Where did this feature go: topic browser
Comments
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I want to add my voice requesting the return/implementation of the Topic Browser in Logos 4 - for me it was the most useful type of search in Logos 3 and the one that I used most frequently. It acted as a kind of index page for my whole collection - as Harry says, filtering out the "noise" that clutters Logos 4's literalistic "Google" style searching, and as Mark says, offering sub-topics to help locate the exact nuance of the term I had in mind when I started the search.
I believe that Logos tagged many of their resources for significant topics and references and that this tagging was time consuming and expensive (which is why not every Logos book featured this type of tagging - usually the higher value ones). I remember them trumpeting how long it had taken them to topic tag the Early Church Fathers collection and why topic tagging made this Logos resource so much more useful than a mere public domain PDF version of the ECF which could only be searched literalistically for a simple word or literal phrase.
And that for me is the difference. Using the Topic Browser in Logos 3 was like going to the index page of a well edited book - you knew it would point you to significant and intelligently selected treatments of the search term/topic and offer you sub-topics to refine your choices. Searching in Logos 4 is more like searching a PDF or using Google - it offers you a series of occurences based on an alpha-numeric match (refined by a few fancy algorithms).
That worries me a bit. Have Logos dropped topic tagging their resource files because it's too time consuming and expensive for them? Have they made a strategic decision to privilege speed and quantity over refinement and quality in the search facilities they offer in Logos 4?
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SamHenderson said:
That worries me a bit. Have Logos dropped topic tagging their resource files because it's too time consuming and expensive for them? Have they made a strategic decision to privilege speed and quantity over refinement and quality in the search facilities they offer in Logos 4?
The way that Libronix did topic searching was dependent on the chapter and section headings in books. They are working on implementing true topic tagging for Logos 4, it's a big project and only in its infancy. While many people found the old Topic browser to be helpful it was relatively inaccurate and missed a lot of content (when I was a student I found it's results in research to be woefully inadequate). They are working on a new way of doing things that will be more accurate. Go back into this old thread and read Sean Boisen's post on Wed, Nov 4 2009 3:18 PM, it'll explain this issue more fully.
Prov. 15:23
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That was a great read. I missed it on the first go around, so thanks for pointing it outKevin Becker said:Go back into this old thread and read Sean Boisen's post on Wed, Nov 4 2009 3:18 PM, it'll explain this issue more fully.
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3470/27363.aspx#27363
I saved it to my favorites (among other Logos comments) for future reference.
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SamHenderson said:
I believe that Logos tagged many of their resources for significant topics and references and that this tagging was time consuming and expensive (which is why not every Logos book featured this type of tagging - usually the higher value ones). I remember them trumpeting how long it had taken them to topic tag the Early Church Fathers collection and why topic tagging made this Logos resource so much more useful than a mere public domain PDF version of the ECF which could only be searched literalistically for a simple word or literal phrase.
And that for me is the difference. Using the Topic Browser in Logos 3 was like going to the index page of a well edited book - you knew it would point you to significant and intelligently selected treatments of the search term/topic and offer you sub-topics to refine your choices. Searching in Logos 4 is more like searching a PDF or using Google - it offers you a series of occurences based on an alpha-numeric match (refined by a few fancy algorithms).
It was that extra effort by Logos that made their books worth the extra money we had to pay for them. For example, Logos is selling Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas for $199.95 for a savings of $50.00. Amazon is selling the complete Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas for $0.99 for the Kindle. Both are English only and both are translated by the Fathers of the English Dominican Province. Amazon can sell Summa Theologica so cheaply and included free wireless delivery to the Kindle because the work is in public domain. The only way I can justify paying 200 times more for the Logos version of this work is if Logos provides added value! Added value includes such things as providing the page numbers in the original book, tagging references and topics. Without these added features I cannot justify paying 200 times more for the same public domain work.0 -
WilliamEGordonJr said:
It was that extra effort by Logos that made their books worth the extra money we had to pay for them. For example, Logos is selling Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas for $199.95 for a savings of $50.00. Amazon is selling the complete Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas for $0.99 for the Kindle. Both are English only and both are translated by the Fathers of the English Dominican Province. Amazon can sell Summa Theologica so cheaply and included free wireless delivery to the Kindle because the work is in public domain. The only way I can justify paying 200 times more for the Logos version of this work is if Logos provides added value! Added value includes such things as providing the page numbers in the original book, tagging references and topics. Without these added features I cannot justify paying 200 times more for the same public domain work.
I have to say that I really do agree with what you're saying. I mean after all, even e-Sword and The Word provide many public domain resources for nothing at all. And they are all search-able resources. So, I also can't justify spending 200 times more - unless - there's something pretty special about the way in which the Logos version of these resources are able to be searched - (i.e.; by topic or subject - not just by word hit count).
Having the capability to search your entire library, or just a collection - by specific topic - was what I liked also about the Topics Browser in L3, even if it wasn't 100% perfect and accurate. It sure worked better than having to weed through thousands of word hits that didn't apply.
sdahlinghwa
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Forgot to formally ask:
I know you guys are working on this but . . .
PLEASE bring back at least the same functionality we had with the Topics Browser in L3.
There. Just had to say it straight out.
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You should read this http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3470/27363.aspx#27363Stein Dahl said:I know you guys are working on this but . . .
PLEASE bring back at least the same functionality we had with the Topics Browser in L3.
There. Just had to say it straight out.
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You can add my name.
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I agree with this and really miss the topic search
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Mark,
Isn't topic browsing also related to tagging of resources? Ie, you can do a topic search on "Holiness" and perhaps get a link to a a section in one of Max Lucados books--and that section doesn't even mention the word "holiness", but the topic may be described in that illustration he has.
And that ability--to find an article/section that is topically correct, even if the topic word doesn't appear within the article, is dependent on good tagging. Not all Logos resources even had that. Baker's collections, for example, were only indexed/tagged (whatever the correct term) by page number, essentially. But I think Lucado books DID have topical indexing.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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holy smokes, somehow I read the first page and didn't realize there were 5 more before i posted. sorry! I may have written a reply that is now moot (or as some write, "mute." lol)
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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I don't know how this fits in the whole discussion and what's cooking in the future for Logos 4 or yet again whether this point is already mentioned in the threads that parallel the discussion here, but I noticed that there are entries from topical resources (eg, Nelson's topical index, Nave's) that show up under the Topics sections in the Passage Guide.
That's more than what we get in a plain search but not more than searching a collection of Bible Dictionaries and Bible topical resources. In other words, it is still just a few resources that show up topically. Makes you wonder why topical resources do show in the PG but not in the topics section of a regular search.
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Personally still looking for Logos to upgrade topic search instead of the current down-grade from the L3 topic search.
I know it has been said that L3 didn't efficiently do topic searches. However, L3 is STILL (8 mo. later) head/shoulders above L4 in topic searching. (which I used 20+ times a week)
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There's been a lot of talk about Logos's LCV database that they are working on (Logos Controlled Vocabulary) which will let them tag all resources with "topic" like fields. I don't know if they realize how urgent it is that they finish that work so we can get real topic searching working again. A recent post by Louis St. Hilaire indicated that this is apparently long and laborious labor, to complete the LCV database and retag every dictionary so that it works with these new topic fields. Once that is done it will apparently be much faster to do topic searches than it was in L3, but in the meantime we wait, wait, wait. Or go back to L3.
I hope I've conveyed adequately to Louis how important this functionality is to so many people. I'll also refer him to this thread which has become active again.
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Rosie Perera said:
I hope I've conveyed adequately to Louis how important this functionality is to so many people. I'll also refer him to this thread which has become active again.
I agree. Topic searching is so integral to the use of bible study programs that I still can't understand how they could have put L4 out without having completed this part of the program. That being said, I do enjoy the other features that are available and am managing to get by with the searching as it is for now. But I also want to stress that topic searching should be right at the top of the list of priorities.
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TimEngwer said:
Topic searching is so integral to the use of bible study programs that I still can't understand how they could have put L4 out without having completed this part of the program.
Just so you and everyone know; Bob said that he had two choices:
1.) don't release until ALL of everyone's wish list is granted for features....
2.) Release when the features that the DATA said MOST users used most often.
He thought it was more important to get the software into the hands of those who wanted it. Those who wished to wait till all of the -features were in place...could do so with no harm done.
Just an FYI on why it was released when it did.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
2.) Release when the features that the DATA said MOST users used most often.
What data was Logos looking at? I think that a Topic Search is something that more people use than Logos thought would. I wish that implementing it could be at the top of Logos' list.
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Jeremy said:
What data was Logos looking at? I think that a Topic Search is something that more people use than Logos thought would.
They didn't tell me... [;)]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Hi Jeremy,
Like others, I don't know either... however Bob did make a very interesting point that's relevant. He commented that on the remaining features there was something like 5-10% of users who were vested in each feature---a different 5-10% on each one... And the data they looked at was on the usage stats to make Libronix better (that some--many?-- of us--me included--opted out of). It turns out that that info was used to make decisions about something I really cared about. [:O]
Blessings!
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
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BillS said:
Hi Jeremy,
Like others, I don't know either... however Bob did make a very interesting point that's relevant. He commented that on the remaining features there was something like 5-10% of users who were vested in each feature---a different 5-10% on each one... And the data they looked at was on the usage stats to make Libronix better (that some--many?-- of us--me included--opted out of). It turns out that that info was used to make decisions about something I really cared about.
Blessings!
Why would they elect to use that data knowing that many users opt out? (I'd imagine they could easily determine the number of those who opt out.)
Why not use that data (limited) and send out an email survey (they do have everyone's emails)? Seems like putting all your eggs in one basket isn't a good idea.
Also, I did NOT print much in L3... Didn't really need to... (a lot of cut and paste). I DO NEED to print a lot in L4.... THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PROGRAMS!
Every one has majored on L4 being soo different. Why use L3 stats to determine L4 functions then? My issue with my line of thinking here is that while I didn't use printing much in L3 I NEED it in L4 because of the new features (clippings the biggest, but also many of the new reports). If your going to add new features seems reasonable that you need to think about what users will need to support those new features.
It is obvious (at least to most) that Logos missed the boat with a few things... However, I am confident they are taking note and I expect them to make printing available soon.
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J. Morris said:
Why use L3 stats to determine L4 functions then?
Hindsight is great isn't it? [;)]
Just funning with you...I'm guessing that there wasn't many ways to go about knowing how your userbase uses the software...user generated stats would be a good one.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Here's the choice:
- You can use Logos 4 from November 2009, with 90% of the features that 90% of the users use most (stats are illustrative, not accurate).
- You can wait, use Logos 4 from November 2010, with 100% of the features that 100% of the users use most.
All of us Logos 4 users chose option (1). Option (2) is still open for us (L3 still works!). The point is that all features require developmental time, and have to be prioritised. There are a limited number of developers, and a limited amount of time, and presumably a limited amount of cash. We can't have everything all at once. Logos didn't think "I bet no-one wants to print", and we're now proving them wrong. They thought "It's really complicated coding a print function. As most things people want to print can be copied/pasted into Word, there's an easy workaround for now. So let's focus our coding time on features that can't be worked around (like super-fast searching, dynamic collections and a wonderful UI). We'll get onto printing as soon as we can."
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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I don't have L3 loaded, so I can't confirm this. But I think topic browsing was on it's way out long before L4. If I remember correctly, I purchased Chafer's systematic theology back in April of 2007 (it may have been a different set) and it was not tagged for topics. I had to go the subject index and select subject links to find, what used to be called "topics".
I complained, but at the time CS didn't seem to understand why I found the topic browser so important.
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DHG said:
CS didn't seem to understand why I found the topic browser so important.
That may be true. However, Logos does recognize the importance of the topic browser and is trying to redo it in a method that will produce much better results than L3 could. In another thread Sean states that Logos has added a staff member to speed the progress of the tagging portion of the function.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I would add that the topic browser didn't include all of the dictionaries in L3 either.
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My basic search will not give me a topics section. Also, it doesn't look like the screen shot above when starting the search. It asks me to search "all text" in "collection X"? Is there a way to get it to show like above or at least give me a topics section? I keep getting evert hit for the word rather than when it is a topic.
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Rev Arthur Joseph said:
My basic search will not give me a topics section.
Try viewing this wiki article: Topic found in Basic Search
You will need to click on item #3 as shown in the above wiki article
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Rev Arthur Joseph said:
Is there a way to get it to show like above or at least give me a topics section?
In order to get the topics section, you need to make sure that the "collection X" spot is set to "Entire Library" (click on it to indicate your choice).
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Sean Boisen said:
I know some disagree and would prefer the topic browsing experience of L3. Please be assured that we care about improving your experience, and we're doing our best to balance that with all the other challenges of providing a rich, complex application like Logos 4.
I have purchased thousands of dollars of books within Logos over 15 or more years. I'd like to be able to search my library for topic/subject headings that contain a chosen word. I don't need to wade through every use of the word.
I know you already understand what I'm saying and may sympathize. Your idea of concepts is theoretically better. However the reality is that this is a serious issue that affects me regularly, now. At times I even consider repurchasing some of the hard-back books I got rid of when added them in Logos, so I can find things faster.
Lately I'm finding that I can find some type of information faster on
the web than fooling with Logos. The problem is that I know the caliber
and theological viewpoint of the works I own, but I don't for stuff on
the web. Furthermore I paid for these works and want to get the most use
out of them. I am really, really disappointed in this situation.Have a great day,
jmac0 -
Appears Logos 4.3 SR-3 could improve topical search.
For example, searching All Text in Entire Library for marriage customs includes topic section, but some Topic articles are not found when searching Heading Text and Large Text for marriage customs:
Wish "Heading Text" or "Large Text" would include Table of Content entries. Looking at Libronix 3.0g Topic Browser, noticed 3 articles listed for marriage customs, with 2 included in Logos 4.3 SR-3 library search topic section.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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