Logos4 is garbage

I still can't get this thing to work. We need to spend ours online on these blogs just to find out how to make it work? It should work right out of the box without all this trouble! Logos3 (libonix) is much better than this mess. You need to go back to the drawing board and redesign this thing from scratch.

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Jacob Hantla

Logos4 was designed from scratch so that it just works. That has been the experience of most, but as with any complex piece of software you will benefit from learning from "power users." Adobe Photoshop is far from garbage and you could take courses full time for well over a year and not master it. Libronix (Logos3) also had a learning curve (a steeper one in my opinion and experience). If you are having a specific problem (i.e. with install) or having difficulty understanding a feature, please ask. This post doesn't give us much to go on to help you get going.

Paul N

I still can't get this thing to work. We need to spend ours online on these blogs just to find out how to make it work? It should work right out of the box without all this trouble! Logos3 (libonix) is much better than this mess. You need to go back to the drawing board and redesign this thing from scratch.

Glen, you're not the first to make this mistake but by posting on the forums you are speaking to a large community of Logos users. I imagine people talking in a large room, when the door slams open. Everyone who was talking immediately turns their attention to the door to hear "Logos4 is garbage!" Then the person standing in the doorway, addressing the crowd of people, says "You need to go back to the drawing board and redesign this thing from scratch".

customerservice@logos.com might be a better avenue for direct talk with Logos, or you could always give them a call/skype

As users, we'd be happy to help where we can...

MJ. Smith

We need to spend ours online on these blogs just to find out how to make it work?

I went back through your prior posts to see what made you come to this conclusion. I know that some say the user interface is intuitive. Well, I'd say intuitive as video games - if you've play them they're obvious; if you haven't you click around hoping to accidentally run into a click that does something. Logos 4, does, however, have some excellent user-produced videos and a wiki of hints. If you don't have the patience to poke around, try these resources until you get the hang of how Logos works.

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/296757#Comment_296757

Logos 4, does, however, have some excellent user-produced videos and a wiki of hints. If you don't have the patience to poke around, try these resources until you get the hang of how Logos works.

Here is the link. http://www.logos.com/videos/pc. If you are using a Mac, then go here. http://www.logos.com/videos/mac. Also see the support videos. http://www.logos.com/support/videos.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/296761#Comment_296761

Follow-up to one forum discussion is wiki page => Getting Started with Logos that includes many Tips and links, including excellent unofficial videos.

For Logos 4 search speed improvement, local indexing is needed, which definitely slows "out of box" experience.

By the way, appears Logos 4.5 Beta 2 is noticeably quicker to launch and includes Notes/Highlighting design change.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Bootjack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/296764#Comment_296764

Yea Glen, you have to pick the program back out of the garbage box and install it back on your computer - follow the directions and then your grief will vapourize like an early morning fog. :-}

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/296773#Comment_296773

Given that your posts go back to January and before I'm assuming you've had a decent amount of experience with it. Personally I love the program and think it is far better then L4. I'd love to see a list of some of the things you least like about it.

Bob Schlessman

I still can't get this thing to work. We need to spend ours online on these blogs just to find out how to make it work? It should work right out of the box without all this trouble! Logos3 (libonix) is much better than this mess. You need to go back to the drawing board and redesign this thing from scratch.

I second everything the other forum members have already said.

I also migrated initially from L3. I was also very frustrated by the differences between the two packages, to the point of removing Logos 4 from my computer completely and going back to L3 for a few weeks. But I decided to give it another try, taking the time to watch the videos mentioned earlier and reading through the forums. My productivity improved and I eventually made the switch to L4 completely. I no longer have L3 on my systems.

L4 is to Bible study/reference software what Adobe Photoshop is to photography. It is a complex and powerful tool that takes a significant investment of time to learn, but is well worth the investment. The payback for me has been rewarding. Don't give up. Follow the suggestions given here and I know you will be glad you did.

JT (alabama24)

It should work right out of the box without all this trouble!

Logos does work "right out of the box." So does a lawnmower. You still have to learn how to turn it on to use it.

I still can't get this thing to work. We need to spend ours online on these blogs just to find out how to make it work?

Whose fault is it if you have been spending "hours" on these blogs if you haven't asked any questions? Is there a particular problem you are dealing with now? Also, have you even taken training or watched some videos? You can start with these FREE ONES, or MP|Seminars , or LearnLogos.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/296792#Comment_296792

Wow, can you feel the love coming from MVP's?

IMHO, this is yet another case of someone who is having a bad experience with L4, and a good number of MVP's are jump all over the poster for posting his frustrations.

(More of MHO) L4 has been out for almost two years now. When it came out, it received a lot of bad comments. Two years later, the number of negative comments about L4 has decreased; still, it is still receiving these same negative comments. This should tell us a lot about L4.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297499#Comment_297499

(More of MHO) L4 has been out for almost two years now. When it came out, it received a lot of bad comments. Two years later, the number of negative comments about L4 has decreased; still, it is still receiving these same negative comments. This should tell us a lot about L4.

The only thing it tells me for sure about L4 is that it is a program. All programs have those who think the program isn't what they want or expect. I have no problem with someone posting their frustrations. However I do have a problem with someone posting that they are frustrated without posting their frustrations.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297499#Comment_297499

Wow, can you feel the love coming from MVP's?

Actually, most of the MVP posts have attempted to reach out to Glen with a careful but generally hospitable tone. One of them met parry with parry. Even then, one recognizes that for some folks, a direct contradiction is more effective than other ways of dealing with the conflict. I suppose one could read more into those other MVP posts than I do, but then one could read more into any post than is there.

I've chosen not to respond to Glen, since others have, and he's not come back to respond.It's not easy to help people who aren't directly asking for help and who won't say what they want help with. If he just wants to vent, that's fine. I think asking for help is a better way to go, but people are free to express their opinions (as long as we are free to disagree with them too).

But I did choose to respond to you because your statement above seems to exaggerate what's actually happened here.

(More of MHO) L4 has been out for almost two years now. When it came out, it received a lot of bad comments. Two years later, the number of negative comments about L4 has decreased; still, it is still receiving these same negative comments. This should tell us a lot about L4.

What it tells us is that for those who mastered Libronix find L4 baffling for certain kinds of work. Many, many people who never used Libronix find L4 fairly easy to get started in, and not too difficult to master incrementally. Many others who were adept in Libronix found L4 awkward at first, but now like it much better (I'm in that camp). At least that's the pattern I've noticed, since the beginning, and seems to be the case for this person too.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297499#Comment_297499

Tom ... it's not by accident the MVP symbol is the same as the US army's one star (NATO's is a little more stylish - 3D).

But let's be fair and go over the evidence:

New Logosian particpant: 'can't get this thing to work', doesn't think hours of on-line research should be needed; compares the Logos4 product to Libronix in a negative way.

Logosian One-Star #1: 'Logos4 was designed from scratch so that it just works.' This demonstrates that the new Logosian was simply wrong. The One-Star goes on to compare Logos4 to a professional art package: message Logos is for power-users. Are you a power-user?

Logosian One-Star#2: Points out that saying bad things about Logos4 is not good form. It interrupts the other forum members calm conversations. Better to send an email to customer service (the same customer service that re-directs frustrated users to the forum).

Logosian One-Star#3: Checks out the complaintant's prior record. Seems to suggest Logos4 is about as intuitive as a video game. Recommends exactly what the user was most frustrated with: lots of research and poking around.

Logosian One-Star#4: Seems to agree with One-Star#3 and provides the address to the wiki etc. Clearly the user simply needs to study a lot in order to begin to use the software.

Day 2

Logosian One-Star#5: He also seems to have checked out the user, noting approximately 8 months of possible use before coming to the conclusion the software isn't easy to use. Politely asks what might be the problem?

Logosian One-Star#6: He returns to the major point that One-Star #1 made (just in case the user missed this point and of course the primary complaint in the first place). But the proof is not the equivalence to a professional art package, but rather a lawn mower (presumably implying one must do hours of on-line research and video watching in order to use the lawn-mower). Additionally, any responsibility must be assigned correctly: the real problem is a user who thinks software should work without hours of on-line research and video watching.

Days Later

Logosian One-Star#5: Appears concerned about criticism concerning One-Star performance. Insists that a proper complaint must include specifically what the problem is.

Logosian One-Star#7: Expresses great pride in One-Star performance, noting that one 'met parry with parry' and even contradicted the complainant (this sometimes being necessary for 'some' folks). Seems surprised the complainant never returned.

Now personally I enjoy the comments of each of the one-stars. Indeed it would be enjoyable to share worship services as well. But one does see a little humor in the process.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297553#Comment_297553

Logosian One-Star#7: Expresses great pride in One-Star performance, noting that one 'met parry with parry' and even contradicted the complainant (this sometimes being necessary for 'some' folks). Seems surprised the complainant never returned.

Actually, I'm not surprised.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297553#Comment_297553

Tom ... it's not by accident the MVP symbol is the same as the US army's one star (NATO's is a little more stylish - 3D).

But let's be fair and go over the evidence:

Denise, trying to get this productively back on topic, what would be your advice for Glen?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297567#Comment_297567

Dominick ... Glen's problem is with the folks that designed Logos4. His basic complaint was that it requires a considerable (and in his view unnecessary) investment to make basic use of. The MVP's essentially confirmed what he said (while appearing to argue that Bible software can not be designed for easy use).

I'm not a good one to ask, since I agree with Glen. And all the folks I know think the software is either unnecessarily slow or complicated.

What's the solution?

Well, taking a page out of Bob's book, either fix it (if you're Logos) or fire it (if you're the unbelievably frustrated user).

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297567#Comment_297567

Denise - Which "Logosian One-Star am I?" ... Nevermind. [:P]

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297567#Comment_297567

wow. a lot of internal dynamics, unspoken, but displayed on this thread. i don't see a lot of mutuality or patience. frankly, when i read the post, my immediate reaction wasn't patience or mutuality, either. Speaking now specifically to Glen, I am truly sorry you are not finding it helpful. Many are here to try and help you as we can. I know I have experienced my own weariness in months/years past when switching from L3 to L4. I really don't now. I realized some still do. I really like L4 better now, I realized some don't. I weary of my, and others responses that display our own frayed emotions, or cut-and-dry answers. I also weary of cries of frustration or for help sounding more like accusations, which is why I initially reacted with impatience to the original title and subsequent post. I like Logos a LOT, even as I felt varying degrees of frustration about the software in all of its manifestations: 2.x, 3.x, and now 4. I am not a logos employee. i come to the forums on my free time. I am a dad of four, husband to one, don't know tons about technology or theology, but I use both. i'm on break at work right now. i'm glad the Cards won last night. I laughed when I heard my 5 year old call it the World Serious. (just sharing a bit that is on my radar as I write this) If I can help, i will. if i cannot, hopefully someone else can, whether a forum member (starred, or not) or Logos helper. Peace.

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297570#Comment_297570

Well, taking a page out of Bob's book, either fix it (if you're Logos) or fire it (if you're the unbelievably frustrated user).

Out of curiosity, have you "fired it"? Did you go back to Libronix or do you use something else that is not Logos produced?

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297570#Comment_297570

And all the folks I know think the software is either unnecessarily slow or complicated.

I'd be happy to meet you sometime, just so you could meet someone who doesn't think the software is unnecessarily slow or complicated. If you're ever in the general are of Bellingham/Mount Vernon, WA, drop me a line. I'll buy you coffee and a pastry at any local coffee place.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297582#Comment_297582

And all the folks I know think the software is either unnecessarily slow or complicated.

I'd be happy to meet you sometime, just so you could meet someone who doesn't think the software is unnecessarily slow or complicated. If you're ever in the general are of Bellingham/Mount Vernon, WA, drop me a line. I'll buy you coffee and a pastry at any local coffee place.

[Y]

Same here, north Idaho...

(so you've heard the same from someone without a star [;)])

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297579#Comment_297579

No Rick, I didn't 'fire' Logos4. But I did assign him to helping out Libronix every now and then (hopefully over time, he'll become a better worker and not require firing).

And yes, I do thoroughly enjoy Libronix. Some (most?) like Logos4. Yesterday at Matthew's invitation, I was reading Bob's blog. I thought it interesting that Bob didn't expect people to like Logos4 as much as they did (causing him to scramble for support).

And Richard and Bill ... no offense, but it's your friends at church and relatives who share your beliefs that you'd most like to also share Logos with.

Again, no offense.

Ted Hans

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297553#Comment_297553

Denise analysis about responses from MVP's should give us with star much to think about. Especially when the poster is new to the forum. Point taken by me Denise!

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297585#Comment_297585

And Richard and Bill ... no offense, but it's your friends at church and relatives who share your beliefs that you'd most like to also share Logos with.

Again, no offense.

I'm neither offended, nor surprised by your response. [;)]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297499#Comment_297499

Wow, can you feel the love coming from MVP's?

This thread reminds me of Rehoboham in 1 Kings 12:1-24 . The Elders cared enough about the new king to give him good advice even though they knew he would not like it. Rehoboham's "friends" told him what he wanted to hear and when he heeded them, it had disastrous consequences. Granted, some people are just not computer savvy and might ought to stick to hardback books. But I think the OP just needs to hear straight answers rather than a dog-pile of unhelpful "agreement." Call it "tough love" or whatever.

What amazes me more than unhappy users who make generalized criticism without requesting help is long time posters who hate the software yet keep hanging around to offer nothing but criticism. [^o)]

Fred H.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297594#Comment_297594

I'd just like to say that I'm in the "think it's slow" and "complicated" camp. HOWEVER, I have a love/hate relationship with it. I HATE the hours of research it takes to learn and the cost I'm about to spend on some DVD's (almost as much as the program) and the slowness of the program response at times. I LOVE what Logos does and as I learn more I love it more. I also love the fact I finally discoverd that if you have a question just post it here and shazamm there are many that enjoy helping and quickly.

So...love OR hate it, one has to say....there is nothing like it.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297585#Comment_297585

no offense

None taken. [:)]

And ... it's your friends at church and relatives who share your beliefs that you'd most like to also share Logos with.

I already do... Alll Bible classes I teach are via Logos on projector / screen & my notes as curriculum.

It really was this one user I chose to comment on, since I can reach everyone locally without internet.

I enjoy your posts Denise & saw the humor...

Thanks for your posts.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297603#Comment_297603

...love OR hate it, one has to say....there is nothing like it.

Well spoken, Fred--your entire post, not just the snippet I copied... I'm probably in the same camp as you, but I choose to remember that one thing consistently slower than Logos is me, doing the same work without Logos. And I choose to remember that love is a choice. It does me no good to get upset with the software. It does me a lot of good to focus instead on HOW to get something done, even though what I've tried so far didn't work.

Many blessings to you!

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297585#Comment_297585

No Rick, I didn't 'fire' Logos4. But I did assign him to helping out Libronix every now and then (hopefully over time, he'll become a better worker and not require firing).

Have you ever paused to consider the fact Bob Pritchett has created the top two Bible study programs? You have to go to Libronix 3 to criticize Logos 4. Other companies may do one thing well but Logos 4 is a very ambitious attempt at doing many things well. The "competition" did not even enter into the majority of the events in the Bible Software Olympics. No wonder Logos is sweeping all the gold medals.

(Vyrso, Biblia.com, Perseus collections - for FREE, iOS apps, Android, faster searches than Libronix, Academic discounts, massive resource library 16,000?, cloud-syncing, Personal Book tool.........) Moses had his critics. Leaders always do.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297602#Comment_297602

What amazes me more than unhappy users who make generalized criticism without requesting help is long time posters who hate the software yet keep hanging around to offer nothing but criticism.

Nevertheless, we can learn more from one who disagrees with us than we can from 10 who agree.

Many blessings to you, & I appreciate all you do.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297615#Comment_297615

Nevertheless, we can learn more from one who disagrees with us than we can from 10 who agree.

Correct. And I do learn a lot from Tom, Denise, and others. It keeps my "Hooray" factor in check. (Thanks, Denise, Tom.)

I just thought the OP needed to hear how to get more out of his investment.

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297585#Comment_297585

Denise, thank you for answering my question. [:)]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297553#Comment_297553

Logosian One-Star#3: Checks out the complaintant's prior record. Seems to suggest Logos4 is about as intuitive as a video game. Recommends exactly what the user was most frustrated with: lots of research and poking around.

From Logosian One-Star#3 herself.

Your statement loses two points (a) that I find video games anything but intuitive and (b) acknowledges that said original is frustrated by the poking around mode and the read the forum mode, so he should try the one mode he didn't mention - watching the videos or using the wiki.

My experience in a team with three leads who had worked together for about 5 years: We were confronted with a new tool that took some significant time to learn:

B. starting working through all the tutorials and found a book to review the materials from the tutorials.
M (myself) worked through less than 5 minutes of a tutorial, decided it was stupid and simply started using the tool - trial, error and the help function.
G simply waited until B and M were proficient and asked us to walk him through a case or two

Similar distinctions happened frequently with the same pattern of behavior. I see the Original Poster as being most like M but without a good help function in the product (partially because the product has a much broader set of uses).

But one does see a little humor in the process.

[:P]

but Logos 4 is a very ambitious attempt at doing many things well.

I think that one thing many of us forget is that using Logos is in many ways difficult. And, unfortunately, that difficulty will remain and must remain. Most software for working with textual material supports a particular theory of analyzing the text. Logos supports many theories. Even if when the software for analyzing textual materials supports multiple theories of analysis, you normally choose the rules you wish to use and they apply to a particular project. Look at Visual Text as an example of what I mean.

The result is that in one sense it is easy to use Logos to get something useful; in another sense it can be difficult to get Logos to follow a particular pattern/interpretation theory. That is one reason I used to push hard to get study templates. Don't worry - I'll get back up on that soap box once Notes are functional,

Now, Denise, you have a little two-part assignment:

expand your post to reflect the subsequent discussion The summary takes far less time to read [:)]
I'm just a caffeine-shot drive south of Richard, so stop here at my favorite coffee shop first and refill your cup at Richard's favorite coffee shop.

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297703#Comment_297703

I too have been quite frustrated with the performance of Logos compared to 3. But to all it garbage is unfair. To say you are frustrated is fair. But to expect to get peace performance out of a program as complicated as Logos with little time invested is unfair. You're not using e-Sword or QuickVerse here. This is a powerful and complex program. I think the comparison to Photoshop is apt.

Wow I feel weird being the Logos defender here. I'm usually the guy saying what's wrong!

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297943#Comment_297943

And another first....I agree with Kevin! [:D]

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297955#Comment_297955

And another first....I agree with Kevin!

Agreed. I suppose it was the use of the term "garbage" in the subject with no justifiable explanation that rubbed me the wrong way. But I suppose if I invested so much money into a product and it did not live up to my expectation after a year of use I'd be frustrated as well.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297943#Comment_297943

Wow I feel weird being the Logos defender here. I'm usually the guy saying what's wrong!

LOL

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297579#Comment_297579

How to help Glen and others like him:

1. For forum users and MPs: Don't get tired of these types of comments on the forum. They are to be expected from such a complicated program. Most of us, if not, all of us, have been frustrated with L4. We have been through it. Newbies have not.

2. For LOGOS: It can take months to understand L4. People have limited time. This can lead to frustration. Logos could help by producing a basic pdf manual that comes with the program, a sort of self help manual. Much of it is probably already written in the wiki and in the videos and just needs to be tweaked or put into a pdf form so newbies can easily find it or learn of it.

3. A forum post could be written (by any interested) that would be the start of such a manual for new users. A sort of step by step instruction of what to expect for someone who has just come in contact with the program and has no idea what to expect.

4. For Glen: Most, if not all of us have experienced frustration. It is a great program, but not for everyone. It unfortunately does not ship with a manual. As a result, the forum and the wiki page and videos provided by others on this post will help you. Posting specific questions will get you answers on the forum.

Finally,

What is a treasure for one can be garbage for someone else. In my opinion, Logos is not garbage, but it comes with a very steep learning curve, and is only useful to someone who can deal with frustration. I no longer get frustrated by L4. But I have been very frustrated by it and quite frankly, caution people who many be interested in the product due to the combination of the expense, frustration, lack of a free manual and the unknown of what the program will be like when a switch is made from L4 to L5.

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/298008#Comment_298008

Logos could help by producing a basic pdf manual that comes with the program, a sort of self help manual.

One reason software companies rarely ship manuals anymore is that such manuals are out of date almost before they reach the customer. Logos is constantly adding to and tweaking the program. The wiki is the best place to go for help because the wiki can be updated alongside the program. These days, those who purchase something like Logos (which requires navigating the web) can just as easily read the Wiki page as an outdated printed manual. Logos has links to help resources all over the website. More links within the app itself, perhaps pointing directly to specific wiki articles, might be helpful.

As to the general issue in this thread, any application with any significant capability is going to have a fair degree of complexity. I have used several Bible study programs. The ones that can't do much are pretty easy to figure out. The more they can do, the more complex they are. Someone earlier made the comparison to Adobe Photoshop. A basic paint program is easy to use, but if you really want power, it takes the complexity of Photoshop. An amateur can pick up Photoshop (or Logos) and get to work doing basic things, but learning the real power of the program requires a time commitment, no matter what it is.

These tools are just that - tools to help you do more. Like any tool, you have to take the time to learn it. The more powerful the tool, the more you have to learn.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/298016#Comment_298016

Hi Chris,

those who purchase something like Logos (which requires navigating the web) can just as easily read the Wiki page as an outdated printed manual.

This isn't necessarily true. We keep hearing from users (often missionaries) with bandwidth caps & limited internet access. To PLAN tomake adequate documentation available only via web access would be a disservice to them. There really is no good excuse for inadequate documentation other than failure to make it a priority. (And as a retired development manager turned pastor, I've chosen the word failure deliberately--as much as I love Logos).

One reason software companies rarely ship manuals anymore is that such manuals are out of date almost before they reach the customer. Logos is constantly adding to and tweaking the program.

Isn't Logos in a different position, now, with respect to a user manual? Couldn't they ship a new one with EVERY release--or addition/tweak--of the software? With Logos delivery mode, does it ever HAVE to be out of date?

If the answer to that question is NO, then it begs another question: then why is it inadequate?

can just as easily read the Wiki page as an outdated printed manual. Logos has links to help resources all over the website. More links within the app itself, perhaps pointing directly to specific wiki articles, might be helpful.

Agreed this would be helpful... I'd really like to see the users' manual as a Logos resource... even if a "special" one that's enabled under the Help button. That'd enable all the tools we're used to using in Logos to find stuff, & it'd also enable Logos to use the resource update model for delivering updated Help info. Yes, it's internet focused. But those who don't use internet so often would get them the same way they get other resource updates.

I'm just sayin'.[:#]

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/298016#Comment_298016

One reason software companies rarely ship manuals anymore is that such manuals are out of date almost before they reach the customer.

The wiki is the best place to go for help because the wiki can be updated alongside the program.

[Y]

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/298022#Comment_298022

Isn't Logos in a different position, now, with respect to a user manual? Couldn't they ship a new one with EVERY release--or addition/tweak--of the software? With Logos delivery mode, does it ever HAVE to be out of date?

Good point Bill!

Logos is in the book writing/publishing business [:O]

They should make it a Logos book, not a PDF [:O]

EDIT: i would guess that if they provided a good user's manual that their customer service needs would be reduced to some extent.

EDIT2: the user's manual really needs a lot of illustrations. Pictures are very useful (the current help system in L4 virtually has no illustrations).

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/298026#Comment_298026

One reason software companies rarely ship manuals anymore is that such manuals are out of date almost before they reach the customer.

The wiki is the best place to go for help because the wiki can be updated alongside the program.

Morris Proctor ships a manual...for a price. These comments seem to be defending Logos' practice of not providing a very very basic manual (that ships or that is downloadable or available on the web) that helps the newbie get started with L4. All the software I have on my computer comes with basic manuals that are either on their website, downloadable or sent with the product. Since L4 is not a product that gets sent to people (only downloaded), it makes sense to provide a basic manual that is also downloaded or available on line. If what the MPs say is correct, then Morris Proctor is foolish to offer (for a hefty price) a hard copy manual on L4.

My point I believe was fairly clear. If you want a detailed manual on L4, you have to pay for it and you can. But if you just purchased L4 and you have NO idea how to even begin, a customer expects a very basic manual to come with the program....one that would not need to change until L5 comes out.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/298049#Comment_298049

My idea has been that there should be a manual of about a dozen "scenarios", that a new user is strongly guided to complete before doing anything else. It could be the first thing they see when they start up "Begin scenario 1", and their progress could always be prominent on the home page until all are completed. These would be very basic things to work a user through the things they want to do, like (and these are not necessarily the best first scenarios, but as example:)

1. Find all occurrences of God in the book of th prophet Jeremiah

2. Find all the verbs associated with God in the book of the prophet Isaiah

3. Build a list in Word of all the passages referenced in "<Some resource in all the base packages">"

4. Add a note to 1 Bible, to all Bibles

5. Create a Visual Filter to show the 4 sources of the Pentateuch

6. Create a visual filter for all verbs in the Gospels

7. Find all occurrences of a particular sentence structure

8. Find occurrences of the word "Reconciled" in the Epistles, and use Bible Word Study to find where the word is used in the Septuagint

You get the idea...basic, simple scenarios that demonstrate how to really get started. The documentation for these scenarios must be in detail, but if they were they would most likely continue to work for a long time because changes would not affect them.

I think this would really help people get experience in the overview of the functions, and not force them to do the same thing by watching videos and reading forums, when the program could "guide" them through it. Maybe it's done with a video that is run side-by-side with Logos so it can be paused, do the step, etc.?

My .02

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/298072#Comment_298072

I was thinking of something even more basic than what you propose

1. How to download, how to sign in, what to expect from indexing...

2. the basic layout, the menu...how to use each of the menu items and what are they for

3. Then perhaps some basic issues such as how to find a book in the library, how to do a basic search, how to set up a reading plan

4. Where to go for more help, what to do in a crash...

Some are visual learners and love videos. Others hate them. They prefer something to read. Others love to make phone calls to customer service. Some prefer a forum. Regardless, a small written manual can help

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/298072#Comment_298072

My idea has been that there should be a manual of about a dozen "scenarios", that a new user is strongly guided to complete before doing anything else. It could be the first thing they see when they start up "Begin scenario 1", and their progress could always be prominent on the home page until all are completed. These would be very basic things to work a user through the things they want to do, like (and these are not necessarily the best first scenarios, but as example:)

I am thinking of Falahee's interactive video learning series. He has you perform basic functions on your computer in a simulation of real Logos actions. Incorporating something like that into the basic Logos base package purchase would be AWESOME for Logos to do.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/298008#Comment_298008

1. For forum users and MPs: Don't get tired of these types of comments on the forum. They are to be expected from such a complicated program. Most of us, if not, all of us, have been frustrated with L4. We have been through it. Newbies have not.

I do get tired, but i need to remember my perspective and own rants I have made, and things I have said that I regretted---about many things from Logos to special people in my life. That said, ALL of us rreally really need to take care what kinds of words we choose, even IF we are frustrated. I weary of myself. I weary of others. But your point not to lose perspective on the other side is well taken. Thankyou for your own care and helpful thoughts in your replies.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/297943#Comment_297943

Wow I feel weird being the Logos defender here. I'm usually the guy saying what's wrong!

Becoming a Mac user has a mellowing effect on most people. [H]

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/298162#Comment_298162

Becoming a Mac user has a mellowing effect on most people.

Isn't that effect called depression?

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/298016#Comment_298016

These tools are just that - tools to help you do more. Like any tool, you have to take the time to learn it. The more powerful the tool, the more you have to learn.

Just go compare the features of a $200 dishwasher to a $1000 dishwasher. The former just has an "ON" button while the latter will set the table for you. [:O]