Windows 8 & Logos- Logo's Team thoughts?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288013#Comment_288013

Guess I should proof read my posts. Ignore the second "how Logos". Also, I don't know why but I have a tendency any more to use the ellipses, and don't know why....

MJ. Smith

You know that there is an edit option under the more button at the upper right of your post? Within a time limit, it is the anti-apology tool --> It allows you to fix your post (hide the evidence unless you've been quoted) before someone teases you for the error that they also are prone to.[;)]

P.S. fixing includes the heading.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288016#Comment_288016

MJ,

Thanks I thought there was some place to do so, but didn't check under the little drop down. I will be better prepared to fix things in the future! and with one more post, I'm only 7000 posts behind you! Ah, and thanks for noticing my lack of an apostrophe. I'm blaming the dumbing down of Twitter and quick posts in my text messages for my less than stellar grammar.

Dave Hooton

I know that we'll still be able to run legacy applications, but am curious long term how Logos might envision the future...

Search for posts from CEO Bob Pritchett, some of which are captured here --> http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Speaks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288018#Comment_288018

I know I read the future of Logos posts at some point in time, and it was a good reminder to read again Dave. I guess I was just curious about some of the more specific UI changes in Metro... thinking how prayer list, devotions, reading lists, etc. might appear in tiles, etc. or whatever cool things might be possible with a touch based system. Certainly harder with a pure text based system, though not having an ipad or a multi-touch device, I don't know how easy something like selecting text or highlighting might be.

Blessings!

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288023#Comment_288023

Robert -

I preface my comments by giving a full disclaimer: I am a Mac Fanboy. I have not owned a PC for 10 years, nor do I intend to do so... [:)] I am, however, interested in tech things and was reading up on Metro. It is my understanding that Win 8 for Tablets (i.e. "Metro") will not run ANY windows applications at all. This info comes from the president of the Windows division, who said: "We've been very clear since the very first CES demos and forward that the ARM product won't run any x86 applications..." In other words, Metro will only run web based metro apps.

You can read an article about it HERE.

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288032#Comment_288032

The ipad doesnt run OSX apps, why should anyone expect Micro$ofts new smartpad os to run win32 apps, its unrealistic IMO.

There will be a seperate (64bit) PC operating system as well (as I read it), and the tablet PC's will run the PC Software.. as for legacy stuff, I imagine there will be emulators like "Virtual Box" or "Vmware" around for many years to come..

and smartpad users will run metro...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288032#Comment_288032

I watched the Build Presentation by Sinofsky and know that Arm based tablets won't run legacy Windows applications, but will be able to run apps, which I'm assuming Logos will probably make like they do for Android and iOS... I do know that the Metro interface though will be the UI for not just ARM, but also the PC with regular architecture, such as an Intel based laptop, computer or tablet... which would be able to run a legacy application like Logos4.

I'm just wondering what additional changes or things might be a part of these new changes ahead. For Windows users, they should be able to use Logos4 as it currently is on their computers when Windows 8 comes out, though they will also be able to run an app (assuming Logos will create one) that will run on ARM, their Windows Phone and even on their laptop and computers with Windows 8 running on it (and Windows 8 requires less system requirements than 7 from the sounds of it) if they don't want to load their Logos4. Kind of the best of both worlds... and they can pin the Logos 4 application to the tiles in the Metro UI if it is a computer, notebook or tablet that is essentially a computer and not a device, like ARM based devices. As for virtualization, it sounds like Windows 8 will have that as a part of it.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288120#Comment_288120

I wouldn't count on any Metro app until MSFT actually sells some tablets. Metro does look more promising than other attempts, but their track record leaves something to be desired. Meanwhile, some estimates have MSFT selling only a fraction of the tablets that Apple and Google will be selling.

Read more HERE.

Ward Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288032#Comment_288032

Robert -

I preface my comments by giving a full disclaimer: I am a Mac Fanboy. I have not owned a PC for 10 years, nor do I intend to do so... I am, however, interested in tech things and was reading up on Metro. It is my understanding that Win 8 for Tablets (i.e. "Metro") will not run ANY windows applications at all. This info comes from the president of the Windows division, who said: "We've been very clear since the very first CES demos and forward that the ARM product won't run any x86 applications..." In other words, Metro will only run web based metro apps.

You can read an article about it HERE.

With the march of time, it has become clearer that--for now--MS intends to allow Win7 Legacy apps to run on devices using Intel processors, and probably accessed through a "desktop" app on the Metro interface. ARM processors will only run the Metro--although I'd not be shocked if someone didn't find a way to create an "Intel" VM...it just might be really pokey on a low-voltage ARM. The intention being to keep ties to the past until code bases are Metro-ized.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288032#Comment_288032

Convertible netbooks and laptops running x86 CPUs will run Win 8 and offer support for both Metro and traditional Windows apps. I'm using Logos 4 on a Tablet PC and thoroughly enjoying the experience. Its nice to be handwriting on it and interacting with the program by pointing and dragging with the stylus. I'm getting better than 99% accuracy.

Brian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/342780#Comment_342780

Metro will run on Windows Phones, Windows Tablets and Windows Netbooks, Laptops & Desktops.

Only Intel / AMD processors will be able to run legacy desktop applications.

It therefore makes sense for companies to consider writing Metro apps so that one app can exist on any devise bearing an MS OS. As another author mentioned, this distinction did not stop Logos from creating an iOS and an OSX platform...

So are there any plans for a Metro App?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288043#Comment_288043

The ipad doesnt run OSX apps, why should anyone expect Micro$ofts new smartpad os to run win32 apps, its unrealistic IMO.

There will be a seperate (64bit) PC operating system as well (as I read it), and the tablet PC's will run the PC Software.. as for legacy stuff, I imagine there will be emulators like "Virtual Box" or "Vmware" around for many years to come..

and smartpad users will run metro...

Until MS made this clear I expected it. The primary desire of Windows users for a win tablet is the ability to run windows apps. We don't need another iPad wannabe. MS is making a big mistake in this point and it will make the win8 tablet a footnote in computer history.

I hate to throw a wet blanket on the cloud parade, but...

First, cloud has always been with us, from the days when I first started in the IT industry installing TN3270 term cards in Z100's running DR CP/M. Next it was called thin client/middleware/SQL. Then it was called virtual desktop. Today it's called software as a service (SaaS), platform as a service (PaaS really just virtual desktop all over again!), and infrastructure as a service (IaaS). These things are littered all over my slides today, so I know they're out there, and I know what impact they're having. I have to design networks around them every day.

Second, cloud hasn't ever, and won't ever, take over the world. I well remember the presentations in the middleware revolution extolling the benefits of remote data and local processing. Now we're being told we should go for local data and remote processing, or even remote data and remote processing. Remote data will always be great for simple stuff like watching a movie, reading a book, or listening to music. Remote data will always stink for things like building software, engineering bridges, and creating new content.

Third, no-one has sorted through the intellectual property problems with cloud. Every SaaS product in the world essentially steals your copyright, your ideas, and your privacy the moment you put your fingers on the keyboard. It's only going to take a couple of notable cases before someone starts to notice this --half of Google's game is to get millions of users to generate content for free that they can turn around and sell for real money.

Fourth, we've not yet started to consider how this idea of owning nothing intellectually will really impact our world. Already there's a revolution in the way we think --read The Shallows. People are already having problems reading a post of more than 100 words or listening to a lecture of more than about 12 minutes --much less actually writing complete sentences. Is this a process we, as Christians, should really be embracing as strongly as we appear to be?

So, my bottom line take --as someone who has coded applications and protocols, designed protocols, written books, designed new (patented) technologies, and generally "been around the block a couple of times" --cloud is here to stay for some things, and not for others. Entertainment will always be the province of cloud, serious work will always require local data/local processing. For people who just do email, some light presentation work, listen to music, and read, iPad devices will rule. And that market will be huge, no doubt --particularly as our society dumbs down ever more quickly into the quagmire of letting others (software developers and experts in the government) do our thinking for us.

IMHO, MS is going the wrong direction with Win8 --no-one wants to type books on an application designed for portable devices with small screens and only touch displays. No-one wants to engineer a bridge, or write a millions lines of code on one to develop a new application, either. And yes, I've told the product people at the highest levels at MS this very thing. The funny thing is, they know there's a problem here --it's obvious from the uneasiness in their faces when they talk about this stuff.

The question before Logos is, in my mind: Does Logos want to be a serious research tool pushing towards the high end of what local processing/local data can do? Or does Logos want to be a consumer device --the iTunes of the Bible world? I think that right now Logos is conflicted --they have two ideas, and they're often not certain which one is which.

On the one hand, I think they believe, right now, that they can do both on the same software. That they can tap into the huge new consumer market without losing any of the serious research market. On the other hand, my impression is that Logos thinks the serious side of computing is actually going to go away, to be replaced by the much larger consumer market. That people simply won't want, or need, local processing/local data any longer.

This is also driven by what their customers (us) are asking for --more synchronization, making the web app and the Android app and the iPhone app all look just like the desktop application. We're effectively saying, "don't focus on new ideas in ways to do search, just get my notes synchronized on all the apps, and get me more books and resources!"

Maybe it's time for us --we, as a user community, to sit and think about this some. What is it we're asking Logos to be? A cloud app with a daily reading schedule and text only synchronized notes? A Bible presentation package? A serious and specialized research tool that allows us to search a wide array of information quickly, and works towards helping us do the research needed for sermon preparation, book writing, and research papers?

Do we want "Bible 2.0," a replacement for the Bible we already carry in our hands, or a research tool that takes us to new depths of study, and new heights in our understanding? Are we asking for an overgrown app, or a real application level tool?

I would say the choice is up to us. I know what I'd choose --there are plenty of "Bible 2.0's" out there, but there are few really good research tools that help me write papers and books. I want a tool, not an "app." I would prefer Logos add more lower level tools to Vyrso as an app, and then find new ways to do research (even if it means more complexity) in a real desktop application.

Russ

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345077#Comment_345077

[Quote]: "We don't need another iPad wannabe."

I hear you ; but I worked in the market research industry for many years and I can tell you that its surprising how many people will purchase something for a different reason than yourself.

The bulk of computer users today have grown up with what we have and the proficient ones take for granted the overhead we all have with the current paradigm.

But there are many others out there; probably more than the current user base; that want a computer experience that is more like an white ware appliance; no need for manuals, looking for drivers, constant upgrades. They just want to drive a car with no idea what is under the bonnet.

If Windows evolves in that direction it's a good thing. Less effort devoted to maintaining the system and more resource can be applied by users to the tasks that they really want to get on with... like bible study! ;-)

I'm sure the more tech savvy user will still find a way to tinker, so all can be happy.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345266#Comment_345266

Do we want "Bible 2.0," a replacement for the Bible we already carry in our hands, or a research tool that takes us to new depths of study, and new heights in our understanding? Are we asking for an overgrown app, or a real application level tool?

Russ

I don't see why Logos can't be both. I use it as Bible 2.0 for my daily devotionals and I use it for our home bible study group to dig deeper. I like that its the same user interface for both. It means a lower learning curve for me.

Having said that, Logos has been positioned as the serious bible student's tool from the outset. Its been pretty successful too. AFAIK, its got the largest market share amongst all bible software applications.

It just needs further work in making serious word studies and other linguistic tools even easier to access and use. Maybe this is a limitation imposed by the state of linguistic studies but nonetheless there is a treasure trove of stuff that can bring insight to all readers.

I'd like to see Logos become so easy to use that my elderly Uncle (who attended seminary when he was young, 60 years ago) or my soon-to-be 8 year old son wouldn't think twice to pick up Logos and do some serious study.

Christians don't study enough and if we could remove the complexity to make the pearls easier to find then we would all be the richer.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345295#Comment_345295

I don't see why Logos can't be both. I use it as Bible 2.0 for my daily devotionals and I use it for our home bible study group to dig deeper. I like that its the same user interface for both. It means a lower learning curve for me.

Because the same user interface won't work on a portable device and a desktop where you can have four or five windows, tabs, and etc. --it's a simple real estate problem. This is precisely the problem MS is having with Windows 8; there's no clear way to make something as complex as Excel work on a small touch device.

Right now Logos has two products, one that's more "general reading," and "light research," and the other of which is a full blown research tool. The question becomes --at some point in the future, when Logos is resource constrained, which do we, the users, care more about?

I'd like to see Logos become so easy to use that my elderly Uncle (who attended seminary when he was young, 60 years ago) or my soon-to-be 8 year old son wouldn't think twice to pick up Logos and do some serious study.

I understand what you want to do, but, in reality, there are only three choices here:

1. The software can do simple stuff for users who have the skill set required to do those simple things, but has the ability to turn on more complex tools as the user learns.

2. The software can do complex stuff for users --far beyond their skill set-- but this means the coder is doing the "thinking" for the person, and spitting out the answers the coder thinks the user wants. Think about how Google works, or Facebook. They determine what they think you want to see, and cut out the results they don't think you want to see (or they don't want you to see). Is this what you think Logos should be doing?

3. The software is like a tool box from the start, with lots of tools all over the place, but in order to build a play set or a house, you have to know what every tool actually does, how to use it, what the right materials are, etc.

The folks who are pushing cloud say #2 is the answer --you tell the iPad you want to "design" a bridge, and it does all the "hard work" for you. Of course, the iPad isn't doing the "hard work," a coder someplace did the hard work, and programmed it into the software on some server the iPad is accessing. Hence you're always building the bridge the coder wants and likes, not the one you want to build, or the one you think is right.

In terms of sermons and study, sure you can write software that builds sermons for you, so even an 8 year old could go write a sermon. But what you're doing is letting the coders write all the sermons in the world.

#1 is the only realistic solution, but mobile device interfaces just flat don't have the real estate needed to support the user interface, and the network can't really (ever) support complex user interfaces and data transmission rates required to make #1 work (and here you'll just have to trust me --I'm working on a lot of networks where they're trying to go to virtual desktop --the first thing we have to do is quadruple the bandwidth in their network just to have a hope of making it work).

So we wind up with #2 by default. And while the world cries "that's wonderful!," I just cry for all those people who are turning their creativity and brain cells over to a programmer someplace. They might be nice coders, and they might even believe the same things I believe --it doesn't really matter.

If your 8 year old really wants to study the Scriptures, he's going to eventually have to learn how to use the tool box. Anything that tells him he doesn't have to learn real tools to really study the Scriptures --that he doesn't have to do the hard work of actually reading, comprehending, and assimilating the information because the computer is doing all that for him-- is just shunting his growth down the road someplace.

Again, read The Shallows. The author has a bad worldview so the solutions he presents won't work, but his analysis of the problem is absolutely dead on.

Russ

(‾◡◝)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345266#Comment_345266

I hate to throw a wet blanket on the cloud parade, but... [&etc.]

That was an excellent post(s). Thank you.

Wait ...

you're saying that my electronic Bible study results may only be showing "answers" that coders and commentators think are correct? And that I still need to do the hard work of verification and consistency checking so that I am not building a patchwork theological belief system full of holes and contradictions based upon whatever I subjectively accept as correct?

No thanks ... I just want to push a button and have the 'correct' answers pop up on my screen.

4274.Wall-e Axiom Humans.wmv

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345266#Comment_345266

Russ, I love hearing your perspective on this. I hope you won't mind my engaging this particular debate more deeply, because I think it's really interesting and useful. (If this is too long, the Logos-specific answers are at the bottom!)

So, my bottom line take --as someone who has coded applications and protocols, designed protocols, written books, designed new (patented) technologies, and generally "been around the block a couple of times" --cloud is here to stay for some things, and not for others.

I agree. There's rarely anything new, and even the new stuff is just old stuff re-hashed. There's not a lot different about today's Kindle that wasn't true of the Rocket eBook in 1998. Just minor differences: E-ink screens, long battery life, a free 3G cell phone network for downloading ebooks anywhere, and a device that weighs a tenth as much.

I head people saying in 1998 that nothing would ever substitute for the paper book. 'The feel, the easy interface, the smell, the weight in my hand, etc. etc. etc. These eBooks are a fad.' And in 1998 all those people were right.

I have heard the same stuff recently, around the Kindle's arrival. And this time, those people are wrong. And the funny thing is, some of the people who believe it most strongly (and wrongly) now are the people who just a decade ago were right about the exact same thing. And they didn't change; the world did.

I highly recommend Clay Shirky's book "Here Comes Everybody." In it, he says:

For us, no matter how deeply we immerse ourselves in new technology, it will always have a certain provisional quality. Those of us with considerable real-world experience are often at an advantage relative to young people, who are comparative novices in the way the world works. The mistakes novices make come from a lack of experience. They overestimate mere fads, seeing revolution everywhere, and they make this kind of mistake a thousand times before they learn better. But in times of revolution, the experienced among us make the opposite mistake. When a real once-in-a-lifetime change comes along, we are at risk of regarding it as a fad.

…young people are taking better advantage of social tools, extending their capabilities in ways that violate old models not because they know more useful things than we do but because they know fewer useless things than we do. I’m old enough to know a lot of things just from life experience. I know that newspapers are where you get your political news and how you look for a job. I know that music comes from stores. I know that if you want to have a conversation with someone, you call them on the phone. I know that complicated things like software and encyclopedias have to be created by professionals. In the last fifteen years I’ve had to unlearn every one of those things and a million others, because they have stopped being true. I’ve become like the grown-ups arguing in my local paper about calculators; just as it took them a long time to realize that calculators were never going away, those of us old enough to remember a time before social tools became widely available are constantly playing catch-up. Meanwhile my students, many of whom are fifteen years younger than I am, don’t have to unlearn those things, because they never had to learn them in the first place.

The advantage of youth, however, is relative, not absolute. Just as everyone eventually came to treat the calculator as a ubiquitous and invisible tool, we are all coming to take our social tools for granted as well. Our social tools are dramatically improving our ability to share, cooperate and act together. As everyone from working biologists to angry air passengers adopts those tools, it is leading to an epochal change.

Yes, cloud computing is just client-server come back around. It's exactly the same thing, with only minor differences. Like the fact that client-server technologies involved heavy, bulky client terminals physically tethered by a network cable or a land-line phone line. And today's "cloud" uses ubiquitous wireless signals that talk to client devices that weigh 6 ounces, keep a charge for 24 hours, and are presently carried in the pocket or purse of nearly everyone over the age of 13 in the developed world.

Other than that, client-server and cloud are exactly the same.

Russ, the funny thing is that my instincts are just like yours. I've been deeply immersed in the computer industry for almost 30 years, and I too have enough experience to know that a lot of what gets the kids excited these days is a bad idea we've already tried. Which is why it's so important to keep an open mind and to keep re-evaluating the bigger context for fundamental changes that make bad ideas good at last. Otherwise we risk being like the MS-DOS Bible software company executive who passed up a chance to acquire Logos v1.0 in 1991 because he had enough experience (from GEM, TopView, GeOS, etc.) to know that graphical windowing interfaces were a UI fad that wouldn't make it, making it unnecessary for him to invest in building or buying a Windows Bible software product.

I think there's one more piece to the puzzle than the communications, weight, and battery improvements I've already mentioned: it's "big data." A lot of problems that demand local computing and the rich user interface you can offer on a large, local display have changed in nature. Data is now a component of many "big problems", and big data often doesn't fit locally.

For years I was just as big a "local computing" fan as you are. My pet example was mapping: "Sure, it's cool that you can use Google maps to generate directions to any point," I'd say. "But when you have to do something difficult, like plan a 50 stop road trip across America in an RV [which Logos did], or schedule a fleet of delivery vehicles for optimal routes, you need desktop mapping software with rich interface where you can drag route lines, draw shapes, load up spreadsheets of data, etc."

And that was true -- all through the 90's and until recently. But now any serious mapping problem would want traffic data integrated into the solution. Any fleet manager would want dynamic re-routing based on real-time traffic incidents. Anyone researching a GIS problem wants integrated satellite imagery of any point on the earth at their fingertips. And while I could get an annually updated CD-ROM with all of America's roads, no CD-ROM could hold all the imagery of America at 3 meter resolution. No local computer could store it, or sort and aggregate the real-time reports of thousands of cars reporting back their GPS location over cellular networks for real-time traffic analysis on roads without sensors.

Building a bridge? Your local CAD solution may be enough, though I imagine you'll want all the drawings live-synced to the cloud so the engineers can collaborate. And I'll bet there'll be a "big data" component to bridge design sometime in the future.

So what does this mean for Logos?

Does Logos want to be a serious research tool pushing towards the high end of what local processing/local data can do?

Yes. We are still committed to high-end tools for people who do "real work" sitting at their desk with a "real computer" and a keyboard. I just got a 30" display -- I understand what you can and can't do on a phone or tablet screen. I completely agree that cloud solutions simplify things, make decisions on your behalf, and limit your options in exchange for convenience.

We have teams of scholars working on some incredible databases. We have programmers working on amazing tools. In the next version of Logos you will see a couple completely new search options which do spectacular things for the few and proud real users who will invest in understanding something very complicated and very powerful.

antonym(word1=Gloss,word2=Antonym), Gloss < Antonym, token(reference=Ref,lemma=Lemma,gloss=Gloss), token(reference=Ref,lemma=AntLemma,gloss=Antonym).

Does that meet your need for

...new ways to do research (even if it means more complexity) in a real desktop application.

? :-)

(But, I must confess, there's a catch... running that query (and the others this new system supports) in any reasonable time frame -- which we can do now -- requires a massive amount of data running on a server with massive amounts of memory. So while we could deliver it to your local machine, you'd need to dedicate 16 gigs of RAM to the query processing system. So our present plan is to build a rich, desktop UI for this -- no iPhone interface planned! -- but actually send the queries to a dedicated server in the cloud with massive memory and SSD hard drives. The result set will be sent back to you and delivered in a rich local UI you can manipulate on your own machine.)

Or does Logos want to be a consumer device --the iTunes of the Bible world?

Yes. We are going to serve consumers, too, with things like our mobile applications, web sites, and some exciting new things we'll be announcing in the next few weeks. And your analysis is correct: what we're doing is very much a "'Bible 2.0,' a replacement for the Bible we already carry in our hands." (You're so corect it's a bit spooky -- just wait a couple weeks and you'll see...)

I think they believe, right now, that they can do both on the same software.

Yes, we do believe that. It's not the exact same software, but rather a toolbox of components, data sources, and flexible constructs that we can deploy on multiple platforms and customize for different users and user interface paradigms. Maybe this is too ambitious, but we think it can be done, and that we're already well on the road: we use the same ebook files, the same display engine, and other shared pieces to deliver to both the desktop and the iPhone.

Yes, we do encounter difficulties. Our massive data type system and Bible versification data sets, for example, are literally too large to deliver to today's mobile devices. So our mobile apps have to use some shortcuts, make some assumptions, and occasionally be less precise when navigating obscure texts while offline. If you need to do "real work" on comparing ancient texts, you'll want the desktop Logos Bible Software.

On the other hand, my impression is that Logos thinks the serious side of computing is actually going to go away, to be replaced by the much larger consumer market. That people simply won't want, or need, local processing/local data any longer.

No, we don't believe it's going away. We do believe the market is changing, though. It used to be that 100% of people who used a computer for Bible study were desktop computer users (and, generally, technically minded people -- because you didn't own a computer in 1992 if you weren't into them). Soon, 90% of "computer use" will be phones, tablets, and appliances. Our old customer base will be just 10% of the market.

The good news is that in absolute numbers, the desktop / technical audience is bigger than ever. It's just being dwarfed as a percentage by all the new "computer users" who have entered the market. In 1992 these people just weren't using computers.

So will you see Logos giving a lot of attention to consumers and casual Bible students / readers? Yes. Because they outnumber you 10 (or 100?) to 1.

Is that to the detriment of our service to you, the loyal power user? It may feel that way, because you see so much of our attention going to the consumers. But we also have more resources to give to our core power user market, and there are many more people in this market than there used to be. We have 26 times as many developers as when we built Logos 1.0. We have 8 times as many developers as when we built Libronix. If we give only 10% of our people and resources to developing desktop tools for serious study, we'll be giving more people and resources to desktop software than we ever have in our 20 year history.

And of course, that's just for the sake of argument -- we have most of our resources on the desktop right now, and even our mobile / consumer-facing resources are simply leveraging the same underlying data and code, delivering it to a different user interface and form factor.

Are we asking for an overgrown app, or a real application level tool?

I think we can deliver both. While we'll have many "overgrown app" users in the future, we can continue to serve the "real application level" users, too. And even more importantly, while every "app" user may not be a "desktop power user", I believe that almost every "desktop power user" will also, at times, be an "app" user. The cloud is what lets us offer the right tool at the right time -- with your data right there -- to these dual-identity users.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345521#Comment_345521

Which is why it's so important to keep an open mind and to keep re-evaluating the bigger context for fundamental changes that make bad ideas good at last.

I agree that we must be careful not to miss new things that might change the game --but remember that the GUI hasn't really "taken over" the way people thought it would. I still type out my thoughts on a keyboard --even when I'm using a visual "min mapping" software package. :-) I remember Dvorak saying, a long time ago, that handwriting recognition would never take off because absolutely no-one can write faster than they can type. People called him a fool, but he was right. He grasped the fundamental problem of human to computer interaction.

But remember that every time the compute outstrips the human ability to interface with it, you end up with the computer doing the work the human should be doing.

And while I could get an annually updated CD-ROM with all of America's roads, no CD-ROM could hold all the imagery of America at 3 meter resolution. No local computer could store it, or sort and aggregate the real-time reports of thousands of cars reporting back their GPS location over cellular networks for real-time traffic analysis on roads without sensors.

The problem, from a network engineer's perspective, is all this counts on:

1. The network is free. Being a network engineer, I can tell you my time doesn't come cheap --and there's no way networks will actually run themselves, or rack mount themselves, or deploy themselves, or fix themselves. The industry has come a long way since 15 years ago, but we're also seeing the impact of a bandwidth bubble from the .com bubble days still. Bandwidth isn't free by a long shot.

To provide you two things that always run in my thinking (as a network engineer)...

First, networks are simply a sop to human impatience. An example I've lifted from Tannenbaum and used many times: there is no network in the world that can beat the cost and bandwidth of an overnight box full of 2.5in hard drives. About 120TB can be shipped in 24 hours for about $40.. You won't come close to that kind of pricing in the networking world. There is actually no way for a network to ever compete with physical shipping --so long as you don't care about the delay on the circuit.

Second, competition is driving prices down, but that won't last forever. Most of the Internet core folks are running at a loss right now, being supported by other lines of business. That's not going to last forever. What's likely to happen is that that loss is going to start being eaten in the cost of content --witness the recent falling out between NetFlix and their providers as an example.

But we are really backwards in our thinking right now, trying to defy reality. I just heard someone who is at the highest levels in a networking company claim that we will be able to replace all wired access with wireless within x number of years. Shot who, in who's back yard? Didn't even know they had a cow! This person simply doesn't understand physics or wave propagation at the physical level. There is no way you can make a wireless link faster than a wired one --ever. Everything you can do with fancy modulation on a wireless carrier can be done with less noise (and therefore at a higher data rate) on a wire. From my days on the pointy end of antenna design work --the only time you use waveguide is when you need power, not better modulation or signal/noise ratios.

2. You can do all the processing remotely, and the results will be small enough to work well across a smaller pipe. This is true in some cases, but not in all cases. Cloud will be limited to those cases where the results truly are smaller than the input data, the data set is well known, and the processing required on that data set is well understood. In other words, the cloud will reign supreme where data and data processing are a commodity. I don't think Logos wants information to become a commodity business.

In your GPS example --what is UPS' competitive advantage over Fedex if they're both using the same back end systems to handle all their logistics, sales, and fleet management? Absolutely nothing. Information gives me the edge --but if information processing is handled generically in "the cloud," I no longer have anything on which to compete. Which is why most companies are going to "private cloud," rather than buying SaaS from a public provider. SaaS only works when the information input is unique, rather than the processing of that information (like Salesforce.com).

3. Remote processing is always cheaper than local processing. Maybe, maybe not. :-) Having helped design and deploy a number of data centers (including ones that float, get dropped from the air, and all sorts of other crazy stuff!), I can tell you that the answer to that assertion is similar to the answer I give for a lot of other problems I deal with --"how many balloons fit in a bag?"

The "cutting line" between local and remote processing shifts back and forth based on the cost of compute verses the cost of bandwidth.

…young people are taking better advantage of social tools, extending their capabilities in ways that violate old models not because they know more useful things than we do but because they know fewer useless things than we do.

I don't buy that people are smarter, or know less or more useful stuff, now than they ever did in the past, or even that "social tools" make you a more "sociable person." What I do believe is that the way we process information internally is shaped by our information environment. For all it's worth, God gave us the written word. It's not as though God couldn't have given us a videotape to start with (at least not that I know of), and the technology to watch it. That he didn't should tell us that something about the way we process information is important.

So I don't think young folks "know less useless stuff," than we do. My experience, in fact, is just the opposite --I struggle finding young engineers who can grasp graph theory at an intuitive level, or why wireless won't ever beat wired, or can sit and think through the logical chain of reasoning required to get there. They say, "I can google it, and get the answer, before you can think it through, so I don't need to think." I just flat don't agree.

(By the way, this is why I think the next crop of great theological minds are going to come from the old folks in the engineering world --we've been taught to think, and think hard! And hence my drive to get an MDiv, then a PhD, then move into teaching in the next 10 years or so!)

So while we could deliver it to your local machine, you'd need to dedicate 16 gigs of RAM to the query processing system. So our present plan is to build a rich, desktop UI for this -- no iPhone interface planned! -- but actually send the queries to a dedicated server in the cloud with massive memory and SSD hard drives.

And if the network is down? Or if the network is slow? What's the cost of 16GB of RAM any longer? I have 16GB on the laptop I'm sitting here typing on, and 256GB of SSD drive. There is 6TB of storage attached to the local network (not counting the three desktop machines, the second NAS, and the four laptops). As remote process and memory capacities increase, so will local. MS uses laptop motherboards in their data centers, not some high powered compute platform --the average box in an MS data center has half (or less) the compute power I have sitting on my desk.

But the reality is the IT industry, and all industries, run in swings. Processing remote, processing local, back and forth. Don't count on a "permanent change" --we've been told "this time it's different" a lot of times before. I remember the "projected ATM bandwidth sold" charts from the 90's, too. Reality always votes last. :-)

Russ

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345290#Comment_345290

[Quote]: "We don't need another iPad wannabe."

I hear you ; but I worked in the market research industry for many years and I can tell you that its surprising how many people will purchase something for a different reason than yourself.

I'm not saying everyone wants what I want. I'm saying I doubt very many want what MS is making. There is the iPad, the Kindle Fire, and a bunch of Android Tablets. They are all making the appliance computer. MS charges for their OS so I doubt many hardware manufacturers will choose it over Android since it will cost more to make. They won't be able to compete with Apple who has found a way to produce a great product cheaper than anyone else can produce. Amazon has a similar product, but they admit they lose money on the device, but they can afford it because it plugs people into buying their content and they have a net gain. MS can't do that because they don't sell what Amazon sells.

What MS needed to produce to distinguish themselves was a tablet OS that could run the Logos Bible Software apps fo the world. They didn't do that so they will fail. The laptop/desktop version of Windows 8 makes no sense. I left MS because of decision like this. They are clueless and just don't get what modern consumers want and with windows 8 they are now going to alienate their business buyers, their bread and butter. Thanks to money on hand and inertia they will coast forward for a decade or more but every passing year they fail to adapt will be a year they come close to becoming and a computing afterthought like IBM now is.

My fear is that Apple is doing the same with Mt. Lion but at least they have iOS to keep them going for years to come.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345290#Comment_345290

[Quote]: "We don't need another iPad wannabe."

I hear you ; but I worked in the market research industry for many years and I can tell you that its surprising how many people will purchase something for a different reason than yourself.

My fear is that Apple is doing the same with Mt. Lion but at least they have iOS to keep them going for years to come.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345721#Comment_345721

What MS needed to produce to distinguish themselves was a tablet OS that could run the Logos Bible Software apps fo the world.

The person who can figure out how to make a tablet work like a PC --the same level of productivity as I can get on a 28in monitor with a pad and keyboard-- will make a mint. The entire idea of cloud seems, to me, to be that you can solve the problem by making the small screen just a window into the larger screen. This doesn't solve the small screen model, though --it just makes you scroll around a lot. The other solution being offered is the app model, the "small application." The problem here is that it just removes options from the user sphere to make the interface fit on the screen available. Another option is to make text really really small so a lot more fits on the screen --but this doesn't work for older folks. :-) Another option is to do as much visually, but it turns out that a picture really doesn't replace a thousand words, after all...

MS is attacking the problem directly --which I think it is a good thing overall-- but they don't have any more of a clue about how to solve it than anyone else. I don't know that there even is a solution, particularly in the space of how applications interact. The genius of quasi-open software models is that one piece of software doesn't have to do everything --but the small screen model goes contrary to this idea. I'm actually afraid this actually fragments out thinking and lives.

:-)

Russ

(‾◡◝)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345736#Comment_345736

Tablets, like netbooks, are fine if one understands and is willing to accept their limitations. Predictably, however, we are now seeing add-on keyboards, screens, speakers, etc. for the tablets - not to mention the moaning and groaning about the limitations of the apps and/or the throughput. If one is going to buy all of the accessories in order to try and fulfill unrealistic expectations for the tablet, why not just buy a laptop with some processing horsepower in it from the get-go? Much of the problem lies with consumers who fail to research or understand the weaknesses but want desperately to join in the latest marketing fad.

As for Windows 8, I fear it is destined to a permanent spot on http://thereifixedit.failblog.org/.

David Meyer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345758#Comment_345758

I have been for the last 12 years a Linux user (gentoo), Three months ago I switched back to windows. I purchased a Samsung Series 7 slate. Two months ago I switched from the Bible Soft program to Logos. Both moves have been excellent. I have played the game of trying to get all the apps I use to work well on all my devices (I have used Vmware since 2004). Android made a lot of sense to me with my Linux background but being able to do everything I wanted on all my devices was not coming easy. When I stopped and thought about the apps that were important to me mainly MS Office and my bible study resources, Windows made the most sense. For the first time every thing works. I switched to Logos because it looked like you guys were moving forward on all fronts. That said this Samsung Slate is awesome, It runs the Logos software very nicely. Logos however has some problems with the touchscreen not scrolling properly because of its design. I have been ok with the short comings thinking you guys will be addressing the Windows 8 stuff as it comes. I hope I have not made a mistake in thinking you would program with windows touchscreens in mind. The new windows phones are getting great reviews and I think there will be a number of people that will be looking to unify and simplify the blending of devices. The windows OS still has the largest market share for the home / work computer. I will close by saying... to say these things about windows goes against everything I have said for years but this windows Slate is awesome. It combined with Logos is becoming an invaluable tool to me and my ministry. Thanks ...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345947#Comment_345947

I have been for the last 12 years a Linux user (gentoo), Three months ago I switched back to windows. I purchased a Samsung Series 7 slate. Two months ago I switched from the Bible Soft program to Logos. Both moves have been excellent. I have played the game of trying to get all the apps I use to work well on all my devices (I have used Vmware since 2004). Android made a lot of sense to me with my Linux background but being able to do everything I wanted on all my devices was not coming easy. When I stopped and thought about the apps that were important to me mainly MS Office and my bible study resources, Windows made the most sense. For the first time every thing works. I switched to Logos because it looked like you guys were moving forward on all fronts. That said this Samsung Slate is awesome, It runs the Logos software very nicely.

I have a number of friends who went with Apple computers and ended up doing a similar thing and switching back to Windows.

The new windows phones are getting great reviews and I think there will be a number of people that will be looking to unify and simplify the blending of devices. The windows OS still has the largest market share for the home / work computer. I will close by saying... to say these things about windows goes against everything I have said for years but this windows Slate is awesome. It combined with Logos is becoming an invaluable tool to me and my ministry. Thanks ...

I quite agree. With the ability to synchronize information across various devices, I'm getting used to using different devices that suit the occasion: So my phone goes with me when its inconvenient to carry a satchel; My Tablet PC for when I want to take notes in a meeting; and my desktop for when I'm doing some serious content creation. With the cloud, all my PIM information is the same no matter what device I carry.

On a phone, as Russ says the screen is never going to let power users do everything they want. That's very much a Bible 2.0 scenario. The only content creation I see for Bible 2.0 is journalling or note taking for further enquiry later on a different platform.

Serious study needs a bigger screen and a keyboard.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345521#Comment_345521

Otherwise we risk being like the MS-DOS Bible software company executive who passed up a chance to acquire Logos v1.0 in 1991 because he had enough experience (from GEM, TopView, GeOS, etc.) to know that graphical windowing interfaces were a UI fad that wouldn't make it, making it unnecessary for him to invest in building or buying a Windows Bible software product.

Yeah that scenario must have been played out thousands of times all around the world in the early 90s. In my case, I saw it in an international trade application that went the way of the dodo because the principal couldn't see that the future lay with graphical UIs.

I think they believe, right now, that they can do both on the same software.

Yes, we do believe that. It's not the exact same software, but rather a toolbox of components, data sources, and flexible constructs that we can deploy on multiple platforms and customize for different users and user interface paradigms. Maybe this is too ambitious, but we think it can be done, and that we're already well on the road: we use the same ebook files, the same display engine, and other shared pieces to deliver to both the desktop and the iPhone.

I prefer that its on the same software. I don't like swimming at the deep end all the time, and I like the idea that I can have a casual dip in the same pool.

So will you see Logos giving a lot of attention to consumers and casual Bible students / readers? Yes. Because they outnumber you 10 (or 100?) to 1.

Whether others like it or not, its the practical reality. I think you're on the right track.

Is that to the detriment of our service to you, the loyal power user? It may feel that way, because you see so much of our attention going to the consumers. But we also have more resources to give to our core power user market, and there are many more people in this market than there used to be. We have 26 times as many developers as when we built Logos 1.0. We have 8 times as many developers as when we built Libronix. If we give only 10% of our people and resources to developing desktop tools for serious study, we'll be giving more people and resources to desktop software than we ever have in our 20 year history.

These kinds of stats makes me think that Logos has long legs that can stay the course. It means that I can invest in Logos' resources with confidence.

Mike Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345550#Comment_345550

(By the way, this is why I think the next crop of great theological minds are going to come from the old folks in the engineering world --we've been taught to think, and think hard! And hence my drive to get an MDiv, then a PhD, then move into teaching in the next 10 years or so!)

Thanks Russ for those encouraging words! I'm an engineer (ME, auto industry) who got an M.Div and have been in ministry ~12 yrs. I'm thinkin' I should probably go for the PhD now! I have found it true there is quite a bit of unwillingness for folk to think and think deeply these days. Which is really unfortunate! But I think there's a hunger for the deeper things...just have to give it in "chewable" bites. I've done whole sermons before just on a word and only one point and people have liked them.

Best wishes on your pursuit!

Mike

Anonymous

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345521#Comment_345521

Russ, I love hearing your perspective on this. I hope you won't mind my engaging this particular debate more deeply, because I think it's really interesting and useful. (If this is too long, the Logos-specific answers are at the bottom!)

I love it when Bob posts long posts like this. He can't help but let future directions out of the bag when he does. :-)

I head people saying in 1998 that nothing would ever substitute for the paper book. 'The feel, the easy interface, the smell, the weight in my hand, etc. etc. etc. These eBooks are a fad.' And in 1998 all those people were right.

I have heard the same stuff recently, around the Kindle's arrival. And this time, those people are wrong. And the funny thing is, some of the people who believe it most strongly (and wrongly) now are the people who just a decade ago were right about the exact same thing. And they didn't change; the world did.

A lot of ideas are round for a long time before some key peice comes into place falls into place to make them really practical. Often, it's not obvious in advance what that key peice is. While the videophiles and video engineers were debating about how much better Beta was than VHS, VHS came out with the key feature: the ability to record 120 minutes, which for the every day user trumped the whole video quality debate. Shoot, I usually used VHS in EP mode to get 6 hours.

Going back even earlier, if you had asked horse-and-buggy users what they would like in a new transportation vehicle, I doubt any of them would have said a gasoline engine. There were powered vehicles that failed before Ford started buiding them on an assemly line.

It's easy to laugh at the people who get it wrong, but that's because we have 20/20 hindsight. It seldom is obvious from the ground where some singular adjustment of the the paradigm will push a concept over the tipping point from a failure to a success.

Yes, cloud computing is just client-server come back around. It's exactly the same thing, with only minor differences. Like the fact that client-server technologies involved heavy, bulky client terminals physically tethered by a network cable or a land-line phone line. And today's "cloud" uses ubiquitous wireless signals that talk to client devices that weigh 6 ounces, keep a charge for 24 hours, and are presently carried in the pocket or purse of nearly everyone over the age of 13 in the developed world.

Other than that, client-server and cloud are exactly the same.

And ubiquitous wireless access may be the idea that pushes the cloud computing paradigm over the tipping point. Though I could imagine future technology that could push it back the otherway. Imagine if you could have a computer 1000x faster with 1000x more storage that could fit in your contact lens and project a high resolution heads-up display directly on your retina. Local computing (and the increased security from hacking that accompanies it) might make sense again.

Russ, the funny thing is that my instincts are just like yours. I've been deeply immersed in the computer industry for almost 30 years, and I too have enough experience to know that a lot of what gets the kids excited these days is a bad idea we've already tried. Which is why it's so important to keep an open mind and to keep re-evaluating the bigger context for fundamental changes that make bad ideas good at last. Otherwise we risk being like the MS-DOS Bible software company executive who passed up a chance to acquire Logos v1.0 in 1991 because he had enough experience (from GEM, TopView, GeOS, etc.) to know that graphical windowing interfaces were a UI fad that wouldn't make it, making it unnecessary for him to invest in building or buying a Windows Bible software product.

I remember using GEM. I even did a little programming on it. I wrote a instrument manager from my Kawai keyboard on my Atari ST. Man, I had forgotten all about that. That was, what, late 80's?

And that was true -- all through the 90's and until recently. But now any serious mapping problem would want traffic data integrated into the solution. Any fleet manager would want dynamic re-routing based on real-time traffic incidents. Anyone researching a GIS problem wants integrated satellite imagery of any point on the earth at their fingertips. And while I could get an annually updated CD-ROM with all of America's roads, no CD-ROM could hold all the imagery of America at 3 meter resolution. No local computer could store it, or sort and aggregate the real-time reports of thousands of cars reporting back their GPS location over cellular networks for real-time traffic analysis on roads without sensors.

On the other hand, every time I go over the mountains where there is no reliable cell coverage, even from Verizon, I really miss having a local mapping app. I think ideally, solutions need to be hybrid. I may not be able to get 3 yard or better resolution, but I sure wish it could at least display where I am on the road.

antonym(word1=Gloss,word2=Antonym), Gloss < Antonym, token(reference=Ref,lemma=Lemma,gloss=Gloss), token(reference=Ref,lemma=AntLemma,gloss=Antonym).

Does that meet your need for

...new ways to do research (even if it means more complexity) in a real desktop application.

? :-)

(But, I must confess, there's a catch... running that query (and the others this new system supports) in any reasonable time frame -- which we can do now -- requires a massive amount of data running on a server with massive amounts of memory. So while we could deliver it to your local machine, you'd need to dedicate 16 gigs of RAM to the query processing system. So our present plan is to build a rich, desktop UI for this -- no iPhone interface planned! -- but actually send the queries to a dedicated server in the cloud with massive memory and SSD hard drives. The result set will be sent back to you and delivered in a rich local UI you can manipulate on your own machine.)

While the syntax there is a bit less than intuitive, so I can't tell exactly what it's doing, it suggests you might be doing something similar to what I suggested years ago. I've wanted to be able to use Princeton's WordNet database to be able to search for meanings rather than for words. For those unfamiliar with WordNet, it organizes words by how they are semantically related. You're probably familiar with synonyms and antenyms, but WordNet also does hypernyms, hyponyms, and meronyms (and maybe some others I'm not remembering off the top of my head). So, if I want to find, say, things about the authorship of Mark, in a single search, I could find all sorts of related words to authorship without having to think of them (or look them up) myself.

Of course, I would also like to make use of natural language parsing in searching too. No, I don't mean the semantic web stuff that tries to pull sylogism from the text and draw conclusions. I mean to identify how words are related to each other grammatically. Take my "authorship of Mark" search above. There are lots of articles in my library (4000+ resources) that mention authorship and mark near each other that have nothing to do with the authorship of Mark. But if I could search for authorship and related words that have a close grammatical relationship (I don't necessarily care which one) to the word Mark and anything closely related to it (like the phrase Gospel of Mark, or Mark's Gospel), then I probably will get a lot less false positives in my search.

Yes, we do believe that. It's not the exact same software, but rather a toolbox of components, data sources, and flexible constructs that we can deploy on multiple platforms and customize for different users and user interface paradigms. Maybe this is too ambitious, but we think it can be done, and that we're already well on the road: we use the same ebook files, the same display engine, and other shared pieces to deliver to both the desktop and the iPhone.

Yes, we do encounter difficulties. Our massive data type system and Bible versification data sets, for example, are literally too large to deliver to today's mobile devices. So our mobile apps have to use some shortcuts, make some assumptions, and occasionally be less precise when navigating obscure texts while offline. If you need to do "real work" on comparing ancient texts, you'll want the desktop Logos Bible Software.

I think its a mistake to think exclusively in terms of this tool for this user and that tool for that other user. Everyone uses multiple tools, some more than others. As long as we're using the tool metaphor, let me run with it for a few minutes. Resources are like building materials. Each building material, or more accurately, each use of each building material, has its own preferred tool for working with it. To build our final product, a Bible Study, one has to choose there materials and tools that best suits there abilities and goals.

I'm a big fan about thinking about activities as a work flow. The search tools (and conceptually, this includes the library manager) are the front end of my workflow. I use them to find and select my building materials. Some of the search tools are useful for finding types of building materials, while others for finding others. As my library has grown, however, I've found the search of the full text of the entire library to be getting less and less useful because it returns way too many false positives (see my comments about searching for authorship of Mark above). Doing extensive searching on a small screen just isn't very useful for weeding through 100,000's of hits, the majority of which are not interesting. A big screen on a fast computer is more useful.

The next stage of my workflow is reading and taking notes. In the analogy, this would be like cutting my building materials down to size. I don't need a 30" monitor for reading a book or a journal artical cover to cover. In fact that's counterproductive as it exceeds my field of view. I find my 8.9" HP Slate (Windows 7) works very nicely for that, even if going from "page" to "page" takes 2 or 3 seconds. I'm really looking forward to getting a Samsung Note when it comes to Verizon so I can try using the mobile app for this stage. I seldom use the clippings and notes features. Clippings because I can't reorganize them, notes because they used to be so slow, but I've noticed they have sped up a lot lately, so I may try using them more. Mostly I use OneNote. And I handwrite my notes with the stylus. Yes, I could type text faster with a laptop, but the HP Slate is just too conveniently small and handwriting is much faster than virtual keyboards. Plus, there's more to note taking than writing text. With handwriting and OneNote, I can use positioning and color and ink weight and quickly drawn arrows and highlights and such to encode more information than just typewritten words allow.

The final stage of my workflow is typically at an actual keyboard using Word to write up the final study, and probably having a second monitor plugged in so I can have word and Logos and OneNote all up on the screen at once. So to sum up my point, I move from using a laptop to do the initial searching, to a tablet for reading and notetaking (and in the future, maybe the tablet for notetaking and a phone for reading), and back to a notebook again. Having the same resources, but different tools on different platforms to use those resources, is powerful and useful for a single user. It isn't a matter of some users being phone users, some being tablets, some being laptop, and some being desktop users.

Is that to the detriment of our service to you, the loyal power user? It may feel that way, because you see so much of our attention going to the consumers. But we also have more resources to give to our core power user market, and there are many more people in this market than there used to be. We have 26 times as many developers as when we built Logos 1.0. We have 8 times as many developers as when we built Libronix. If we give only 10% of our people and resources to developing desktop tools for serious study, we'll be giving more people and resources to desktop software than we ever have in our 20 year history.

I don't think it feels that way because the so-called "consumer" features are things important to part of my workflow.

Ward Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346060#Comment_346060

This thread has certainly radically increased it's "interestingness" quotient...

Michael March

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346065#Comment_346065

Very interesting indeed. Thanks to all. The only thing I will add is that as has been mentioned above, I like the cloud but also want local storage. Sometimes the cloud is not available for any number of reasons. In Bob's example of the updated mapping giving an advantage while driving because the road changes are so huge that only the cloud can keep up, I heartily agree. Google is updating it's maps constantly and they are the most updated that I can find. Which is all great until your phone decides to have data drops, and then you're completely quite literally lost, until your cloud services decide to start working again, for that you will need a physical map or a physical chip with a map in it (which recently happened to me!).

I love the cloud, and enjoy the syncing and also the tablet usage with Logos, but I am very glad all my resources reside on the two hard drives of my computers at home and at Church (cloud synced, of course). I like the ease of keeping up, but I want the security of local storage. Only then am I not dependent on the cloud to be working for me to be working.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346089#Comment_346089

Which is all great until your phone decides to have data drops, and then you're completely quite literally lost, until your cloud services decide to start working again, for that you will need a physical map or a physical chip with a map in it (which recently happened to me!).

Or until you start paying what the network really costs in one way or another... Just another factor to keep in the back of your mind when thinking about local storage and processing. One of the problems with "cloud" is it means so many different things (SaaS, IaaS, PaaS, etc.), so both local synchronization with remote storage (like what Logos does today), and completely remote storage and processing (like Salesforce.com) are both considered "cloud." What Logos is doing right now on the PC is local/remote synchronization with local processing. On iPads and the like, it's remote storage with local processing. So far, you can "meter" your use of the network by shutting it down or bringing it up (download some books, configure the iPad for airplane mode).

To return to the map example --I know a couple of folks who have specifically gone back to local maps on the cell phones (with all that entails) because they hit a couple of months of $500+ cell phone bills. I personally have had $500+ (one month!) cell phone bills because of text messages (!) while in an overseas local (it doesn't take video to rack up bandwidth). The point is the network ain't cheap when you really start paying for it as an independent item at full cost.

I'm all for synchronization --so long as I can control what's synchronized and how often. When we get to the point where all my applications force me to use the network all the time, things get a little stickier. :-)

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/345721#Comment_345721

What MS needed to produce to distinguish themselves was a tablet OS that could run the Logos Bible Software apps fo the world.

True...

So Kevin I agree with you that MS's tablet-only version of MS8 is probably headed for the also-ran heap...

But they also released a W7 replacement version with ALL the tablet features & front end that is ALREADY in beta running Logos 4? (Seems like I remember at least one post -- in this thread? -- from someone who's doing that.) Why do you feel that this version makes no sense, if the corporate buyers can flip a switch & continue pretty much as-is? Can't they really be all things to all people? ;-)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346283#Comment_346283

Windows 7 tablet version was not touch friendly. You had to use a stylus. For windows to really grab the mojo from Apple, they have to do something really bold. Another tablet software that runs little apps from an MS app store ain't it. If they did what they did with win8 but had the ability to run apps like Logos, then they'd have something awesome and could draw people like me back.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346455#Comment_346455

If they did what they did with win8 but had the ability to run apps like Logos, then they'd have something awesome and could draw people like me back.

Did you see the post from a user that is now running W8 beta (laptop version) WITH L4? What am I missing? Is this not the full tablet version that runs L4 that you're looking for? Takes advantage of full small available small-form processing power rather than a skinny one like ARM?

Again, what am I missing?

EDIT: Here's the thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/38163/340274.aspx#340274

Kevin, you're right... no gestures or touch as yet in W8. Until there is, you're on target where this release is headed...

Anonymous

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346455#Comment_346455

That's a common misconception. First, there is no "tablet version" of Win7 like there was with XP. All the tablet features are built into the base OS. Second, I use Win7 on an HP Slate daily. I use the stylus for handwritten notes, not navigating windows. Win7 is actually fairly touch friendly. I'm not saying it's perfect, and there is the odd program, Logos4 being the chief among them, that somehow manage to not be compatible with touch, but by and large, touch is a fiarly pleasant experience on Win7.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346571#Comment_346571

That's a common misconception.

Thanks for weighing in... :-)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346571#Comment_346571

I use the stylus for handwritten notes, not navigating windows. Win7 is actually fairly touch friendly. I'm not saying it's perfect, and there is the odd program, Logos4 being the chief among them, that somehow manage to not be compatible with touch, but by and large, touch is a fiarly pleasant experience on Win7.

I've been using L4 daily on my Thinkpad tablet pc.

It has a screen that
supports both touch and stylus input. I use the stylus for navigating Windows and for text input. So far I haven't found any obvious incompatibilities between L4 and Windows. Admittedly I'm using WinXP Tablet Edition. Perhaps something is broken in later versions?

There's a setting in Logos that expands various screen elements of the program so its easier to hit them accurately.

Ward Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346455#Comment_346455

Windows 7 tablet version was not touch friendly. You had to use a stylus. For windows to really grab the mojo from Apple, they have to do something really bold. Another tablet software that runs little apps from an MS app store ain't it. If they did what they did with win8 but had the ability to run apps like Logos, then they'd have something awesome and could draw people like me back.

Perhaps matters of opinion. A stylus can help--selecting text or trying to do a pen flick with a finger in Logos isn't advisable when the stylus makes that happen so much faster and more precisely. In Win8 Dev, I have noticed that I can now use my finger to write in the handwriting pane and get OK results--in Win7, you pretty much had to use a stylus to get precise enough in the handwriting pane.

http://hothardware.com/Reviews/Windows-8-Metro-vs-Desktop-Conflicts-and-Disconnects/?page=1

This seems to be the key point to me:

"The layout that works extremely well when working with a small number of
tasks but falls apart completely when dealing with large numbers of
programs and icons."

A very simplified interface works well for viewing content, but not for creating new content. While 90% of the computers in the world are bound to be used 90% of the time for simply viewing what other people have created along with really minor input, the other 10% of the time you really need a serious content creation environment. IMHO, this just explains the problem we face in the interface wars, and always have --content creation and content consumption are two completely different things, and need to be treated completely different in terms of interface design. A single interface that really does both well will actually be two interfaces the user switches between.

Which is why reading and taking notes will always need a different interface than research and building papers/books.

:-)

Russ

Greg Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346455#Comment_346455

Funny. I was blissfully ignorant at how poorly Windows 7 worked with touch when I bought my Asus Slate a year ago. I'm really glad I didn't see this thread while I was using Logos to finish my graduate degree in theology using that Slate, particularly since I didn't realize it would only run little apps, and not MS Office 2010 Professional while writing my research papers, or running Visio and Project for work.

I'm also glad I didn't know when I switched from Windows 7 to Windows 8 Developer preview back in October that I was turning my tablet that had replaced my laptop into nothing more than an oversized smartphone, like an iPad. Dumb thing kept running Logos even on W8. Glad I didn't know better. Now that I've upgraded to W8 Consumer Preview, I'd better uninstall all those full Windows programs, since I'm obviously delirious and set it back so it's only running apps. Or, I could swap it for the new version of the iPad, which can run full Logos, along with full MS Office programs. Oh, wait... no it can't.

I know, I'll go back to using a laptop, because it's much more convenient to carry the extra weight, and most people don't mind hearing the keyboard click while I'm taking notes in church, instead of using the pen like I do now.

I just wish I hadn't bought this little tablet and installed the little tablet software that runs little apps from the MS app store.

Hey, wait a minute, Kevin! You said "If the did what they did with win8 but had the ability to run apps like Logos, then they'd have something awesome and could draw people like me back.". Guess what? They did! I'm typing on it right now!

OK, my sarcasm switch is off, but I've heard too many Apple fanboys dissing on MS anything because they're so in love with their Apple devices. Steve Jobs did an excellent job building awesome user interfaces and stable platforms that stretched the bounds of computing. Unfortunately for him, he couldn't break the stranglehold on the business world that MS held, so I stuck with the MS platforms (including Windows Mobile 5.x through 6.5 for my phones) for my personal use, since I was going to use a MS platform all day at work. I was ready to dump my last Windows phone for an iPhone due to the quirkiness of WP, when Windows phone 7.0 came out. I bought one of the first, and have to tell you that MS nailed it. Sure it was an early release, and there were things missing, but W7.5 fixed that, and for objective reviewers Windows Phone is beating iPhone 4 and Android regularly.

I was also ready to switch to a MacBook to replace my work laptop for personal use, when I stumbled upon this Slate and Windows 7. Wow! I forgot about the blue screen of death, and all the other issues with Windows XP (never did the Vista thing). Biggest downer was the fact that W7 screen layouts and controls are not touch friendly. It works, it's just that you have to have a rather precise aim with your fat little finger to hit the red X in the upper right corner to close a program. Logos is also not touch friendly, as it's a real bear to scroll in the windows using the scroll bar, but I've learned to adapt (primarily using the arrow and page keys on the keyboard). Windows 8 is taking my Slate to a whole new level. I have a computer that's as powerful as my Dell laptop that my employer provides, but way more portable, with a user interface that's waaaayyyy more functional, whether I'm using the Bluetooth keyboard to write a research paper, or the stylus to take notes in OneNote (which by the way, synchs with my phone via SkyDrive).

For those of you who haven't demo'ed Windows 8 yet, you should, and you should do it with someone who's actually used it and is familiar with it's capabilities. Is it different? Of course! It doesn't have a start button. Get over it, you don't need it anymore. It works fine in a desktop environment, although I can tell you in my office, more and more folks are using their desktop environment less and less every day.

NOW, IF ANYONE IS STILL READING: I came to this thread to see what Logos was planning to do with Logos 4.x to make it more user friendly for Windows 8, and for the touch environment. I posted many months ago about how the sliders for the scroll bars were difficult to use, that swiping and other touch gestures were desperately needed. You (Logos developers) should have your copy of Windows 8 by now... Please give us an idea when we're going to see some innovations in Logos that make it ready for the future.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354973#Comment_354973

OK, my sarcasm switch is off, but I've heard too many Apple fanboys dissing on MS anything because they're so in love with their Apple devices.

So --I'm not an "Apple fan boy," and haven't ever been one. But I am someone who spends a lot of time doing serious work that requires having multiple applications open at one time --I don't ever consider one application an island unto itself. I use CorelDRAW, OneNote, and Word together; I use OneNote, CorelDRAW, and Powerpoint together, I use OneNote and Logos as if they were one application.

I also happen to have spent a good bit of time studying interface design. And I've actually spent time with some of the folks at MS talking to them about the UI design --at the VP level.

So the Windows 8 interface might be perfect for some things, as I said before. But it's not perfect for those of us who do heavy content creation, as I said. If you treat each application as an island, something that is self contained, and never interact with more than one other app at a time, then it's fine. But, if like me, you don't put your notes in Logos, and you don't do your graphics in Powerpoint, and you go beyond using the built-in clip art, then it's painful to use.

In other words, if you don't find multiple monitors useful --if you can live on a single 13in monitor having only one application open at a time for all your work-- then you'll be happy with Windows 8. Those of us who use 26+in monitors, or use multiple monitors, will find all that real estate wasted, and we'll find ourselves being forced to full screen switch between multiple applications. Goodbye drag and drop between applications, goodbye being able to see the context of the quote you're pulling from one app to another, goodbye being able to keep one eye on that background job while doing something else, goodbye being able to see the outline of an argument while working on the paragraphs, goodbye being able to see your notes while building a presentation.

That is, of course, unless you're using the Windows 7 interface on Windows 8. In which case you've already admitted that the Windows 8 interface isn't useful for what you do. I'll bet you are using the Windows 7 multiwindow interface for most of your work on that laptop, rather than using the "full screen for every app" Windows 8 interface.

So you can can your sarcasm. There are no "apple fanboys" here, no matter how much you'd like to make us all into a straw man you can knock around easily.

Russ

Greg Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/355044#Comment_355044

I apologize for not making myself more clear; when I clicked "reply" on Kevin's thread on page 2, I mistakenly assumed that it was quoting the message.

I'm not sure what made you think my post was an attack on you, or that I was setting up any strawmen. In fact, my post was intended to address the multiple comments on this thread that blasted all things Windows 8, by trying to explain (as have several other users) that Windows 8 works, and that Windows can work in a tablet environment, and do some of the very things that other posters here have condemned MS for either not doing, or ignoring.

My feeble attempt at sarcasm obviously masked my primary purpose for writing.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/355111#Comment_355111

although it certainly seems to me that Kevin has clearly aligned himself with all things Apple and dissed all things MS.

Do I have to embrace all things Apple before I can "diss" all things Microsoft? [6] I actually like Windows XP and Windows 7 Ultimate the rest = rubbish! I've never tried to use 26+ inch, or multiple monitors. In the libronix 3 days I used multiple (read 3) Gateway 36" monitors. They generated enough heat to keep my room very warm. Now I can connect my laptop to a 73" flatscreen in my living room. [:D] Oh,life is good! I'm not sure what made you think my post was an attack on you, or that I was setting up any strawmen. Ok. You made some good points Greg. Now how 'bout we all put away the Red Bull and get out the Nestle Quick Strawberry and enjoy a Peace party. [;)]

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/354973#Comment_354973

NOW, IF ANYONE IS STILL READING: I came to this thread to see what Logos was planning to do with Logos 4.x to make it more user friendly for Windows 8, and for the touch environment. I posted many months ago about how the sliders for the scroll bars were difficult to use, that swiping and other touch gestures were desperately needed. You (Logos developers) should have your copy of Windows 8 by now... Please give us an idea when we're going to see some innovations in Logos that make it ready for the future.

Logos 4.x is currently using the .NET Framework v3.5, which doesn't provide built-in touch support. We plan to migrate to .NET 4 (at which point adding touch support should be fairly easy), but there are some significant text rendering problems that are currently delaying that move. (It's also possible we could write our own low-level touch integration for .NET 3.5, but that may be a lot of work that becomes completely unnecessary later.)

That is to say: we're aware of the problems, we want to address them, but we don't have an estimated date for when this will be done.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/355171#Comment_355171

Logos 4.x is currently using the .NET Framework v3.5, which doesn't provide built-in touch support. We plan to migrate to .NET 4 (at which point adding touch support should be fairly easy), but there are some significant text rendering problems that are currently delaying that move. (It's also possible we could write our own low-level touch integration for .NET 3.5, but that may be a lot of work that becomes completely unnecessary later.)

Aargh! Don't do it. I am aware of a software company (not mine!) who had a similar choice in the DOS days and instead of adopting windows, wrote their own Windows-like but character-based UI complete with draggable windows and scroll bars. They went the way of the Dodo.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/355171#Comment_355171

I hesitate to add anything to this thread because I know I am way over my head, but I wish someone could respond to why my simple wish is not what everyone wants:

I wish I could have my own cloud in my house...with only my content on it, and I can travel the world with a tablet and access my cloud, my material, in my possession, not material stored on someone else's servers.

The reason for this is that it is a known fact that cloud companies do disappear, and the content that people had on a company that goes bankrupt can disappear overnight. As well, why have another monthly bill to put the huge amount of content on someone else' cloud based server which claims to be secure (a claim no company can really make today).

Companies offer respond by saying people do not want this. I realize that might be true, but find it difficult to believe. I more believe that there is more money in forcing the cloud to be outside the home. And that is today's trend.

I have hope that in 5 years or so, eventually enough people will make it possible to use tablets connected to a cloud server based in one's home.

But if someone can correct this simple minded thinking, I really am listening. I just cant see why people would not welcome a solution of a cloud in their own home that they can access anywhere.