Geraldo Rivera?)
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Well, we're not going to throw it away and start over soon. I know that for sure. :-)
We do, of course, do that -- Logos 4 is the third ground up re-write after the first platform -- but it'll be years before we do it again.
If you want lean and fast, like some of our competitors who have simple search engines, small libraries, and don't try to do fancy stuff with reports and reverse interlinears, then http://biblia.com is probably an even better solution. You don't even have to install software, and there's a large library.
We'll also be investing more in support for mobile devices, which we believe will be the platform of choice for many users when they don't need a powerful tool on a desktop machine.
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Thank you - Thank you - Thank you!
And Thanks to GOD!
Thomas
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I could not have said it better than Rosie and Slava.
Ditto to both of you.
Thanks Bob and Logos, for developing the best Bible software in the world, and for being the best company in the world!
Jerry
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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Robert Pavich said:
It sounds like a lot of questions and suppositions and not a lot of hard data
You are correct. As of right now, there is basically a bunch of questions, suppositions, and rumors.
If you search WPF, one word that is used very often to describe WPF is slow. What is one of the main things people are complaining about L4 - it is slow. L4 is a good program once you get past all of the "Not responding" messages (and the note issues - but that is a different issue).
FYI..I took the stranger things have happened as a being ironic. How often does Microsoft follows Apple's lead - all of the time.
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In my mind the biggest development in Logos 4 was the whole "cloud" concept, which is one of the reasons it has been so unpopuler, it is a massive shakeup of how things work.
I did not originally like the concept but with the drive towards mobile platforms I now see the point, you have to have a cloud architecture in order to realise the mobile vision, and a very exiting vision it is too.
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I suspect this whole discussion is a moot one for me. I am so deeply invested in Logos that there is no way to change to another Bible program. Then again, I haven't found one to which I want to change.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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I love Logos4 and it is fast on my i7comp.
Thanks Logos Team![Y]
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Richard Hendricks said:
It's time to scrap the whole thing and reprogram the software and resources from scratch, with SPEED as the priority.
From my opinion's perspective it depends on what you mean by "speed." If we are talking about a search and the difference is 5 minutes to do a search vs. 10 seconds to do a search, yes, getting it down to 10 seconds is very important. However if you are talking about taking it from 10 seconds to .00001 seconds, no, it shouldn't be a priority. I can live very comfortably with a 10 second search. In fact, I would argue that it takes at least 10 minutes to chew over and digest a significant truth which would mean I'm the one slowing down the process, not the computer.
The same thing is true for performing a specific task. For instance if due to the slowness of menus it takes me 1 minute to right click menus and select a desired task. That is too long for me personally. After about 30 seconds I've forgotten what I was doing. Yes, that was a moment of truth :-). However, I can live with a menu taking 2-5 seconds to come up.
I've used some of the other programs. In fact I gave away a high end program when L4 came out because the person I gave it to would get far more use out of it then I would having a sizable L4 library. Don't get me wrong, the other program was great and could do some wonderful things, but I spent so much time adjusting settings and trying to remember which Icon did what that I spent my time doing a program rather then doing Bible Study. Personally I get more Bible study done in L4, be it with a slower interface, then I ever have anytime in the past.
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Bill Moore said:
I am so deeply invested in Logos that there is no way to change to another Bible program.
I have often been unsure about this argument, Bill's point of view notwithstanding . The reason being is that I can remember being deeply invested in an IBM PS2, for around $10,000.00 back in 1989. Which I'm sure is now several layers down in a landfill somewhere...
Just a thought.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Paul Golder said:Bill Moore said:
I am so deeply invested in Logos that there is no way to change to another Bible program.
I have often been unsure about this argument, Bill's point of view notwithstanding . The reason being is that I can remember being deeply invested in an IBM PS2, for around $10,000.00 back in 1989. Which I'm sure is now several layers down in a landfill somewhere...
Just a thought.
Actually that's a good observation...no offense to Bill intended....it's the same argument as wasting food.....once food is paid for...no matter where it goes, in your belly or in the trash...you're out the same cash....(this is in response to the "don't waste food/clean your plate" argument...I WAS overweight and that was a big one for me....eat all of it because it cost me money rather than because i'm hungry)
You can also sell your Logos stuff (transfer?) to someone else, and no, I don't think it's incredibly cost efficient, but if you want to "get out" it IS one way to go and regain "most" of your outlay of cash....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Richard Hendricks said:
Logos 4 is too slow, too bloated, an relies on indexing technology which is completely outmoded. It's still missing too many things which we loved about Logos 3. And it's still the slowest of the Bible software packages for searching the Bible.
I find it interesting to watch the responses to your post. Folks seem personally connected to Logos4 and hints of defensiveness come through in more than one post. I don't think that's a bad thing, on the contrary, Logos has a very loyal and dedicated user base. That's a good thing, and bodes well for Logos' future. I suppose I'm one of those who are loyal and begin to feel defensive when my precious program, that I have so much time and money invested in, seems to be 'attacked' in some way. But I hope my response below doesn't feel defensive to you.
Back to your observations. "Logos is too slow," you say. That is not my experience. What do you find slow as you use the program?
I'll pass over 'bloated' since I'm not a programmer and wouldn't know how to evaluate that statement.
You say that Logos " relies on indexing technology which is completely outmoded." Are you saying that the concept of indexing technology is outmoded, or that the implementation Logos is using is outmoded? As to the first possibility, Libronix was not indexed as L4 is, and takes much longer to do complex searches. As Logos' resource list expands, indexing is a great way to do massive, complex, and relevant searches quickly. If, on the other hand, you're suggesting that the particular implementation of indexing is outmoded, did you know that Logos recently reworked it's indexing protocols to make them more robust and faster?
You say that L4 is " still missing too many things which we loved about Logos 3." Can you be more specific? I can only think of one or two that I miss, but don't miss them enough to even open L3 any more.
As to comparing with other Bible programs, I don't own any others, and haven't used any for many, many years. So I can't intelligently comment on that assessment.
Speed seems to be an issue for you, as the last sentence of your first paragraph and your concluding sentence suggest. Have you tried any of the strategies for improving speed found in the Wiki? For example, this page: http://wiki.logos.com/Speeding_up_Logos_4_responses or this page: http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Running_Slowly If so, can you tell us more about your system.
Speed has been an issue for some users and not for others -- sometimes with nearly identical hardware and software. So far, all attempts to narrow down the culprit(s) for these situations has proven futile. This can be quite frustrating, and I wish there was more we could do to help, if that's the case with you.
However, some have found some help on these forums from other users with similar problems who have found solutions that worked for them. If you can be more specific about your issues, we may be able to provide specific help to improve your experience with Logos4.
I went looking for issues you may have already brought up in these forums and, unless I'm mistaken, except for this post, you haven't posted since 2009 (is that correct)? Much of what you brought up earlier is now functional in L4 (though perhaps not in the same way as in L3), but if there are still some L3 tools that you don't find in L4, let us know which, and we can confirm that they aren't present, or are, but perhaps in a different form.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Steve Clevenger said:
I love Logos4 and it is fast on my i7comp.
Thanks Logos Team!
Thank you, Steve, for a post to which I can wholeheartedly and with great enthusiasm "resonate"!
I bought an ACER desktop with 4Gig Ram and a good graphics card in December - less than 800 dollars for just the computer. I can add more Ram if I want, but it doesn't need it.
Also, thank you, Bob Pritchett, for your post.
You are right-on as I think the youth would say.
I upgraded to an i7 so that my Logos could "fly"! And it does!
Also, I have just seen i7 laptops here in Canada for less than $900 and i7 desktops for less than $700, both with 4G Ram so to use L4 with power and authority is not outrageously expensive.
Rom 14:17-19 -
17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuildingPhilippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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I don't want to take this too far off the subject, but WPF/XAML is not going anywhere. The improvements that Microsoft makes with the .NET framework will only be improved upon in the coming years and Logos should and will take advantage of this. I include XAML with WPF because it really is what makes WPF so friendly to develop with. If you now look at how reliant Microsoft UI development is on XAML (WPF, Silverlight, Windows 7 phone), you really start to see the big picture for their UI.
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Richard DeRuiter said:
As to comparing with other Bible programs, I don't own any others, and haven't used any for many, many years. So I can't intelligently comment on that assessment.
Speed seems to be an issue for you
Speed tends to really come into play when compared to other programs, I would tend to agree with Jim's thoughts, in that those who don't need all the abilities of Logos, and have a limited budget, may find their needs well met somewhere else.
Which seems disconcerting to me.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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I do not believe it would be right to mention names, but if you spend a little time doing some searching for bible study programs you will come up with some names that you can then do some research on.
And for those that think Logos is the only company that can do complicated searches think again, Logos does a great job, but many of you know about other language based programs that do complicated searches well, Logos was not the first. Before making some of these statements about other software, maybe it would be good to try them out.
The point I am making is that other companies have made some big progress in the last few years, and they have some real features to offer the average pastor or believer. Some of them have great searching, note taking, internet interplay, ability to write books, the ablility to use pdf files along side of an open passage of scripture, some are easy to add pd books to them and many other features.
Logos is more geared towards some one wanting to do advance work. Both in language and research, I am working on my THD and it is great, but not for notes.
I would like to see logos pay more attention on the things the vast majority of believers would be using, however they are actually going the other way, and I am concerned about that, because I would love to see Logos as a program for everyone.
I run across 100's of people while teaching others how to use bible software that I simply can not recommend Logos to as their best choice of software. This bothers me, but I have to learn to live with it.
I still do not use Logos 4 notes system to store my research in because other programs both free and paid do a better job and are far easier to use. To me no matter what level of bible study you are at one of the main and most important features is note taking, both how easy it is to use while doing the research and how easy it is to access later.
After using some of the other systems, the thought has crossed my mind that wow that is simple but effective, I wonder why Logos doesn't do that.
And some of you don't seem to understand that some folks can not just run out and buy a new computer, and during that 1-3 years before they can, they want a bible study program that runs well on what they got, most people have never bought a simple library to study the bible with until they get their first bible study program so laying out any amount over 100.00 to get them started is a shock already, let alone getting them to buy a new computer.
It had been almost two year since I had bought the latest programs from some other companies, and I had thought Logos 4 had left them in the dust, but now I see things differently. Hey and some of these companies have the "cloud" and some are also working on programs for phones and tablets, the competition should do Logos good.
But beyond a doubt one of my biggest shocks was to see that one of the best language programs ever, was now expanding into commentaries and actually allowing another company to build producst to run on their program. I didn't expect them to ever move out of their language for bible study only view, but they have.
It is a wild and crazy market out there, and Logos might not need to do a Logos 5 program yet, but they do need to clean up and speed up what they have.
In Christ,
Jim VanSchoonhoven
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Just for the record, I've had NO trouble with L4 on a 4.6 year old Toshiba laptop with 2 GB of RAM and a 7200 RPM hard drive running XP Home with Service Pack 3. To be sure, I've struggled with my slow learning curve, but that's to be expected of a non-techie in his mid-seventies.
Sure, note taking is clunky. And I miss two things from L3: 1) single clicking a word in Hebrew and Greek texts to get into the lexica (missed very much); 2) aligned lines in Gospel synopses set to Greek texts (missed not as much). But then there is a longer list than I can imagine of what, to me, are great improvements.
So, in my experience L4 performs as advertised and then some.
Easter blessings all around.
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Jim VanSchoonhoven said:
It is a wild and crazy market out there, and Logos might not need to do a Logos 5 program yet, but they do need to clean up and speed up what they have.
Jim what am i missing? which features in Logos do you want more speed? over the past 20 years i have had 3 different bible programs including Logos and they have all served me well but logos is light years ahead of the other 2 in speed and features or any thing you wont to mention. i have had no problems what- so- ever with Logos speed of anything else. but maybe i cant see past my nose. i have over $2,000 invested in logos with no regrets. I am retired and have a lot of time on my hands. I study the word as a hobby and occasionally teach a class I will never give up my Logos program but, would be interested in something else to go along with logos if it is the right program.
PS I ask you earlier in this thread to name these programs so i can seriously look at them. I don't think anyone would mind including Logos if you done this.
God bless you brother and i would like to say in all seriousness you have a right to you opinion as anyone else and in no way am i trying to take that away from you.
In Jesus Christ I love you
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Sam West said:
PS I ask you earlier in this thread to name these programs so i can seriously look at them. I don't think anyone would mind including Logos if you done this.
Hi Sam, Logos does dictate in the forum rules that we should not "promote" or link to other Bible software sites. By saying that program 'A' is a faster program or does "B' just as well is promoting the other program(s).
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See the comments here, for example. http://community.logos.com/forums/t/5280.aspx?PageIndex=1
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Rick Hypes said:Sam West said:
PS I ask you earlier in this thread to name these programs so i can seriously look at them. I don't think anyone would mind including Logos if you done this.
Hi Sam, Logos does dictate in the forum rules that we should not "promote" or link to other Bible software sites. By saying that program 'A' is a faster program or does "B' just as well is promoting the other program(s).
But also http://community.logos.com/forums/t/20261.aspx (which happens to include a very convenient list of Logos' 'competitors'!)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Jim,
I actually agree with much of what you said...the "other big bible software maker" B-works does some complex searches also....and lightening fast.
But I cannot think of another package that does ALL of the complex searches that Logos can do...possibly I'm just not informed.
IF it's a question of not needing to do anything more than simple "multiple word" searches or simple "proximity" searches...then don't be sad about recommending something less powerful (but evidently faster) to others....that's just the nature of preferring on product over another....you go with what you actually need.
I need to get to work...but not get to work at 140 mph......so a Ferrari is out for me....it doesn't fit my need....
However that old 98 Ford ranger of mine....does the trick. [:D]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Rick Hypes said:
Logos does dictate in the forum rules that we should not "promote" or link to other Bible software sites
"Is it okay to mention other products without advertising or linking to them? Yes!"
It seems that according to Dan Pritchett's post, that it should be OK to mention that WORDsearch is making resources for BibleWorks.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Hello Everyone,
I've been using Logos/Libronix for about 5 years now so I wouldn't say I'm a new user but I am new to the Logos website, forums and blog and I have to say that this is an amazing discussion.
I don't know a lot about how computers work but when I think of "bloated", I think of the overflowing book shelves in my office. When I think of "slow", I think about hours of sermon prep. much of which was taken up with finding the right resource, page and paragraph to study not the seconds that it takes for Logos 4 to bring me everything I need.
We've come a long way in a short time. I guess I'm just thankful for what we do have. It's made my life a whole lot easier.
In Christ,
Pastor Larry
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L.D. Young said:
I've been using Logos/Libronix for about 5 years now so I wouldn't say I'm a new user but I am new to the Logos website, forums and blog and I have to say that this is an amazing discussion.
I don't know a lot about how computers work but when I think of "bloated", I think of the overflowing book shelves in my office. When I think of "slow", I think about hours of sermon prep. much of which was taken up with finding the right resource, page and paragraph to study not the seconds that it takes for Logos 4 to bring me everything I need.
We've come a long way in a short time. I guess I'm just thankful for what we do have. It's made my life a whole lot easier.
Amen!
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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L.D. Young said:
Hello Everyone,
I've been using Logos/Libronix for about 5 years now so I wouldn't say I'm a new user but I am new to the Logos website, forums and blog and I have to say that this is an amazing discussion.
I don't know a lot about how computers work but when I think of "bloated", I think of the overflowing book shelves in my office. When I think of "slow", I think about hours of sermon prep. much of which was taken up with finding the right resource, page and paragraph to study not the seconds that it takes for Logos 4 to bring me everything I need.
We've come a long way in a short time. I guess I'm just thankful for what we do have. It's made my life a whole lot easier.
In Christ,
Pastor Larry
What fun is this? Just when everyone is getting all huffy and puffy, along comes pragmatism... [;)]
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Paul Golder said:L.D. Young said:
Hello Everyone,
I've been using Logos/Libronix for about 5 years now so I wouldn't say I'm a new user but I am new to the Logos website, forums and blog and I have to say that this is an amazing discussion.
I don't know a lot about how computers work but when I think of "bloated", I think of the overflowing book shelves in my office. When I think of "slow", I think about hours of sermon prep. much of which was taken up with finding the right resource, page and paragraph to study not the seconds that it takes for Logos 4 to bring me everything I need.
We've come a long way in a short time. I guess I'm just thankful for what we do have. It's made my life a whole lot easier.
In Christ,
Pastor Larry
What fun is this? Just when everyone is getting all huffy and puffy, along comes pragmatism...
Paul,
You're right. Sometimes I just can't help myself but I like a good debate as much as the next guy........ carry on! [:)]
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Mark Barnes said:
But also http://community.logos.com/forums/t/20261.aspx (which happens to include a very convenient list of Logos' 'competitors'!)
You are correct Mark, but there is a difference in promoting and mentioning. My response was to a request that specifically asked for the names of Bible programs that on average supposedly conducts Bible searches quicker on some users machines and on average is less expensive when it comes to building libraries.
I happen to believe that Jim made the correct call on this one by not wishing to mention a competitor's name or web site after saying the following:
Jim VanSchoonhoven said:I am afraid that Logos 4 has allowed
some of these other companies to make tremendous strides in catching up
to Logos, and their prices for the lower packages are very inexpensive,
and easy to add PD books to them.Jim VanSchoonhoven said:The point being as much as I love
Logos, because of the things it lacks something needs to be done if they
want to be more useful to the average believer than several of the
other companies are.I think that falls under promotion.
But I am not the forum police either (I'll let Logos do it), I just thought that I would make a suggestion on what I think that Logos' intent is.
One of my favorite posts in these forums is this one (which applies to me in this case): [:D]
[quote user=""]Honestly, folks who want to monitor others are annoying.
If Logos has a problem with a post they'll take up the issue. Mind your
own business.0 -
I have tried L4 on 1 desktop and two laptops and L4 runs slow on all of them. I just purchased a new computer and ran L4 on it in hopes it would work faster but it doesn't. The plain fact is that, at least for me, no matter what kind of computer I use it still runs slow.
Slow: start up, clicking on anything takes a few seconds to open, doing searches. Basicly everything is slow. I understand that for some people a few seconds isn't that bad and it is very fast vs going to the shelf but I am spoiled. When I click on something I want it to open up not to do nothing for 5-10 sec.
I don't have $2,000 to spend on some super computer to run L4. I want to spend that money on books so for me I stay with L3. Click and things pop open, click, click click. [:D]
God give you peace as you serve and love HIM
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James Chaisson said:
at least for me,
And
James Chaisson said:so for me I stay with L3.
Nicely phrased....accurate and personal.
(not being sarcastic)
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Mike Pettit said:
n my mind the biggest development in Logos 4 was the whole "cloud" concept,
I agree. And I think this is one of its strengths and a reason for going with Logos. Go everywhere apps are clearly the direction of the future.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bob Pritchett said:
Well, we're not going to throw it away and start over soon. I know that for sure. :-)
We do, of course, do that -- Logos 4 is the third ground up re-write after the first platform -- but it'll be years before we do it again.
If you want lean and fast, like some of our competitors who have simple search engines, small libraries, and don't try to do fancy stuff with reports and reverse interlinears, then http://biblia.com is probably an even better solution. You don't even have to install software, and there's a large library.
We'll also be investing more in support for mobile devices, which we believe will be the platform of choice for many users when they don't need a powerful tool on a desktop machine.
Thank you!!!!
__________
15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)
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Jim VanSchoonhoven said:
I would like to see logos pay more attention on the things the vast majority of believers would be using, however they are actually going the other way, and I am concerned about that, because I would love to see Logos as a program for everyone.
Bolding is mine. I'm not sure I agree with you here. Logos verse mapping is a major step forward for "the vast majority of believers". The lectionaries are moving in the right direction and it shouldn't be too much effort to truly support multi-passage studies. These are critical elements for "the vast majority of believers". However, notes and study guide templates are probably critical elements in selling them on Logos.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rick Hypes said:
One of my favorite posts in these forums is this one (which applies to me in this case):
[quote user=""]Honestly, folks who want to monitor others are annoying.
If Logos has a problem with a post they'll take up the issue. Mind your
own business.However, Logos does not employ monitors. They ask us to monitor ourselves.[:(]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I cannot imagine owning a PC as fast as what you have said... Perhaps after the data is in the cache, but I have a relatively powerful computer and to see your time more than 3450 % faster than mine is quite an eye opener and I sure would like to know the hardware you are using :-)
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Looking at the features list, not implementation of features, for some of Logos' "closest competitors", it appears to me that Logos remains the front runner in most areas. It appears that one or more competitors have implementations that surpass Logos in the following areas:
- Rather than just verse/chapter/book limits on searches one can limit by clause, sentence and paragraph.
- Searches by roots rather than just lemmas
- Some searches and statistics related to text analysis
- Historical timeline (similar to atlas feature)
- External resource manager
That is a rather short list of features. Only 1 & 2 do I consider "shortcomings" in Logos, And Logos' strength in discourse analysis, people-place-thing databases, the potential of the reading lists and topics seem to me to outweigh the shortcomings - or at least will when we get the last of the missing features.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Also, thank you, Bob Pritchett, for your post.
You are right-on as I think the youth would say.
No, Milford, not as the youth would say...as Shakespeare would say.
Shakespeare. Julius Caesar, Act III, Sc. II -- "I only speak right on."
[Y][H]
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Rick Hypes said:Mark Barnes said:
But also http://community.logos.com/forums/t/20261.aspx (which happens to include a very convenient list of Logos' 'competitors'!)
You are correct Mark, but there is a difference in promoting and mentioning. My response was to a request that specifically asked for the names of Bible programs that on average supposedly conducts Bible searches quicker on some users machines and on average is less expensive when it comes to building libraries.
I happen to believe that Jim made the correct call on this one by not wishing to mention a competitor's name or web site
I wasn't disagreeing with your decision, Rick [:)], just offering a further perspective.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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