Performance issues. Logos 4.3 SR-3 (4.30.0.1592) -> Beach ball of death

I am noticing performance hits with the latest version of 4.3 (SR3). Even after disabling 'Enable Internet' in settings as I noticed it was doing so at unnecessary & excessive times and every time it did essentially Logos 4 would be non-responsive.

I saved a simple layout, then restarted Logos and loaded the layout. The layout has about 12 tabs (5 Bibles, various books, PG, EG, 2 x BWS and a search "lemma:ראשׁית@NCcSFC") but performance is not good. Even after everything finally displays the CPUs are being driven hard with CPU temp shooting up from 39ºC to 51ºC (see screenshots). If I navigate away from Logos and go back I get the beach ball, the screen takes time to redraw and one core hits 100%.

Is anyone else seeing this?

In case anyone is wondering it is not my system. I am running a mid 2011 iMac, 3.4 GHz Intel Core i7 (4 core, 8 core with hyperthreading) with 8GB of RAM. There is no more powerful Mac other than a custom built Mac Pro (with enough horsepower to run a small country).

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Comments

Paul N

Patrick, your computer is far superior in every aspect to mine except RAM. The first thing that come to mind is the 32 bit nature of Logos instead of 64 bit. Doesn't this somewhat limit the ability of the program to take advantage of your computer's processing power and memory?

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/286569#Comment_286569

Patrick, your computer is far superior in every aspect to mine except RAM. The first thing that come to mind is the 32 bit nature of Logos instead of 64 bit. Doesn't this somewhat limit the ability of the program to take advantage of your computer's processing power and memory?

Hi Paul - yes I'm somewhat fortunate to currently be on the up in the machine refresh cycle, next year I'll be on the down [*-)]

Thing is, irrespective of 32 bit or 64 bit, my current machine has power to spare, but it seems that Logos even with all that resource is not performing well, and that even after inordinately eating CPU. I've got apps like Photoshop, Lightroom, Parallels that do a lot but they don't show these performance issues.

I've had Logos 4 for a while and I know it's resource hungry, but latest version (even with Use Internet disabled) seems even worse - interested if it is Logos system overall, or the specific layout I was using (what is not complicated) and if others are seeing performance issues with 4.3 SR-3 and if so is/will it be addressed.

Ward Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/286598#Comment_286598

I realize that this is the Mac forum, but I'm having related issues on the PC side of Logos; for whatever reason, Logos on my i5 is running slower and slower. My i7 desktop is more responsive, but still slugs along sometimes. I have a lot of resources and I highlight extensively--however, on my i5 laptop I can highlight across most of a chapter now before the highlighting begins to appear.

I suspect the Mac version has more speed issues, but the PC version could certainly use code optimization too.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/286628#Comment_286628

I realize that this is the Mac forum, but I'm having related issues on the PC side of Logos; for whatever reason, Logos on my i5 is running slower and slower. My i7 desktop is more responsive, but still slugs along sometimes. I have a lot of resources and I highlight extensively--however, on my i5 laptop I can highlight across most of a chapter now before the highlighting begins to appear.

This sounds like a difference in the video cards. A lot of the UI performance issues in L4Win are related to the speed and memory of the video card rather than the CPU.

I now return thread control back to the Mac users.

Mr. Simple

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/286630#Comment_286630

GPU does not solve this problem - I have a very high end GPU subsystem and measured utilization is nil - Yet Logos is bottlenecked and slow in many scenarios

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/286633#Comment_286633

As far as I am aware L4M does not/cannot take advantage of the GPU or other OS X extra performance facilities. Anyway the point is the seeming excessive CPU use (more than other apps) without seeing any benefit. Again this is on a high-end Sandy Bridge i7 processor based Mac.

Mr. Simple

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/286633#Comment_286633

I wanted to add I have everything installed on latest generation SSD drive technology, 16 gig of RAM and 4 core/8 Thread Mac Pro Server.

The application software is a bottleneck in so many ways relative to the power of the hardware.

The network I have is a full fiber optic network with 50 megabits per second.

It's safe to safe it is not the CPU, GPU, Network, RAM or Disk Subsystem.

Until Logos changes the fundamental development environment it's not going to change such that it will continue to scale with advances in hardware and operating systems on the Mac environment at least.

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/286657#Comment_286657

The application software is a bottleneck [..] relative to the power of the hardware.

I think we'd all agree that Logos 4 is, currently, performance challenged and I'm aware of that. My point still is that there appears to be (at least on my system with the simple things I'm doing in Logos) an extra performance issue (that I have not seen before) with 4.3 SR-3.

Can anyone confirm/comment?

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/286734#Comment_286734

Hi Patrick,

While I in no way want to minimize your issues, I do not agree with your conclusion. I did find a slight loss if in performance between 4.2 and 4.3, however L4 Mac is about equal to the performance I get from L4 Win. The exceptions are in notes (which I do not use much) and syntax searching. I do get the spinning wheel when I switch layouts, but that is about it. As to my Mac, it is a late 2008 MBP with 4 gigs of RAM, significantly less in power than yours.

Therefore, since these issues are not universal, there has to be differences in how we use the program, general expectations or other programs running that may be in conflict with L4 Mac, etc. My standard for performance is L4 Win. I do believe that L4 Mac turned off logging in 4.2 and I have never enabled it. Is logging enable on your system?

I do hope that you and the others experiencing these issues find solutions.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/286763#Comment_286763

John: I have some of the same issues as listed above and, like you, would logically think that these issues "have to be" local to the particular machines since the issues are not universal.

Logical troubleshooting thinking would usually agree.

However: This is not always true in software applications.

The reason is simply because software is usually written to respond to a "lot of different scenarios " concerning the types of hardware and other code it will run into and have to live in and with.

if you simply look at the Mac, there are many different processors , different "types/brands" of ram, modifications to base code between operating systems ( leopard, snow leopard, lion ) , changes at the base code in unix, different video cards, ports, network adapters, printer drivers, so forth and so on.

Differences between versions of Word, Pages and other software.

Logos programmers as any other programmers, have a lot to deal with in coding for any platform, many, many variables.

Thus, you may have a program that runs great with your current settings and, get a newer computer and have it run poorly.

Yet, have a friend with what "seems like" the exact same unit, and his runs well.

The difference between the machines can be anything from drives, slightly different ram, many, many things.

Thus those writing code must "tweak" thew code to it runs well across many different situations.

Logos is still (imho) struggling with these issues.

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/286822#Comment_286822

Fr. Charles,

Thanks for the edification to my post. I do hope you are able to get your issues resolved.

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/286829#Comment_286829

Perhaps the difference may be that I am running Lion. Which BTW was clean install on brand new machine 3.4 GHz Core i7 4 core. It's not the machine — trust me.

And it's not any other software I am running, which BTW are all running 64 bit. None of them exhibit generally, the performance lag shown in L4M, and specifically what I am seeing in 4.3 (again perhaps it's L4M having difficulty with Lion as I did not run 4.2 much on this new machine).

When I load up the layout in question it's slow, slow, slow. Once it loads and I click on a tab for another Bible translation 30 seconds of beach ball and high CPU usage.

So I'm sorry, I'm not going to accept it's the computer. Guess I'll have to wait more until a version of L4M comes out that behaves better on OS X Lion.

Wonder when we'll be seeing a 64 bit version of L4M.

p.s. logging is not enabled.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287210#Comment_287210

Patrick: They had me trash logos ( just went to applications and drug the logos icon to trash, then emptied the trash) and download and install the program, no re-index or any of that.

It helped mine quite a bit, still slower than it should be, but usable .

I too have Lion.

Will post link to current program file download.

Seems something in the last update causes issues with some Lion installs ( near as I can figure ), this did help my install a lot.

Here's the link to the program engine.

http://www.logos.com/logos4mac

Hope this helps.

Rusty+

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287221#Comment_287221

btw, is that an addition to activity monitor you are using to get info,m if so, could you give me the name of it please.

Thanks,

Rusty+

Mike S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287226#Comment_287226

btw, is that an addition to activity monitor you are using to get info,m if so, could you give me the name of it please.

That's iStat Menus

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287285#Comment_287285

btw, is that an addition to activity monitor you are using to get info,m if so, could you give me the name of it please.

That's iStat Menus

Fall Mac Update Bundle (ends tomorrow) includes iStat Menus (plus Mellel and Bookends) => https://www.mupromo.com/?ref=4438

Keep Smiling [:)]

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287301#Comment_287301

btw, is that an addition to activity monitor you are using to get info,m if so, could you give me the name of it please.

That's iStat Menus

Fall Mac Update Bundle (ends tomorrow) includes iStat Menus (plus Mellel and Bookends) => https://www.mupromo.com/?ref=4438

Oh well, at least something good has come out of this thread, enjoy the software.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287354#Comment_287354

Patrick: Sorry if that was no help. I had a very, very small Logos Library for a very long time simply because it seemed ( and was ) so unstable.

I haves watched and waited a long time and finally upgraded simply because I need resources Logos has. I still believe the software has major issues, many of which are just as you posted. I too have issues with its speed and functionality, I still have crashes, it still gets "stuck" but, for the most part is usable.

I hope Logos can get your copy up and running better, and agree, Highly unlikely its your Mac causing the issues-smile.

Blessings,

Rusty+

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287362#Comment_287362

Just for the exercise I deleted my installed copy of Logos 4, downloaded latest and (re)installed.

Bah, waste of time, still waiting for the beach ball.

After loading a layout it took 30 seconds plus after clicking from one Bible version tab to another before I got access to the application again. And while I was waiting this below is what I see... one core maxed out (therefore machine becomes processor bound and unresponsive) and shooting up the processor temperature, while the rest of the cores are twiddling their thumbs doing nothing. I might as well be running this application on an Apple II.

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287421#Comment_287421

Patrick,

Could you post a screenshot of your layout?

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287421#Comment_287421

wow

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287432#Comment_287432

Could you post a screenshot of your layout?

Sure, click on screenshot to see full size.

Note also these two screenshots of CPU + temp. In the first the layout was loading, multiple cores were being used (the hyper threading cores not being shown used could be because of iStat Menu, not sure), in the second the layout was visible but not usable (beach ball) and note core 5 alone is at 100% followed by core 7 alone at 100%. Because a core goes to 100% two things — machine is stuck waiting on (one core of) CPU + temp goes up.

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287436#Comment_287436

wow

Rusty+ 'wow' you're surprised, or 'wow' something else? [;)]

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287447#Comment_287447

For example of another app here is Photoshop CS5 rendering a photo - notice all cores including hyper-threading being used.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287461#Comment_287461

It was "wow" that logos was hammering one core that hard and holding it, the fact it was doing it on One Core.

Note- Your screen shots are not coming through now.

Note: I notice that "exegetical Guide" does hit processors harder than "Passage guide" and that "Scrolling" hits pretty hard.

Indeed I also see Cores not being used equally, but not nearly as unbalanced as yours.

GPU does not seem to be used much at all.

I think its probably time to Logos, I don't have nearly as much computer as you do, and have much better balance on cores, less load, and less memory usage.

Hope This has been of some small help.

Rusty+

Mr. Simple

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287461#Comment_287461

Patrick - Your confusing every one with facts. That's not fair. I prefer anecdotal evidence and wishy washy statements such as your mileage may vary , it must be some local computer issue, etc.

The bottom line again is until Logos decides their business model warrants a significant departure from their development model the gaps are going to increase between hardware and/or Operating system capabilities and the applications ability to scale given the frameworks they use to code.

It would be much better for them to state unambiguously to the user community that this is like wack-a-mole until denial is broken through and a strategic decision is made based on market demands.

I know first hand how this works in corporate herd think - I remember deploying a strategic application for a global fortune 500 enterprise, warning them it will not scale. The blood ran out of decision makers face when the day of reckoning came.

I had already had an alternate architecture in place in the labs, for which the decision makers were eternally grateful. It was a combination of $$, Face saving, Supplier politics and plain pride.

Not saying it's the case here. But it is obvious that everyone was willing to dance around the elephant in the room until it was almost too late.

Similarly I worked on an aircraft design for NASA many decades ago. My boss who was a PH.D in Engineering earned at Standford university taught me a lesson I kept. We knew that the airframe was going to twist out of the jigs used for testing due to torque. No one wanted to deal with it. He said don't fight this with memos, stand back because Physics are about to speak loud and clear. We just watched and observed it happening. At that point we just kept our mouths shut, the results took care of the rest. I was in charge of determining how much damage each component sustained in each test flight. Needless to say after that incident, there was no pushback when we spoke up.

Funny how that works.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287480#Comment_287480

Well done Larry, well done.

This is much of what I was saying in an earlier post- scaling is the evidence here that there are code issues.

The FACT that Logos runs so differently across Macs, even Macs that are "the same" but from different "runs" tells us a great deal.

The Problem is not our computers "per say " ( though individual units can have issues ) but that we have Code issues that conflict with varying hardware/operating system enviroments as well as Code conflicts within the program itself.

Not our fault.

The Business model driving this is just something Mac Owners are not accustomed too.

imho

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287442#Comment_287442

Patrick,

A few things I noticed:

1. You have the entire book of Genesis as the entry into your bible and are generating a text comparison on the entire book as a result. This is CPU intensive.

2. It does not appear that the PG and EG are also attempting to populate based upon the entire book, but if so, you are asking the program to do a lot.

3. You are using the default PG. In my opinion there are many sections that take time to populate, but have no interest to me. You can create your version of the PG and save it as "My Passage Guide" and Logos will default to is instead. Same with the EG. I also keep all the sections closed upon opening and closing the program and only populate what I need, when I need it. This speeds things up and avoids delays if I accidentally enter an entire book rather than a pericope.

The main issue I see with you layout is comparing the entire book of Genesis in the text comparison report. It put me into the spinning wheel mode quickly. Either change the report to follow instead of linking to the bible or better yet, be more selective in your pericope.

See if this does not fix your issue.

Mr. Simple

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287598#Comment_287598

John,

Questions/Thoughts on your suggestions:

1. The Entire book of Genesis consists of 50 Chapters, 1,533 verses and 38,262 words in KJV. The entire Bible is 807,361 words.

Not a large data set considering the RAM, CPU available. Any database worth it's salt should not sweat it at all

2. Comment #2 is pure speculation

3. Why ask an end user to worry about such details in the specifics? The whole point in purchasing an expensive application is to use the computational power of the platform

Personally I have 16 gig of RAM, 8 threads each at 2.8 gigahertz , its all stored on an SSD disk capable of over 100,000 I/O operations a second and 290 megabytes second of sustained read/write I/O.

The entire library I have can be contained in SSD and the majority in RAM if required.

If that is not enough to instantaneously query an 38,000 ( 38K) word data set (or max 800,000 words for the entire bible) I don't know what is.

I full well realize there is a lot more to it than I am stating. My main point is that I could force and hold almost all the database in RAM if it came to that through a variety of means, yet Logos is slow despite the many toolsets and API's that can be employed. I'm certain if you opened a contest to programmers with a cash reward for the fastest speed up overall (if that could be clearly defined) or crowd sourced ( See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing ) the problem you'd be amazed at what could be done.

I have crafted programs and performance tuned since the 1970's and I can say I teased out the maximum performance on much less hardware, we are talking since the days you could physically see the individual core bits in main memory. It's not armchair opinions only. I've architected large scale digital product definition, simulation and manufacturing tools and strategies first in industry and adopted by organizations such as British Aerospace, Joint Strike Fighter development etc. and initially the same reaction is it can't be done, you don't understand etc. The benchmarks and results spoke for themselves. The point being it can be done and has been done with much less hardware than we are discussing available to consumers today in the commodity market.

It's simply preposterous that the system I have which can solve large scale computational problems handling such work as bioinformatics and materials science using differential equation solvers, curve fitting copulas, mixtures, order statistics, censoring, truncation and transforms with ease cannot query the Book of Genesis without special hand holding from the end user

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287671#Comment_287671

Just to inject a bit of humour so we don't take each other too seriously and remember to smile [:)]

You don't wanna be on the receiving end of that withering look [;)]

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287671#Comment_287671

My Summary

Interesting discussion — I confess I fall somewhere between Larry & John.

On the technology points Larry correctly highlights a number of relevant issues. A personal frustration I have is that one may have thought - hey Logos 4 is a big application, it's not performing that fast now but eventually hardware would progress to a point where the system had more 'breathing space' and performance would improve (significantly?). However the hardware has arrived (ergo Larry's mega machine, my mid 2011 i7 iMac) yet we discover that the application cannot reach up to use that power. It's disappointing.

Anyway.... I wanted to give a summary of what I found & some comments. Firstly though wanted to thank John for his catch on point 1 the text comparison window. Indeed it was displaying all of Genesis for all my top Bibles. I closed the text comparison window (I don't usually use it), updated the layout, restarted Logos 4, reloaded the layout and the system did not fall over.

However... and here are my summary points:

I did not make the Bible's verse selector, and thereby the text comparison window, to be "Genesis", Logos 4 did it by itself during the time I was using it before I saved the layout (I think I changed Bible book at one stage by following a link and then used navigator to go back to Genesis, system did 'Genesis' not 'Genesis 1:1' or whatever verse I had been on). As you mentioned John the PG & EG were not all of Genesis, but "Gen 1:1". I discovered long ago that if one types in any sort passage length in the 'Go' entry field on the home page the PG & EG kill the system. I now always launch into the standard layout by restricting 'Go' to one verse only. Hence "Gen 1:1". So it's a programming issue that L4M by itself changed the selector to Genesis. Given the significant impact this should be looked at.
John on your point about the Passage Guide, I didn't think it would make much difference but I did the exercise. The two screenshots below show the difference. The first is after removing the Text Comparison window, updating Layout, restarting Logos. The second was changing Passage Guide to custom one with only three sections. Not much difference.
I believe this thread has brought to light an issue regarding the Text Comparison window. If it causes such an issue why don't the developers proactively program the system to protect against this. Why query a whole Bible book for five versions when the system can only display a fraction of the text? Why not display the first part and then pull more data in as the user pages down in the window?
Why display a whole book (imagine Isaiah!) for the PG & EG if the user (easily &) mistakenly types "Isaiah" instead of "Isaiah 1:1" in the Go box. Why not display a warning or even automatically change the entry to "Isaiah 1:1" and/or just display the first verse with < & > buttons to navigate between verses?
Why doesn't L4M use CPU power more intelligently? Sure, as we see below it used all four cores of my i7 CPU, but as we saw in previous postings it didn't when it was struggling pulling in data for all of Genesis and only one core was being used, and that one core reached 100% use = beach ball. I consider this to be a necessary & critical performance coding fix.
Why doesn't L4M support Hyper-Threading? Does Logos 4 Windows do it, and/or are Mac users being short changed? Can anyone who has L4 Windows test this? Until it does it is not making full use of available performance technology.
Why isn't L4M 64 bit and when will it be?
I could go on but I will close with this question (one that Logos hates me asking, but sorry guys has to be asked). How much of these performance limitations are due to the (current) Mono framework and when can we expect to see an improvement. Is it being looked at as a priority?

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287687#Comment_287687

Patrick,

I am glad that my suggestion made the program more functional for you. As to your remaining suggestions, Logos will have to reply. I am for any improvements to make the program run better and faster for their customers.

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287671#Comment_287671

Larry, my suggestions to Patrick were practical suggestions that did help him with his immediate issues. I have no reply to your post as they should be directed to Logos and not me.. I don't have a blue cross or star under my name.[:D] (I do appreciate those that do!)

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287706#Comment_287706

Quick question : So if I want to study Genesis, I can't just open the book of same and start my studies, I have to limit my input to certain pericopes?

This does not seem good to me, often I want to open the Book, scroll back and forth between areas.

It sounds like we are saying this is too much load.

Can anyone clarify for me here?

Thanks.

Rusty+

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287717#Comment_287717

Rusty,

The entire bible is always available in Logos. You are just telling the software what pericope to run the PG, EG and text comparison. It never limits you to just one book, it just tells the software where to open the bible. So you type Gen 1:1-5 and the reports are generated on that pericope, but you have the entire bible in the biblical text pane. As you move to other verses in Genesis, the reports will generate if they are linked.

Rusty, some software is search based, where you enter a search to start your study. Logos is report based, where the bible text is always the entire bible and you tell the software what pericope you want to run the reports on. Do you really want to run an exegetical report on the entire book of Genesis? Most people only want to see the word by word analysis on the pericope or verse that software is focused on. So in conclusion, it is really a matter of how the software is designed.

Does this answer your question?

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287731#Comment_287731

I think so, will have to explore.

I guess my question is: If I just open Genesis, as a book, does this indeed drive the PG & EG nuts, thus over taxing Logos and , as a result, processor and ram functions?

I can understand the Passage guide having some issues because of the way it functions ( but this could indeed be improved) , but the EG should not try to pull on everything unless it is just pulling up a greek or hebrew parallel text with imbedded data.

I'm not saying this well, not a programmer.

I am still working with "trial time" I guess and still learning this software. I have had small Logo program while waiting for Logos/Mac to become stable. Just upgraded to Scholar's Silver, added Catholic Library and a few other add-ons. I have another program that is very fast, and do most of my Greek/Hebrew work there.

Logos has the Library resources I need that other programs just don't have and, I am out of office/Bookshelf space. Need to continue building digital library which Logos has largest offerings ( especially in catholic/orthodox/anglican/ancient areas ), thus, Logos should be a win-win deal for me.

However, like some others posting here and elsewhere, the performance is a real issue, however, its not "just" the performance.

I am looking at the very real possibility of my Mac not living long under these kind of sustained processor loads and the resulting heat which makes fans work really hard.

I have no issue at all with processors peaking at 100% and above for short periods of time, this is not a problem, at all.

The problem is with the processors staying loaded to those levels, with memory leaks, memory loads etc.

Thus, really concerned if I have made a good decision, should have waited longer, should have looked harder for other solutions.

That said, to be fair, the program is "usable" and I seem to be having less issues than some here, however, I am concerned and surely cannot consider more resources for this library as I don't want to put greater load on the logos engines and thus my Mac, to process those resources in reports.

Hopefully I am making sense, i am not trying to be a "thorn in the side", just saying I am really concerned.

Thanks for everyones posts, this was not my thread, but found it helpful just the same.

Blessings,

Rusty+

Mr. Simple

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287745#Comment_287745

Sorry I posted comments that should have been directed to Logos Staff. Just adding my limited perspective. Glad John's comments were actually helpful to Patrick unlike my ramblings.

Logos is a powerful tool to say the least. I just believe with focus on this area it could be much better in terms of general stability, performance and scaling based on my own individual experience

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287753#Comment_287753

Larry,

I support any improvements that will better user experience with L4 Mac. You made some good suggestions for Logos to consider.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287754#Comment_287754

Larry: I agree with John and, Do not think your post was inappropriate, in fact, it was helpful.

Personally, I thank you for the investment of thought, the time to post, and also for providing areas to look for solutions. It always good when one can provide possible solutions while reporting issues.

I say: Thanks.

Rusty+

Mr. Simple

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287686#Comment_287686

[:)]

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/287745#Comment_287745

I guess my question is: If I just open Genesis, as a book, does this indeed drive the PG & EG nuts, thus over taxing Logos and , as a result, processor and ram functions?

Depends. One option for Passage Guide (PG) and Exegetical Guide (EG) is using smallish set of verses so can populate each section, then click triangle to collapse sections. If all sections collapsed, choosing whole Bible book is very fast: can choose which section(s) to view: time to populate section depends on passage length and related content. Both PG and EG can produce gobs of output that cannot fit on a screen for reading.

Another option is opening Genesis in a Bible resource without using default layout from Home Page (personally have shortcuts for several Bibles so can quickly open one). As use Logos 4 more, am learning to keep less open, knowing how to quickly open more items as desired. Logos feels quicker when screen updates are usually visible for reading.

By the way, EG has Word by Word section that can take a long time to populate (lots to lookup for every word). Personally customized EG to remove Word by Word section; created a custom guide that only has Word by Word section (tend to use for 1 or 2 verses).

Thankful for Logos visual filters, which can be used to highlight words based on grammatical usage. Can visually look at a Bible passage for verb tense usage patterns (e.g. Phil 4:4-8 has many imperatives).

Keep Smiling [:)]

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288040#Comment_288040

Thanks for the info.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288342#Comment_288342

Buttons have now quit working-sigh.

In my bible tab, the one with three circles has stopped giving me a drop down as well as the display tab, again, no drop down. It try's, but will not open long enough to see anything or do anything.

Need help, can't get any work done, getting really frustrated.

Thanks,

Rusty+

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288368#Comment_288368

Is your Mac working hard (Logos 4 Mac making it?) did you happen to install the iStat Menu application http://bjango.com/mac/istatmenus/ ? Can you see if your machine is overloaded?

Did you read the tip in this post? http://community.logos.com/forums/t/38491.aspx

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288368#Comment_288368

Buttons have now quit working-sigh.

In my bible tab, the one with three circles has stopped giving me a drop down as well as the display tab, again, no drop down. It try's, but will not open long enough to see anything or do anything.

Need help, can't get any work done, getting really frustrated.

Wonder about restarting Mac ?

Keep Smiling [:)]

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288381#Comment_288381

Yea, tried that. Seem to have it narrowed down: All drop downs work on my macbook screen, but when I move logos desktop or panel to outboard monitor, drop downs will not hold in open position ( they are like clicking a momentary switch).

After a while of fooling with it, I found if i click one 15 times or so really fast, it will finally open.

This is very frustrating.

I seem to be spending more time trying to make the program work than actually getting any work done with the program-smile-if that makes any sense.

Really not trying to be a pest, want to get my work done and, need to be able to make a rational decision on keeping this within the proper time frame.

Thanks so much,

Rusty+

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288372#Comment_288372

Hi Patrick: Yes, got I-stat, and yes, working pretty hard on some things, some better on other things.

It actually settles down to a semi-resonable load for the most part.

Yes, looked at our other thread, not quite sure how to turn off a couple things.

Heck, still having trouble trying to figure out how to create a "workspace" that is functional for me with NA27 and NASB side be side and anything else outside of that-smile.

I can see some of the potential of the program, but general thought so far is that workflows are too complicated, not natural and the program is being asked to do too many things "auto" that are not being asked for.

Going to go back to the other thread and see about turning more off.

Thanks for the help.

Rusty+

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288433#Comment_288433

Hi Rusty,

Below are a few screenshots of my NT layout for consideration. On the left I have the Logos Reports: PG, EG, Cited by and Information window, in the center is the NASB and below in a separate pane, but linked, the NA27. In the same pane in separate tabs I have another Greek text and two text comparison windows, one for English texts and the other for Greek Texts. On the right I have the BDAG. If I select another resource from the PG such as commentaries, they will open here.

I never use the Home Page and actually suggest you go to the homepage, click on customize on the bottom left and deselect "show homepage at startup". Logos will now open to your last layout.

The key to open the Bible text to a verse or pericope to start your study, then move verse by verse or pericope by pericope.

There are some great videos by Mark Barnes you should spend the time to go through before deciding if you want to keep the software. They can be found here:

http://vimeo.com/logostutorials/videos/sort:date

One of my older videos on workflow can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdIwschfi-Q

It is using L4 Win, since L4 Mac was not available at the time I made it. I have changed a few things, but you can still glean some ideas perhaps from it.

Here are the screenshots:

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288459#Comment_288459

Thank you John: Had looked at some of the other videos and, just now watched a couple of yours.

Usually I have a Greek or Hebrew Text open "side by side" with my English text and have them set where if I hove over a word in one, it highlights the same word in the other. Seems i can do that now through the EG, so that may take care of that for me.

Liked quite a bit about how you set up your Pg and Eg but was not quite fast enough to see how you did some of those things, so, will have to revisit and experiment a bit.

Your system ( even under emulation ) seems to run a good bit quicker and smother than mine.

I think removing somethings from PG and Eg will probably help.

When you mentioned turning "off " parallel guides, was that a global thing or just removing the default box that usually lays to bottom right of screen?

I ask because I see you using that "function" in several areas in the video but as "called for" not as a default in the layout.

Please forgive all the questions, know you are busy as well, but if you could clarify next week, that would be helpful, just don't want to take away from any prep you are doing.

Thanks so much,

Rusty+

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288430#Comment_288430

After a while of fooling with it, I found if i click one 15 times or so really fast, it will finally open.

This is very frustrating.

Wonder about click once then wait ? (perhaps many seconds before menu appears, which can be irritating for human interaction)

Understand frustration, one option is voting for Logos User Voice suggestion => Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness currently ranked # 85 with 18 votes.

Upgrading iMac from 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo to 2.93 GHz Quad Core i7 noticeably improved Logos 4 Mac menu responsiveness, but several items still have a delay. Wiki Logos 4 Mac => What to Expect includes: "Three Logos 4 Mac menus do not follow historic Mac conventions: File, Guides, and Layouts - recommend quick click to display menu (may take seconds to display), then can right OR left click on menu items."

I seem to be spending more time trying to make the program work than actually getting any work done with the program-smile-if that makes any sense.

Does make sense since Logos 4 has a learning curve for effective use (similar to learning how to use a public library effectively: how books are organized, where to look for what, etc). Logos 4 has some opportunities for awful performance responses (e.g. Text Comparison for book of Genesis or Exegetical Guide Word by Word section for lots of verses). Wiki has => Getting Started with Logos with many Tips and links (several Tips include lessons learned from waiting).

Personally have learned a lot from a myriad of forum discussions; know have lots to learn. Thankful for amazing study capabilities in Logos 4.

Heck, still having trouble trying to figure out how to create a "workspace" that is functional for me with NA27 and NASB side be side and anything else outside of that-smile.

When studying Greek, prefer to not have an English Bible open, Logos 4 has some ways to display English when desired.

Apologies for posting Logos 4 Windows screen shots in Logos 4 Mac forum; Thankful Logos 4 Mac and Logos 4 PC share code base – most items function identically on both platforms, including F7 text comparison pop-up, with some notable Feature Parity improvements needed for Mac. Logos User Voice voting shows Logos 4 Mac Enhancements more desired than Improve Logos 4 Mac Feature Parity with PC since Logos 4.3 SR-3 can be effectively used on Mac; Thankful for many improvements over past couple years.

While studying Ephesians, have a few items open in Logos 4.3 SR-3 and Personal Book docx file (not shown). Have 2 Greek New Testaments open: Nestle-Aland 27th Edition with McReynolds English Interlinear (NA27INT) and Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament (LDGNT)

My Personal Book has many pop-up items (clickable Logos links), including [[Eph 1:14 >> logosres:ldgnt;ref=BibleNA27.Eph1.14]] that shows LDGNT (using NA27 bible verse mapping) plus highest prioritized Bible (one way to compare English and Greek).

LDGNT has option to display English Literal Gloss inline while NA27INT can display English Literal Translation inline. Also can highlight verses, then press F7 to compare top 5 prioritized Bibles (couple ways to compare Greek and English):

Wiki Extended Tips for Visual Filters => Examples of visual filters has screen capture from 27" iMac showing 5 Logos Greek Morphology visual filters (plus 5 more visual filters, including Discourse Analysis) that shows 7 imperative mood verbs in Philippians 4:4-9

NA27 have 3 Logos Greek Morphology visual filters turned on: verb moods, verb tenses, and singular vis plural while LDGNT has 6 visual filters on: 5 Logos Greek Morphology plus Discourse Analysis.

Thankful for Personal Book tool in Logos 4.3; have customized LDGNT Glossary so pop-up has question(s) to consider:

In Ephesians 1:3, εὐλογητός is tagged with Empahsis in LDGNT.

When studying Greek, prefer to show manuscript and Louw-Nida numbers since can hover mouse on Louw-Nida # for contextual range of word meaning:

Right Click provides quick access to many Logos 4 Library items:

My Top 5 prioritized "Bibles" includes my preferred Bible Commentary as 3rd entry. By the way, "The NET Bible" is my # 2 Bible because of many translation footnotes, including number 84 in John 19:28 logosres:gs-netbible;ref=Bible.Jn19.28;off=152 Thankful for Logos forum discussion about "The NET Bible" for iPad use (tap footnote # for pop-up).

Another right click option is lemma, then click Bible Word Study (BWS). Personally customized guide so prefer My Bible Word Study with more translation sections:

BWS can show English translations for a Greek word (plus Biblical usage). Also can click verse reference to open Bible to verse.

Keep Smiling [:)]