Off Topic: Good and Bad Preaching
The following questions are addressed specifically to the lay members of the forums. This was the specific request made within the group from which it came.
I have just received a dare from a group of pastors to which I belong to ask a couple of simple questions: What is one characteristic of good preaching? And, what is one characteristic of bad preaching?
Just to be honest, I do plan on sharing answers with the group without giving the sources - but it is my hope that answers will help me and othesr to become better preachers.
Thanks in advance for any answers.
Blessings,
Floyd
Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
Comments
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Floyd Johnson said:
I have just received a dare from a group of pastors to which I belong to ask a couple of simple questions: What is one characteristic of good preaching? And, what is one characteristic of bad preaching?
My opinions [:)]
Good Characteristic: Expository preaching. The minister should expand on what he just read. I love it when it is obvious that he done his homework and can explain why he is teaching the way that he is.
Bad Characteristic: I actually have a couple but sticking with just one I would have to say yelling from the pulpit. I can hear you, I promise. Your message is actually less effective to me when you yell because it is very annoying and I then tune you out and start checking my watch.
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Floyd,
Wow....that's not a Monday morning kind'a question. Good preaching is at its core a reflection upon how a word from God speaks to me and calls me to respond. Inversely, poor or bad preaching is my musings about my world devoid of any real word from God or call to respond to God's word.
Now..back to my Monday morning nap.
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Rick said:
yelling from the pulpit.
I had preachers leave the pulpit and had my hair blow back as they came close.
Good preachin....a word from God spoken with His nature proceeding from the spokesman.
Bad preachin...too many points to remember instead of one main point that requires reflection.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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I have observed that the best preaching happens when the preacher gets out of the way of the Holy Spirit and lets HIS message flow. When this happens each member of the congregaton feels that the message was tailored just for him/her. Homework is important, ist is one of the ways we pray for the Spirit to provide a good message, but surrender is much more important.
The worst preaching happens when we bring our own message and prejudice to the pulpit.
Bob - 17" MBP quad 2.3GHz 4GB and iMAC
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Jerry M said:
too many points to remember instead of one main point that requires reflection
[Y]
Technically I am a lay person (until I find my next ministry). I won't expound any further, other than to agree with Jerry. [:)]
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Good: Relevant to real life, clear flow and easy to follow the train of thought, speaks to what the scripture is actually saying.
Bad: Academic/theoretical, disorganized/meandering, speaks to preacher's personal opinions or just a string of anecdotal stories.
Disclaimer: I'm an occasional lay preacher myself.
Peter
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Not to be too much the contrarian, but I would say good/bad preaching is under the heading 'know your audience'.
In each of the 'bad preaching' examples above, I've been in congregations, where many would be viewed as 'good'.
Yesterday, after the sermon by a visiting missionary, one person thought the sermon was very uplifting (impressed by the shouting, culturally effective in Africa).
In a second conversation, the older folks were saying they couldn't hear it (due to the preacher varying his points).
Some folks want it 'straight from the Bible'. Others don't see the point without a heavy dose of 'daily living' examples.
Some aren't going to be happy without some heavily biased points. For others, it's an immediate turn-off.
Again, I suspect good preaching is relative to listening to the congregation and their needs.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Good:
Clarity, especially using everyday language and illustrations from what is really happening "in the world out there." Accuracy in use of scripture and reflecting both the time and the tone as well as the core definitional meanings of the scripture.
Bad:
Unapplied commentary. If you simply tell me stuff *about* the scripture without helping me understand what changes I can make to improve, you haven't helped me very much. Head knowledge unapplied is virtually worthless. Give ms something to do or to change, please?0 -
Steve Hultquist said:
Head knowledge unapplied is virtually worthless. Give ms something to do or to change, please?
[Y]
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Good: when preacher is preaching at him/herself, not just a message for the laity in the pews. When he/she speaks from a position of weakness, with which I can identify,not from 6 feet above contradiction, which switches me off.
Bad (we get it here from one preacher who ought to know better...): harranguing, long irrelevant lectures on etymology. Also mumbling! If acoustics are bad, get someone to stand in the part of the church where it's hardest to hear and make you go on until you can be heard.
If Bible passage doesn't impact me, it won't impact anyone else either.
I think a reaLLY HELPFUL SERMON for me IS ONE THAT opens my heart to hear what God is saying to me, so that at the end I've got my message from God, sparked off by what the preacher said, but now I couldn't for the life of me tell you what the preACHER SAID.
Another helpful sort of sermon is one that opens up whole new dimensions in a Bible passage I thought I knew and understood.
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Floyd Johnson said:
What is one characteristic of good preaching? And, what is one characteristic of bad preaching?
Good: a priest who encouraged my reflections (preaching) said that the mark of a good homily was two-fold: first, when someone thanked you for saying something that they consider an answer to a difficult that you don't even know you said and second, when a few weeks later someone comments on something from a sermon they heard recently and they don't remember who preached it.
Bad: when the homily (i.e. breaking open the Word) is replaced by a short glance towards the Word only to be replaced by a plea to support some cause financially.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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nicky crane said:
I think a reaLLY HELPFUL SERMON for me IS ONE THAT opens my heart to hear what God is saying to me, so that at the end I've got my message from God, sparked off by what the preacher said, but now I couldn't for the life of me tell you what the preACHER SAID.
Another helpful sort of sermon is one that opens up whole new dimensions in a Bible passage I thought I knew and understood.
[Y][Y][Y][Y][Y][C] (cup accounts for the other five fingers)
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Any preaching that Glorifies Jesus, encourages/challenges us to decide to live on the cutting edge is good preaching, everything else isnt neccesarily "bad" as there are times we need a kick in the pants, and preaching is NOT teaching, but when I hear "preachers" not using scripture, or they dont care for/feed the sheep in their care, then I would be very concerned.
Sadly there may be those in the pulpit who are there beacuse those with the gifting arent doing what God has called them to, the preacher who might be a gifted teacher or evangelist is encouraged/forced to do it because its expected (small churches especially), and although God honors the preaching of his word, its not the area of his anooninting/skill, and consequently the Chiurch is missing out on the fullness of everything God wants to do.. Within the constraints of your church structure, and with your leaders/elders backing - if you have a gift - dont sit back - use it rather than just giving the minister an extra encouragement/push
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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A good sermon (particularly one based on the O.T.) preaches Christ in the context of the history of redemption.
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Good Sermon - Every application or illustration should point to the "Gospel of Jesus Christ"! The sermon should always point to Christ, and the LOVE he has for us. Through our faith in Christ, (no works required in salvation), we are justified and He positionally gives us His Righteousness which we do not deserve. When we receive the "Gift" of His Righteousness, this is when we have HOPE, and this is what makes a GREAT SERMON! [Y]
Bad Sermon - Politically correct and Seeker Sensitive messages that are watered down and don't accurately interpret the Word of God. The Gospel of Christ is offensive, because it separates people. A bad sermon is one that has "universal" ways to salvation. There is only one correct interpretation of the Bible, but there are many applications. Interpret rightly... and preach application illustratively but don't stray for away from the TRUTH! [N]
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Good: "Brethren, we could well manage to be half as intellectual if we were twice as spiritual. Preaching is a spiritual business. A sermon born in the head reaches the head. A sermon born in the heart reaches the heart. A spiritual preacher will under God produce spiritually-minded people. Unction is not a gentle dove beating her wings against the bars outside of the preacher's soul; rather she must be pursued and won. Unction cannot be learned, only earned by prayer. Unction is God's knighthood for the soldier-preacher who has wrestled in prayer and gained the victory. Victory is not won in the pulpit by firing intellectual bullets or wisecracks, but in the prayer closet. The meeting is won or lost before the preacher's foot enters the pulpit. Unction is like perfume. Unction is like dynamite. Unction comes not by the medium of the bishop's hands, neither does it mildew when the preacher is cast into prison. Unction will pierce and percolate. It will sweeten and soften. When the hammer of logic and the fire of human zeal fail to open the stony heart, unction will succeed."
Bad: "The tragedy of this last hour is that we have too many dead men in the pulpits giving out too many dead sermons to too many dead people. There is a strange thing that I have seen even in the fundamentalist circles: it is preaching without unction. What is unction? I hardly know what it is, but I know what it is not, or at least I know when it is not upon my own soul. Preaching without unction kills instead of giving life. The unctionless preacher is a savor of death unto death. The Word does not live unless the unction is upon the preacher. Preacher, with all thy getting, get unction."
UNCTION! By Leonard Ravenhill (Standard disclaimer... I don't agree with everything Leonard ever said, or all of his theology, but MAN! He was spot-on with this)
"I read dead people..."
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Brother Mark said:
Good: "Brethren, we could well manage to be half as intellectual if we were twice as spiritual. Preaching is a spiritual business. A sermon born in the head reaches the head. A sermon born in the heart reaches the heart. A spiritual preacher will under God produce spiritually-minded people. Unction is not a gentle dove beating her wings against the bars outside of the preacher's soul; rather she must be pursued and won. Unction cannot be learned, only earned by prayer. Unction is God's knighthood for the soldier-preacher who has wrestled in prayer and gained the victory. Victory is not won in the pulpit by firing intellectual bullets or wisecracks, but in the prayer closet. The meeting is won or lost before the preacher's foot enters the pulpit. Unction is like perfume. Unction is like dynamite. Unction comes not by the medium of the bishop's hands, neither does it mildew when the preacher is cast into prison. Unction will pierce and percolate. It will sweeten and soften. When the hammer of logic and the fire of human zeal fail to open the stony heart, unction will succeed."
Bad: "The tragedy of this last hour is that we have too many dead men in the pulpits giving out too many dead sermons to too many dead people. There is a strange thing that I have seen even in the fundamentalist circles: it is preaching without unction. What is unction? I hardly know what it is, but I know what it is not, or at least I know when it is not upon my own soul. Preaching without unction kills instead of giving life. The unctionless preacher is a savor of death unto death. The Word does not live unless the unction is upon the preacher. Preacher, with all thy getting, get unction."
Beautiful -- I believe the “unction” you describe is the “Spirit of
God” moving in man. I say right on
Brother! That will preach!!!0 -
Good: When it comes from and is delivered from the heart. 2 Tim. 4:2.. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Bad: When a text is read, the sermon thought is given, and the preacher preaches everything except the text/thought that was given. 1 Cor. 10:23 [*-)].
Armwood
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Thanks for all the pointers.
A preacher.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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A good sermon is about Jesus Christ and what He has done, about His righteous life lived in our stead, His sacrificial death on the cross and His resurrection assuring us of eternal life.
A bad sermon is about me or the preacher. I don't want to hear about the preacher I need to hear the gospel every Lord's day.0 -
Good Sermon:
- Verse by verse expository preaching
- Teaches and instructs the flock of believers
- Contains the Gospel message
- Theologically sound
- Glorifies God
Bad Sermon:
- Topical, not verse by verse preaching
- Unbeliever focused
- Preaches an unbiblical gospel
- Theologically incorrect
- Glorifies man
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Good:
Christ-centered, expository preaching prepared and delivered by a man of prayer, who is diligent in study and loves his flock.
Bad:
A sermon, such that when heard or read 150 years later, the hearer or reader would be clueless as to the message.
Ditto when translated into another language.
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Ryan said:
Good Sermon:
- Teaches and instructs the flock of believers
- Contains the Gospel message
Bad Sermon:
- Unbeliever focused
If a good sermon is discipling the believers, why would it contain the gospel..... haven't believers already accepted the gospel? And if bad sermons are unbeliever focused, that leaves no room for evangelistic preaching? I'm guessing the apostles would disagree.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. ...
"I read dead people..."
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Brother Mark said:
If a good sermon is discipling the believers, why would it contain the gospel
Because we need it.
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Brother Mark said:
If a good sermon is discipling the believers,
Okay, I'll bite. What does "disciplining" mean in this context?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Robert M. Warren said:Brother Mark said:
If a good sermon is discipling the believers, why would it contain the gospel
Because we need it.
Apologies Robert, I wasn't very clear: You characterized good preaching as including the gospel for believers, and contrasted that against bad preaching specifically because it focuses on unbelievers (presumably by including the gospel).
"I read dead people..."
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MJ. Smith said:Brother Mark said:
If a good sermon is discipling the believers,
Okay, I'll bite. What does "disciplining" mean in this context?
A fair question. In this context, I was specifically thinking about Christ's final commission to go, disciple, baptize and teach them to obey. And again, in this context, I subscribe to the definition "to be a pupil, with implication of being an adherent of the teacher" (BDAG), and was intended to encompass all five points of a good sermon in his original post.
Nothing hidden or ominous [;)] (well, in THIS context)
"I read dead people..."
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Brother Mark said:
Nothing hidden or ominous
(well, in THIS context)Thanks - now it strikes me as a weird use of English.[:)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Brother Mark said:
If a good sermon is discipling the believers, why would it contain the gospel..... haven't believers already accepted the gospel?
The Gospel is the "fire in my furnace," apart from it, I have nothing. Every time I share the Gospel with someone, God shares his "Love Story" with me all over again.
We need to live our life as if Christ was crucified and rose again, just yesterday.
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I really like Steve's whole answer:
Steve Hultquist said:Good:
Clarity, especially using everyday language and illustrations from what is really happening "in the world out there." Accuracy in use of scripture and reflecting both the time and the tone as well as the core definitional meanings of the scripture.
Bad:
Unapplied commentary. If you simply tell me stuff *about* the scripture without helping me understand what changes I can make to improve, you haven't helped me very much. Head knowledge unapplied is virtually worthless. Give ms something to do or to change, please?I do think it depends on who you are preaching to:
- The Church needs to hear the apostle's doctrine and commands of the Lord.
- The unsaved need to hear the Gospel.
"Give me something to do or to change" !
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I find an interesting grouping of opinions here - I haven't figured out what to make of it yet. But some emphasize that the message of the sermon should be determined by God/Holy Spirit/unction ... A larger group emphasizes the role of the preacher or of the Bible as text. Anyone else see that or am I reading my own bias into the collection of answers?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I think you are right MJ, its a very subjective question, am amazed the diveresity is as narrow as it currently is
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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MJ: Thanks - now it strikes me as a weird use of English
Discipling is translatese from
μαθητεύσατε make disciples in Matthew 28:19.
Has passed into evangelical jargon. Is in fact useful shorthand for "helping people to grow as disciples of Jesus."
We even use it in Albanian as the very clumsy Dishepullizimi I(from Dishepull), which I obviously use more than I realised as
when I complained about girls coming casually to the group I run for the more committed girls and disrupting it, when I was trying to do a sample Bible study so they could have a model to help them in their own Bible study at home, my semi-literate neighbour commented that the extra meeting is in fact for dishepulliizimi, not just for casual droppers in.I think discipling might in some ways correspond to the idea, if you still have it in the States, in the Catholic Church of nurturing a youngster who appears to have a vocation to the priesthood or as a Sister. Mother Tereza often said that many vocations in children were lost for lack of nurture. (I know that today the need is often more to test a vocation. We often get told off by someone who should know better for failing to produce vocations - I thought vocation were callings from God, not human productions, but here I am OT!!)0 -
Super Tramp said:
I do think it depends on who you are preaching to:
- The Church needs to hear the apostle's doctrine and commands of the Lord.
- The unsaved need to hear the Gospel.
Tramp (er, "Super"... umm "ST"?) -
I have a thought that I have been mulling around for a bit, which I have not unpacked with anyone yet. Often preachers talk about the different needs of believers from seekers/unsaved, etc. I think, however, that the basic need is always the same - to be drawn in to a closer relationship with the Father through Christ! Even when the pastor is preaching on a topic such as tithing, doesn't it boil down to relationship?
I believe that the unchurched need to hear the teachings of Christ and His apostles, and that believers need to hear the Gospel. Personally, I like to thing of the Church service as a "family expecting guests." The family shouldn't change who they are when company arrives, but they need to make people feel welcome.
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alabama24 said:Jerry M said:
too many points to remember instead of one main point that requires reflection
Technically I am a lay person (until I find my next ministry). I won't expound any further, other than to agree with Jerry.
That sounds very much like what I said when we left Church yesterday morning. Too much text inadequately covered in an excessive amount of time.
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For me, a good preacher is one who makes it clear the reasoning and method behind the move from exegesis of the text to the message to the congregation. It needs to be clear what is clear from the Bible and what is the preacher's advice. Too often I spend time during sermons trying to convince myself whether the preacher's "it says it here, so it must be true in exactly the same way today" approach is justified or whether there needs to be a more careful consideration of how the Bible applies to us today. Having spent many many years in evangelical churches, very rarely have I heard a preacher really wrestle with and make clear to me how to interpret the Bible.
However, I realize that most of the congregation probably doesn't think about things in quite the same way as I do. Many may be turned off if the preacher went into the detail that I want. As one poster above said, know your audience.
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Robert M. Warren said:Brother Mark said:
If a good sermon is discipling the believers, why would it contain the gospel
Because we need it.
A wise elderly lady once said to me, "Christians need to hear the Gospel also; it makes them love Jesus more."
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Floyd Johnson said:
The following questions are addressed specifically to the lay members of the forums. This was the specific request made within the group from which it came.
I have just received a dare from a group of pastors to which I belong to ask a couple of simple questions: What is one characteristic of good preaching? And, what is one characteristic of bad preaching?
Just to be honest, I do plan on sharing answers with the group without giving the sources - but it is my hope that answers will help me and othesr to become better preachers.Thanks in advance for any answers.
I haven't read this thread in its entirety yet, but here is my answer. Good preaching = Expository Preaching. You get the entire Bible preached. Bad preaching = Topical preaching. You get the feel good in the moment not the entire Bible preached.
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Hi:
I am a minister, but was a lay in the past.
Good preaching: Spiritual message with teaching pockets that instruct and inspire the congregation to learn more about the Bible and to get closer to God.
Bad preaching: Academic vocabulary that the people do not understand, too technical, dry and unrelated to their daily live problems.
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Rev. Nannette La Fosse said:
Hi:
I am a minister, but was a lay in the past.
Good preaching: Spiritual message with teaching pockets that instruct and inspire the congregation to learn more about the Bible and to get closer to God.
Bad preaching: Academic vocabulary that the people do not understand, too technical, dry and unrelated to their daily live problems.
Nannette, I totally agree that this is the way many church members perceive good and bad preaching, however it has always frustrated as an aspiring pastor. Why is it that we have to almost "trick" listeners into hearing the word of God through smooth speech and catchy phrases instead of inviting them to come sift through the wealth of language they are perfectly capable to pursue.
I agree that speaking language over everyone's head benefits no one, but in a sermon where essentially we have the ability to reflect and study, shouldn't there be some academic rigor to the language being spoken?
I wish I could appeal to both the student and the non student
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Thanks for this thread. Interesting.
I don't know exactly what makes good preaching, but I know it when I hear it. It takes many forms and styles. I know bad preaching when I hear it, too.
Some good preaching: I could name some names. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, John Piper, Maxie Dunnam, Billy Graham, Bill Bouknight, David Seamonds, N. T. Wright, David Wilkerson, John Ed Mathison, Jimmy Buskirk, Adrian Rogers, Charles Spurgeon... Of course, good preaching is not imitating some other good preacher, but it helps so hear some examples. A preacher must be authentic.
Some bad preaching: When Scripture, Sermon, and Real Life remain strangers throughout the message. God wants you rich - prosperity preachin'. I could name some names here, too, but I won't.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Robert M. Warren said:Brother Mark said:
If a good sermon is discipling the believers, why would it contain the gospel
Because we need it.
If I may expand on that answer: As Christians we need the constant reminder that our salvation was the result of the obedience and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, not our work and striving. As still-fallen creatures, we will continuously try to revert to depending on our work for assurance of salvation, so we need the constant reminder of the Gospel.
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I recently posed a form of this thread's central question to our church board, along with a buffet of possible responses as to what makes a "good" sermon. The consensus response from our board was that there was no consensus response.
My definition of a "good" sermon is one that offers the word God deems necessary for that sermon's audience -- a definition that offers less importance to sermon form, structure, or methodology, and more importance to sermon relevance and origin.
I remind all of us that it is wise to approach the task of defining "good" sermons with all possible humility. There are many Sundays when *I* think my sermon has hit it out of the homiletical ball park, but the congregation reacts with indifference. AND, there are many Sundays when, for me, the sermon lacks focus or consequence, but the congregation reacts with passion and conviction. Go figure.
If a sermon is preached in a congregation, and no one is changed by it, does it make a difference?
Bill
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Michael Childs said:
Some good preaching: I could name some names. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, John Piper, Maxie Dunnam, Billy Graham, Bill Bouknight, David Seamonds, N. T. Wright, David Wilkerson, John Ed Mathison, Jimmy Buskirk, Adrian Rogers, Charles Spurgeon... Of course, good preaching is not imitating some other good preacher, but it helps so hear some examples. A preacher must be authentic.
Some bad preaching: When Scripture, Sermon, and Real Life remain strangers throughout the message. God wants you rich - prosperity preachin'. I could name some names here, too, but I won't.
Michael,
You gave us some great examples of "good preaching" but you stopped short of "bad preaching"... Who are some examples you could give us for bad preaching?[:)]
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Good: after 25 yrs of preaching I found out that asking questions and let people think for themselves is the best: John 4:29 "Can this be the Christ?” Come and see for yourself. After reading a passage I ask what they have just heard. And they preach my sermon before I preach it. The points are right there... expository, but after they have figured it out for themselves...
Bad: just headknowledge.
Preaching is for the whole person: information (head), appellation (emotion) and motivation (will).
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This probably will sound really simplistic, but it is something I've never forgotten:
Good - Any sermon that brings us to the foot of the cross of Christ, encouraging us to behold His Glory in all that the act and the history leading up to that act entail.
This will strengthen the motivation of the hearers to be transformed. Whatever the theme, this is the goal.
Bad - Any sermon that doesn't do the above.
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Bill Coley said:
If a sermon is preached in a congregation, and no one is changed by it, ...
Might be he definitive response for what characterizes a bad sermon
"I read dead people..."
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MJD said:
Michael,
You gave us some great examples of "good preaching" but you stopped short of "bad preaching"... Who are some examples you could give us for bad preaching?
I would think you wouldn't know the names of the "bad" as they live in anonymity, but that may not be the case (unless of course you equate bad with "doesn't see things the way I do")
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Good: Expository preaching. Relevant applications. Interesting illustrations. Good sense of humor. Invitation to accept Christ.
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Who are examples of bad preaching? Well, you know who you are! Seriously, I decided not to go negative. I tend to do that too much.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0
