Windows 8 & Logos- Logo's Team thoughts?
Comments
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Mark said:
I wish I could have my own cloud in my house...with only my content on it, and I can travel the world with a tablet and access my cloud, my material, in my possession, not material stored on someone else's servers.
You can --take a look at the various synology network attached storage devices, for instance. The problem you're facing it three fold, however:
1. Cloud isn't just about data, it's also about applications. The ultimate goal of cloud is to have no --zilch, none-- applications on your computer other than a web browser (aka the operating system). The dream of cloud is that you have very lightweight devices --like phones-- that can do complicated things because the computation takes place someplace else.
2. Part of the way all of this is going to be paid for is by mining the data you store and the processing you do on a server someone else owns --ala Facebook and Google. A lot of folks don't like to admit this piece of the puzzle has to be there, but it has to be at some level to make this whole thing work. If you can't pay for the compute power locally, you can't pay for it remotely --even if you time share it out among various people. The cost of the network far overcomes the cost of shared compute power in very real terms. There's little encouragement to store things in a "personal cloud" because, after all, then the data can't be mined.
(Logos isn't mining our data today, they are just riding the wave of a cheap network and remote storage/compute supported by these factors.)
3. Because most people don't understand the tradeoff between privacy and convenience, there is a massive drive to "have my data any time, any place, without my having to do any work along the way." Most people will "sell" telling everyone in the world what they had for dinner for a small spike in "likes," without realizing that their privacy loss is very real over long periods of time. It's the jar of pennies problem --taking a single penny out of a jar of a thousand pennies doesn't make you feel like you have any less money, and you can laugh at someone who says you're losing your wealth by removing the pennies. When you get to the bottom of the jar, when you can visibly see your wealth going away, it's too late to do anything about it. The jar is practically empty before you start to feel the impact of your actions.
Because bandwidth is so very cheap today --a byproduct of various congruent things all happening at the same time-- , and because there is so much new personal information which companies can take and make money off of, remote storage and compute power is a realistic alternative in terms of pricing. We'll have to see how this turns out in the long run, but there will probably be a point where the costs of networks rebounds (most of the large providers are running at a loss right at this moment, making up for network costs with other services, much like first class mail), and the amount of personal information being gathered just can't continue to offset the cost of the network, then the model will fall likely apart. At that point, the cloud folks hope to have the model so solidified that you'll gladly pay to be liked online --that you'll pay them for the "likes," not only in terms of privacy, but in terms of real money.
At least that's one network engineer's perspective on where things are today.
(And by the way, before anyone jumps in here and says I'm scaring people away, etc., I'm just giving an honest appraisal of someone who's been in the networking industry for 15+ years, and computers for 20+ years. I'm certain Logos can adapt to local storage, so this isn't a discussion about the future of Logos itself, just a theoretical discussion about the state and future of "cloud computing.")
Now if you want to set up your own personal cloud using something like the synology solution, you can --but you're going to pay for the network (either in speed of access or in actual cost of buying larger links), and you're going to pay in terms of synchronization (Google doesn't let folks sync to an android phone off their "personal cloud" --see #2 above), and you're going to pay in terms of having local apps that can read the remote data (which most companies don't want to supply, see #2 above). Because of the complete lack of any concern over the long term effects of the cloud on the way we live our lives (see #3 above), you're fighting a very real uphill battle.
:-)
Russ
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I appreciate the responses, but it seems that only Russ understands my question, and I have appreciated his response.
But now I want to take it the next step. I realize that applications are needed to mine my data. But that is what I dont understand. Right now in the Windows 7 environment, i still have the applications I need to mine my data. I have MS Office. I have Logos 4. I have a few applications I use in Win 7 to mine my own data.
So what I dont understand is why the world is not going in the direction of allowing such applications I have just mentioned, traditional PC computing applicatioins to be stored on one's own private server so that a pc computing experience cannot continue on a tablet without having to pay for services such as google docs etc.
I maintain that I suspect someone will see money in making some kind of android applications available to people like myself who wish to have a private server, or company server that is not hosted by google or facebook or some other company out in the world somewhere that will allow me to access my data on my server.
And another question: TODAY, is it possible on an ipad or Asus eee Pad Transformer Prime TF700 to access a word file from a home pc or from a home server?
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alabama24 said:
Who is to say that your ISP won't go out of business tomorrow too? Who is to say your house won't be broken into while you are gone, taking your "cloud" to someone else's house? Which "cloud" are you worried about? Are you worried about Logos going out of business?
If my ISP goes out of business, I lose nothing. I just switch ISPs. They do not own my data. I own it. I lose nothing. Of course a house can be broken into, but that is a straw argument. Are you suggesting that google and facebook etc are more trustworthy, safer? If it is in my house, I am responsible. If it is lost, damaged etc, it is my fault. If I make no back up etc, who can I blame but myself? I would rather that happen then put it in the cloud in someone else' trust.
I totally accept that many prefer to trust the cloud and that is great. I have no issue with that. And I am glad you seem to have found that to be a wiser way to go. I have no issue with it. I am not sure why someone might have an issue with someone wanting their data on their own cloud server or on their own church server or business server that is not tied to a 3rd party company.
No I am not worried about Logos going out of business. But I am worried about not being able to access the logos cloud as a missionary in certain areas of the world.
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Mark said:
Are you suggesting that google and facebook etc are more trustworthy, safer?
Who said anything about "Google and Facebook"? To answer the question, I trust both to be more reliable than your home computer. I do not trust Facebook over privacy issues.
Mark said:No I am not worried about Logos going out of business. But I am worried about not being able to access the logos cloud as a missionary in certain areas of the world.
Are you a missionary? If so, where would this "home cloud" be that would be so reliable?
Mark said:I am not sure why someone might have an issue with someone wanting their data on their own cloud server or on their own church server or business server that is not tied to a 3rd party company.
Mark said:Of course a house can be broken into, but that is a straw argument.
It's not a straw argument. You are not ever going to have a more reliable home server than google.
I am not against you having your own cloud server… but who makes apps to utilize a home server? Furthermore, why should Logos invest any time or thought into this when it would service a very small percentage of users?
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alabama24 said:Mark said:
Of course a house can be broken into, but that is a straw argument.
It's not a straw argument. You are not ever going to have a more reliable home server than google.
Maybe, maybe not. But you're trying to make reliability the primary argument for using the cloud. There must be a understood decision to trade off owning your data verses the convenience of putting your word processing documents in "the cloud," so you can word process on your cell phone from anyplace in the world.
All things are tradeoffs whether or not we want to believe it. There are no free lunches, anyplace, anytime. If the service is free, you are the product.
alabama24 said:I am not against you having your own cloud server… but who makes apps to utilize a home server? Furthermore, why should Logos invest any time or thought into this when it would service a very small percentage of users?
This is -but why is this such a minority of users? Because we're all perfectly willing to trade off "pennies of privacy" for convenience. When the penny jar is almost empty, and we realize what we've done, will we be able to go back? It's not a silly question, it's a serious one, worth thinking about when you do that next Google search, or make that next post on Facebook.
In the larger sense, Logos doesn't fit into the same category --again, they are simply riding the wave that's high right now because of social sites like Facebook and Google. And I fully believe they can still adapt when things change. There might be a point where all software is so embedded in "the cloud" that you simply can't work without it, and Logos might eventually be trapped in that situation along with everyone else, but I don't think that's their intent.
Russ
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alabama24 said:
I am not against you having your own cloud server… but who makes apps to utilize a home server?
I guess you might be coming close to understanding my question. Thanks for taking time to add your input. But I think Russ has hit the issue on the nail. And I appreciate Bob investing time and thought in this thread.
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Russ White said:
But you're trying to make reliability the primary argument for using the cloud.
I am trying to make it THE primary augment because it IS. The point of the cloud is to access data from anywhere, on any device. If that isn't the reason, then what is the point? If you are concerned about privacy, don't put ANYTHING on "the cloud," whether on Google, Logos, or at home. Even with a "home cloud," you still use the internet which provides opportunities for your data to be stolen. The only real way to be safe/private on the internet is to not use the internet.
I understand privacy concerns, up to a point. I just spent 2 hours deleting ALL of my wall posts on Facebook because I don't trust them. Everytime I turn around, they are giving new people access to my information. It is also scary when a russian app company makes an app to interface with Facebook, seemingly for the purpose to stalk women. [It shows the profile of any woman who has set their privacy to "public," who has checked in nearby, providing stockers the ability to track them down. It was pulled from the app store, by the way, when its purpose was discovered].
But back to Logos… what is the "privacy" concern? What does it matter if my copy of the ESV is on the Logos servers or on mine? What does it matter if my highlights are on their servers or mine? What does it matter if my sermon notes are on their servers or mine? I can't think of ANY privacy concerns, except with the issue of prayer requests, which to be honest, isn't a strong feature of the software anyway.
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alabama24 said:
I am trying to make it THE primary augment because it IS. The point of the cloud is to access data from anywhere, on any device.
I think I'm confused --you seem to be arguing that reliability is the argument, and then you say the convenience is the argument.
alabama24 said:The only real way to be safe/private on the internet is to not use the internet.
You're mixing apples and oranges. Driving my car across a road isn't quite the same thing as storing it in someone else' garage. Even if I park my car in someone else' garage I have the key, and the world recognizes it's my private property through title, registration, etc. With data, who really owns it? When something can be reused infinitely, and you can't know when it's been stolen or used without your permission, stealing data becomes a "victimless crime."
The problem is there are no victimless crimes.
Now, as far as privacy on the Internet --of course all your data can be intercepted. Most of it probably is, in fact. But there's a solution to that problem. It's called encryption. The reality is that you, as a user, can do something about your data being intercepted when it's going across the 'net at large, and there's little an ISP can do about it. Spare me the discussion of how all crypto has back doors, it can all be broken, etc. Sure it can. I can break the md5 key used in OSPF, EIGRP, IS-IS, or BGP in a matter of hours/days with enough compute power. But note that it's hours/days, not minutes, nor seconds. The point of encryption isn't to make something so you can't ever get to it, the point is to make it take so long, and cost so much effort, that it's just not worth doing --that the value of the information is less than the cost of obtaining it. This is the theory behind door locks, home security systems, etc., as well.
alabama24 said:I understand privacy concerns, up to a point. I just spent 2 hours deleting ALL of my wall posts on Facebook because I don't trust them.
Which accomplishes precisely nothing.
alabama24 said:But back to Logos… what is the "privacy" concern?
Now you're breaching a completely different topic, one that I've addressed in a number of other posts. I don't want to rehash the entire argument here, but I will say that I don't store my notes in Logos, I store them in OneNote. I have a lot of reasons for this --privacy, because OneNote helps me organize my thinking better, because I think it's wrong to expect the notes in Logos to ever support what a "real" standalone note application can support. I prefer applications that do a few things well over applications that do a lot of things just okay (in fact, you could argue that this simple idea is the entire reason behind the entire personal computer revolution, and that cloud is taking us in the opposite direction in many senses, with all that entails).
This final reason is, in fact, why I use Logos and OneNote and Logos "as a unit," and why having both applications open at the same time, on a single screen, is so very important to me --and why I don't think something like an iPad, or even a laptop with a 13in screen, can ever replace the speed and efficiency I get through a large screen with multiple apps residing side by side. I learned long ago that a few minutes a day saved by organizing my tools for greater efficiency is far and away worth the effort.
Just to try and draw the discussion back to the point of this entire thread --Windows 8, and the single application metaphor built into the native Win8 interface.
Russ
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Greg Walker said:
NOW, IF ANYONE IS STILL READING: I came to this thread to see what Logos was planning to do with Logos 4.x to make it more user friendly for Windows 8, and for the touch environment. I posted many months ago about how the sliders for the scroll bars were difficult to use, that swiping and other touch gestures were desperately needed. You (Logos developers) should have your copy of Windows 8 by now... Please give us an idea when we're going to see some innovations in Logos that make it ready for the future.
Logos 4.x is currently using the .NET Framework v3.5, which doesn't provide built-in touch support. We plan to migrate to .NET 4 (at which point adding touch support should be fairly easy), but there are some significant text rendering problems that are currently delaying that move. (It's also possible we could write our own low-level touch integration for .NET 3.5, but that may be a lot of work that becomes completely unnecessary later.)
That is to say: we're aware of the problems, we want to address them, but we don't have an estimated date for when this will be done.
Bradley, thank you very much for that explanation--as a frequent advocate for touch/pen savvy L4Win HMI, it helps to understand the challenges you must overcome to provide what I've been advocating for. I'm hoping that perhaps you find a 3d party library that helps bridge the gap until the future code base.
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Russ White said:
I think I'm confused --you seem to be arguing that reliability is the argument, and then you say the convenience is the argument.
I thought I was pretty clear, but I guess not. Convenience of having the data at your fingertips is the main issue. It is why people use the cloud. Reliability is the reason I use someone else's cloud, and not a rickety box in my broom closet. After all, it's not very convenient to use a service which is unreliable.
Russ White said:I don't store my notes in Logos, I store them in OneNote
Notes are a funny thing. The way you seem to be using notes is very different than what Logos is currently capable of doing. I would like to see improvements in this area, but that is another topic of discussion. Personally I see great value in what Logos currently offers… the ability to attach small notes to the text I am reading.
Russ White said:Just to try and draw the discussion back to the point of this entire thread
It has gotten derailed a bit… back to the Mac forums I will go. [:)]
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You've made some great points of the usability of Windows 8. It's amazing, making me really enjoy my HP TM2 again. Being a convertible laptop, it's got the best of both worlds with touch screen and keyboard, yet transforms into a tablet with a twist of the screen.
Right now I'm installing Logos on the Windows 8 Release Preview. I hope to see how compatible it is. I'm planning on making this aging tablet last longer by using upgrading to an SSD to boost Logos. It's a drag. Talking about dragging, it'd be nice to know more why the touch weakness of .NET 3.5. Going towards .NET 4 sounds good, but how long till then?
Multi-tasking is very-doable. It is nice to have a tablet, turn into a laptop, turn into a desktop with 2 1080p displays. I'm a heavy content creator, multi-tasking with dozens of programs, including movie editing, raw photo editing, service bulletin producing, OneNote, etc., etc., all while Logos is working.
Logos would work much better if it could do the basic things every other program I own seems to do: respond to "flicks", scrollable like IE and so on. I'd just like a basic page down response. But it doesn't work.
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Vincent Xavier Shaw said:
Multi-tasking is very-doable.
Are you multitasking with the single app at a time interface? Or with the older traditional interface? Would you consider multitasking as effective on tablet display as effective as multitasking on the full sized monitor? How effective/useful is a 26in monitor when you're in the "single app full screen at a time," mode?
My point was (and still is) that the multitasking required for solid content creation requires a large screen (or many screens) so you can see multiple things at one time. Tablets are moving us towards "one app at a time," which is good for consumption, bad for creation (or forces all creative activity to be "within one app," which is outside the entire model of the modern computer). What I imagine will happen is people will end up with multiple devices connected to multiple displays to get around the single app mode --for a model of this, see the recent announcement by MS tying the XBox to windows phones and windows tablets through the local wireless network, so each device can display different parts of the same app, or different apps, and share data between them. How effective it will be to have multiple smaller computers in this way remains to be seen.
As for cloud... I noted this last week that cloud is on the decline in the IT world, based on several indicators. Within a couple or three years, "cloud" will be another defunct marketing term that swung too hard in one direction. People are discovering that networks cost money, and simply can't reach every corner of the world all the time. Likely we'll all swing too hard in the opposite direction before it's over with, but that's the nature of the IT industry.
Russ
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Russ White said:
As for cloud... I noted this last week that cloud is on the decline in the IT world, based on several indicators.
Again, Russ, I appreciate your thread, here. I hope Logos is looking at it closely. I am not surprised by your statement here. There are many reasons for people with data they dont want to lose to be wary of their life long data being stored in the cloud in the hands of people they do not know. There are more sensible models that are not being promoted due to the money that is to be made at present in the cloud.
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I multitask with both Metro and within the Desktop app. Metro allows you to snap windows, just like Windows 7 and Logos, given one has enough resolution. I'm sure you do.
As a tablet, the HP TM2 has a resolution of only 1280 x 800, which is not enough for the aforementioned Metro snapping. Yet, with the excellent waacom digitizer (the floating sort) and with the touch screen, I do multitask in Windows 8 through the easy task-switching, of sliding in from the far left. As a tablet, it's wonderously snappy on my slow ULV C2D SU7600 1.3 Ghz processor. It's better than the android and ipad and playbook, but that's just my opinion, from a tablet perspective.
From a laptop perspective, it's key to have a good user input. I still can use my touch screen or pen, my keyboard shortcuts, my touchpad or my external mouse. It's very easy to learn how to go in and out of things. It's different enough that, as my computer-avoiding wife said it, "People are complaining about that / what?! That looks easy. It just works."
It's like when we first learned that we don't need to have the faucet running the whole time when we brush our teeth and floss and shave. You can save money and water just shutting it off. But it's hard to want to, even if you know your comfort is holding you back.
I've wondered to myself at times how hard it is to aim at the nested folders, under folders, of the start menu. Corners are easier to find and take minimal effort with a mouse. The search and synergy shows so much more practice than any green button. It feels like I have more room to run around in my old computer's new lease on life. By the way, I've found it's better now to have a higher speed mouse with greater acceleration, to avoid picking up the mouse over and over to get from one side to the other. In so doing, I quickly manage the windows and action authoritatively.
I don't use a 26" monitor with one app in Metro. Try to learn it's strengths and see how you can use it. I've only had it a day and found a few new ways to be productive. Some workflows will never work for some people. In OneNote, I'd often have the pen in my right hand, while I'm typing on the real keyboard, quickly able to write on the screen as well. Some people will never markup and draw like that, but I do. I'm also trying to practice the better side of "consumption" as you put it. There are times I must meditate, no multi-tasking, just absorb. Read, no serendipity, just steadiness with prayerful and deliberate focus. The Kindle for me has been a blessing regarding this very thing that is a strength: that we are fed, so we can feed others.
Now docked in, expanded via multiple monitors, it just becomes like any other device. But now, I can multi-task with 3 panes snapped, (because with the higher resolution for my 1280 x 800 screen, yippy) I get to snap a metro window and the usual desktop regulars. I'll have Logos maximized on one monitor with my bulletin designing program under it, while several IE tabs snapped in Metro in another window while I have several folders, PDFs, Kindle, all sorted out together.
Still, in Logos, I'm upset that the most basic up or down flick to page up or page down doesn't work right. I receive a graphical confirmation that I'm doing it correctly, but Logos just ignores what every other window recognizes to scroll. I don't need inertial scrolling or page animations. While that's all cute, I prefer being able to turn a page with the tech transparent between me and the matter of the moment. Just one solid page, so I can read the next line quickly. In keyboard mode, I just click spacebar to page down or shift+spacebar to skip back. What I would like is the capacitive touches by hand register as window management and page scrolling, but pen flicks and points and gestures handle Logos commands and linking, highlighting and text interaction.
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Vincent Xavier Shaw said:
I don't use a 26" monitor with one app in Metro.
Precisely. One app on a large 26in screen wouldn't make any sense... And yet, that's what Metro is moving towards, one app on the screen at a time, like an iPad, or other iOS device. For content creation, you either have the option of one application on the screen at a time, and every application has everything you'll ever need (think the various Visicalc and Wordperfect suites back in the old days), or you must switch between the applications, which consumes time and concentration skills.
So, I go back to my original argument --one application at a time is great for consumption, not for creation. Operating systems designed for one application on the screen at a time will always be very limited in their creation capabilities. The solution, at this point, seems to be many small monitors, but I don't know if people are really going to like that.
Russ
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Russ ... I've followed your comments for a while. It's interesting reading.
What you're saying sounds a lot like Microsoft's development of Windows Mobile. At first, they tried to force single app but playing like miniature Windows. Other app writers quickly wrote around it to allow multiple apps accessible. That process made it all the way to 6.1 but the required pen made it pretty dorky.
Then they fell in love with Steve Jobs and introduced 6.5. It was very interesting as a commentary on a company. Of course it was badly done. But again they tried to force a single app and literally removed copy/paste from the UI (but still supported it if you had old software).
So Microsoft is quite capable of nuttiness in their quest to look like Steve.
No offense to Bob & Co, but I'm guessing he'll also have to continue the dumb-it-down (not reflecting on users) if only to economically survive multiple platforms and interfacing software.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Today I plugged my convertible Tablet into the 47" LCD, experimenting with just one monitor. It's great to have on screen multiple windows, quickly switched and organized. Logos worked. Metro apps snapped rapidly, while simultaneously on the same screen, I had Logos and other programs snapped and swapping.
The problem is there are alternatives that are much more responsive and agile for serious work, especially exegetically. This non-native program drags.
I had a 3.6Ghz 8-core with 16gigs RAM, with 4 drives in RAID, discrete GPU for graphical acceleration. Sadly, I got rid of it. Why? Because I built it to make Logos fly, and did it? Nope. It was faster for other programs that ran natively. But for that money, we afforded 2 laptops instead.
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The problem isn't following Apple or not --it's that small screens just don't support rich UI's like the one's we're currently accustomed to. Look at something like spraycan, and compare it to something like Corel Painter --two pieces of software that do the same thing, but optimized for different sized screens. The pure richness of something like Painter just isn't possible on an iPhone screen, no matter how you try to do it. So you either must throttle back richness in the UI, which means throttling back features, or using a larger screen for more complex/creative tasks.
It's clearly possible to do "good art," on an iPhone, but the user is simply going to be confined within the tools available on the smaller UI, which, in turns, constrains the artist into the lines the developer has drawn. To relate the example to something like Logos --suppose you could only really display the results for a search in such a way that you could only choose two commentaries to search --simply because of screen size issues? How would that impact your Scripture studies?
So that, for me --as someone who builds a lot of graphics and books-- is a huge deal in terms of screen size. Maybe someone will find a way to have the same richness on a small screen without having to leap through tons of menus, and without compromise. I know this is what at least some of the folks at MS are struggling with, and I don't think anyone has the answer for that problem right now. The answer, right now, is to assume that users will accept interfaces where the developer makes more of the choices than they do today.
Cloud is a different topic, of course... :-)
Russ
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Vincent Xavier Shaw said:
Still, in Logos, I'm upset that the most basic up or down flick to page up or page down doesn't work right. I receive a graphical confirmation that I'm doing it correctly, but Logos just ignores what every other window recognizes to scroll.
This is something that we plan to address (given that Windows tablet/slate computers should become much more common later this year), but I don't have a timeframe for when it'll be available. (Unfortunately, there are some complicated technical dependencies we need to sort out first; it's not as simple as writing a couple of lines of code to enable touch scrolling.)
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Russ White said:
(By the way, this is why I think the next crop of great theological minds are going to come from the old folks in the engineering world --we've been taught to think, and think hard! And hence my drive to get an MDiv, then a PhD, then move into teaching in the next 10 years or so!)
[Y]
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