I feel a little misled
L4 was pitched as a revolution in Bible study. Maybe one day L4 will be that, but right now, it's not very helpful. It's not the revolution they made it out to be. It should be a beta, not a final RC, until they get the functionality built into it. I have been using Logos for about 10 yrs. I have always been a huge fan. I purchased a mac upgrade a while back for my macbook pro so I wouldn't have to run it in VM ware. This, of course, was a huge mistake. The mac platform never really got off the ground. Oh well, money down the drain.
Now, I purchased the L4 upgrade, and I am disappointed. An incredible amount of core functions are nowhere to be found. I will keep working with it, but I don't care much for it. It seems like important functions have been stripped out. I don't even care much for the interface.
Now, many will say "just wait for the nice folks at Logos to fix this... they have demonstrated their aptitude and desire to do so." My response: "what about the mac platform I bought into late last year. That died. Logos didn't come through on that.
It really seems like L4 is a step backwards. I feel like I'm using Bible navigator or something. It's unsettling. I have always been a logos cheerleader, but now... not so much.
not real happy with Logos anymore.
Comments
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Kevin -
I was a beta tester. My first look at V4 was similar, but not as strong as yours. As I actually moved around and got used to things, it was not long until that first impression vanished.
I think the new homepage creates some of this. I did not like it at first, and still am only "eh" about it. But the rest of the program is fantastic and certainly not a step backward, but a huge leap forward.
Keep trying, and even if it does not catch on with you, V3 is still there to use.
Jerry
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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thanks for the encouragement. I feel like it was an unwise marketing appeal though. They should have explained that features will be missing. Instead, it was presented as a massive leap forward in Bible study. Now I cannot find my resources. See other post.
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Kevin there are things that I don't care for in V4 either, but overall it is far and above a more powerful system than V3. I am going to trust Logos to deliver the features I miss and use most like Sermon File Add-in, Smart Tags, etc... as promised. If not I may go back to the V3 engine.
As for being misled, not sure where...
Free engine upgrade, if you pay for the crossgrade it is not for the engine but for the additional resources which are a very good bargain...
My suggestion, take some time to play with the V4 engine find some of the not so obvious gems that are in it. It has only been released to the public for a few days... Hardly enough time to get familiar with and test the new engine. Take it from weeks of feeling what you are feeling during Beta runs...
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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I like the v4 and have played with it some i the past days, but I wonder with all the missing features coming in the next 6 months if the product was for some reason rushed to market. I wonder if it has anything to do with the iPhone app.
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Here's the way I look at it...
Even with the missing features that I dearly miss and always use from v3, L4 is still head and shoulders above any other Bible Software on the market.
One may have easier integration with MS Word (as of now - this will change when Logos finishes the updating of v3 features)
One may offer some classic study works like Apostolic Fathers in a cheaper package than Logos...
But add and subtract everything and Logos clearly is the last man standing in the Bible Study Software wars...
I'm sure if they tossed the Iphone/Ipod Touch app on the back burner and the Mac Alpha on the back burner all the PC features would be complete. Unlike most businesses they did not forsake their low percentage users (no disrespect intended here) and focus solely on the majority of their customers - the PC users.
Despite my disagreement on some issues (More User Control) and disappointment on other issues (Sermon File, Smart Tags, etc.) I still would not abandon Logos and the power and productivity that comes with it. To be clear I am not a consumer with thousands invested as some customers are....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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KevinJones said:
It really seems like L4 is a step backwards. I feel like I'm using Bible navigator or something. It's unsettling. I have always been a logos cheerleader, but now... not so much.
The folks who have had the hardest time adjusting to Logos4 are power-users. I'm not sure I qualify as a power-user, but I have been using Logos extensively since about version 1.6. (Sometimes I still miss the old library navigator that went out with version 2.) Many users, including me were also disappointed at first. I found I couldn't do things quite as efficiently as I used to. But that was mostly due to leaving behind my own customizations, and that I had learned to use Libronix so well that I no longer had to find anything.
L4 is a massive change in program architecture and user interface. It takes some getting used to. I sort of forced myself to use L4 as my primary sermon prep tool and soon found myself rarely going back to L3. I also find that I can now do things much more quickly, and go deeper in Bible study than before (not sure why).
Some of the 'missing functionality' I really miss. Some is just redesigned (it's there under a different name), a lot of it I actually don't miss anymore.
So let me encourage you to set aside the old, comfortable shoes and try on the new 'stiffer' ones for a while, and see if they don't get more comfortable the more you wear them.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Rich,
I appreciate your encouragement. I will continue to give it a try. I do consider myself somewhat of a power user, so I do feel very constricted. Many features are now buried under different menus etc.
All that to say, I absolutely love the new cloud based system. I no longer have to worry about backing up all my resources and transporting them to a new machine etc.
I still feel like this release should be a beta since so many features are lacking. All that to say, I will press on, but I still feel a little misled by Logos.
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KevinJones said:
I still feel like this release should be a beta since so many features are lacking. All that to say, I will press on, but I still feel a little misled by Logos.
Several Beta testers felt the same. But Logos was determined to get this out on schedule. Just imagine the program unfolding like a flower in spring over the next few months. It'll be fun. (Okay. Yes, I'm trying to be a 'glass-half-full' kind of guy.)
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Kevin:
I had much the same reaction as you when I first began using L4 but I'm steadily finding that most of the fuctionality is still there and in a generally more intuitive fashion than before. One of the things I've found really lacking is the current help file. I like to work in original languages so when I went looking for my Greek keyboard and could not find it on the bar or in the menus I took to the help file...nada there as well. I just happened to look at the new vids which showed how to input Greek. It seems most of it is there, it is just a matter of having the instructional material catch up.
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KevinJones said:
L4 was pitched as a revolution in Bible study. Maybe one day L4 will be that, but right now, it's not very helpful. It's not the revolution they made it out to be. It should be a beta, not a final RC, until they get the functionality built into it.
Now, I purchased the L4 upgrade, and I am disappointed. An incredible amount of core functions are nowhere to be found. I will keep working with it, but I don't care much for it. It seems like important functions have been stripped out. I don't even care much for the interface.
not real happy with Logos anymore.
So are you a Mac Logos user?
If so ...you might want to post there...I'm not sure who realizes that you're talking about the Mac platform
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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KevinJones said:
It should be a beta, not a final RC,
Yea, I thought the (secret) beta was an alpha. Now it is a RC with some hard won features and promises http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures. Logos understood what our desire is and it is the same as yours. It also needs to be a commercial success for Logos, so they are very motivated[:)]
You can add Parallel Resource Associations and improved resource metadata to that list.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Like Christmas!!!!
The home page does have a nice user friendlier look to it. Not so "task" orientated as the previous versions. This one has a very nice USA Today mass market multi-media appeal to it.
Just in time for the Holy Days!
Bob
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I too had to force myself to use Logos4 as a beta tester. There were many times when I just wanted to go back to 3 just to get it done quickly. But after a few weeks, I too find myself rarely going back to 3. There are some features that I really miss, and I would be more vocal about asking for them, except that they are promised soon...and in the meantime I can live without them (i.e. diagramming...I just do on paper in the meantime). But I just find that what I already did quickly in v3 and can do even faster in v4. For the first month or so I was only about 70% Logos 4. Now it's been over 2 weeks since I even launched the program that I used to spend over an hour with every single day for years.
GIve it a chance, and trust that most of what you're looking for is there (it might just be called something different). Learn how Logos 4 runs and it will quickly convert you.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
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Jacob Hantla said:
I too had to force myself to use Logos4 as a beta tester
I am in this process now. I loved v.3 and had keyboard shortcuts defined to make the use of the software easier and quicker. I loved the control that I had over the details of the software. I purchased v4 upgrade on Monday and it was tuesday or so until I began using it. I went to sleep Monday night thinking that I made a big mistake and wasted the money over a hype. But, after a few days, it is starting to grow on me.
Question: I feel hesitant to highlight anything in v4 until my highlights and annotations are imported from v.3 because I don't know if they will merge with v4 or just overwrite them. I feel that this was a big issue to have completed for release. Notes and markups that I have done in v3 are essential in v4.
John
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John Fugh, Jr. said:
Question: I feel hesitant to highlight anything in v4 until my highlights and annotations are imported from v.3 because I don't know if they will merge with v4 or just overwrite them. I feel that this was a big issue to have completed for release. Notes and markups that I have done in v3 are essential in v4.
This issue was heavily mentioned by the beta testers and as I suspected would be the case Logos was listening. I would hold off highlighting until we see how much they are able to do. because of some significant differences how well these importers will work is still a question.
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Philip Spitzer said:John Fugh, Jr. said:
Question: I feel hesitant to highlight anything in v4 until my highlights and annotations are imported from v.3 because I don't know if they will merge with v4 or just overwrite them. I feel that this was a big issue to have completed for release. Notes and markups that I have done in v3 are essential in v4.
This issue was heavily mentioned by the beta testers and as I suspected would be the case Logos was listening. I would hold off highlighting until we see how much they are able to do. because of some significant differences how well these importers will work is still a question.
I am sure that they will be able to import all notes and annotations from v3 to v4. But if they are unable for one reason or another to complete this in a timely manner, I will be first in line demanding a refund.
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John Fugh, Jr. said:
I am sure that they will be able to import all notes and annotations from v3 to v4. But if they are unable for one reason or another to complete this in a timely manner, I will be first in line demanding a refund.
I had a feeling there would be some who would feel strongly about this. Personally I do not keep notes much in v3, but I could put myself in the shoe of those who do.
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John Fugh, Jr. said:
Question: I feel hesitant to highlight anything in v4 until my highlights and annotations are imported from v.3 because I don't know if they will merge with v4 or just overwrite them. I feel that this was a big issue to have completed for release. Notes and markups that I have done in v3 are essential in v4.
I've seen note importing working internally; we're days away from having the code done for notes and highlighting, then we'll do testing and then deploy it.
The plan is to import whole note files, preserving their names. So there won't be conflict with anything you do in Logos 4 now.
Highlighting won't overwrite your highlights on a book, but will merge into it. It's possible you could import a highlight "on top of" one you makein Logos 4, but they'd both be there, the way you can manually overlap them now.
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Bob Pritchett said:
The plan is to import whole note files, preserving their names. So there won't be conflict with anything you do in Logos 4 now.
Highlighting won't overwrite your highlights on a book, but will merge into it. It's possible you could import a highlight "on top of" one you makein Logos 4, but they'd both be there, the way you can manually overlap them now
Thanks, Bob! This is good news and I will be less hesitant to highlight and markup my books in v4 knowing they will be merged with v3 when the import tool in public.
John
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I've just joined the group who feels misled. Here are the main issues I have with the current Beta version of Logos 4:
1. The missing features should have been PROMINENTLY pointed out with links and lists at least large enough to be noticed on EVERY page tauting the new Logos 4 release.
2. Printing? Printing? Who i the world thought that printing was optional or not needed? I don't care what I do in Logos, if I can't print it or smart tag or caopy/paste it into Word, its worthless!!! and NONE of those "features" are available in Logos 4!
3. The HELP files. To say they are poor is a major understatement. I've been a Logos user since 2.0. I'm pretty competent with Logos 3 and have been to Camp Logos. What the Help file should have been at a bare minimum is: for any option, report, menu item, or process in Logos 3, if that is typed into the Logos 4 help file, it should tell you how to do the same or similar thing in Logos 4 or it should say there is no way to do that in Logos 4. I can't begin to describe how many hours I've spend in the help files NOT getting answers to how to do Logos 3 things in Logos 4.
4. People keep saying "but Logos 3 still works" so everything is OK" Really? Where are the several hundred resources I paid for when I upgraded my Logos 3 Gold to Logos 4 Platinum? Where is even a concise and complete LISTING of what those new files are? Where is the automatic download to add those files to Logos 3? I paid for a beta version of Logos 4 that is missing many key features of Logos 3, but hey, it's OK cause I have Logos 3 right? NOOOOOO! I have the old resources of Logos 3, NOT the Platinum resources I paid for. I paid $425 to get the worst of both worlds.
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Rick Williams said:
Kevin:
I had much the same reaction as you when I first began using L4 but I'm steadily finding that most of the fuctionality is still there and in a generally more intuitive fashion than before. One of the things I've found really lacking is the current help file. I like to work in original languages so when I went looking for my Greek keyboard and could not find it on the bar or in the menus I took to the help file...nada there as well. I just happened to look at the new vids which showed how to input Greek. It seems most of it is there, it is just a matter of having the instructional material catch up.
I work with original languages too so you would have heard me squealing like a stuck pig if I had to rely on the program to convert a phonetically entered Greek or Hebrew, but fortunately I long ago installed the Logos keyboards in Windows and simply use the <alt-shft-#> combination to change keyboards and enter the words I want. I suggest you do the same. I personally intensely dislike entering transliterated text (or looking at it), but it can be avoided. I haven't come to terms with the new method of entering morphological parameters yet and would still prefer the old checkbox method, but it works once you've played around with it. Sermon files and smart-tags mean nothing to me as well as a number of other features of L4, but there are features that I do like. I never used the home page in L3, but I rather like the home page in L4 (though they could stand to change some of the entries every few days rather than allowing them to continue for days and days. Searches are definitely faster though I was not generally unhappy with the speed of L3 (I didn't often search my entire library). Even now though it is faster to search the entire library than to search only a part of it, I prefer to search only part since I don't care to sort through the search results. It's a mixed bag. The thing I miss most at the moment is all of my L3 notes which I would like to import into L4 and expect to eventually be able to do. Until that is done I will continue to use L3 more heavily than L4.
If you feel lost now, you would have felt even more lost in the beta process since there was no help file until the very end.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
If you feel lost now, you would have felt even more lost in the beta process since there was no help file until the very end.
So we are suppose to feel better because a really poor product has now become better, but is still considerably less functional than an earlier version. Sorry, I don't buy it. This does feel like betaware - and though I did not pay as much as some to upgrade (I merely upgraded from Silver L3 to Silver L4), I am still disappointed.
Floyd
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Floyd Johnson said:
So we are suppose to feel better because a really poor product has now become better, but is still considerably less functional than an earlier version. Sorry, I don't buy it. This does feel like betaware - and though I did not pay as much as some to upgrade (I merely upgraded from Silver L3 to Silver L4), I am still disappointed.
Trust me, George isn't overly caring about how you feel :-)
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What Logos 4 does, it does better than 3. It is a much better approach, but change is hard for some folks. Check out some of the videos and maybe that will help you make the adjustment. If not, you are free to keep using 3.0. It is still supported by Logos.Floyd Johnson said:So we are suppose to feel better because a really poor product has now become better, but is still considerably less functional than an earlier version.
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Philip Spitzer said:
Trust me, George isn't overly caring about how you feel :-)
[:S] Funny, but true.
Still I like to harp on 21 Interlinears. 21. Count 'em!
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:Philip Spitzer said:
Trust me, George isn't overly caring about how you feel :-)
Funny, but true. Still I like to harp on 21 Interlinears. 21. Count 'em!
I'm still waiting on that NLT interlinear.
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I appreciate all the encouraging advice, but come on guys... really? Go back to L3 is not a fair consolation when we just upgraded our machine and paid for it. I know we like to fix things, but I'm guessing most people are posting their grievances on here so Logos will notice. It really doesn't help much to be told we should go back to L3. I paid for a half baked beta version that was pitched as the Bible study reimagined. I have an entry level staff position with a church, and it isn't paying much. I don't have money to toss around and wait for Logos to deliver. I have lost some confidence in the company. I don't get the sense any longer that behind the software I'm using is a sharp, creative, and technically innovative company that can fix everything. I have some reservations at this point. Not to mention: cannot even use L4 in VMware on my macbook bc it's different from L3. It is so sluggish it won't even run. I would have liked to known that before purchasing and making the switch as well.
Nonetheless, I do appreciate the feedback that has been constructive.
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KevinJones said:
I appreciate all the encouraging advice, but come on guys... really?
KevinJones said:I paid for a half baked beta version that was pitched as the Bible study reimagined.
I truly do understand where you are coming from here. We beta testers had the advantage of getting the software before we plopped down money, thus, we had nothing to loss. You on the other hand do. There is no doubt that the software is unfinished. There are some things that should be that are not, such as correct meta-data. I personally would not go so far as to call it a beta-ish program, but I could understand someone that does.
The only thing I can truly offer you to encourage you to keep your trust in this company is this. I beta tested this for 8-9 weeks. I was given a freebie for testing the software out. After testing the software out I did not hesitate to plop down my money and move up to the next version. Most if not all of the beta testers that I now of seem to have upgraded beyond what we were given. I could have sat on my freebie and had a fully functional L4 but I upgraded from there because I have found L4 to be invaluable to my Bible Study. In fact, I probably would have paid more for my upgrade then what I did. Not only do I believe L4 is the best Bible software out there, I believe it is a solid platform AS IT IS even though I have to turn to 3 for certain things for the time being. Beyond this the beta program has shown to me that behind this solid platform is a sharp, creative, and technically innovative company. I have seen these programmers work tirelessly to get this program ready, often posting messages after 10pm. They have listened to us and responded to our suggestions. Would I have felt ripped off if I paid $300 so that I could wait 12 hours to index and several to download, then found out I couldn't print and do other things I thought were going to be there. Yes. Do I feel ripped off paying $300 for the program I got to trial test for 8 weeks. No. In fact, I feel like I'm ripping Bob off. I believe in it and the company behind it that much.
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KevinJones said:
I paid for a half baked beta version that was pitched as the Bible study reimagined. I have an entry level staff position with a church, and it isn't paying much.
No you didn't. The engine was completely free.
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Philip Spitzer said:
I believe L4 is the best Bible software out there, I believe it is a solid platform AS IT IS even though I have to turn to 3 for certain things for the time being.
Bob mentioned earlier or in another feed about buying a car. He didn't expect to have certain features in the new car that he had in the old. But I guarantee you that each car had seats or an engine. L4 is eye-candy. It has a lot of neat things, but it has no engine. Maybe my power using days of libronix is coming out, but I expect there to be printing and there is not printing until 1st quarter 2010. I know that I am able to copy to Word -- which is a drag -- but you are unable to print search results. You can't copy them to Word you cannot print them....at all. Also, being a Bible Study program that emphasizes the greek and hebrew...i am unable to type in the original language. I spoke with some people in Technical Support and they cannot find a way to do this. (Side note - I can hear the frustration in their voices, too. They seem to have questions that are unanswered, too).
I am not griping about features. I am griping about critical "engine" things that are missing. I have used Logos for decades (anyone remember cdword library? I have it). I have spent more than $3000 this year. I am a paying customer. I am not abandoning ship-just frustrated that my sales rep didn't mention to me that I couldn't do certain things.
John
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Mike Aubrey said:KevinJones said:
I paid for a half baked beta version that was pitched as the Bible study reimagined. I have an entry level staff position with a church, and it isn't paying much.
No you didn't. The engine was completely free.
I have heard this quite a bit. If it is free, then maybe CS at Logos should be on the same page. I just spoke with someone in Technical Support and she kept telling me that I "bought" a version of Logos and not necessarily a license for new books.
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Bob,
You guys have been so responsive to our impassioned pleas. I never much used either of these features in v3.0 and was a bit hesitant to start in 4 lest I lose all.
BTW. My list of 50 things I'd still love to see is still around
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It sound overall like Logos is moving very quickly and in an almost Redmond style. From the comments I have heard here the problem appears to be an absence of something like a road map. Before I get L4 I would like to see a feature map that takes me from a feature in 3 to that feature in r4. Also where is the documentation (high level) that shows what changed, removed, added, etc?
The demo and these comments done encourage me to buy this new package of which this is the first time I have heard of it. Frankly, for a move this big where was the unveiling? How much thought went into this? I am on daily and this is the first I heard 4 was coming. I like 3 and Logos has done very little to educate me about 4 up to this point. That is poor marketing.
Dan Fugett, DBA, MSCIS, BSIT, AAB
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JohnKaess said:
4. People keep saying "but Logos 3 still works" so everything is OK" Really? Where are the several hundred resources I paid for when I upgraded my Logos 3 Gold to Logos 4 Platinum? Where is even a concise and complete LISTING of what those new files are? Where is the automatic download to add those files to Logos 3? I paid for a beta version of Logos 4 that is missing many key features of Logos 3, but hey, it's OK cause I have Logos 3 right? NOOOOOO! I have the old resources of Logos 3, NOT the Platinum resources I paid for. I paid $425 to get the worst of both worlds.
To quote myself from my ignored post above, I keep being told i paid for the resources, noit the program. That would be true if I could use the new resources in Logos 3, but I can't. there is no way to get the resources available in Platinum that i did not have in Gold into Logos 3. There is no download script and in most cases there is not a functioning version of a logos 3 compatible resource to download if there even was a script. I paid for resources I can not use outside of Logos 4 and Logos 4 is a feature missing, misleading, non-reimagined and for me, mostly non-functional software program. The ability to print and to copy and paste directly to Word are central, key, necessary functions of Logos 3.
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I am curious if anyone addressed your complaint?
Is a refund an option?
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John Fugh, Jr. said:
L4 is eye-candy. It has a lot of neat things, but it has no engine.
I can understand your saying this. As of matter of fact I can understand everything you are saying. Printing should be there. But the truth is I havn't missed it. I never used it in three and I would rather copy and paste it to Word so i can format it and get it on fewer pages. However I recognize that that is my preferance and printing should be there. It just doesn't effect my decision to love the program. As far as typing in Greek and Hebrew goes...at least in the morphological search you in a way do. I know what appears in the box is the english letter you push, but the Greek is right below it. you have a choice of which line to look at. Once again after using it for 8 weeks I find the new system far superior.
I would actually say that my experience with L4 leads me to the opposite conclusion. L4 has all engine but needs the refining features. Printing to me is a refining feature. I can find the information, study the information, organize the information. Those are the engine to me. Printing to me is more an accessory. Granted its like a car without a stereo. You naturally expect to get a stereo with your car. But I can still drive the car without the stereo. I can still study the Bible without the printing. Bob focused his attention on making sure features essential to the study of the Bible were in place. Unfortunately they ran out of time for some of the "essential accessories." I have learned to drive the car without a stereo. If I had paid 8 weeks ago and found out I didn't have a stereo with the car I would have been very disappointed. But after having driven the car and seeing how much better it gets the actual Bible study done over 3.0 and Bibleworks it just seems worth it to me. I'm glad the focused on getting what they did right rather then decking it out with accessories at the expense of the engine.
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JohnKaess said:
The ability to print and to copy and paste directly to Word a central, key, necessary function of Logos 3.
Hi John,
I work in Word, too. So I miss CBV in the system tray. I miss Smart Tags, too. And (like many of the beta testers), I was put off by the radical change in L4's UI. But I'm finding that I CAN copy / paste into Word. Are you finding that you can't?
However, L4 has (& continues) to grow on me to the point that I'm using it as much as I can for basic research. When I move over into sermon writing, I'm finding that I still drop back to L3 because of smart tags & CBV in the system tray...
But... though SmartTags remains an issue for me, did you know that you can open CBV in L4 as a floating window? As a floating window (ergo appearing in my list of open windows to the left of the system tray), I'm finding it almost as handy as L3's CBV.
I guess what I'm trying to do is encourage you to try L4... It's so radically different from L3 that it offers us better & more efficient ways to work.
And if that weren't enough, Bob said in another post today that they're working on making the L4 resources available to us in L3. Soon. In the 15 years I've been doing business with Logos I've found his word to be "bankable."
Blessings to you...
Bill
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
DanFugett said:
I am curious if anyone addressed your complaint?
Is a refund an option?
Yes. They gave me the option. I am in the process of locating the books in platinum that I do not have in l3 Gold and downloading them from ftp.logos.com. I just completed the pillar series and they come up in v.3. So, I am waiting to see if the books that are available in platinum are able to be d/l to v3 and the cost benefit analysis of keeping the books and using 3.
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Bill Stonebraker said:
But I'm finding that I CAN copy / paste into Word. Are you finding that you can't?
You are unable to copy and paste a search result. Say I do a search on a specific use of a greek word in Johannine writings. I would prefer to print it so that I am able to mark it up with a pencil as such. I cannot copy and paste anything from a search result window.
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Hi John,
Gotcha... and right you are. In my interactions with L4 so far, I'm finding LOTS of places where I have to learn how to work differently... ergo I've decided to leave L3 in place for awhile yet (& posted as a beta tester that the biggest competitor to L4 was going to be getting me to shut L3 off). But there's still enough there that I'm interested in hanging with them. For me, the move from L2 to L3 was the same scenario... but they were so faithful in getting & tuning L3 that I soon regretted my decision to stay with L2.
I can already see that L4 will be the same. And it's already more productive (at least for me) than L3 was when it was 1st released. I'd still encourage you to hang in there. They're honorable folks, & they'll make it right to you.
Blessings!
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
JohnKaess said:
I've just joined the group who feels misled. Here are the main issues I have with the current Beta version of Logos 4:
1. The missing features should have been PROMINENTLY pointed out with links and lists at least large enough to be noticed on EVERY page tauting the new Logos 4 release.
Yeah, it could have been more obvious. But, if you wanted to find out more, there was a link to "Click here for more information" that led to the information about what's new and what isn't. You obviously expected something and didn't get it. Most of what you're looking for is coming.
JohnKaess said:2. Printing? Printing? Who i the world thought that printing was optional or not needed? I don't care what I do in Logos, if I can't print it or smart tag or caopy/paste it into Word, its worthless!!! and NONE of those "features" are available in Logos 4!
I never print from Logos. Wouldn't dream of it. I always copy/paste reformat in WordPerfect and then print. You can copy/paste into Word, who said you can't? Smart tags, aren't working now. They may come back. There was some discussion of this in the Beta process, I don't think it was resolved.
But more printing options are coming to L4 in the next few months.
JohnKaess said:3. The HELP files. To say they are poor is a major understatement. I've been a Logos user since 2.0. I'm pretty competent with Logos 3 and have been to Camp Logos. What the Help file should have been at a bare minimum is: for any option, report, menu item, or process in Logos 3, if that is typed into the Logos 4 help file, it should tell you how to do the same or similar thing in Logos 4 or it should say there is no way to do that in Logos 4. I can't begin to describe how many hours I've spend in the help files NOT getting answers to how to do Logos 3 things in Logos 4.
At first there was almost nothing in the help files, so I learned to use L4 without them. It really wasn't that difficult, and after a while you start to learn how to find things. But these forums are a great place to ask how-to questions. and there are enough beta testers here that at least one of us can probably answer any question. If the last few days are any indication, most questions are answered in a few minutes. The help file is still being developed as program items become solidified. Writing good help files is one of the most difficult parts of the process and the program has been a bit of a moving target for the last few months. So be patient, I'm sure they'll get better. In the mean time, these forums are the best help file you've got.
BTW, I've been a Logos user since 1.6.
JohnKaess said:4. People keep saying "but Logos 3 still works" so everything is OK" Really? Where are the several hundred resources I paid for when I upgraded my Logos 3 Gold to Logos 4 Platinum? Where is even a concise and complete LISTING of what those new files are? Where is the automatic download to add those files to Logos 3? I paid for a beta version of Logos 4 that is missing many key features of Logos 3, but hey, it's OK cause I have Logos 3 right? NOOOOOO! I have the old resources of Logos 3, NOT the Platinum resources I paid for. I paid $425 to get the worst of both worlds.
A few of those resources are still in development. And that should have been clarified on the page, I think. But they'll be here shortly.
Further, nearly all of the new resources are being rebuilt for Logos 3. Bradley has said that they are working on an update script to put them into your LDLS resource folder and available to Libronix hopefully within a week or so. A bibliography report from L4 is still a ways off, according to the schedule. There's been a lot of talk on the forums for a need for it, so Logos may revise their plans for it.
There are very few features in L3 that are missing in L4. Many things L3 does L4 does differently, a few are still in the works, and a few will be dropped for lack of interest. If you want to be specific about what you want, maybe we can tell you if it can be done in L4 and how, or that it can't, or can't yet.
And yes, you can use L3 and L4; you can even use them at the same time. There are a couple of things I use L3 for yet (I've got some note files I need to access, once in a while). But for the most part I don't miss anything else about L3, and when I do use it now, it feels clunky.
So hang in there John. You'll get what you paid for, it'll just take some time for the full value of it to sink in, and for the final components to fall into place.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
I never print from Logos. Wouldn't dream of it. I always copy/paste reformat in WordPerfect and then print. You can copy/paste into Word, who said you can't?
You may not print - some do. I know you understand that. But there are areas of v4 that you cannot copy and paste to Word. Example: From search result lists. (See my earlier post.)
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DanFugett said:
Before I get L4 I would like to see a feature map that takes me from a feature in 3 to that feature in r4.
http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures
DanFugett said:Frankly, for a move this big where was the unveiling? How much thought went into this?
About 4 years of thought. :-) I'm sorry it came as a surprise, though that was intentional. For many reasons we decided to try an "Apple style" unveiling rather than our previous "Microsoft style" year-long public betas.
We're working very hard to get more features into the product, and appreciate the feedback we're getting from all of you. It's good, because sometimes we forget your priorities and ours are different. I, for example, think Logos 4 is "all engine", because I know how much work we did to rewrite the guts. And I (almost) live in a "post-printing-world". I'm always surprised to hear how important it is to some people, since I don't happen to do it much. (If I say it's a green, eco-friendly feature to not have printing, does that help? <smile>) We need to be reminded what's important to you, so we can keep it high on the list.
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Wow, I think there is a need to step back a bit and get a full perspective on L4.
It will enable more people to get deeper into the word of God and the literature that supports the adventure of exploring the word than L3. The basic approach was a redesign to enable an easier entry into the resources available without having to be a techno savvy person and to bring advanced bible study on the computer to the common person rather than just the "Christian geek". I think L4 has done that. Where it has to grow is adding the upper story features that those who have used the previous versions of Logos miss.
L4 should have a wider appeal than the versions that have gone before it. More people will use it and find it useful. This will make the product stronger and be better for all of its users in the long run.
Like many other beta testers, I found L4 an adjustment. In fact, it wasn't until one night when some of my input devices didn't work that I discovered how different the new version was from the old. I discovered how to use the software in some new and exciting ways. From that point forward, I saw the potential the new format had and have not gone back to the L3, except for smart tags and some other features. I say this to point out that sometimes it harder to unlearn to learn than it is to just learn something without previous experience. So don't give up, and for some of the critics be patient, and see the big picture. The potential here is for a tool that could change many many lives because of the access they can have to a mature level of study in God's word. The printing press made the word of God available to the masses. L4 could have the same type of impact on the church of Jesus Christ. This is my prayer!
IMHO,
Pastor Chris McFarland
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John Fugh, Jr. said:
You may not print - some do. I know you understand that. But there are areas of v4 that you cannot copy and paste to Word. Example: From search result lists. (See my earlier post.)
Oh, I know people do print. John's wording seemed to suggest that "without printing L4 is useless." In fact he said, "Who in the world thought that printing was optional or not needed?" Well, I'm not part of the development team, but I don't think it's necessary -- at least not for me. But I've heard about people wanting to print whole books from Logos. I know the desire is there, but I just can't imagine doing it myself.
I do agree that there are times to save search results. In L3 we used verse lists for that. Well, I don't know what you did, that's what I did. Verse lists are coming back, by request, so we should be able to get most of this back.
But mostly I saw John's post and saw that no one really responded to it. So I decided to give it a go. There's another post of his that no one responded to as well. I may tackle that one, but right now I'm waiting to see what he might have to say about my responses to him in his original post.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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While this is not a major concern of mine at least not yet, I do appreciate the time you are taking to monitor the forums. Your customers appreciate it. How many ceo's do you know who answer customer questions on forums and news groups?
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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John,
Yes...I feel your pain..I REALLY REALLY want that functionality...but I know it's coming so I'm content to wait...to paste a jpg in word and mark that up...it's not a perm solution but it's fine for me for now. And as Richard pointed out....this functionality didn't exist in V3 did it?
the "send to verse list" was a V3 workaround instead of "print search results" right?
As to your comment about typing in greek....did you see Georges comment about downloading the Greek/Hewbrew keyboards? I've done that since the beginning...I'm used to it...though I've now done it both ways...it can be done painlessly.
PS: And as Bob P has said numerous times; the options were: Get the software out with the features that 90% of the userbase uses...OR wait 6 months to put in the features that 10% or less of the users want...it's a lose lose for Logos...SOMEBODY is going to be unhappy no matter how you slice it.
Me? I'm happy.
My system works like a charm, its' fast and responsive, and the things I miss...JUST LIKE IN V3 I make a work around...
You always have the option to get a refund, and then wait until next year and repurchase with the options now functional that you see as most important.
bob
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Richard DeRuiter said:
So hang in there John. You'll get what you paid for, it'll just take some time for the full value of it to sink in, and for the final components to fall into place.
Richard, I'm amazed at how you can produce such lengthy, well-reasoned articles when I struggle to produce a paragraph, especially with the volume of issues that have arisen since Release.
Very well done,
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave,
Although I do agree with you that Richard has the gift...
I have to be honest that I've also had the same attitude toward many of your posts...usually after I realize just how astute you were in writing a certain post I curl up in a fetal position and turn Logos off....[8-)]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Ahh, Bob. It's past midnight here and I almost curled up with laughter at your remark!
blessings,
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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