Forum Guidelines: No Theology Debates
Comments
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George Somsel said:
The gospel regards a trust in the love of God revealed in Jesus Christ and not in thinking the right thoughts.
Alain Maashe said:You have managed to define what the gospel “is not” and what the gospel “is” without making a single theological statement. Bob must be happy. (Of course, if these were theological statements as some might argue, it would mean that even your gospel is theology, even if it is theology that one needs to live out in through personal trust in God).
[Y]
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Well Bob, when well we get a rep from Jehovah’s Witnesses and New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures?
...Mike
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Mike said:
Well Bob, when well we get a rep from Jehovah’s Witnesses and New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures?
...Mike
Are you suggesting that Logos might want to create such a position and are you suggesting it -- or is this simply a provocative statement?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Peace, Richard!Richard DeRuiter said:The purpose of the forums, as I understand it, is for users to talk with each other about Logos software. It's really that simple. This used to happen in a newsgroup, and now happens in a web-based forum. We give each other tips and advice, ask some basic 'how to' questions, and sometimes wonder out loud about what we wish the software could do (sometimes to find out that it actually does it already).
*smile*
Thank you for posting! Indeed! You echo my thoughts precisely. After a number of years on the old Logos Newsgroups and going on two years if not passed now (who keeps score?) on the Logos Forums, I must say I've been richly blessed by my Logos Brothers and Sisters. It has been a wonderful ride; and hope it continues.
I daresay that perhaps I've helped a few as well; and it feels "just right"! At least I think I've been a blessing and will continue to support fellow Logos Users!\
*smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Mike said:
Well Bob, when well we get a rep from Jehovah’s Witnesses and New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures?
I'm not Bob so I don't have an answer. But I would buy the New World Translation without any help from a rep. And I'm not a Jehovah's Witness.
My college roommate did evangelism in Salt Lake City and found it helpful to know what the various Mormon texts said.
I have a Pre-Pub order in for The Sacred Books of the East (50 vols.) to better understand people who practice those religions.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I just want to state that these forums have been a blessing to me. Thanks to those who have participated.
We are all Bob's guests here. We must abide by the rules or go away. It is that simple.
There is nothing Christian about rudeness, and arrogance is not a fruit of the Spirit.
As Wesley said, "One may be almost as orthodox as the devil, though all men have some error in their theology and the devil knows the truth, and still be twice the child of hell that he is."
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Why not? The Bible can only have one way to believe. RCC is not correct until they stop praying to Mary and other falsehoods. Bob just wants to sell more logos Dbooks. Back in the DOS days he would not done so.
...Mike
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Mike said:
Why not? The Bible can only have one way to believe. RCC is not correct until they stop praying to Mary and other falsehoods. Bob just wants to sell more logos Dbooks. Back in the DOS days he would not done so.
...Mike
In such a short post you have included multiple errors.
- Catholics do not "pray to Mary." The rationale is that just as we would ask a friend to pray for us so too one can ask the departed saints to pray for us. They do not therefore consider that their prayer is directed to Mary but that they are asking for her prayers on their behalf.
- I think you are being most uncharitable respecting Bob. Vanity of vanities -- as the Preacher said, "Of making many books there is no end." In addition to the suggestions posted on this forum there are many suggestions sent directly to suggest@logos.com so I'm certain that Bob doesn't need to search for works to publish. "Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another?"
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Michael Childs said:
There is nothing Christian about rudeness, and arrogance is not a fruit of the Spirit.
I can't figure why you are replying to my post. Did I offend you? Sorry if I did, but I seriously would buy the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine & the Covenants, and the New World Translation in Logos format. I already have all these in non-logos format for reference purposes.
edit: I would also read writings from feminist, Unitarian, liberation, or MCC perspectives. Not for doctrine, but perspective. I also buy oil from Muslims and diamonds from Jews. (You probably do too.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Keith Larson said:
Your characterization of Protestants was very unfair.
See, this is why I hate these arguments... I'm in over my head. :-)
I've heard a few people (here, and on blogs) saying I've "thrown protestants under the bus" or gone "anti-protestant." That certainly wasn't my intention at all, and I apologize if I was somehow unfair to protestants, among whom I number myself.
This is a case of writing too quickly and posting without enough thought, in the heat of the moment. I wasn't trying to make any bold statements about Catholics and protestants; I actually thought I was making a mildly clever point in response to calls for someone to "step in and settle things," by pointing out that protestant churches don't have the hierarchy of the Catholic church. When protestants disagree on doctrine, they rarely kick the issue upstairs for an authoritative answer from the church hierarchy; they just split the church. I was trying to make the point that it was harder to get people so inclined to ever "settle down and get along" when they believe they are arguing a theologically important point. I thought that the request for someone to "set the rules" reflected a perspective that might be informed by experience in a more hierarchial church structure.
This was obviously too subtle a point and too gross a simplification, and probably too informed by my own experience in small non-denominational churches, all too many of which seem so split over trivial stuff.
Even my use of split wasn't a reference to departing "away from the true church." I meant splitting as in Tom, Mary, and their small group are leaving to start a new church down the street where we will use harmonicas during worship....
I apologize for the confusion, and for my flippancy. I plead jet-lag (last week) and too many simultaneous fires.
-- Bob
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Bob Pritchett said:
When protestants disagree on doctrine, they rarely kick the issue upstairs for an authoritative answer from the church hierarchy; they just split the church. I
Being Baptist, I understood your point completely. [8-|]
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Thanks Bob
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>> Catholics do not "pray to Mary." The rationale is that just as we would ask a friend to pray for us so too one can ask the departed saints to pray for us. They do not therefore consider that their prayer is directed to Mary but that they are asking for her prayers on their behalf.
Hmmmm, do you really want to go there? I do know different. My point was/is. You bring on a catholic product manager for RCC people, so why not a JW.
Lets see... Catholic product manager, Baptist product manager, Bob Jones product manager, Jehovah's Witnesses product manager........
There is no problem with Bob selling books but then smash mouth the protestant Churches. Proof
Bob says,,, Catholics: Logos welcomes you, and we're working hard to provide more tools, resources, and support. We've hired a Catholic product manager and are working hard to serve you. But our customer base is still 95% protestant, and you know that there are some passionate and even out-of-control people in protestant churches, and that the protestants don't do a good job getting along on a single doctrinal statement. That's why the Catholic church is basically one large church, and the average protestant church splits after reaching 100-200 people. I know the attacks are painful and unkind, but please understand that you're "surrounded" by people who traditionally are more likely to split a church than seek unity. In the protestant mindset there isn't a single authority figure who will be respected, let alone able to quell debate and dissension.
So large protestant Churches are best? I do not see that in the Bible.
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In terms of being offended as a Protestant my rule of thumb that I learned from several graduate schools is....
Everyone is offended all the time for any, all, several, or no reason at all.
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Rene Atchley said:
In terms of being offended as a Protestant my rule of thumb that I learned from several graduate schools is....
Everyone is offended all the time for any, all, several, or no reason at all.
[:)] In a similar vein, my rule of thumb has become, "I don't have to be nice." I can provide my theological basis for this position if necessary.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Matthew C Jones said:
I seriously would buy the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine & the Covenants, and the New World Translation in Logos format. I already have all these in non-logos format for reference purposes.
Thank Matthew, I too hope that Logos will offers them in the future for that same purpose. [:)]
http://hombrereformado.blogspot.com/ Solo a Dios la Gloria Apoyo
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Bob, I'm sorry you're getting so much flak, which must be hurtful.
Incidentally I would very much like a New World Bible in Logos format. I've tried and failed so far to get one in Albanian. I need to know what JWs believe before I can answer questions about them.
There are Logos products that don't appeal to me, but no one's forcing me to read them, let alone buy them. In fact I've bought, or ordered more than is good for my bank balance.
Re Catholics praying to Mary, those who know and obey the teaching of the church normally ask her to intercede for them. But of course there are Catholics who don't know the teaching of the church, as there are Protestants who have strange ideas....
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Frank Turk has responded...
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2011/07/open-letter-to-bob-pritchett.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Bob --
My friend Ed Stetzer says the open letters are all alike, but I think this one will stand apart.
Welcome to the internet.
Yes, I know: you've been in business since you were 6, you're a tech guy
with that visionary business, um, thing, and you are certainly familiar
with the internet.
Well, I'm sure you have a feed reader, and I'm sure you grasp the uses
of viral marketing, and I'm sure you have read a few blogs in your day.
But this weekend you made a completely-rookie mistake at the Logos
community forums, and I thought you -- being a pragmatic man who is
willing to do what's right for the sake of your own actual objectives
rather than some flighty ideal -- might hear me out about that mistake
and take some advice worth at least what it costs you.
For those who missed it, here's what you said:
CLICK TO ENLARGE Now, here's what you didn't do wrong: upholding
community standards in an internet forum is not wrong. It's actually
fundamentally right. And as I see it, your post was meant to do exactly
that -- as headlined by the subject line of your post: "Forum
Guidelines: No Theology Debates."
You and I both know: the purpose of the Logos forum is not apologetics.
It's not even evangelism. It's something far more secular and
rudimentary: creating a community of users who are unified by a product
or a brand for the purpose of marketing the product. This kind of forum
has dozens of others consequential uses for the participants: it can
create support for innovation and product development; it can provide
relatively cost-free (for the product marketer) 24/7/365 support; it can
provide a venue for understanding upgrades and plug-ins (which in turn
produces more sales for the marketer and more satisfaction for the
user); it can create a culture for users who then use the product in
unexpected or inventive ways, causing more buzz for the product.
In short: there are a lot of reasons for Logos to literally foot the
bill for a user forum, but none of those reasons have one iota to do
with whether or not righteousness is imputed or infused. They all have
to do with gaining users for the product.
And let me say this without any reservation, sarcasm, or qualification: I
admire that. I admire the kind of commitment it takes to want the
product to rule its market, and the commitment it takes to see that it
really does take standards to make that happen.
CLICK TO ENLARGE I mean: it is actually a rule for the forums -- at least
since 19 Jan 2010, according to the above screencap. It's a
long-standing rule, and the objective there is simple: anyone who wants
to learn to use Logos software can come here; anyone who wants to make a
theological point while using Logos software can use the whole rest of
the internet to do so. I credit you for being serious about your
product.
Having a policy is not a rookie mistake. Indeed: not having a policy,
or failing to enforce it consistently, is the rookie mistake.
So what's the big stink about? Where's the rookie error?
Well, the problem is feeding the trolls, Bob. Let me suggest something
to you: by trotting out the most-offensive polemic of internet
"Catholics" against Protestants, and then trotting out what can only be
called talking out of the side of one's ecumenical mouth to Protestants
about the Catholics who are allegedly using Logos (the Bible-readers,
people: not the Mariolators and Indulgence-collectors), you have taken sides in the debate you are trying to squash.
I realize I'm not the life-long entrepreneur you are, Bob, but I am a
bit of an intermediate blow-hard here in the bandwidth. Here's one way
you could have approached this:Dear Logos Users and Forum Community:
It
is a long-standing policy of Logos not to let the forum expand its
scope from a vehicle to generate support and community relationships
regarding the use of our product families. For that reason, we do not
allow theological debate to blossom on the various forums.Logos
is the leading publisher of multilingual Bible software on Mac, Windows
and mobile platforms -- and we don't foster debates as to whether one
computing platform is superior to another. Logos partners with more than
130 publishers to make more than 12,000 electronic books available to
customers in more than 180 countries -- and we don't foster debate over
which is the most influential or most important among them. The company
serves church, academic and lay markets, bringing the best in software
innovation to Christians worldwide -- and that marketplace has many
needs.Logos
now produces high-end tools for studying biblical texts in their
original languages along with the largest electronic libraries for study
of the Bible. The combination of tools and texts within the software
now make it possible, for the first time ever, to perform in-depth
biblical language research from the same software application that holds
the largest and most advanced electronic Bible reference library
available. The unified, integrated research platform reduces the cost
and learning curve associated with having to own and maintain a separate
software package for each style of study.Projects
underway include the development of exclusive new databases with the
help of scholars from around the world. Data creation is a new area for
Logos, but we're confident that the databases and morphologies being
built will pave the way for the next revolution in electronic Bible
study.To
that end, please keep these forums about these subjects and not others
-- which are right-minded subjects for the church to consider, but which
will also never be resolved in a forum which is not intended to solve
them.Thanks
for your help, but be aware that our forum administrators will continue
to block and delete posts which violate our rules for forum use.Right?
You could have said it that way -- mostly-objective, somewhat-pointed,
and strictly about the subject you really wanted to promote here: Logos
products.
Instead, something else happened here -- and I want to give you my take
on it since I have your attention. As a former CBA member (almost 10
years as an independent retailer), one thing always stunned me about
CBA: the idea that somehow being averse to any apologetic or theological
distinction was not actually, in and of itself, a kind of apologetics.
The eye-rolling that ICRS/ECPA/CBA people do when someone makes a
theological point toward a liberal who is torturing orthodoxy or when
someone trots out Mormons as Christians is its own sort of apologetic -
the kind which wants to flatten all differences out to matters of taste
rather than important places where the Christian faith actually makes
itself different than other ideas and religions.
And let's face it, Bob: the Catholic/Protestant split really has never
been deeper than it is today -- it just has the problem of actual
Protestants being almost completely not in evidence. This is not my
opinion, but David Wells' opinion, which he has documented over the last
2 decades for us all so well. Instead we have uncolored, flavorless
Evanjellos jiggling in the public square, pressing themselves into all
manner of relevant moulds in the hope that someone will at least squirt
some canned whipped cream on them for some kind of savor.
What you did was the classic ECPA play of alleged objectivity girding
itself up against sectarianism -- by ignoring and minimizing real
differences and issues for the sake of what we have to admit is only one
thing: selling our stuff to the largest demographic we can
statistically size up.
See: there's nothing wrong with selling any morally-credible product to
anyone who will buy it. Bill Mays was not a bad guy for being a
huckster. You're not a bad guy for selling Logos and finding books and
documents to digitize to grow your market.
But there is something wrong with intentionally minimizing issues
of truth to appeal to an audience. There is something wrong, when you
say you have a reformed statement of faith, in essentially tossing it
off when it comes between you and your product for the sake of silencing debate.
You don't need anyone to sign off on your convictions in order to sell
them a product -- but running down your own confession, and the
confessions of like-minded people, in order to quell the concerns of
potential customers, is wrong. That's what your statement did, and it is this broad and common error which makes your approach a bad one.
You're a clever guy, and you could have done better -- you can still do
better. You can overcome the rookie mistake of dipping into the
internet as a combatant rather than as a marketer.
Thanks for decades of innovations which have benefitted thousands
globally is their use of the Bible and all manner of theological
resources. Remember your business mission and your confession as you tread out into the internet where someone, invariably, is wrong.
To that end, I am praying for you.
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Mike said:
So large protestant Churches are best? I do not see that in the Bible.
Of course not, and that's not what I was saying. I was simply making an observation about the diversity of views among protestants. I wasn't making any value judgments about them. My statement about the size of protestant churches is an observation, not a criticism.
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@5 Solas
Do you feel at all presumptuous in your assessment of Logos, and Bob Pritchett's, motivation in catering to people outside your universe?0 -
5 Solas said:
Bob, you are accountable before God.
Perfect, let him "Work out his own salvation..." and give it a rest, will you!
- Michael
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Michael Anda said:
@5 Solas
Do you feel at all presumptuous in your assessment of Logos, and Bob Pritchett's, motivation in catering to people outside your universe?[6] I should let Steve answer for himself but I am guessing when he dines in a fancy restaurant he asks the maître d' to clear the establishment of anyone that doesn't look like or agree with him.
(There go the fat women, the bald men, the gays, the Democrats, the immigrants, the Mormans, the senior citizens, & the cripples.)
If we viewed Logos as a secular dining establishment maybe we could leave judgment day to the only One who is qualified to sift the inner heart. Even God withholds judgement; patiently waiting, extending his mercies. Matthew 13:24-30
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Reading this thread prompts two Scripture passages to my spirit. The first is 1 Corinthians 1.10-17, where Paul chides Christians for the divisions among them that are grounded in misguided loyalties.
In this thread, people display loyalty to their tradition, to their theology, to their hermeneutics, or to their.... And that wouldn’t be a bad thing except that, as with the Corinthian loyalties, those who disagree are often judged to be inferior or unequal or untrue (one poster in this thread graciously, but perhaps grudgingly, acknowledged that some Roman Catholics are actually “true Christians,” which meant all other RCs are, of course, untrue Christians. Can you say, “Welcome to Logos!”?)
Personal opinion, tradition, and experience grind distorted lenses through which to view other followers of Jesus, lenses that magnify differences and minimize core similarity. Loyalty to denomination or personal Scriptural interpretation that supercedes loyalty to the unity Jesus expected from his followers makes constructive exchanges of differences all but impossible. The result? Threads such as this one and the ones that prompted it.
The other Scripture passage that comes to my spirit is Mark 9.38-40, where frustrated disciples complain to Jesus about a person who’s driving out demons using the correct name, but not as part of their particular group. Jesus tells them not to interfere with the person’s ministry.
Logos forums are filled with people who are doing great things in the name of Jesus. Sadly, as this and other threads demonstrate, Logos forums are also populated with people who aren’t willing to acknowledge people outside their particular groups (or theologies, or traditions, or...) without running to Jesus (or, in these forums, to Bob Pritchett!) to complain.
I think theological debates are great – in churches, in coffee shops, in these forums. But I also think it’s obvious we’re not very good at them. Theological debates are almost inevitable in the Logos forums because a significant proportion of forum users are as passionate about their faith as they are about their Bible software [:D]. The only way to stop the debates is to shut down the forums. But we ought not need such draconian measures to shut down the judgment and acrimony. It’s very simple: Act like the followers of Jesus you claim to be.
I say, don’t stop debating disagreements; stop judging those with whom you disagree. Claim – make that celebrate – the family Jesus delivered you into, a family that is not a convention of clones, but rather a collection of parts as different from each other as hands are from kneecaps, and lungs are from toenails (1 Corinthians 12), a family over whose rules governing membership we have no say.
The next time someone posts something with which you disagree. Say, “I disagree because.... But I gladly call you brother/sister.” If you can’t say that, then say, “I gladly call you brother/sister.” And if you can’t say that, then confess, repent, and ask forgiveness.Blessings,
Bill
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A Scriptural study on unity will reveal that unity in Truth (and I think we would agree that Christ embodied the Truth) was to be sought; NOT unity for unity's sake.
It is not Scriptural to teach, or take a position that we should seek unity at all costs. This is a popular heresy that allows for multitudinous, multifaceted, manifold divisions.
For those advocating unity over and above Truth, I simply ask, is Truth embodied in the Word, or in the individual? If you say the individual, I agree, we have no basis for polemics; however, if in the Word, then by all means, we have all the reason to defend it in Christ and through the power of the Holy Spirit.
The greatest example of all concerning unity only when it was grounded in Truth was how Christ addressed all. Why do you think that Christ braced the Pharisees? Dare I even say that those who are in favor of unity for unity's sake would not have braced the Pharisees today, but would welcome them into their house and bow down before them!
We are in a battle gentlemen, against principalities, powers and those who rule the air! If you do not seek to adhere to Truth, how can you expect to identify the strategies and tactics of the enemy?
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I can't be bothered to read through this whole thread so this may already be addressed but I just want to say that Logos is doing the right thing. I don't want some narrow minded person dictating to me what I can buy and read. What if I am studying Catholic doctrine and want to get some authoritative resources on the subject? What I buy and read is my choice. Keep up the good work logos.
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I rarely read anything except technical posts on the forum anymore for the same reason that a straight forward request (decree?) from the president of Logos is still generating hype 8 pages later. But I must admit that I am sure glad I opened this one, just wish I had some popcorn as I sat down to watch the show.
Carry on. [8-|]
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If you believe the authority resides in the holy scriptures and God said his word will not return to him void, why not allow God (who is a bit more powerful than you) deal with all the error in the world. One of the greatest prideful flaws of preachers is to believe their own honey-dripping words can convict men of sin and convince them to repent. God chose the "foolishness of preaching" to show himself powerful. If God and his holy word are not able to convict & convince sinners, what makes you feel you can or should?
"Be Still and Know that I Am God" Psalm 46:10
addendum: See? Even I get to thinking my special wisdom can convince others of their error. That proves how futile our own wisdom is. [:$]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Terry Poperszky said:
just wish I had some popcorn as I sat down to watch the show.
Can't wait till the intermission...
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5 Solas said:
My response is pretty clear cut and straightforward. Roman Catholicism is "another gospel" and cannot save. What else is there to say. It is not my opinion, it is based on the Authority of Scripture alone. But since Roman Catholics stand on the authority of a pope and not Scripture I do not expect you to understand or agree. But unless you repent and believe the Gospel you will perish in your sins.
I passed this info on to others who are doing a better job addressing this than me and are now getting the attention of Bob Pritchett. I pray Bob does the right thing and understands that Roman Catholicism is not consistent with Biblical Christianity for it is in no way "Christian".
I'm right and anyone who doesn't agree with me is going straight to a warmer climate. Logos should only publish my books or those with which i agree. I will post an Index of Prohibited Books to assist in determining what may be published.
Does that fairly represent your view? What chutzpah !
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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