Paper books and Digital Rights

Just a thought....

I recently bought the whole set of NICOT/NICNT in hardback in the Summer from an independent bookstore. It was a good price and I was very happy with the content of the book.Of course, then in September I thought about purchasing them in Logos, but I would have to pay for the whole set again.

I do not understand why I have to buy the books twice to use them in Logos. Is there a way a publisher can sell digital rights at the same time as purchasing. Blu Ray discs are doing this with a digital copy. Anyone know if the publishing industry is heading this way. Or has anyone purchased a paper book and gotten to use digital rights with Logos?

Thank you.

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MJ. Smith

Or has anyone purchased a paper book and gotten to use digital rights with Logos?

Standard Publishing did this (and a bit more) with the ISSL series - but I don't think they still are.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313460#Comment_313460

I don't know why you would want them in dead tree, but that is just me. I think the idea is a good one, but you must remember that Logos is a "value added" service, and needs a cut.

Jerry Fourroux

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313465#Comment_313465

At the time dead trees where less expensive, and my wife could borrow them.

Her MacBook is too old to run Logos, and I was too green with Logos to see the benefit of having them.

Plus, the set looks good on a bookshelf!!

Garrett Ho

I do not understand why I have to buy the books twice to use them in Logos

Perhaps if the book companies did the work to produce their works on Logos resources, then they could give that away for free. Or, if they had an arrangement where part of the dead-tree sales went to Logos, they could bundle it together.

I understand your comparison, but it has its limitations. I think the best equivalent would be Crossway, which gives a free PDF copy of some of its books when you buy directly from them. Of course, their book prices are generally higher than Amazon.

It just seems like a mess when it comes to used books, and the digital publishing world is also much larger than Logos, so there are a lot of parties involved if you want to truly lump "digital rights" together.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313471#Comment_313471

Jerry - I wasn't meaning to criticize you... Just pointing out that if I had the choice, it would be digital. But now that you aren't so "green," you probably see the benefits too. [:)]

my wife could borrow them.

Just to let you know... If your wife is not in vocational ministry, she can "borrow" them (when you chip in to get her a new laptop - hint, hint).

Plus, the set looks good on a bookshelf!!

Always important for when you want to take that scholarly portrait. [8-|]

Ann Hudson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313475#Comment_313475

I do not understand why I have to buy the books twice to use them in Logos

Perhaps if the book companies did the work to produce their works on Logos resources, then they could give that away for free. Or, if they had an arrangement where part of the dead-tree sales went to Logos, they could bundle it together.

I understand your comparison, but it has its limitations. I think the best equivalent would be Crossway, which gives a free PDF copy of some of its books when you buy directly from them. Of course, their book prices are generally higher than Amazon.

It just seems like a mess when it comes to used books, and the digital publishing world is also much larger than Logos, so there are a lot of parties involved if you want to truly lump "digital rights" together.

Try Fortess Press book titles for a publisher. You'll find that they incorporate a Libronix CD with their paper-bound books. You'll find some of these listed with rejoice.com and Christian Book Distributors. A couple of examples:

http://rejoicesoftware.com/intro_bible.htm

http://rejoicesoftware.com/hebrew_bible.htm

Standard Publishing did the companion CD (on Libronix) with their Standard Lesson Commentary books with Logos up until 2010. Wordsearch have taken over as the companion CD suppliers for this series (now available for 2011).

As for other publishers, you'll have to visit their respective sites to see what titles are available with companion CD's. For Logos, it will not be on Logs 4 format, but libronix only. I think from memory Discovery House has one with the Works of Oswald Chambers.

I find this form of book availability very useful if I want (or need) to be away from my Logos program for a while, and away from getting 'square eyes' from looking at a screen all day! Paper books can be a restful experience.

Mark Smith

I would have to pay for the whole set again.

Most of us have done that and sometimes more than once. If you don't want the print version you can see what you can sell it for either on ebay or through a used book dealer. You might get 30-40% of what you paid for them. You might get less. The used market is pretty brutal.

Last year about this time I sold over 30 shelf feet of dead tree books for which I had Logos versions (many of the NIC volumes included). I wish I got a lot for them, but I did get enough to purchase another set of commentaries I was interested in. If not now, maybe at some point that is what you will do.

You have my sympathy but most of us who've been in ministry for awhile have bought twice. I'm just grateful I could do so.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313492#Comment_313492

I would have to pay for the whole set again.

Most of us have done that and sometimes more than once. If you don't want the print version you can see what you can sell it for either on ebay or through a used book dealer. You might get 30-40% of what you paid for them. You might get less. The used market is pretty brutal.

Last year about this time I sold over 30 shelf feet of dead tree books for which I had Logos versions (many of the NIC volumes included). I wish I got a lot for them, but I did get enough to purchase another set of commentaries I was interested in. If not now, maybe at some point that is what you will do.

You have my sympathy but most of us who've been in ministry for awhile have bought twice. I'm just grateful I could do so.

I have sold thousands of dollars in dead tree books on ebay and amazon when the digital edition comes out in Logos. I usually make up at least a portion of the price, sometimes the whole thing. I feel your pain. But the benefit to me of having it digital far outweighs the cost and I appreciate the use I had of them when I had them on my shelf.

Garrett Ho

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313485#Comment_313485

Try Fortess Press book titles for a publisher. You'll find that they incorporate a Libronix CD with their paper-bound books.

Ah, thanks for the reminder! Not only did Fortress include the disk, but if you wanted to buy the book at Logos you'd get the "dead tree" version with it. In other words, you had to buy them together. It was the same with the Works of Oswald Chambers.

As you remarked, though, this was the minority and even then Logos has shifted away from the practice.

Part of the trouble is that people might buy the physical book, install the Logos copy, and then sell the physical book (as used). If commentary sets came with a Logos unlock, I certainly would do that, and then neither Logos nor the publisher benefit as much as they could.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313471#Comment_313471

I doubt the industry will ever widely adopt selling books with companion CDs. There are a few examples cited on here, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Plus, the set looks good on a bookshelf!!

Indeed. As much as I am a big fan of electronic resources, there's something very cool about walking into your personal library/study room with rows of books on the shelf inviting you to go browse. It's not that you can't do that on your computer, I'm just sayin.

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313524#Comment_313524

The one thing about digital copies is that they last forever! However, all my books are tied to Logos software. I'd hate to think of what would happen if Logos went under as a company.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313531#Comment_313531

I'd hate to think of what would happen if Logos went under as a company.

You would still have them, but you would be locked in at that point. Eventually, computer OSs would evolve to the point where you would lose them unless you remained behind the curve digitally.

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313562#Comment_313562

I'd hate to think of what would happen if Logos went under as a company.

You would still have them, but you would be locked in at that point. Eventually, computer OSs would evolve to the point where you would lose them unless you remained behind the curve digitally.

[:|]

Paul-C

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313562#Comment_313562

You would still have them, but you would be locked in at that point. Eventually, computer OSs would evolve to the point where you would lose them unless you remained behind the curve digitally.

Then we'd each have to have a standalone computer just to run Logos - not connected to the Internet for fear of accidentally updating something - and hope it didn't die anytime soon.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313562#Comment_313562

I'd hate to think of what would happen if Logos went under as a company.

You would still have them, but you would be locked in at that point. Eventually, computer OSs would evolve to the point where you would lose them unless you remained behind the curve digitally.

Or, before Logos bid farewell, they would create a program that could read the files offline into the foreseeable future with very basic functionality.

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313575#Comment_313575

Or, before Logos bid farewell, they would create a program that could read the files offline into the foreseeable future with very basic functionality.

Chances are if Logos ever finds itself in the position where its about to kick the bucket, they won't likely have the resources to create anything new no matter how much Bob and friends might want to do so.

I feel confident they will be around for a few more years just on the current inertia of their success, but I could be wrong.

I believe, no matter how much I love Bible software, that everyone should have at least one good book commentary on every book of the Bible that they can use, loan to a church member or fellow pastor who's in need, etc. I have the NAC and a couple others that were given to me as well as some individual volumes that I bought before they were available in digital form. I never open them, but I often loan them out threatening bodily harm if not returned.

As for digital rights, I'm hollering as loud as I can with my limited influence as a Bible software pundit the we need a 21st century version of STEP drastically. The Bible software makers and publishers are not motivated to get it done because it is good for their bottom line.

We need a business model that makes sense for the profit-based "Christian" book publishers who can make money and that makes sense for the Bible software publishers who do some work making the digital formats of the books work in their program.

The problem - some of the software can quickly create a digital version of books by running it through a converter. It works and doesn't take much time. Others, like Logos, et. al. actually do some intensive marking up of files. I have a friend that does this work with another software vendor. It takes time and they must pay these great people to do their work so that when there's a footnote in your book that refers to another book in your library, it will become a link. Even if you can automate this, it has to be proofed and corrected until the technology becomes full proof, which is unlikely to happen. This is why these premium programs work better than the lesser expensive or free versions that are converted but don't add tags and markups to the books.

The model I've proposed is a ditial right to the book purchased. Then I can pay a fee to the software company for the version in their format. Spam warning - you will be reading about this in my next CCMAg column (the Jan issue so not really next since the Dec. isn't out yet).

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313577#Comment_313577

I agree with Kevin (and the Laridian guy, if I'm not mistaken). There's two problems with digital books. One is they require operable software (meaning they depend on a 'live' software company). And two, the software itself needs to be 'usable' to the target user (some loving complicated software, others simple, thus the choice for multiple software vendors and handling licenses).

Zondervan's Pradis was a good lesson; presumably for difficult financial reasons they were bought out, and not only didn't let the book rights move with the user-owner but similarly didn't convert the book format. And so Pradis users could 'stick' with the existing software and hope for the best, or re-purchase.

On 'sticking with the existing software', this last week I've moved Libronix onto a 64bit computer and it's interesting just how 'shaky' the process actually is. If you're a 'Dave' or a 'Smiling for Jesus' kind of guy, probably no problem. But if you're an average user, it's actually hard to even remember the ins/outs of the software itself, much less the new system that doesn't like it. And you don't get to 'call Logos' (forums being the only avenue).

Logos4 itself is somewhat of a mystery, since it's not clear just how stable the display layer is (near-term obsolescence) and to my knowledge, Logos has not explained exactly where a customer's licenses are in the event of their failure (the repeated comment being 'buy an installation disk' as if you're going to do that each time you buy a resource, as you used to).

So, Keven's concerns in my mind are absolutely critical. It's one thing to say that you can 'survive'. It's another to shrug your shoulders at other users who don't have your talents and knowledgability. Is there a place for even caring?

Jerry Fourroux

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313588#Comment_313588

Thank you everyone for responding. I go back and forth every day in December about whether to repurchase it. I do have cause to pause before I go nuts for the December sale.

But I did invest in some AGES Software that is PDF back in 1999 and I cannot seem to get it on my computer.

But Logos has just plain improved since I bought Van Til's library in 2000. I think in terms of leadership and innovation they have proven to be quality.

Mike Childs

I do not understand why I have to buy the books twice to use them in Logos. Is there a way a publisher can sell digital rights at the same time as purchasing.

There have been a few books sold with a Logos cd version included in the past. That would certainly be attractive to me.

However, it does seem to me that a paper book and a digital book are two separate things. I would not expect one to automaticlly give me the right to the other. I would consider it a nice bonus if it did.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313524#Comment_313524

I doubt the industry will ever widely adopt selling books with companion CDs. There are a few examples cited on here, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

If you are a student of history, you would observe that consumer ultimately wins:

people wanted an iPhone on a network other than ATT and they got it (first with jailbreaking, that became legal after the fact, later, because of market forces)
consumers wanted to BUY individual tracks of songs...
consumers wanted DRM-free MP3 and they got them
as someone mentioned in a post above - Blu-Ray discs now come with a digital copy because people wanted to watch movies on their phones, computers, tablets, etc
consumers wanted to borrow and lend electronic books and they got this ability.

All of the above was a display of market force that consumers have by virtue of PAYING for resources others produce

I think all of the indignation, sarcasm and judgement over customers desiring to have something should be directed inward, so we have OURSELVES to blame for paying full price (bragging about paying over retail because it is more convenient is absurd, it is definitely not more spiritual. Paying full price is only justifiable when something is not a commodity. Books, unfortunately, are).

I applaud Bob Pritchett' conviction for "pay once, read everywhere" strategy. However it is not just innovative, it is the ONLY way to survive. LOGOS does add value in terms of indexing and inter-connectedness of resources, but not because they are digital.

Jerry Fourroux

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313622#Comment_313622

I have repurchased many books on Kindle and in Logos including several copies of the NIV, but the NICOT/NICNT is a big purchase, much bigger.

I think that resources for study and reference to be more flexible with digital rights, and example would be the Trinity Hymnal, Book of Common Worship (PCUSA), and The Worship Sourcebook (CRC) all come with PDF for ease and flexibility. It is similar to how Logos let's us use our library on iOS and Android. They could easily charge us as being three different echo systems.

However, it is illegal to convert a DRM on a Kindle to use as a Personal Book on Logos, so the rights issue that is a bit hazy.

At the end of the day, I will probably purchase both, but I am glad to help out a small bookstore locally in the purchase of the hardbacks.

Garrett Ho

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313629#Comment_313629

It is similar to how Logos let's us use our library on iOS and Android.

Actually, it is very different. It isn't the ecosystem that is the determining factor so much as the company licensing (or producing) the product. To have companies provide the versions they produced for free whenever a paper-copy is purchased offers no (or very little) value for their work (of production and distribution) unless they are compensated. This is also vastly different from a single company making their work available on multiple platforms.

The problem is that there are no good comparisons. We could compare to MS, Adobe, and many other companies that charge for cross-platform licenses to their software (generally). But that is different because of the work they put in to develop on those platforms, whereas a digital book needs no additional development (and Logos graciously makes the software free, now).

So in the end, if you really want to talk to someone, consider talking to the publisher. Ask them to release the PDF, or negotiate with their digital distributers. Logos gets a lot of heat and disappointment because we have such high expectations of them, and they're more available for dialogue than the publishers. But, like in the Zondervan case, it is the publishers that are the bottleneck.

Garrett Ho

I do not understand why I have to buy the books twice to use them in Logos. Is there a way a publisher can sell digital rights at the same time as purchasing.

Jerry, sorry that I haven't done a good job of answering your original question. I got distracted. I think the answer is that the publisher can, if he arranges it.

Hopefully we'll see it happen in our lifetime. It'll likely happen with Vyrso, Kindle, and other ebooks first, where there is no (or little) added mark-up. But it can happen. Perhaps publishers might even make specific titles available on multiple platforms (bundled), but I think it has to come from the publisher when they negotiate the licensing agreement.

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313698#Comment_313698

I think if any of the big name Bible software companies will survive and adapt it will be Logos. I pray to one day see "Logos 7". However, this thread has made me do some thinking. It's a scary thought that my investment is tied to Logos success. I want to be able to pass my digital books down to my kids when I am older.

Matthew C Jones

Is there a way a publisher can sell digital rights at the same time as purchasing. Blu Ray discs are doing this with a digital copy. Anyone know if the publishing industry is heading this way. Or has anyone purchased a paper book and gotten to use digital rights with Logos?

Yes, a publisher can markey whatever they have the rights to. The standard model seems to separate digital from hardcopy. But Fortress Press has a history of bundling Libronix CDs with their paper versions of theology books. I went on a buying spree of their paperback versions just to get them in Logos.

Once upon a time you got the paperback text along with the CD when you bought them from Logos.com but this resulted in a shipping charge for the book. I have since discovered the CD has been separated from the paperback and imagine it has a separate license from the original bundled set. I understand how nice it is to hold an actual book in your hands but the space, dusting and organizing of a conventional library is something I never want to deal with again.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313698#Comment_313698

Perhaps publishers might even make specific titles available on multiple platforms (bundled)

I think the consuming public was accidentally snookered in the beginning by the lack of foresight of everyone. If it had been handled in the best interest of end-users none of us would have had to pay multiple times for copyrighted material we originally bought from Zondervan, QuickVerse, WordSearch, or any one of the hundreds of publishers. Every time the format changed we had to pay for the same content in the new format.

Logos is one of the first to secure the license to access the content across platforms and devices. (Bob Pritchett is so forward-looking!) I can read my content on iOS, Mac OS, Windows & Android. If Logos is ever able to run on Linux, your license will allow you to move your resources there, too.) I understand WordSearch resources can run on the Mac with an emulator front-end What would have been ideal from the beginning is if Baker would license the rights for NICOT/NICNT to an end-user and the end-user could purchase for a much lower fee to read that content in any of the formats the content was subsequently published in. But as it stands now, you must purchase an expensive NICOT/NICNT license to run under Logos, another to run under WordSearch, another to run under Accordance, and so on. (According to the Accordance website, it is the copyright holder's insistence to charge the full license fee to users who may already have a content license in another format.) At least Zondervan users got some kind of a discount moving from Pradis to Logos.