Who has transitioned from L4 Windows to L4 Mac?
So here's the deal: I am a windows user considering going Mac in January, and I am trying to do my due diligence before committing to such an investment of time and money in changing platforms. There are plenty of forum debates deriding Mac or Windows, and I'm not interested in starting another thread along those lines. Instead, I'd like to hear about the experiences and counsel of anyone who has transitioned from L4 Windows to L4 Mac. So here are my questions:
- Overall, in the Logos software, how does your experience in L4 Mac compare to L4 Windows? Are the essentially the same? Or are there glaring differences, and if so, where?
- Several of the threads in the L4 Mac discussions have increased my
heartburn and reticence to make the move as they've expressed the L4 Mac being an inferior product. Has that been your experience? - What does L4 Mac do better than L4 Windows?
- What does L4 Windows do better than L4 Mac?
- Are there features in L4 Windows that you don't have and wish you did in L4 Mac?
- Would you make the transition again? Why/why not?
I look forward to gleaning great wisdom!
Karl
Karl Hanschen
Comments
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Karl - I think that you will find that you have opened a can of worms [:S], but it is better to make such a move with your eyes wide open. In my opinion, the best people to ask are the ones who use both regularly (Keep Smiling For Jesus, for example). I have never used L4 Windows, so I won't comment on that. What I will comment on is that Macs are GREAT computers and a joy to use. I switched almost 10 years ago, and I am very glad to be able to use Logos now.
Others will tell you about the differences between the programs. I will tell you that I am very happy with some of the recent improvements shown in the 4.5 beta.
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I would check the Wiki starting with the Feature Parity issues:
http://wiki.logos.com/Mac_and_PC_User_Interface_Differences#Feature_Parity
"Glaring differences" are at the point where they're in the eye of the user. For me, I've stopped using Logos as my main tool because I need the Passage List functionality currently missing. . . I've been waiting for a long time after being told "it's on the list"... so make sure there's _nothing_ on that list you actually care about!
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Mike S. said:
I've stopped using Logos as my main tool because I need the Passage List functionality currently missing
Exactly what about the Passage List are you looking for?
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Hi Karl,
I alpha and beta tested L4 Win using Parallels on a macbook pro late 2008 with 4 gigs of memory. I then beta tested L4Mac, but primarily used L4 Win. I removed L4 Win about a year ago and am very happy. I still have L4 Win on my PC at work so I can compare the programs.
I think there are several factors that allow me to use L4 Mac almost crash free: I have used Logos since the early 90s and know the program and the way it is designed; I study in an expository manner and follow a consistent work flow; I do not run a lot of syntax searches etc. To be honest L4 Mac is rock solid for me. I think that L4 Win would be a problem for many that experience L4 Mac issues due to design and how those less satisfied use the program. So I think you will be pleased with L4 Mac. i would gladly provide a few screencasts of specific tasks if you let me know what you want to see for comparison purposes.
To those that are not satisfied with L4 Mac, I have not intended to indicate: 1. you are not having problems or 2. the problems are your fault.
I think if you are an L4 Win user, except if there are non-parity issues that are documented that are important to you, you will see little if any difference.
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I moved to Mac three years ago. When Logos 4 was released I used the Windows version via a virtual machine using VMware Fusion because at that time the Mac version was still in Alpha. I was getting pretty decent performance L4 Windows on my virtual machine. After L4 Mac went "gold" started using it some, but spent more time in Windows because of the feature gap between the two. As L4 Mac began to catch up, I gradually spent more time on the Mac version. For the past 6 or so months, I was spending nearly 100% time with Mac, only using the L4 Windows to following the training videos I bought. As of last night, I removed the L4 Windows from my machine.
Karl Hanschen said:Overall, in the Logos software, how does your experience in L4 Mac compare to L4 Windows? Are the essentially the same? Or are there glaring differences, and if so, where?
From my standpoint, they are essentially the same. I know L4M haven't completely caught up with L4W, and a few of the features of L4M are not working properly; however L4M does 99.9% of what I "need" it to do. I consider myself an advanced lay user who use the software for person Bible study. If I was an advanced scholar, depending on L4M for ministry or livelihood, I may feel differently - as of now, I'm very pleased with L4M.
Karl Hanschen said:Several of the threads in the L4 Mac discussions have increased my
heartburn and reticence to make the move as they've expressed the L4 Mac being an inferior product. Has that been your experience?L4M does 99.9% of what "I" need it do. It has not completely bridged the gap between the Windows version - so technically that would make it inferior...
Karl Hanschen said:What does L4 Mac do better than L4 Windows?
What does L4 Windows do better than L4 Mac?What makes L4M better than L4W is the fact it is on a Mac platform. The thing I like most about Mac's is that I can run the machine from an external bootable clone drive and still get basically the same performance as I get from my internal hard drive. I had one internal hard drive failure - I was still able the use L4M from an external drive while I waited for a replacement internal drive to arrive. After replacing the drive, it only took 75 minutes to completely re-clone from the external drive I was using. So I didn't miss any time using L4M when my internal hard drive failed. To me, that fact alone make L4M better than L4W. LOL
Karl Hanschen said:Are there features in L4 Windows that you don't have and wish you did in L4 Mac?
At this point, I'm not missing anything about L4W.
Karl Hanschen said:Would you make the transition again? Why/why not?
Most definitely.
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15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)
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Karl Hanschen said:
Overall, in the Logos software, how does your experience in L4 Mac compare to L4 Windows? Are the essentially the same? Or are there glaring differences, and if so, where?
Logos 4 is comparable on Mac and Windows; sync with Logos servers works in both directions. Logos 4 Mac needs Feature Parity improvements.
One indication of Logos 4 Mac usability is voting for Logos User Voice Suggestions (Logos 4.5 Beta update)
# 18 => Logos 4 Mac Enhancements has 202 votes (Logos 4.5 Beta added many multi-touch gestures)
# 35 => Improve Logos 4 Mac Feature Parity with PC has 71 votes (Logos 4.5 Beta has many feature parity improvements)
# 66 => Improve Logos 4 Mac Note Positioning has 27 votes (Logos 4.5 Beta has improved Mac Note Positioning)
# 101 => Logos 4 Mac Program Scaling and Font Sliders has 13 votes (Logos 4.5 Beta added many Font Sliders)
Logos 4 Mac user voting shows Enhancements much more desired than Feature Parity. Wish Logos would change status to "started" for these suggestions since Logos 4.5 Beta has started implementing them.
Karl Hanschen said:Several of the threads in the L4 Mac discussions have increased my
heartburn and reticence to make the move as they've expressed the L4 Mac being an inferior product. Has that been your experience?Sometimes. Likewise, at times, Windows 7 ongoing maintenance has provided incentive reminder for Mac OS X. Also, Windows 7 has some quirks. On Mac, easy to teach if being prompted for password and you did not initiate software install, then do not enter password.
Karl Hanschen said:What does L4 Mac do better than L4 Windows?
On Mac, Read Aloud has 24 voices in Snow Leopard plus more free high quality voices in OS X Lion. In contrast, Windows 7 has one SAPI 5 voice (Anna); other voices are available for purchase from third party vendors. Observation: Mac OS X is easier to use than Windows for many tasks. For example, cut, copy, and paste keyboard shortcuts originated on Mac so Apple placed command key near X, C, and V keys. Microsoft cloned keyboard shortcut as Ctrl + X, C, and V (bit harder to type since Ctrl often left most key on keyboard. Wiki => Logos 4 Keyboard Shortcuts For Mac includes image of Apple keyboard.
Karl Hanschen said:What does L4 Windows do better than L4 Mac?
For Personal Book editing, Word 2010 on Windows allows hyperlinks to be URL's copied from Logos 4. Alternate syntax is only option on Mac: [[word(s) >> URL]] Newer Word 2011 on Mac is directionally challenged (lacks right to left editing of Hebrew with vowel points); suggest Mellel, Scrivener, or LibreOffice.
Karl Hanschen said:Are there features in L4 Windows that you don't have and wish you did in L4 Mac?
Yes, included in Feature Parity list.
Also, Logos User Voice Suggestion for Mac and PC => Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness is ranked # 69 with 26 votes.
Karl Hanschen said:Would you make the transition again? Why/why not?
Yes. Thankful for Logos free software that allows resources to be used on a variety of devices.
Apple has competitive pricing for many models: MacBook Air, 13" MacBook Pro, and 27" iMac (along with iPad's, iPhone's, and iPod's). Noticed refurbished July 2011 MacBook Air models available => http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/macbook_air including $ 1,099 for a 13" MacBook Air that would run Logos 4 Mac nicely => http://store.apple.com/us/product/FC965LL/A and $ 1,439 for bit faster 13" MacBook Air with 256 GB SSD => http://store.apple.com/us/product/G0ME0LL/A Top of the line 27" iMac is $ 1,869 => http://store.apple.com/us/product/FD063LL/A or $ 2,289 (with 256 SSD) => http://store.apple.com/us/product/G0M73LL/A
Using Logos 4 Mac on 27" iMac with 2,560 x 1,440 resolution is nicer than dual monitors since does not have air gap between monitors. Caveat: connecting couple 30" monitors to display over 11 million pixels may overwhelm some => http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/03/apple-imac-hands-on-with-dual-30-inch-displays-video/ (while not being enough for some Logos 4 users).
Likewise noticed refurbished July 2011 Mac Mini models => http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/mac_mini
Note: Apple refurbished models have refurbished on outside of shipping box, inside are packed like new. Also refurbished have same warranty as new along with option to return. Likewise appreciate option (if needed) for free appointment with Mac Genius in an Apple Store to diagnose hardware issues.
In contrast, Apple has premium pricing for 17" MacBook Pro; can purchase couple 2nd generation Intel Core i5 or i7 Dell XPS 17" laptops for similar amount as one refurbished 17" MacBook Pro.
Caveat: Apple Mac models tend to be used longer than PC's along with retaining value for many years. PowerMax offers used Mac's for sale => http://www.powermax.com/preowned_macs (including some PowerPC G4 models over 8 years old that are not viable for Logos 4 Mac).
Logos 4 does need an Intel processor in Mac model. Logos 4 is resource intensive on Mac & PC – benefits from fast processor, graphics, and disk along with adequate memory (i.e. newer hardware since Logos 4 being designed for use over 5 to 8 years).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I have used both Windows and Mac version. Have been so hopeful that the Mac version would be good but in all honesty it fails in so many ways. Slow, buggy, crashing I could go on. I have now switched back to the Windows version where the experience is a breath of fresh air. There seems to be something fundamentally wrong with the mac version and not being a programmer I dont know exactly what. I guess because it isnt a native mac app it dosnt work as well as programs such as Accordance.
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I ran L4 Mac and Win side by side up until L4 Mac went into full service releases. The first few service releases still had some bugs, but it keeps getting better and better.The differences where not significant enough for me to continue to tie up hard drive space and download usage to maintain both versions.
As someone pointed out, the code base and corporate experience in Mac is in it's infancy at Logos. However, as they continue to grow with the product, I believe things will improve. Keep in mind that Logos 1.1 was contracted out to third party, so even if you count this in, L4 Mac is akin to being version 2.x and in some ways with the next version (L5 Mac?) being like version 3. (though I know that isn't a completely accurate comparison). My point is L5 Mac will probably start to hum, though I have found L4 win to be completely satisfactory.
One thing that I would also like to point out is that if you are engaged in academic studies, the materials now available on Logos are stunning compared to ten years ago. The community and pre-pub prices allow you to grow your library at a cheaper price as Logo's offerings grow. There are a few that I have missed due to my money situation at the time, but mostly I have been able to snag up most of the materials important to me at a discounted rate.
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It was L4M that made me get serious about Logos and using it on the Mac as opposed to my tiny Logos 3 installation on my PC. The first few versions were just ok enough to get work done. I think we are now at the point where it's "good enough" to be a serious contender. I still find it does better on the PC, but I'm using older hardware. The newest Macs are so much better that L4M should fly. With enough RAM and a good graphics card, I think you will be pleased.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Mike S. said:
3. Full/Compact
This is fixed in 4.5. Also, when you add a new verse, the list moves to the new location.
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Mike S. said:
I've stopped using Logos as my main tool because I need the Passage List functionality currently missing
alabama24 said:Exactly what about the Passage List are you looking for?
Mike S. said:1. Headings2. Move verses under headings3. Full/Compact
Mike - You will be glad to know that all of these are added in 4.5b8
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Karl,
Like Otto, I made the migration about 3 years ago. Overall I have been very happy with the move. Asnoted by several people above, there still are differences between the two. Where I find that most apparent is notes, but I seem to be a heavier note user than Bob and his development team anticipated. If you use notes a lot, you might want to consider transitioning your notes to PBBs as an alternative, or be prepared for some frustration. Many users have been grumping about this for quite a while, and I am pretty certain that it is on somebody's to-do list somewhere. Having said that, for me personally, the notes problem is not nearly enough for me to say don't transition. I too have almost all of my needs met with L4M. The only cautionary notice you should have is if you deal with Hebrew (or other RTL languages) outside of Logos, you will need to purchase a specific word processor with that capability. Word for Mac 2011 and Pages still do not provide adequate support for RTL. There are several decent ones on the market, with Mellel being one of the best.
Also, be forewarned that a migration to Mac might precipitate a growing discontent and dissatisfaction with Windows. Over time, you may find that you need to practice patience with your fellows and friends who have not yet come to grasp the value and beauty of Apple.
-Tim
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Tim Hankins said:
Also, be forewarned that a migration to Mac might precipitate a growing discontent and dissatisfaction with Windows. Over time, you may find that you need to practice patience with your fellows and friends who have not yet come to grasp the value and beauty of Apple.
Observation: Apple Mac models are experiencing sales growth, anticipating over 5 million Macs to be sold this holiday quarter => http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/11/macbook-air-nearly-one-third-of-apple-notebooks-sales-and-rising.ars
Previous quarter had 4,894,000 Mac unit sales (primarily portables) => http://seekingalpha.com/article/303543-apple-s-unrelenting-mac-attack-on-the-pc-market (noticed double digit sales growth of Mac unit sales over past 9 quarters when comparing year over year).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Karl Hanschen said:
So here's the deal: I am a windows user considering going Mac in January, and I am trying to do my due diligence before committing to such an investment of time and money in changing platforms. There are plenty of forum debates deriding Mac or Windows, and I'm not interested in starting another thread along those lines. Instead, I'd like to hear about the experiences and counsel of anyone who has transitioned from L4 Windows to L4 Mac. So here are my questions:
- Overall, in the Logos software, how does your experience in L4 Mac compare to L4 Windows? Are the essentially the same? Or are there glaring differences, and if so, where?
- Several of the threads in the L4 Mac discussions have increased my
heartburn and reticence to make the move as they've expressed the L4 Mac being an inferior product. Has that been your experience? - What does L4 Mac do better than L4 Windows?
- What does L4 Windows do better than L4 Mac?
- Are there features in L4 Windows that you don't have and wish you did in L4 Mac?
- Would you make the transition again? Why/why not?
I look forward to gleaning great wisdom!
Karl
I use both Mac and Windows platforms. Without question my plain jane Windows desktop outperforms any of my Mac "high-end" products. I like to use my Newer Macbook Air with SSD, and I use it exclusively for L4(to try and maintain the best possible situation for L4) I like my Air because of portability... but it struggles, even with a newer processor and SSD.
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Karl Hanschen said:
What does L4 Windows do better than L4 Mac?
Update: once Logos ships stable 4.5 release, many items in wiki => Feature Parity list will be removed. Thankful for many improvements in Logos 4.5 Beta releases.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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We just recieved our two new Macs today - MBPro and a mini. They are both fully upgraded - maxed out. We are in the process of downloading Logos into both of the now. Indexing should begin within 2 hours or so.
I will report back tommorrow and let you know how it is worikng and my first impressions of Mac vs. PC.
PS: as far as the setting up,of the Macs - it was so easy one could do it blind folded. PCs have NEVER been this easy ....
Yours In Christ
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Update: once Logos ships stable 4.5 release, many items in wiki => Feature Parity list will be removed. Thankful for many improvements in Logos 4.5 Beta releases.
I must say the progress in this beta alone is amazing! A HUGE personal thank you for addressing the passage list issues.
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5 Solas said:
PS: as far as the setting up,of the Macs - it was so easy one could do it blind folded. PCs have NEVER been this easy ....
Apple's OS X also has user migration assistant so copying user documents and applications from one Mac to another is easy. User migration can include Logos 4 Mac.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Many thanks.5 Solas said:PS: as far as the setting up,of the Macs - it was so easy one could do it blind folded. PCs have NEVER been this easy ....
Apple's OS X also has user migration assistant so copying user documents and applications from one Mac to another is easy. User migration can include Logos 4 Mac.
Keep Smiling
So far with only light use:Pros:
faster than my old PC - (to be expected, but MUCH faster)
Indexing faster in Mac - 45 min compared to 2 hours in PC
No crashes (yet...)
Runs well with other application open
Cons
Lost 99 books (probably some L3 volumes)
Hebrew fonts not transferring to Word - need Mellel
Logos does not always close when selecting the red buttonSo far I am pleased. I will try to reproduce some files I did last week in the PC and see if I receive the same information ....
Yours In Christ
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5 Solas said:
Lost 99 books (probably some L3 volumes)
Option: copy resources from PC, try scanning on Mac, followed by restarting Logos 4 Mac. Wiki => Quick Installation onto Multiple Macs has some example scan commands.
5 Solas said:Hebrew fonts not transferring to Word - need Mellel
Free option is LibreOffice, which has international language option. May want to look at scrivener too.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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5 Solas said:
Logos does not always close when selecting the red button
In the Mac OS, the "red" button does not close the application like the "X" in windows does, but merely the window. Personally I use keyboard short cuts. [Command-W] closes the window; [Command-Q] quits the program.
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Thanks for the additional information. I will try some of these in the next few days - finding the 99 missing resources will be kind go tough ...
Yes I am using the shortcuts, but would rather use the red x .... but it is temperamental sometimes it closes and at other times it does not....Glad to see this was not an install problem ....
Thanks again ....
Yours In Christ
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5 Solas said:
Yes I am using the shortcuts, but would rather use the red x .... but it is temperamental sometimes it closes and at other times it does not....Glad to see this was not an install problem ....
Depends on Mac program whether closing window with red x closes program. Many programs can still be running with no open windows. In contrast on Windows, closing last window typically closes program.
Using Logos 4.5 Beta 8, learned closing "Logos Bible Software 4" window with red x does not close Logos 4 Mac program; could be useful for service to replace text in word processor. Likewise learned opening something in Logos 4 Mac causes "Logos Bible Software 4" window to reappear.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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5 Solas said:
would rather use the red x
Just to make sure you understood me previously... You can use the "red circle" button to close the window, but Logos will still be running and taking up resources. This is not a behavior of Logos, but a Mac, system wide behavior. To shut down a program, you can do one of the following:
- Click and Hold the program icon in the doc (the program bar at the bottom of your screen) and click "quit."
- While the program is active, you can click on the program menu, i.e. "Logos Bible Software 4" ("menu" is just to the right) and click "quit."
- Press Command-Q
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Well then Logos is not acting correctly. At times you can hit the RED and it does NOTHING. The screen stays in place, etc. until you use one of the options discussed above.
Yours In Christ
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5 Solas said:
Well then Logos is not acting correctly. At times you can hit the RED and it does NOTHING. The screen stays in place, etc. until you use one of the options discussed above.
My guess is that it will just take you a while to figure it out. The same thing happens to me when I try to click the "red button" on other programs. When I first switched to Mac from PC (8 years ago), I was more accustomed to clicking the button. I have since learned to use keyboard short cuts, which is often easier.
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Respectfully, I use the CMD keys. I am just testing Logos and pointing out what I consider a problem. This is the only program I presently have that does not work by pressing the RED ..... (of course the program is still running, but that is not the point). The RED is suppose to shut down that particular screen and SOMETIMES Logos does and at OTHER TIMES Logos does not. This sound like a problem, as there is no consistency in Logos' behavior.alabama24 said:5 Solas said:Well then Logos is not acting correctly. At times you can hit the RED and it does NOTHING. The screen stays in place, etc. until you use one of the options discussed above.
My guess is that it will just take you a while to figure it out. The same thing happens to me when I try to click the "red button" on other programs. When I first switched to Mac from PC (8 years ago), I was more accustomed to clicking the button. I have since learned to use keyboard short cuts, which is often easier.
Yours In Christ
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5 Solas said:
Respectfully, I use the CMD keys. I am just testing Logos and pointing out what I consider a problem. This is the only program I presently have that does not work by pressing the RED
I have not experienced this problem. If you are having difficulties, you could create a new thread with the preface "BUG:" to see if anyone else is seeing the same thing.
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5 Solas said:
Well then Logos is not acting correctly. At times you can hit the RED and it does NOTHING. The screen stays in place, etc. until you use one of the options discussed above.
Curious about Mac models and RAM ? (from helping with a MacBook Air today, know button click under track pad can sometimes be challenging to use)
Note: observed someone, who did not know about track pad button, trying to use space bar to "click" on items and wondering why "click" did not work.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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KS4J,
The Macs it has happened on are the (1) MBP 17" - 8 RAM and the (2) Mac-mini 8 RAM. It happens intermittently whether using (1) track pad, (2) maid mouse, or(3) logitech mouse. This said it did not happen all day yesterday ....
BTW, LibraOffice may be a winner. Tried it a little yesterday ... thanks.
Yours In Christ
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used BOTH on MACBookPro over last year or so. Just uninstalled PC version.
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5 Solas said:
KS4J,
The Macs it has happened on are the (1) MBP 17" - 8 RAM and the (2) Mac-mini 8 RAM. It happens intermittently whether using (1) track pad, (2) maid mouse, or(3) logitech mouse. This said it did not happen all day yesterday ....
BTW, LibraOffice may be a winner. Tried it a little yesterday ... thanks.
Hi 5 (good greeting that)
You will find the non-functioning of the red close icon is an intermittent 'feature' of Logos for Mac. In my experience it can always be overcome by a 'Quit' form the Dock Icon Menu. If you have to resort to a 'Force Quit' it is likely to be a more serious matter and it would help if you could report those instances here.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Thanks - I normally use CMD "Q" - but was just testing every button in Logos for functionality and stumbled upon this one .... not a bigger, but something that could be dealt with ...Mike Binks said:5 Solas said:KS4J,
The Macs it has happened on are the (1) MBP 17" - 8 RAM and the (2) Mac-mini 8 RAM. It happens intermittently whether using (1) track pad, (2) maid mouse, or(3) logitech mouse. This said it did not happen all day yesterday ....
BTW, LibraOffice may be a winner. Tried it a little yesterday ... thanks.
Hi 5 (good greeting that)
You will find the non-functioning of the red close icon is an intermittent 'feature' of Logos for Mac. In my experience it can always be overcome by a 'Quit' form the Dock Icon Menu. If you have to resort to a 'Force Quit' it is likely to be a more serious matter and it would help if you could report those instances here.
Yours In Christ
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