Not Sure Uprade is Worth the Time or Money
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joan, lol - yes - its good news that its on their radar....sounds like customer service needs to be aware of these plans instead of panicking peeps like me!!!
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BobbyTerhune said:
R.M
Bradley told us last week during the Beta testing that all the new base package books that don't need 4.0 to function will be made available for L3, he said to give them a week or so to get them converted. I think it's been all hands on deck this week for the L4 launch and we'll probably see them next week.
Yes I saw the post also. It is not policy to keep the resources from your v3 range but a priority thing. The information of Customer Service might mean that really, strictly speaking, Logos 4 resources (with .logos 4 ending) will never work in v3. That's how I understand it.
Bohuslav
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Don Awalt said:
To me prayer lists, full view interlinears, PBB, sentence diagramming, custom lectionaries, and others are regular features.
All of these are planned for restoration; I've just got to disagree that they're "regular features", though. They may be to you -- and I'm glad for that! I helped design them, and like to see them used! But our statistics module tells us that most of those are used by 10% or less of users, and a few by less than 1%.
The choice of what did/didn't make the cut for the first release was data driven, not a subjective call. I'm sorry that it frustrates our best and strongest users, like you, but if we'd held the release till they were done it wouldn't have made things any faster. You'd still get them at the same time, we'd just be deferring access to the features 90% of users use until then. That's why we went ahead with a release now.
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R.M. said:
The clincher for me is that Logos refuses to issue update scripts for 3.0 with the books you purchase under 4.0.
Whoa! "refuses" is a harsh word! And I think I'm the only person who gets to "refuse" on Logos behalf.
As I've posted previously, we actually PLAN to release an update script to put every book that will work with 3.x into your 3.x installation. We went out of our way to design and code for this scenario. I'm sorry you got the wrong answer from customer service -- I've already emailed the department supervisor to make sure they get the message right. (They're _really_ busy, and working very hard, and sometimes we haven't communicated the answer to every question to every person, despites attempts to improve communication.)
We don't want any one disappointed; if you're not happy, we want to give you a refund. But I hope you'll give us a few days (it's only Wednesday!) to work through some of these things, get the scripts online, etc.
Thanks!
-- Bob
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The keys to successfullly navigate the week for everyone, I think, is communication as you said it, Bob. Your communications go a very long way in "soothing our furrowed brows". ThanksBob Pritchett said:(They're _really_ busy, and working very hard, and sometimes we haven't communicated the answer to every question to every person, despites attempts to improve communication.)
We don't want any one disappointed; if you're not happy, we want to give you a refund. But I hope you'll give us a few days (it's only Wednesday!) to work through some of these things, get the scripts online, etc.
Thanks!
-- Bob
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I said "keys" and I meant to add the other key, is patience. We already have heard it numerous times and we just need to be it.
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Bob Pritchett said:R.M. said:
The clincher for me is that Logos refuses to issue update scripts for 3.0 with the books you purchase under 4.0.
Whoa! "refuses" is a harsh word! And I think I'm the only person who gets to "refuse" on Logos behalf.
As I've posted previously, we actually PLAN to release an update script to put every book that will work with 3.x into your 3.x installation. We went out of our way to design and code for this scenario. I'm sorry you got the wrong answer from customer service -- I've already emailed the department supervisor to make sure they get the message right. (They're _really_ busy, and working very hard, and sometimes we haven't communicated the answer to every question to every person, despites attempts to improve communication.)
We don't want any one disappointed; if you're not happy, we want to give you a refund. But I hope you'll give us a few days (it's only Wednesday!) to work through some of these things, get the scripts online, etc.
Thanks!
-- Bob
Bob,
I want to thank you and all the Logos staff for your Christian attitude and courteousness during a very busy time. You've gotten a lot of flak over various things, and yet you've responded kindly and in detail, both on the forums and on the phone. I know the program is not perfect, but you all have done a ton of work and are working to resolve any issues.
When I called to upgrade, I got through quickly (possibly because I waited to call until Monday evening, though I did get a sales question answered earlier in the day without any trouble), my questions were answered thoroughly, and now 4.0 is running quickly and smoothly on both my computers. Thank you for a great release, and I look forward to watching the training videos and learning more about the new or improved features.
For me, it was well worth the time and the money to upgrade. I haven't been using Logos as long as many here, as I just got a base package in June (though I had some resources from back in the 2.1 days), so I'm not as tied in to certain of the 3.0 features that haven't migrated yet. I'm just thankful for the thousands of resources that are now accessible nearly instantaneously. God has certainly blessed us as Christians today to have so much - hopefully we will be as wise stewards of it as people in the old days were with a single copy of the Bible.
- Dan
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Bob Pritchett said:Don Awalt said:
To me prayer lists, full view interlinears, PBB, sentence diagramming, custom lectionaries, and others are regular features.
All of these are planned for restoration; I've just got to disagree that they're "regular features", though. They may be to you -- and I'm glad for that! I helped design them, and like to see them used! But our statistics module tells us that most of those are used by 10% or less of users, and a few by less than 1%.
Bob,
Even though you might not see them as "regular features", we did pay for some of them at one point. I did purchase the sentence diagrammer for a reason. I know it can be used in V.3, but as with any resource that has been purchased, the functionality should be ported to the upgrade. I know you are working on these "features, but please consider that some of these features were purchased. They were not just extras thrown in with the program that are expendable. I know you are fending off the onslought of "we never did it that way" from the initial shock of new users. I know you are probably very tired. But please don't diminish our concern over the investment we made.
Mac Pro 13 Retina 8GB, 256 flash
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I think we Beta Testers were harder on Logos the first week than I have seen here. Bob reassured us that while many things were going to be different, only two things were going away - Remote Library Search (Easier to do via the web) and Graphical Queries (New search syntax was to be easy enough that this isn't needed). Everything else is in the Logos 4 plan.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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Thanks for the reply Bob. I have thousands of dollars and years invested in the system - that's why I don't waste my time making idle threats about switching to a better system (there isn't one) - of course I will be patient for a few days, maybe by then my books will be all indexed and I can use them, lol
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Thanks for the reply Bob.
But I for one would rather wait and get a complete product with at least the features I am used to being there. I frankly have never heard of releasing a product where paid-for features are not included, and new features are. It creates a point of confusion now having to run two versions of the same product, and all the worries about which resource work for which, which version to I go for, for which feature, etc. I can't see Microsoft releasing a verison of Word like this, and like it or not it's what we are used to.
But at least for me, I'd rather do without the features I don't yet know so I can keep the features I do use. Just like new users won't miss things they never knew, I won't miss features I don't yet know either. I know full well that new functionality may take a release or two to get right, but to lose features I rely on, that's a step back.
I know software development and I know that Logos betas have gone quite a bit longer than originally anticipated, which again is fine with new features and the fact that betas were open to many. But it makes me wonder if Q2, 2010 could in fact become Q4, 2010. It wouldn't be unprecedented.
I hope given this confusion that the upgrade pricing will stay until a time at which what we have can be replaced fully by the new version. If by the time version 4 has the version 3 features I care about, the upgrade pricing has gone up to a higher level, that might price me out forever. I can't see buying a product and using it half time or less, given the cost of upgrade. But that's your call of course.
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What if Word was released in a new version missing features from the prior version that users worked with? Would the industry accept "run 2 versions for 6-8 months" as a reasonable approach? I think not - Microsoft, Oracle, Intuit, or any other major vendor would be panned, and panned hard.
And it's not that we "miss it" - We use it. Big difference.
I am sure the priorities were good choices - the release came out too early, I don't argue with the priorities.
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I'm quite disappointed. My past experience with logos convinced me it would be a great program. We've lost all control of the program. If the servers are down we lose functionality in the program. So far everyone is trying to convice themselves that we have a prince. It looks more like a toad to me. I feel that I've wasted my money.
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williamnorman said:
If the servers are down we lose functionality in the program.
How so? L4 can run complete off-line indefinitely until the servers are backup. Very few features require a connect and I don't think these are "have or die" features. The only one that comes to mind is reading lists.I love the feature...but I think I could live without it for a bit.
williamnorman said:So far everyone is trying to convice themselves that we have a prince.
Not at all. I have been using L4 for 2 months. I dread when I have to open L3 (yes, some of those features are a must for me), I love to open L4. I have felt this way since at least beta 3 (betas come out once a week). Back then there were even more serious hick-ups then you are seeing now. You are free to feel like you are kissing a toad. But my opinion of the product is not a self-delusion and has been proven with time.
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Don Awalt said:
What if Word was released in a new version missing features from the prior version that users worked with? Would the industry accept "run 2 versions for 6-8 months" as a reasonable approach?
You can make the case that if we do anything different in the existing app, we're taking something away. (Your investment in learning the old way, for example.) That's what people said when Microsoft changed the UI to Word by introducing the ribbon UI.
I had a car that remembered two seat positions for both the driver and passenger. I liked the car so much I bought a newer model. For some inexplicable reason, the new model (which adds a GPS! cool!) only has the two-person seat memory on the driver's side.
Did they take it away? No, they introduced a new, upgraded model. I chose to use it.
We haven't taken away Logos 3. It's still there. Everything you paid for is still there.
You could make the case that you bought an eternal stream of updates. And, in fact, we pretty much act that way, though it's not really what we ever sold you: we said you'd get free updates to the technology to ensure it wouldn't stop working. Our total, ground-up rewrite of Logos 4, that runs apart from Logos 3, which is getting maintenance "as we speak", doesn't break that promise. As long as Logos 3 runs, we're keeping that promise.
That we let you "transfer" the promise to Logos 4 is a benefit. And, of course, it's our hope. But I think we should be on the hook to keep everything-exactly-as-it-was. (Though we're keeping it as familiar as possible.)
Because if we do, we'll eventually die. Microsoft Word is cool, and it's great that it still works and reads old documents. But its (necessary) slavish attention to support everything it did in the past holds it back. It makes you and i happy, but it also means it's too old fashioned, too slow, too big, and too expensive for my 15 year old son. He wants everything in the cloud, uses Google Docs (which is inconceivable to me), and accesses school papers from my home desktop machine, his laptop, and the computer at school, interchangeably.
Word may have enough of us old guys to lumber on into the future for years; but it's over as the cutting edge. You need reinvention to stay fresh, and that's what we're doing -- WITHOUT breaking our promise about you not having to repurchase your content.
Hope this helps explain the thinking...
(One last thing -- how can it be out too early? If I delayed it six months to get all those features in, you'd have it in six months. If you just keep using 3.0 and ignore all the Logos 4 noise, then upgrade in six months with all those features, how is it any different?)
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Thanks Bob for the reply.
Two quick points - I think you are looking at it as a change in how something works, like the seat position example. I am looking at it as functionality removed - like if Word removed spell checking. You are right things have to move forward, but we are talking about things that I used to be able to do with the product that I can no longer do.
Re: "(One last thing -- how can it be out too early? If I delayed it six
months to get all those features in, you'd have it in six months. If
you just keep using 3.0 and ignore all the Logos 4 noise, then upgrade
in six months with all those features, how is it any different?)" - I guess that is what I was thinking too. It would be nice to get the upgrade when it came out, I think Logos would want me to do that too. But the big question there is, how long do the upgrade prices stay the same?0 -
I know I can be opinionated. But it appears to me that this is just a transition to being web based software. When that happens then we will see how much we are affected by a bad connection or by a faulty server.
Time proven? How much time?
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Don Awalt said:
What if Word was released in a new version missing features from the prior version that users worked with? Would the industry accept "run 2 versions for 6-8 months" as a reasonable approach? I think not - Microsoft, Oracle, Intuit, or any other major vendor would be panned, and panned hard.
And it's not that we "miss it" - We use it. Big difference.
I am sure the priorities were good choices - the release came out too early, I don't argue with the priorities.
In that case, MS would call it Office 2008 for Mac!
Jack
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williamnorman said:
I know I can be opinionated. But it appears to me that this is just a transition to being web based software.
I doubt it. I think there will always be a place for Locally based software. For now it is not a movement to, but an addition to. Bob has already commented on there being web-based access to our library down the road. but I don't think it will ever replace having non-web dependent software.
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Good point Jack. Worse yet, try Quicken for Mac.. one of the worst things ever. Logos is not the first company to struggle to put the same product on both Mac and Windows. They certainly made some bad decisions over the past few years, but IMHO, they are on the right track now to get Mac in parity with Windows. Folks who want to be cranky, will just be cranky though :-)JackCaviness said:In that case, MS would call it Office 2008 for Mac!
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R.M. said:
They refuse to issue a script to unlock that, saying that only 4.0 new purchases can be used with 4.0.
This is probably not a matter of "refusing to issue a script" as it is that the new books would be in the Logos 4 book format. Many many books had to be updated to the new format. New books are being released in the new format. This does raise questions about how users can truly keep using L3 if they need features in it but will then be unable to use some of their resources, so perhaps Logos will release an update to L3 so it can read L4 books? We will see.
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Chris Roberts said:R.M. said:
They refuse to issue a script to unlock that, saying that only 4.0 new purchases can be used with 4.0.
This is probably not a matter of "refusing to issue a script" as it is that the new books would be in the Logos 4 book format. Many many books had to be updated to the new format. New books are being released in the new format. This does raise questions about how users can truly keep using L3 if they need features in it but will then be unable to use some of their resources, so perhaps Logos will release an update to L3 so it can read L4 books? We will see.
L3 and L4 resources are stored in different locations. In other words your L3 resource folder is not being updated to the logos4 format. Thus you may or may not get typo corrections (not sure how that one will work) but you will be able to continue using the old file.
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