What about the graphical query?
Comments
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Dave,
I didn't realize that was possible in L3! I never used text queries much because of the graphical query tool.
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David B Phillips said:
Mike, a side question for you, as you're the most familiar with the Cascadia graphs. What do the asterisks imply in the Cascadia graphs? I looked through the glossary, but they weren't mentioned. Thanks!
They marks the heads of phrases. You can see it pretty clearly here in Matthew :
As you can see, the Verb is the head of the clause, and in the Subject noun phrase, the noun υἱὸς is the only one with asterisks all the way up to the highest NP level. Likewise, the Genitive NP has it's own head, but isn't a head any higher than that because it is dependent upon the ὁ υἱὸς.
With that said, I take issue with their head analysis of the prepositional phrase at the end of this and the gloss given for ὐπ', which appears to be following the Lexham Greek-English Interlinear. It should be: "in this way also the Son of Man is going to suffer by them." Syntactically, ὐπ' (by) should be treated as the head of its phrase because prepositions function partially like verbs in that they require an Object. Besides, that's why its called a prepositional phrase: Verbs are the heads of VPs, Nouns are the heads of NPs, and Prepositions are the heads of PPs.
Anyway, that's a side issue. The first part is the answer to your question.
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The discussion from this thread http://community.logos.com/forums/p/5280/41725.aspx has increased my concern that usage statistics from L3 might not be the best basis for making a decision concerning the future of advanced morphological queries.
I wonder how much the usage stats reflect the fact that people have found competitive products to be more effective for advanced morphological queries rather than reflecting the desire for Logos to improve its capabilities in this area.
It seems odd that Logos is so aggressively pushing the envelope when it comes to syntactical searching (which I love and appreciate) but backing up a bit when it comes to morphological searching.
I have a much larger investment in Logos than any competitive product and would love to see Logos be my only Bible software solution. I would prefer to spend my money on additional resources than have to buy Bible texts in multiple platforms.
I think improving the graphical query might bring more return on investment than the usage statistics imply.
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Russ,
I share your concern.
there is a very small gap that I believe that Logos should fill...the gap left by the capabilities of the Graphical Query.
If there are things that it could do....that now our current tools cannot but another software competitor can do...then that's not a good thing.
Either modify the current tools to give that functionality, or bring back the Graphical Query...
Logos' strength is cutting edge searching...let's keep it that way...
Logos?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
Russ,
I share your concern.
there is a very small gap that I believe that Logos should fill...the gap left by the capabilities of the Graphical Query.
If there are things that it could do....that now our current tools cannot but another software competitor can do...then that's not a good thing.
Either modify the current tools to give that functionality, or bring back the Graphical Query...
Logos' strength is cutting edge searching...let's keep it that way...
Logos?
Hear, hear!
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin Becker said:Robert Pavich said:
Russ,
I share your concern.
there is a very small gap that I believe that Logos should fill...the gap left by the capabilities of the Graphical Query.
If there are things that it could do....that now our current tools cannot but another software competitor can do...then that's not a good thing.
Either modify the current tools to give that functionality, or bring back the Graphical Query...
Logos' strength is cutting edge searching...let's keep it that way...
Logos?
Hear, hear!
Agreed as well. It would be great to have this back.
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Mike Aubrey said:
They marks the heads of phrases. You can see it pretty clearly here in Matthew :
Yes. That is very helpful. Thanks! I'm starting to get used to looking at Cascadia after using opentext.org for so long. I like that the taggings actually sound like Greek grammar [8-|].
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At ETS we got to talk to a graphical query user in person, who made a compelling case for some improvements in our non-syntax morph searching. We'll work on improving this soon, though I can't yet say if it'll be the old graphical query or something newer (and better!).
Thanks for the feedback on this!
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Bob,
that's good to hear....I'm sure it will be outstanding!
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Bob,
That is great news! I'm looking forward to it [:)]
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Bob Pritchett said:
At ETS we got to talk to a graphical query user in person, who made a compelling case for some improvements in our non-syntax morph searching. We'll work on improving this soon, though I can't yet say if it'll be the old graphical query or something newer (and better!).
This will be most welcome!
Thanks, Bob.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bob Pritchett said:
We'll work on improving this soon, though I can't yet say if it'll be the old graphical query or something newer (and better!).
If the implementation of the new datasheet view of morphological results in the 4a beta is an indication of things to come, I am greatly encouraged.
I love the drag and drop reordering. Very, very nice!
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Bob Pritchett said:
At ETS we got to talk to a graphical query user in person, who made a compelling case for some improvements in our non-syntax morph searching. We'll work on improving this soon, though I can't yet say if it'll be the old graphical query or something newer (and better!).
Thanks for the feedback on this!
Excellent! Thanks for update. As always it's encouraging to hear what's coming down the pike.
Prov. 15:23
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Bob Pritchett said:
At ETS we got to talk to a graphical query user in person, who made a compelling case for some improvements in our non-syntax morph searching. We'll work on improving this soon, though I can't yet say if it'll be the old graphical query or something newer (and better!).
[Y]
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Excellent news! I too would love to see a graphical morph search engine reinstated.
I haven't used the v3.0 graphical search engine myself, but I have worked with your competitor's and I found it very easy to use.
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I'm believing that within a year, Logos4 will be the undisputed King of Bible-software. Guess I just believe in Logos and truly think Bob's vision is to accomplish just that--Produce the very best Bible-software program in the world! As I said in another post, I am liking L4 more and more! Blessings to Bob and all the folks at LOGOS !
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I too rely on the graphical query editor for Greek classes. One common searching strategy I use is to search for morph examples that use the vocabulary from Mounce. I use the word list option in the graphical query editor to cut and paste in the vocab I want. Then I use a Ref Morph to set the morph criteria and then I link them as the same. In a matter of seconds I have the list of verses to go over in class.
I also can't seem to figure out syntax queries to accomplish what I can describe easily with a graphical morph query. For instance, I wanted to find all instances of predicate adjectives that precede the subject nominative and have no verb. It took a few seconds using the GQE and was visually easy to follow. My only false positives related to constructs like πας. I decided to try to perform the same using an OpenText syntax search. I began by opening in OpenText Clause Analyzer one of the verses returned from GQE search. I mimicked the query after that verse layout. It took about 10 tries, mainly because I don't really understand the "Immediate child" concept yet. When I finally turned them all off, I got a list of 12 verse, as opposed to the 30+ true hits using GQE. Some were the same, some were different. On top of that, I really cannot even explain what it did, why it found a few GQE did not and why it missed so many.
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HaroldAKime said:
For instance, I wanted to find all instances of predicate adjectives that precede the subject nominative and have no verb.
Try this in Cascadia. If you want to see εἰμί & γίνομαι clauses in there just remove the "Verbal Complement" tag from the last "Not Present" Clause Function.
EDITED TO CHANGE PICTURE.
Also, Harold, if you could post the exact Opentext.org search that you performed, we might be able to work through why you received the results that you did. The search above gave me 133 hits.
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I replicated your search and it looks very good! Thanks,
Concerning my OpenText search, I created it in Logos 3.0 but did not save it. So, I tried to recreate it in Logos 4.0 (below). It returns 66 items but they are not correct. It seems that I need to have both components coming off of Clause1 but I cannot get the second component to link with Clause1.
Also, can do the following with Morph or Syntax searches I as I did in the GQE?
- quickly paste a list of Lemma for a search
- share my searches (not just picture of them) with my students
Thanks for the help!
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Click (and hold) clause component 1 and drop it on Clause component 2, that should attach it to Clause one.
Prov. 15:23
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HaroldAKime said:
Concerning my OpenText search, I created it in Logos 3.0 but did not save it. So, I tried to recreate it in Logos 4.0 (below). It returns 66 items but they are not correct. It seems that I need to have both components coming off of Clause1 but I cannot get the second component to link with Clause1.
Yes, bot components need to be coming off Clause 1. As for other problems with false hits, you're also going to need to add:
Clause Component
Clause Category = Predicator -- NOT PRESENTif you want to specify to the database that you want verbless clauses.
With those adjustments, I get 69 hits -- they all look okay. I'd be curious about the difference between the two search results...
Here's what I did:
Clause --> Clause Component
Clause Category = Verb NOT PRESENT
--> Clause Component --> Word Group --> Head Term --> Word (Adjective, Nominative)
Clause Category = Complement
--> Clause Component -->Word Group --> Head Term --> Word (Noun, Nominative)
Clause Category = Subject
HaroldAKime said:Also, can do the following with Morph or Syntax searches I as I did in the GQE?
- quickly paste a list of Lemma for a search
- share my searches (not just picture of them) with my students
I'm not sure. It's not something I've tried to do. I don't think there's a way to quickly paste a list of Lemma, but in the most recent Beta version, we're testing a feature that very nicely will sort by Lemma (or just about anything else you can think of). It's incredibly handy and I am really excited about it.
As for sharing searches, I don't know. My guess is "No" because of the new system for managing files is less transparent, but I haven't fiddled with it at all, so I really can't say for sure.
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Really need a better search interface than the text-entry search window. Something similar to the Syntax Search tool, but for straight NA27 morphology/construction searches.
I'm boggled that more people aren't speaking up on this. I guess I'll just keep using BW 6.0 until this is done.
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Paul Gibbs said:
Really need a better search interface than the text-entry search window. Something similar to the Syntax Search tool, but for straight NA27 morphology/construction searches.
I'm boggled that more people aren't speaking up on this. I guess I'll just keep using BW 6.0 until this is done.
There definitely are concerns and you could search the forum to see those threads. I suspect many are still using L3 for morphological searches.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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David B Phillips said:
If you have a specific question about how to search for something, post it here!
I'm not very experienced at the morph & graphical queries, but want to learn more so I want to take you up on your offer of help regarding a recent topic I was researching.
I want to search the entire NA27 for "the faith", that is an article followed by the noun where they agree in case and number ( I think all possibilities are singular) while the set can be any case. The article should be say within 2 or 3 words of the noun. (Question: when you say WITHIN 3 words, is that count inclusive of the two words being specified, thus allowing only one intervening word or does that allow 2 intervening words?)
Thanks.
Have a great day,
jmac0 -
Jim said:
I want to search the entire NA27 for "the faith", that is an article followed by the noun where they agree in case and number ( I think all possibilities are singular) while the set can be any case. The article should be say within 2 or 3 words of the noun. (Question: when you say WITHIN 3 words, is that count inclusive of the two words being specified, thus allowing only one intervening word or does that allow 2 intervening words?)
Jim,
This did it for me:
lemma:ὁ@D?S BEFORE 2 words lemma:πίστις@N?S
Morph search in NA27; articles that are singular before two words "pistis" that is also a singular noun.
If you have beta you can sort them in analysis view by case....
what you don't get from this is the "case agreement thing"
You could also do it like this:
lemma:ὁ@DNS BEFORE 2 words lemma:πίστις@NNS (For nominative)
And do it for all of the cases and have a separate passage list for each or put them into a spread sheet...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Jim said:
(Question: when you say WITHIN 3 words, is that count inclusive of the two words being specified, thus allowing only one intervening word or does that allow 2 intervening words?)
WITHIN 3 Words allows 2 intervening words to exist.
I checked this by running this search with WITHIN 2 and WITHIN 3 and created passage lists for both. I then subtracted the WITHIN 2 results from the WITHIN 3 results and got these results
Hope this helps.
EDIT: I can't remember if you're running the Beta. Passage lists are from the 4.0c Beta if you didn't know that already.
Prov. 15:23
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Jim said:
that is an article followed by the noun where they agree in case and number
In order to specify that there is agreement with case and number, a syntax search can be used:
Word 1 is set to agree with word 2 in both case and number
I get 101 results with this search. The benefit of a syntax search over a simple morphological search in this case is that you can make sure the article is actually governing the noun.
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David B Phillips said:
In order to specify that there is agreement with case and number, a syntax search can be used:
Thank you for your diagram. I tried to duplicate it but could only create Clause 1 after that , I couldn't make anything that matches yours so I'm lost.
Have a great day,
jmac0 -
Jim said:
Thank you for your diagram. I tried to duplicate it but could only create Clause 1 after that , I couldn't make anything that matches yours so I'm lost.
tried to duplicate it too .
Found i needed Opentext.org (as Anderson Forbes is the default)
with default Anderson Forbes (No Clause Component avail.)
with OpenText.org
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steve clark said:
Found i needed Opentext.org (as Anderson Forbes is the default)
with default Anderson Forbes (No Clause Component avail.)
Yes, sorry for failing to mention that [:$]
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