Commentary Price
Are Logos commentaries in general more or less expensive than print versions? I'm referring specifically to currently published commentaries, not older "classic" sets.
For example, I just compared WBC's Colossians commentary. Logos' price is $49.99, and Amazon.com's price was $31.99. I was surprised, as I was under the impression that digital versions are usually cheaper than print versions (I thought that was one of the advantages of digital books in general). But maybe I'm just out to lunch.
I don't have time to do lots of price comparisons today, but maybe someone else has already done this.
Just curious (not yet furious) LOL
Brad.
Comments
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The advantage of Logos comes out when you buy packages. For example your WBC individual book is much more expensive however when you buy the complete Word Biblical Commentary set it drastically drops the price to about $8.50 per book.
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Bradley, I know your perception has been one many of us have also had, and several threads have been devoted to it. I am too pressed for time to look them up. The consumer in me is dismayed when I see that Logos costs more, because it is my preferred format, and because my funds are limited. At the same time, like Alan brings up, the costs that Logos has not only in producing it, but supporting it are much greater than many of us realize. That said, I still find some volumes cheaper within Logos. I also find that sometimes Logos will offer good sales, or that the sales people will negotiate prices when you contact them. So that price difference is minimized.
And I reiterate how "giddy" I am that I have 80% of my library contained in a little laptop I carry in my back pack . . .
On another note, something happened to my formatting in this post, and I can't un-italicize it . . . [:S]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Brad- In addition to what the other guys posted, let me offer some of my thoughts:
- You should realize that Logos is a "value added reseller." When you purchase a resource from Logos, money is going to both the publisher (which also covers the authors, editors, etc.) and to Logos (for tagging the books, providing maintenance, developing the software, etc.).
- The "cost" to a publisher for printed books vs. electronic resources is difficult to asses. For example, printed books require paper, ink, warehouses, and shipping. These are "one time" expenses. Electronic books require server space, which is an ongoing expense. Another factor to consider is that electronic books don't burn, get wet, or get lost. In other words, the publisher won't have "repeat customers."
- Some publishers set the prices for electronic resources. This is called the "agency" model.
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Having logos gets us access to deals like this one, though, even though it's an older set: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/40512.aspx .
Grace & Peace,
Bill
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Yeah, these comments make sense. I never really thought of the extra costs associated with ebooks and maintaining online data. To be clear, I'm not dissing Logos at all. I've happily used 4 different versions of Logos over the past 25 years, and I still love it. Thanks to some generous resource allowances, I was also able to bundle my purchases early in my library building and ... well ... "save a bundle" [:D]
However, I'm now in a "reduced income" ministry and so I can't make those major package purchases any more. I can't lay down 1000+ beans at once on a commentary series, even if it's a great bargain. So the individual volume prices are suddenly much more relevant to me. Also, the sad fact is that commentaries within a single series tend to be of varying quality, and the prevailing wisdom seems to be, "Buy the best single commentary volumes, not entire series, which of course lessens the benefit of buying entire series. For example, I bought the complete-as-possible-at-the-time Word Commentary set - saved a bundle, but also got some less than stellar volumes and will probably have to buy more commentaries just to make up for the weak ones. Blah blah blah blah ... now I'm whining, but you get the point.
I wonder if Logos would ever offer discounts for multiple purchases (ex. buy 5 books at once and save 10%) even if they're not from the same series or set.
Anyways, to reiterate - I still LOVE my Logos and wouldn't trade it for any other Bible software. I'm just trying to come up with an affordable plan to keep growing my library. Thanks for listening.
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Bradley Cowie said:
I wonder if Logos would ever offer discounts for multiple purchases (ex. buy 5 books at once and save 10%) even if they're not from the same series or set.
I think you might have some success in getting something extra off if you talk directly to sales.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark Smith said:Bradley Cowie said:
I wonder if Logos would ever offer discounts for multiple purchases (ex. buy 5 books at once and save 10%) even if they're not from the same series or set.
I think you might have some success in getting something extra off if you talk directly to sales.
In addition to securing a somewhat reduced price by speaking with a rep, you might consider putting it on a payment plan as a method of spreading the cost over a period of time.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Bradley Cowie said:
I wonder if Logos would ever offer discounts for multiple purchases (ex. buy 5 books at once and save 10%) even if they're not from the same series or set.
You might be lucky if you ask Sales directly (I wish it for you) - given that single commentaries may be very expensive, 10% are not that much and could be negotiable. My experience is, that sometimes there are sales underway that aren't announced and if you ask for a product ABC you may be told "no rebate, but on XYZ we could give you a special price". Then there are all the different things like March Madness, Forum Sales week, Daily Deal on Twitter (I personally refrained from buying the ICC commentaries even at 50%, but others may feel different about that) and people tell that Christmas season might bring another sale. For L3-resources it helps to look for third party offers (even on eBay).
By the way: the 1000+ dollar commentary series you may thinking about is not available in single resources for Logos (but for other software). Generally I would encourage you to shop around - and to be patient. Actually, I'm trying to tell this myself sometimes.
Maybe Logos one day will put up an auto-rebate functionality like the one you suggested on their website (it would only help them to increase the amount of shopping - three books 10%, five books 15% does sound even better to my ears).
Have joy in the Lord!
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yeah, I was thinking NICOT/NICNT, but I think you're right - no individual volumes available. Bummer!
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Bradley Cowie said:
However, I'm now in a "reduced income" ministry and so I can't make those major package purchases any more. I can't lay down 1000+ beans at once on a commentary series, even if it's a great bargain. So the individual volume prices are suddenly much more relevant to me. Also, the sad fact is that commentaries within a single series tend to be of varying quality, and the prevailing wisdom seems to be, "Buy the best single commentary volumes, not entire series, which of course lessens the benefit of buying entire series. For example, I bought the complete-as-possible-at-the-time Word Commentary set - saved a bundle, but also got some less than stellar volumes and will probably have to buy more commentaries just to make up for the weak ones.
I wonder if Logos would ever offer discounts for multiple purchases (ex. buy 5 books at once and save 10%) even if they're not from the same series or set.
Your comment made me wonder if Logos could bundle commentaries by books of the Bible, much like the CP classic commentaries offerings? I understand that publishers are hesitant to break up the set, and realize that at some level that makes good business sense. For example, you can sell Numbers commentaries in a bundle, but purchases of Numbers commentaries alone will be minimal. Everyone wants to preach and study the NT books and neglect the OT, and this means that OT books sell fewer units (I believe this trend is gradually reversing). So I understand the publishers' hesitancy. On the other hand, the publishers and Logos are missing out on lots purchases because many individuals cannot afford the upfront costs of purchasing an entire series. For example, the NICOT/NICNT at its cheapest price was almost $1000. I am not arguing that $1000 for this series is unreasonable, but it is often impossible for many pastors/Bible students to spend this at once, or even on a 12 month payment plan. Or if not impossible, it may not be wise or good stewardship. This forces people to buy the paper version, even though they might prefer it in Logos. And if purchased in a paper version, many will acquire a used copy to save money. And the purchase of used volumes does not benefit the publisher. Here is where a bundled set of commentaries focused on a book of the Bible would be a possible solution. Because expository preachers and Bible students often focus on books of the Bible, this would create a market that would benefit the user, Logos, and the publisher. More volumes would be sold to those who are not buying Logos commentaries because they cannot afford the upfront costs, and customers will be happy to acquire the books they need at a price that is manageable.
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Bradley Cowie said:
I'm now in a "reduced income" ministry and so I can't make those major package purchases any more.
Hi Bradley, I'm swimming in those same waters... last 7 years in small church ministry... That's why I steered you to CP. I'm finding that for preaching, the 100 year old sets on CP (if carefully selected) are almost as valuable as newer sets, & MUCH MORE fit in my budget. Carefully selected? Heavier on application for preaching, lighter on textual issues. (Still need a good set on textual issues, but I don't look at replicating those to build my library).
Consumer pricing is the best game in the Logos town for inexpensively building your library.
Many blessings on your ministry!Grace & Peace,
Bill
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Si Cochran said:
Because expository preachers and Bible students often focus on books of the Bible, this would create a market that would benefit the user, Logos, and the publisher.
I would recommend a different approach — preach from the lectionary. The lectionary will cover almost all of the bible over time in an orderly fashion avoiding those parts which are of dubious worth for preaching such as the "begats" (although I did once preach a sermon on Gen 5). The advantage of the lectionary is that it forces you to deal with passages you may not otherwise. I've known a number (quite a number) of ministers who have their own favorite hobby-horses.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
I would recommend a different approach — preach from the lectionary. The lectionary will cover almost all of the bible over time in an orderly fashion avoiding those parts which are of dubious worth for preaching such as the "begats" (although I did once preach a sermon on Gen 5). The advantage of the lectionary is that it forces you to deal with passages you may not otherwise. I've known a number (quite a number) of ministers who have their own favorite hobby-horses.
Thanks for the recommendation George, though I am not convinced that this approach actually fulfills the calling of preaching "the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:27). The lectionary might be a more well-rounded approach when you compare that method with topical preaching, but admittedly you recognize that certain portions of Scripture are avoided in the lectionary. When Paul says that, "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for
reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (ESV) in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, he seems to suggest that there are no parts of Scripture that "are of dubious worth for preaching." To be sure, some passages of Scripture are more important than others, but this does not mean that certain portions of Scripture are without benefit to the congregation. By the way, if all Scripture is God's Word, who are we to say that people don't need to hear from some portions of it? In contrast to the lectionary, the expository preaching of books of the Bible deals with all of the text, because the method is grounded in the understanding that "all Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for
reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." There are clearly poor applications of expository preaching (For example, spending an enormous amount of time on one book of the Bible and never getting to the rest of Scripture.), but pointing out the misuse of the model is a not a proper critique of the model. I agree with the warning to avoid "hobby-horses," but expository preaching properly applied does this. I preach texts I wouldn't normally preach because I preach all the text in the particular book, so the people get a well-rounded and steady diet of God's Word.0 -
A couple of questions to clarify your post 'cause you have me perplexed.
Si Cochran said:but this does not mean that certain portions of Scripture are without benefit to the congregation.
Are you meaning to imply that preaching on a passage is the only way that the congregation will benefit from the Scripture?
Si Cochran said:the calling of preaching "the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:27).
Are you implying a model of preaching that will cover the entire Bible in some period of time (at least within a lifetime)?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Si Cochran said:
the calling of preaching "the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:27).
Are you implying a model of preaching that will cover the entire Bible in some period of time (at least within a lifetime)?
W A Criswell of Dallas First Baptist covered the entire Bible in 18 years. Sunday morning, Sunday Evening, Wednesday Evening.
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Bruce Wilkinson walked "thru" the entire Bible in one day. [;)]
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Jack Caviness said:
W A Criswell of Dallas First Baptist covered the entire Bible in 18 years. Sunday morning, Sunday Evening, Wednesday Evening.
Ah, I was thinking only in terms of the primary Sunday service. It makes perfect sense outside that and is, in fact, what the Office of Readings comes close to doing on a two year cycle.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Jack Caviness said:
W A Criswell of Dallas First Baptist covered the entire Bible in 18 years. Sunday morning, Sunday Evening, Wednesday Evening.
Ah, I was thinking only in terms of the primary Sunday service. It makes perfect sense outside that and is, in fact, what the Office of Readings comes close to doing on a two year cycle.
Many years have passed since I read his book, but I distinctly remember that he would pick up Sunday evening where he left off that morning. No longer sure exactly what he said about Wednesday.
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MJ. Smith said:Jack Caviness said:
W A Criswell of Dallas First Baptist covered the entire Bible in 18 years. Sunday morning, Sunday Evening, Wednesday Evening.
Ah, I was thinking only in terms of the primary Sunday service. It makes perfect sense outside that and is, in fact, what the Office of Readings comes close to doing on a two year cycle.
Many years have passed since I read his book, but I distinctly remember that he would pick up Sunday evening where he left off that morning. No longer sure exactly what he said about Wednesday.
Several years later, he wrote that if he had it to do over, he would not rush through as he did the first time.
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<<Start stepping on toes>>
From the Logos Site [May be errors as I could not copy and paste from all places on the site]
Community Pricing:
The Community Pricing program lets you set the price. The lowest price with enough bids to cover production costs will be the final price. To get it at that price, all you have to do is make sure your bid is at or above the final community bid.
Pre-Pub Specials
I Want One:
A book or collection is posted on Pre-Pub. Lock your price in early before it goes up
We want one:
Determine which books we make by placing your order. Your card won’t be charged until we ship it.
We Build it:
Once there are enough orders to cover costs, books are put into the development process.
You get it:
When the books are finished, your order will be processed, being the first to get the new books!
Thus any book that goes through the Community Pricing or Pre-Pub process has all production costs promised in full before the production starts [Yes, there will be some lost sales at the last minute]
Then the price goes UP. Example: Barnes, CP price was set to $30 – that paid all production costs. It went into the Pre-Pub process – at $90. It is now for sale at $119.95 [[save $480 (80%) off retail]]
Yes, “”the costs that Logos has not only in producing it, but supporting it are much greater than many of us realize”” BUT they told us that they would not release it until they had “enough bids to cover production costs”
And Yes, “”
(1) You should realize that Logos is a "value added reseller." When you purchase a resource from Logos, money is going to both the publisher (which also covers the authors, editors, etc.) and to Logos (for tagging the books, providing maintenance, developing the software, etc.).
(2) The "cost" to a publisher for printed books vs. electronic resources is difficult to assess. For example, printed books require paper, ink, warehouses, and shipping. These are "one time" expenses. Electronic books require server space, which is an ongoing expense. Another factor to consider is that electronic books don't burn, get wet, or get lost. In other words, the publisher won't have "repeat customers." [[[warehouse expense one time? – what if the book stays there for 6 years? – Please reclassify that expense as ongoing - thanks]]]
(3) Some publishers set the prices for electronic resources. This is called the "agency" model. “” [[[How was it offered at a lower price in Pre-Pub but not latter? If there is a publisher controlling price it would not have gone through CP]]]
With all of that taken into consideration: If they could sell it for $30, if they could sell it for $90 and if by now all of the set up costs [tagging scanning etc.] are paid for why is it now selling for $120????
Also remember that you can NOT share this book with your now grown former child or any other fellow Bible student. [Every user MUST have their own copy]
[[[And this does not address the [VHS / Bata-Max] // [DVD II / Bluray] type issues of how long will we be able to use the book format where dead tree versions are until it gets lost, burns up or falls apart – not worried about Logos but what about Nook, Kindle etc.]]] [Disclaimer: have spent and continue to spend on Logos books]
[[[And while I am stepping on toes might as well go all the way: quote “”For example, the NICOT/NICNT at its cheapest price was almost $1000. I am not arguing that $1000 for this series is unreasonable, but it is often impossible for many pastors/Bible students to spend this”” end quote I will argue that that MIGHT not be a good price. That was a GOOD price for a Library or Church with 200 users – Is it still a good price when each user must pay that amount for their own copy??? Who was the intended target of those high cost sets? Libraries with many users? Researchers that can charge it off as an expense item or charge $20,000 to speak at your school?]]] <<End stepping on toes>>0 -
David Ames said:
<<Start stepping on toes>>...<<End stepping on toes>>
I'll let Logos, the company justify it's own business & sales model.
If you don't like the price, if you think Logos overcharges, if it's not worth it to you, if you don't like the user agreement, don't buy it.
Really.
It's that simple.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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David Ames said:
[[[And while I am stepping on toes might as well go all the way: quote “”For example, the NICOT/NICNT at its cheapest price was almost $1000. I am not arguing that $1000 for this series is unreasonable, but it is often impossible for many pastors/Bible students to spend this”” end quote I will argue that that MIGHT not be a good price. That was a GOOD price for a Library or Church with 200 users – Is it still a good price when each user must pay that amount for their own copy??? Who was the intended target of those high cost sets? Libraries with many users? Researchers that can charge it off as an expense item or charge $20,000 to speak at your school?]]]
Sorry* to throw a wrench ["spanner" for those across the pond] into your gears, but Logos doesn't have group licensing. All of its licenses are for individuals so there can be no comparison of prices for "Libraries with many users" and individuals. Where are you occupying? I realize many today decry profit, but the truth is that if companies (including Logos) don't make a profit then they don't continue in business then we wouldn't get our books. I therefore suggest that if you don't like the fact that Logos makes a profit or if you don't like the amount of profit they make, you can simply not buy their offerings and let the rest of us do as we please by buying them and supporting the company.
* EDIT: No, I'm not sorry, I lied.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Jack Caviness said:
Several years later, he wrote that if he had it to do over, he would not rush through as he did the first time.
There's a certain advantage in the model (but rarely the practice) of 3 church services a day - Morning Prayer, Worship service, Evening Service. I do know a number of people who consistent make two of the three.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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George Somsel said:
Sorry* to throw a wrench ["spanner" for those across the pond] into your gears, but Logos doesn't have group licensing. All of its licenses are for individuals so there can be no comparison of prices for "Libraries with many users" and individuals. Where are you occupying? I realize many today decry profit, but the truth is that if companies (including Logos) don't make a profit then they don't continue in business then we wouldn't get our books. I therefore suggest that if you don't like the fact that Logos makes a profit or if you don't like the amount of profit they make, you can simply not buy their offerings and let the rest of us do as we please by buying them and supporting the company.
* EDIT: No, I'm not sorry, I lied.
CORRECT - Logos does not allow group licensing BUT some books are seen as worth much money as that is the price that LIBRARIES pay for them in hard copy.
THEY pay (the Library with 200 members) $10 per member - we pay $1000 per reader (Just you or me) for the same resource that we get for 50% of retail price. (we could pay 100 times what the library member pays) [[just for the record I have paid 125% of the cost of my second car for Logos resources and will continue to buy]] And I did say ""MIGHT not be a good price."" [[By the way - the HIGH cost items make Logos a lot more 'fun'. Logos is much more 'fun' at Platinum then it was at Gold!]]
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David Ames said:
Is it still a good price when each user must pay that amount for their own copy???
It was a good price for me, so I gave Logos my money. If it is not a good price for you, keep your money. But stop trying to make the rest of us feel guilty because we considered it a fair price.
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Jack Caviness said:David Ames said:
Is it still a good price when each user must pay that amount for their own copy???
It was a good price for me, so I gave Logos my money. If it is not a good price for you, keep your money. But stop trying to make the rest of us feel guilty because we considered it a fair price.
Sorry (and without an ‘*’) for making any one (especially you) feel guilty. Have Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary, BDAG/HALOT Bundle, The United Bible Societies' Handbook Series and then upgraded to Scholar's Library: Platinum. Am not getting anywhere in getting a discussion going on what a fair price is for an e-book that is used by one person vs dead tree sold to a library – So will drop the subject [till the next time the subject comes up – have not always jumped in on the subject when it comes up] [[am upset over Classic Commentaries and Studies on Revelation [at $160] as some, knowing that subsets are ‘worth’ over $100 each, bid high on day one – we will not get it at 50 and maybe they will not get it at 160]]
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David Ames said:[[am upset over Classic Commentaries and Studies on Revelation [at $160] as some, knowing that subsets are ‘worth’ over $100 each, bid high on day one – we will not get it at 50 and maybe they will not get it at 160]]
This also concerns me. A number of us have discussed this on the forum, but it seems that some who bid $160 haven't chosen to lower their bids to $50 as suggested. Perhaps they don't frequent the fora and therefore haven't gotten the word.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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David Ames said:
[[am upset over Classic Commentaries and Studies on Revelation [at $160] as some, knowing that subsets are ‘worth’ over $100 each, bid high on day one – we will not get it at 50 and maybe they will not get it at 160]
In previous discussions on Community Pricing (several months ago), some posted that their strategy was to bid the maximum on any title that interested them. As we can see here, that is a self-defeating strategy.
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Jack Caviness said:
some posted that their strategy was to bid the maximum on any title that interested them
This is a rare case in which I actually follow instructions - I bid the maximum I am willing to pay for it. Sometimes but not often, this is the maximum price for the resource. It's one of those cases where I prefer to go with the mathematics of it rather than the psychology of it - I've long since discovered I'm bad at guessing the psychology of the Logos crowd (if there even is a predominate psychology).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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