Still NO PBB
PBB's promissed in the first year for those who converted and bought LOGOS4.
What is disappointing is that little to no inofrmation is released. This FREE ACCESSORY seems to be a question as some type of pay-for Add-in. Of course this was not the promiss was, PBB type accessory was to be an added extension of program.
Many books such as ANABAPTIST Books and off publishers like 'ALL' Harold Press, Rod & Staff, Lamp&Light, Scroll and other small publisher some of which are close to non-profit. Magazines like the FREE "Heartbeat of the Remnant" and other could all be put in this Book Form if released.
How long will LOGOS extend this promiss?
Update Please.
Thanks
Comments
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This seems to be the way Logos operates. They've said it will be released this quarter, which means by June 30, but other than that all we get is a "it is moving right along" (as of a couple days ago). So far, there is no indication they won't make the latest deadline, although with each beta that doesn't have it, the chances of another delay increase. But, I suppose that's still more info than a lot of companies provide.
Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer. Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App
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Fred,
I don't work for Logos so this is just my opinion....but...PBB's are coming...be sure of that...
The problem with Logos releasing dates is that unforseen things happen....so they release a target date...and we complain when they don't hit it....or they then don't release dates and we complain that they are not giving us enough information...
It's a "no-win" for them.....either way
But be that as it may....they are coming...I'm looking forward to them also! [:D]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
But be that as it may....they are coming...I'm looking forward to them also!
[Y]
Just hope the PB reader is still free. Or it at least carries over from our L3 unlock. [:D]
http://hombrereformado.blogspot.com/ Solo a Dios la Gloria Apoyo
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We have to pay for resources that use to be free with PBB in L3. Why would Logos want to change that?
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Correction. You pay for a Logos created, Logos tagged resource. The PBB's for instance downloaded from my site are all free. (notwithstanding the L4 timeline).Brian Dardis said:We have to pay for resources that use to be free with PBB in L3.
I've been bugging the programmers more than most of you I'm sure. [:D] And they are dilligently at work on it. I can't speak for Logos corp officially, but I have confidence in them. Delay's are not scheduled, they are just that - delays.
The little bits that we've gotten in news so far looks like much more than a simple conversion tool is being designed. I think we're looking at a massive structure in the background in terms of capability.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Tom Rach said:
Just hope the PB reader is still free. Or it at least carries over from our L3 unlock.
That's Logos' position so far...you never lose what you've purchased.....you never have to "re-pay" again for what you've paid for....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Tom Rach said:
Just hope the PB reader is still free. Or it at least carries over from our L3 unlock.
The reader will probably remain free. The writer was offered as an annual license and did cost a little. Is the PBB authoring license still available? I doubt it.The bigger issue I have is: Can anybody refer me to when Bob Pritchett said PBB resources would be FREE in Logos 4? (I didn't think so. )
No, we don't have to pay Logos twice for any resource. But we have not even paid Logos once for any PBBs.
Robert Pavich said:you never have to "re-pay" again for what you've paid for..
And if there are truly "no second class" books, as Bob has promised, there will be tagging on the order of all other Logos resources. This takes time & money. Someone has to pay for it. We have an examples in the paper publishing world where two editions are printed by the same publisher with one being far superior to the other. But there would be no perceivable differences under Logos 4. Why pay more for one than the other?Thomas Black said:You pay for a Logos created, Logos tagged resource.
This issue of "free" PBB resources competing with "official" Logos 4 public domain resources already published is why I doubt we will ever have the old model of truly FREE resources. In Libronix format we already had Calvin's Commentaries.,Brian Dardis said:We have to pay for resources that use to be free with PBB in L3. Why would Logos want to change that?
Also, I have heard the talk of selling PBB resources that users create in some kind of "bookstore." No one has addressed my repeated question of Public Domain works. If I create a PBB of a public domain work can anyone else also produce that title? If I my PBB is produced first but is inferior to the second person's effort, does my inferior offering block theirs from being offered through Logos?
real life example: I have an immense collection of theological journals out of copyright that have not been offered by Galaxie (or anyone else) yet. If my project gets produced as PBB resources will that preclude a "real" publisher like Galaxie from duplicating my effort? The PBB store could just become a "Vanity Press" full of unscholarly self-promotion. And if the store has a gate-keeper to ensure quality content there will be censorship of ideas, doctrines or "crazies", like some of my friends are.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
But there would be no perceivable differences under Logos 4.
I believe some of the tagging is manual or at least manually verified. PBB's are likely to be only as good as their creator - or at least that is where I think we should set our expectations.
Matthew C Jones said:No one has addressed my repeated question of Public Domain works. If I create a PBB of a public domain work can anyone else also produce that title?
From some issues with West Gallery music, I believe that the answer to this is somewhat dependent upon the country and your source of the public domain material.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
And if there are truly "no second class" books, as Bob has promised, there will be tagging on the order of all other Logos resources. This takes time & money. Someone has to pay for it.
I agree with MJ...I have always understood this to mean that PBB creators will have all the tools available to them as the Logos "publishers" do. In other words, PBB books will have the ability to be as fully tagged as "official" books. I never read it as a promise that Logos would "Logosify" all pre-pubs to make them just as good as the official versions.
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Matthew C Jones said:
Also, I have heard the talk of selling PBB resources that users create in some kind of "bookstore." No one has addressed my repeated question of Public Domain works. If I create a PBB of a public domain work can anyone else also produce that title? If I my PBB is produced first but is inferior to the second person's effort, does my inferior offering block theirs from being offered through Logos?
real life example: I have an immense collection of theological journals out of copyright that have not been offered by Galaxie (or anyone else) yet. If my project gets produced as PBB resources will that preclude a "real" publisher like Galaxie from duplicating my effort? The PBB store could just become a "Vanity Press" full of unscholarly self-promotion. And if the store has a gate-keeper to ensure quality content there will be censorship of ideas, doctrines or "crazies", like some of my friends are.I quote myself and MJ's response from 2009 to point out we will never have PBB like we used to. If Fred creates a lot of Anabaptist books in Logos 4 PBB and they are selling like hotcakes in the Logos.com bookstore, what prevents Logos or Galaxie, or Baker from producing the same resource and bumping the Fred version out of the store?
If you think this is not possible consider how Google Books has treated the public domain texts. Euclid's geometry used to be available as a scanned Google text. Then the University of Indiana decided to host a version on their school servers. Google promptly removed the online version. I have encountered this behavior many times in Google. Some university bookstore offers a print-on-demand version of a 1700's text with a copyright date of 2010 and Google removes the ancient book from their library as if big academia suddenly owns a copyright. Sounds about as familiar as the German Bible Society owning copyright to BHS and NA27, doesn't it?
We will never see a totally free PBB system again. Now I hope BobP comes along and proves me wrong. Meanwhile Fred, myself & others will just have to hope our special books show up in Community Pricing someday.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
Also, I have heard the talk of selling PBB resources that users create in some kind of "bookstore." No one has addressed my repeated question of Public Domain works. If I create a PBB of a public domain work can anyone else also produce that title? If I my PBB is produced first but is inferior to the second person's effort, does my inferior offering block theirs from being offered through Logos?
real life example: I have an immense collection of theological journals out of copyright that have not been offered by Galaxie (or anyone else) yet. If my project gets produced as PBB resources will that preclude a "real" publisher like Galaxie from duplicating my effort? The PBB store could just become a "Vanity Press" full of unscholarly self-promotion. And if the store has a gate-keeper to ensure quality content there will be censorship of ideas, doctrines or "crazies", like some of my friends are.This is the same situation with Kindle. I have seen several KJV bibles for Kindle that differ in navigation scheme. Where people compete is in creating the "best user experience" for a Public Domain work. If you create the absolute best "user experience" than I don't doubt that people will vote with their wallets. No, you cannot stop another person copying the Public Domain work and creating their own "user experience" nor do you have a right to (stop or block them).
I believe Logos would not cancel your product to promote theirs (based on what I have observed LOGOS do), but they do have a right to release their version of a Public Domain work. However, the whole idea of them controlling "the cloud" (as far as Logos resources are concerned) does not preclude this possibility. I would love for an alternative way to load PBBs (or any other legally purchased Logos resource) onto my computer. Do these exist?
Releasing PBBs is the same situation as producing a Tablet. "Tablet" as a concept is analogous to a Public Domain work. If you release it first and it becomes immensely popular (as a concept) - there will be others duplicating (the concept) with a little different execution. How do you compete in this environment? Well, first of all you have advantage of time and timing. But your main competitive edge is producing the best overall value for a reader, IMHO.
I personally would buy from the individual who produced a PBB title, rather than from a "real" publisher, who came much later.
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Vladimir Lukyanov said:
How do you compete in this environment? Well, first of all you have advantage of time and timing. But your main competitive edge is producing the best overall value for a reader, IMHO.
True. I have seen Kindle "books" (on Kindle for PC) which were nothing than badly converted scans, copied without investing any amount of thinking, let alone diligence, from a free websource. No ToC, no footnotes, full of errors. I think I have seen such stuff on other bible software in the past (no examples, as I try to steer very clear from such things).
That's exactly the reason why I think your last sentence doesn't fit into the argument - or could you explain?
Vladimir Lukyanov said:I personally would buy from the individual who produced a PBB title, rather than from a "real" publisher, who came much later.
I personally would buy from whoever produced the most "Logos-integrated" resource. I have no experience whatsoever with Libronix PBB resources, but I think, if someone just converted a PD PDF into a PBB format (I expect I can read it from within Logos and a full-library search will find text in it), I might want to take that for free or a very small fee as an addition to my library. If Logos or another real publisher came later and provided a full-fledged resource (footnotes pop up, automated links to other products and to reference works in my library, scrolling along with a bible text etc), I would consider buying from them.
Basically that's what we do all the time when we buy resources from Logos that are available as PD (or that we have in paper or as PDFs). I don't think that PBB will destroy Logos' business with PD works.
Just my thoughts,
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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MJ. Smith said:
Google books
Thank you for that link MJ. I had not searched for it for several years but it had been pulled from all "full views" when the University of Indiana put up an online version with links to Holland. I now notice those links are no more and Google Books does have the "full views" available in improved ebook formats.
My concern still stands regarding granting copyright strength protection for public domain works. I'm vehemently against it.
Just raising the issue has destroyed many a good publishing project. Richard Seltzer had a wonderful website called Blackmask that was essentially shut down when a comic book became the object of contention.
Here are three posts from past discussions that relate to my unaddressed concerns:
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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NewbieMick said:
I have no experience whatsoever with Libronix PBB resources ...
Actually, Mick, this is why you misunderstood me. Libronix PBB were nothing like terrible scanned Kindle books you referred to. There was a LOT of time and effort put into them.
NewbieMick said:If Logos or another real publisher came later and provided a
full-fledged resource (footnotes pop up, automated links to other
products and to reference works in my library, scrolling along with a
bible text etc), I would consider buying from them.New Logos4 PBB are going to be even better - they will be close to 100% as Logos produced books we have now. Why wouldn't I buy from a person who found the PD resource not yet in Logos4, typeset, corrected, formatted, possibly tagged it FIRST? A competing product would have to provide a whole lot of additional value for me to consider it.
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Matthew C Jones said:
Can anybody refer me to when Bob Pritchett said PBB resources would be FREE in Logos 4? (I didn't think so. )
Matthew, according to BobP:
Bob Pritchett said:...
C) Your content defaults to private, just like your notes and other information.
D) You'll have the option to share your books with "groups" of other
people. (And your notes, highlights, etc.) You'll have per-file control
of exactly what you share and who you share it with...-- Bob
So, in the same sense that Libronix PBBs were FREE (I know the "creator" had to purchase an addon and a licence) L4 PBBs will be free (if you just set it to private or chose to give away to people).
but from the standpoint of the creation cost - they would probably charge the "publisher" a fee to produce PBBs (even for personal use).
As industry standard, "paid" apps shell 30% to the marketplace for "distribution." Our relationship with Logos would be a little different, because they provide a lot of added value by potentially linking our content to already available resources, providing special tagging and even highlighting, etc., so % that we pay to Logos to compile our L4 PBBs can be a lot greater.
I will be happy with a startup fee and an annual license (similar to L3) to produce PBBs for personal use. I would expect to pay 30+% from "for sale" PBBs with little or no upfront cost.
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Matthew C Jones said:
My concern still stands regarding granting copyright strength protection for public domain works.
That is something that is strictly a legal matter not a PBB or Logos issue. And the answer to that varies by country. What would interest me would be to know which laws would apply - those of the US (Logos), the creator's country or the country of the text used by the creator.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Vladimir Lukyanov said:
So, in the same sense that Libronix PBBs were FREE (I know the "creator" had to purchase an addon and a licence) L4 PBBs will be free
How much was that annual PBB authoring license under Libronix? Around $100 give or take, wasn't it? I predict the final cost for a PBB will be substantially higher under Logos 4. For any prolific producer it would be cost prohibitive to just give them away. There will be some cost to the end-users. One hot-selling title will end up reaping $1000~$5000 as compared to the unlimited $100 annual fee in L3.
(You know, it reminds me a lot of Napster [:D] )
Again, I say we will not have the 990+ Libronix PBBs converted to L4. And we will not have Carte Blanche to produce anything that competes with a planned Logos resource. If Logos plans to introduce The Millennial Harbinger into Community Pricing or Pre-Pubs, I seriously doubt I could offer it as a PBB in the Logos 4 bookstore.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew, I still hold to the glass half-full theory.[;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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PBB – I am even more confused – please clarify – thanks
Any OFFICIAL Logos word on any of this??
From Thomas Black “”The PBB's for instance downloaded from my site are all free”” [implying that they will also be in L4-PBB]
Also saw comments like “”there will be tagging on the order of all other Logos resources. This takes time & money. Someone has to pay for it.””
[Who will do that tagging? – will we submit a source to LOGOS and they do ALL of the tagging work? Or will we have to submit extra files with the tagging data and LOGOS just compile it as submitted. – as in if we want it tagged then we do the work] [[Me thinks that we do it or it will not get done - Is Logos going to add staff to tag all of our PBBs??]
Saw mention of “Logos.com bookstore” [as in “I have heard the talk of selling PBB resources that users create in some kind of "bookstore." ”]
[[Also the OLD way {L3} there were two license levels: Personal – only readable on your account and Publisher – readable by anyone with a base package]]
From what I read between the lines is that Logos has said NOTHING and we are all just speculating. Yes??0 -
David Ames said:
From what I read between the lines is that Logos has said NOTHING and we are all just speculating. Yes??
Not necessarily true, they have weighed in at times. From what I remember they said that PBB's will be better than the old way...they will be more like real resources with tagging...and they will be stored now on some Logos server.
They did talk about users publishing versions of documents as was mentioned above so the answer is YES we speculate a lot around here but Logos has not been silent on this.... [:D]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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David Ames said:
From Thomas Black “”The PBB's for instance downloaded from my site are all free”” [implying that they will also be in L4-PBB]
Thomas' PBB are for L3 - by design they are all FREE. And no, L3 PBBs are not compatible with L4. They could be made compatible by being compiled by Logos servers.David Ames said:Also saw comments like “”there will be tagging on the order of all other Logos resources. This takes time & money. Someone has to pay for it.””
[Who will do that tagging? – will we submit a source to LOGOS and they do ALL of the tagging work? Or will we have to submit extra files with the tagging data and LOGOS just compile it as submitted. – as in if we want it tagged then we do the work] [[Me thinks that we do it or it will not get done - Is Logos going to add staff to tag all of our PBBs??]No, compiling/tagging, etc., as I understand it, will be an automated process, similar to the feature of making all scripture references "linkable." In my understanding, new tagging will go a lot further than that, with references to {some/most/all} existing resources capable of being linked. I assume, however, that there will be a big amount of work required from the creator of PBBs in terms of creating a formatting structure that would yield a Table of Contents, footnotes, etc.
What would be cool (since the compiled files will be cloud hosted) is Logos periodically running the compilation/tagging process to link to newer resources once they get added to the library.
David Ames said:Saw mention of “Logos.com bookstore” [as in “I have heard the talk of selling PBB resources that users create in some kind of "bookstore." ”]
[[Also the OLD way {L3} there were two license levels: Personal – only readable on your account and Publisher – readable by anyone with a base package]]
From what I read between the lines is that Logos has said NOTHING and we are all just speculating. Yes??Yes and no. Logos did mention a bookstore concept, where you would submit your PBB for others to buy. Logos would probably charge you some kind of a license fee to be able to create content, and then would take a % of the sale as well. This is industry standard. Logos did say that compiling and licensing will take place on their servers. Logos did mention that NEW L4 PBBs will be very similar to regular L4 resources and not "second class citizens."
But as far as specifics about how much it would cost PBB creator, how PBBs will be distributed, % of sale retained by Logos, DATE WHEN PBBs WILL BE ROLLED OUT - are all conjecture at this point.
I do think, however, that PBBs will be readable by all levels of L4. Logos may continue the policy of 2 License types (Personal and for-profit) for PBB creators.
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Nope. That is what Fred Morgan started this thread for. Fred has a passion to see Anabaptist resources in Logos and figures the only way that will happen any time soon is if users submit those materials as PBBs.David Ames said:Any OFFICIAL Logos word on any of this??
Thomas never stated PBBs would be free in Logos 4 and neither has Bob Pritchett. Many have assumed that will be the case. I assume it won't due to the economic realities.David Ames said:From Thomas Black “”The PBB's for instance downloaded from my site are all free”” [implying that they will also be in L4-PBB]
David Ames said:From what I read between the lines is that Logos has said NOTHING and we are all just speculating. Yes?? I just want everyone to realize there has yet to be an "official" statement that PBBs will be free. There have been official "conjectures" by Bob Pritchett himself on the direction he sees PBBs going. ("bookstore", ""compiled on Logos servers", "no second class citizens" -- this level of quality costs money. Somebody has to foot the bill.)Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Vladimir Lukyanov said:
Thomas' PBB are for L3 - by design they are all FREE. And no, L3 PBBs are not compatible with L4. They could be made compatible by being compiled by Logos servers.
Why would Logos ever recompile Barnes Notes and Calvin's Commentaries (both available as Libronix PBBs) into Logos 4 PBBs? I predict the eventual demise of the Libronix PBB world. Logos no longer sells a license to create PBBs for Libronix. Logos no longer sells Libronix base packages (that include the PBB reader license) at all. The only alternative users had for creating PBB content was Builder-Builder by John McComb. The link to that program on StillTruth is broken. A search of the internet produces nothing. So there is no way a user can create FREE content for others in Logos 4. It is going to cost someone some money.
Vladimir Lukyanov said:I do think, however, that PBBs will be readable by all levels of L4. Logos may continue the policy of 2 License types (Personal and for-profit) for PBB creators.
(highlight mine) But Logos did not continue the policy. Although you can still buy the Personal Book Builder Video Tutorial Volumes 1-2 for $39.99 on Logos.com you can not buy the Libronix Personal Book Builder (PBB) license it teaches you how to use.
If Fred and others want to create FREE resources they will have to settle for PDF or something else. The "cloud-syncing" environment is not FREE-friendly and Libronix 3 is no longer an option.
edit: I imagine Fred would be thrilled to see an Anabaptist Collection in Community Pricing or Pre-Pub. The PBB question was probably his last hope to get these resources quickly. Am I right Fred, or did I miss the issue completely?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Although you can still buy the Personal Book Builder Video Tutorial Volumes 1-2 for $39.99 on Logos.com
Interesting link:
I guess Logos' definition of "brand new" is as ... unique ... as their definition of "soon"... [:P]
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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I am getting very uncomfortable with these PBB threads - too much speculation that doesn't follow from the information we have received. This speculation creates two uneccesary situations:
- People becoming unhappy with PBBs before they even come out because of what they've read
- People being unhappy with PBBs after they come out because they don't meet expectations
Can't we wait until we've seen how they work before getting everyone all worked up?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I am getting very uncomfortable with these PBB threads - too much speculation that doesn't follow from the information we have received. This speculation creates two uneccesary situations:
- People becoming unhappy with PBBs before they even come out because of what they've read
- People being unhappy with PBBs after they come out because they don't meet expectations
Can't we wait until we've seen how they work before getting everyone all worked up?
[Y]
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MJ. Smith said:
Can't we wait until we've seen how they work before getting everyone all worked up?
If we only talked about what we know about there wouldn't be ANY posts on the forums! [:D]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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MJ. Smith said:
too much speculation that doesn't follow from the information we have received.
I have not made one unfounded prediction. Unfortunately, I am right more often than I like to be:
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/32765.aspx?PageIndex=1
Robert Pavich said:If we only talked about what we know about there wouldn't be ANY posts on the forums!
Hear, hear! [:P]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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MJ. Smith said:
I am getting very uncomfortable with these PBB threads - too much speculation that doesn't follow from the information we have received. This speculation creates two uneccesary situations:
- People becoming unhappy with PBBs before they even come out because of what they've read
- People being unhappy with PBBs after they come out because they don't meet expectations
Can't we wait until we've seen how they work before getting everyone all worked up?
I think you are very right Martha. But how long... how long... [:(]
Bohuslav
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I wish everyone was excited about Christ's return as you all are about the second coming of PBB. [:S] Better than PBB we have the inspired, written Word of God and awesome helps like no one else has had this far in church history. Don't get me wrong, I am looking forward to PBB like the next guy, especially John Gill, but I live in East TN and seeing the firstfruits of God's judgement soon to fall on this earth and the misery of this fallen world, a lot of things are not near as important as they used to be...
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posted twice for some reason...
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Michael Lyman said:
awesome helps like no one else has had this far in church history
Really? Logos beats walking around Galilee with Jesus, crossing Asia Minor with Paul, and sitting at the feet of John the Apostle?
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Michael Lyman said:
I wish everyone was excited about Christ's return as you all are about the second coming of PBB
Now that's funny! [:O]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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fgh said:Michael Lyman said:
awesome helps like no one else has had this far in church history
Really? Logos beats walking around Galilee with Jesus, crossing Asia Minor with Paul, and sitting at the feet of John the Apostle?
Totally off topic here and normally I resist getting sucked in ...but
In my opinion YES!
Because we have the SAME Holy Spirit that empowered them to accomplish their missions during their appointed times on this earth. We have the written WORD and our heavenly Father has graciously given us the technology to access and search it quickly using Bible software today to help us accomplish our missions and grow in Him. This is OUR appointed time (Acts 17:26) and I am thankful to be living during this time period (I continually thank Him). I haven't been stoned, jailed or persecuted to the point of death and that threat doesn't seem likely in the country that I live in, but that could quickly change. Just a reminder of Paul's life...2 Cor. 11:23-33. (Scripture references made quick and easy using Bible search technology.) Another note for women...women back then didn't have the privileges that western women have today. It was not an easy life.There are exciting days ahead. OUR GOD REIGNS OVER ALL and His will and purposes will be accomplished! PRAISE HIM in all things!
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Praiser said:
This is OUR appointed time (Acts 17:26) and I am thankful to be living during this time period (I continually thank Him).
Verily, Verily, I agree with you Praiser. [A] This is the best time to be alive! And when you think about it for a minute, it is an awesome thing that God has chosen to use Bible software (Logos and others) to help the Church in these days. We are so blessed in comparison to the believers who have gone before us. We will certainly be called to account for what we did with the "so much more" we have been given.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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MJ. Smith said:
I am getting very uncomfortable with these PBB threads - too much speculation that doesn't follow from the information we have received. This speculation creates two uneccesary situations:
- People becoming unhappy with PBBs before they even come out because of what they've read
- People being unhappy with PBBs after they come out because they don't meet expectations
Can't we wait until we've seen how they work before getting everyone all worked up?
I am looking forward to learning what Logos has up their sleeves. I'm sorta disappointed they don't have it out yet, but at the same time, I know that they are working on it and working the bugs out before they go public.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
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Matthew C Jones said:
Why would Logos ever recompile Barnes Notes and Calvin's Commentaries (both available as Libronix PBBs) into Logos 4 PBBs?
It is a good legal question whether Logos has a right to block an otherwise legal PBB that is competing with a logos resource. However, do not underestimate the potential profit to be made from charging a % of PBB sale. It could be a bigger market than for Logos to produce Public Domain works themselves.
I heard it somewhere (but could not find substantiating proof easily) that some retail stores make MORE money through financing their product, rather than product itself. Same may be true of ebooks.
Matthew C Jones said:If Fred and others want to create FREE resources they will have to
settle for PDF or something else. The "cloud-syncing" environment is not
FREE-friendly and Libronix 3 is no longer an option.I agree that "cloud-syncing" environment is not
FREE-friendly.Libronix (L3) is still the option for those that have the (PBB) license.
But what about the Sermon Addon? I realize that not everyone has it, but it is still available for sale. Of course, it is not as functional as PBB, but it is workable, it is L4 "compliant" AND as I understand, you can share the individual files among users (before they are compiled into a"book"). I think this is awesome !
Vladimir
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MJ. Smith said:
This speculation creates two uneccesary situations:
:):) Martha, I know better than to get in a logic argument with you.... but.... isn't your statement also a speculation? :)that was a rhetorical question. Actually, I will admit that I am speculating about this issue for 2 reasons (and please forgive me, I did not mean to create any discontent)
1. I cannot wait for NEW AND IMPROVED, AWESOME, FIRST CLASS CITIZEN PBBs to come out
2. If there is a remote chance that these posts provide feedback to LOGOS prior to PBB policy set, I wanted to verbalize my expectations and allow others to do the same. So far many people chimed in and stated that they were ok with PBBs costing SOME to create and/or read, etc. I think this is great!
Too often we complain after the fact, not realizing that Libronix had a tool to provide feedback to LOGOS about features used by most people most often. Many people turned it off (myself included). Well, LOGOS provided a feedback tool via forums...
MJ. Smith said:- People becoming unhappy with PBBs before they even come out because of what they've read
- People being unhappy with PBBs after they come out because they don't meet expectations
Someone being unhappy is his/her personal decision he/she makes before the Lord. Some people are unhappy no matter what, this is a fact. Verbalizing expectations/wishes and voicing concerns are positive things (we CAN DREAM BIG, can't we?).
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MJ. Smith said:
I am getting very uncomfortable with these PBB threads - too much speculation that doesn't follow from the information we have received. This speculation creates two uneccesary situations:
- People becoming unhappy with PBBs before they even come out because of what they've read
- People being unhappy with PBBs after they come out because they don't meet expectations
Can't we wait until we've seen how they work before getting everyone all worked up?
[Y]
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[y]MJ. Smith said:Can't we wait until we've seen how they work before getting everyone all worked up?
What a lot of smoke and noise from so very little information.
Patience my friends, patience. Pitchforks and torches are not needful, nor helpful.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Not really. Logos does not sell the PBB authoring license anymore. And the only alternative (Builder-Builder) can't be found on the internet.Vladimir Lukyanov said:Libronix (L3) is still the option for those that have the (PBB) license.
That is one reason I was so vocal.Vladimir Lukyanov said:If there is a remote chance that these posts provide feedback to LOGOS prior to PBB policy set, I wanted to verbalize my expectations and allow others to do the same.
GMAC is the only branch of General Motors that reports a profit to the IRS. They became highly profitable when they started financing customer purchases of competing products. GM also bought lots of stock in Toyota. (Didn't Microsoft buy almost half of Apple's stock. once?) Maybe Logos can resurrect this model of pre-Industrial Revolution economy. It is certainly cheaper than hiring 100 new employees.Vladimir Lukyanov said:I heard it somewhere (but could not find substantiating proof easily) that some retail stores make MORE money through financing their product, rather than product itself. Same may be true of ebooks.
I love Logos 4. And I will choose Logos produced resources over L3 PBBs every time. I'm hoping there will still be an avenue for people to produce works as a labor of love and offer them free, if they so desire. Matthew 26:11 Somebody needs to reach the poor.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I am sorry, I was WAY WRONG!!! Amazon takes 30-65% commission when you sell a kindle work. Creator gets 35-70% of the sale based on whether it is a Public Domain or Personal work. As I understand, Apple takes 30% in its' AppStore.
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Matthew C Jones said:
I love Logos 4. And I will choose Logos produced resources over L3 PBBs every time. I'm hoping there will still be an avenue for people to produce works as a labor of love and offer them free, if they so desire. Matthew 26:11 Somebody needs to reach the poor.
As long as there's the option to download a file and manually add it into Logos, there's the possibility that a third-party forum will develop where users can share their PBB's. It would be nice if Logos allowed users to post PBB's with $0 cost to the new PBB store (assuming said store actually makes an appearance).
Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer. Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App
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Yes, I agree totally that we have the same Holy Spirit and that Jesus has always been building His church and the gates of hell have never for one instant withstood Him. But I also believe the prophecy of Daniel that at the end of the age knowledge will increase. Few people had access to the written word for hundreds of years. Since the printing press and cheap editions of the Bible, many people have many copies in their home and more and more people have it translated into their mother tongues as well. Logos and other software have made it increasingly more easy (forgive my grammar) to compare texts, original languages and commentaries... just as the Holy Spirit prophesied through Daniel.
"At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.
Daniel 12:1-13"But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?"
Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand."And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
"But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.
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Maybe I have missed something in all of this. I thought the product was "Personal" Book Builder. originally designed to take works written by the PBB author and allowing it to be integrated into the digital library. Consequently, the books did not have all the "bells and whistles" of the commercially produced units. But they were for "personal" use, not commercial.
We have been blessed that folks like Thomas have compiled many works where the copyright has expired and the product has moved into the public domain. I have taken advantage of these resources, but this was probably not the original intent of the product.
Some are now wanting to profit from these works that are public domain through the PBB module. This makes it no longer a "PBB," but a commercial product. If you want to sell your work (or, at the very least, be compensated for you time and effort), contact Logos about their commercial production agreement. And reserve judgment for yourself as you seek to use the PBB product beyond its original "personal" intent.
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Yes, you are missing a few "somethings" in the big picture.
- PBB for strictly personal use was always free in Logos. You just could not share them.
- Logos expanded that "original 'personal' intent" by offering a paid-for license. An industry expectation was set.
- PBB authoring (annual license fee) was designed so you could produce books for others to read.
- It is not commercial but is certainly more than "personal."
- I know of no PBBs that were ever sold.
- All authors produced them as a labor of love to share freely.
- Every book on StillTruth was produced to share with you & others. (Thomas Black collected and hosts them. Many authors compiled them.)
- Whoever created them either had to pay a Logos license fee or use Builder-Builder (a free authoring program developed by John McComb.)
- The Logos PBB authoring license is no longer for sale at any price.
- Builder-Builder is not to be found on the internet anymore.
- Unless you have a copy of Builder-Builder, you can not produce any more Libronix PBBs.
- So practically, Libronix PBB development is dead.
edited: Red highlight added AFTER I've been proven wrong on other points by Richard. Makes me feel a little better.
The user created books idea is not unique to Logos. Most Bible software programs have or had this feature. PC Study Bible, eSword, QuickVerse, and several others had authoring programs. Some still do. Many people who write books want others to read them. Over 990 works were published to help others (yourself included) without financial remuneration. I can't wait for the release of a PBB type capability in Logos 4. It will greatly expand the production of Logos based resources. If groups of authors can collaborate on large projects they can come to fruition much quicker.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Yes, you are missing a few "somethings" in the big picture.
- PBB for strictly personal use was always free in Logos. You just could not share them.
No it wasn't. The PBB even for strictly personal use was also a paid add-in to Libronix.
Matthew C Jones said:I know of no PBBs that were ever sold.
The Libronix PBB license agreement prohibited the sale of PBB's.
Matthew C Jones said:Whoever created them either had to pay a Logos license fee or use Builder-Builder (a free authoring program developed by John McComb.)
As far as I know Builder-Builder was a tool designed by John McComb to make using the PBB easier. It could not be used in place of the PBB tool to compile PBB's.
Another missing piece is that Logos has specifically stated that they are considering opening a 'store' where those who develop PBB's in the new format may sell them to others. It's yet to be seen how Logos will handle the production/sale of PBB's that seem to duplicate resources Logos offers for sale. Nor do we know if the PBB will require a separate license for which we will be required to pay a one-time or subscription type fee, or if it will be offered for free.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
No it wasn't. The PBB even for strictly personal use was also a paid add-in to Libronix.
You are correct Richard: http://www.logos.com/pbb Thanks.
Richard DeRuiter said:As far as I know Builder-Builder was a tool designed by John McComb to make using the PBB easier. It could not be used in place of the PBB tool to compile PBB's.
That is not my understanding of it. I have the program but never tried to use it. Maybe Thomas will confirm??
Whatever the original intent & design of the PBB idea, the future will undoubtedly cost somebody something. I'm not against that practice so long as nobody is counting on a free ride.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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