Why do I have to re-buy a book that I already own?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313487#Comment_313487

The problem is that if the Bible was from one of the "Big 4" (Zondervan, Nelson, B&H, Tyndale), as well as many of the smaller houses, and it was any type of leather, they really would send you a new one.

A tradition that Logos cheerfully keeps. They send me a new copy of all my books and Bibles every time I get a new computer [:D]

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313496#Comment_313496

My dealer is willing to give me a new car to replace my old one, isn't that wonderful? I just have to pay for it. [:D]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313496#Comment_313496

Well the fun making fun of others would certainly work if anyone actually owned the Logos books. The laughter continues as long as Bob is happy and healthy.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313505#Comment_313505

I've spent countless thousands on automobiles that I no longer own, ROI = negligible

I've spent thousands on computers that I no longer own, ROI = 0

I've spent thousands on food, clothing, heat, electricity, cable, internet, etc..., ROI = life

I've spent thousands on Logos resources, and if they were gone tomorrow, ROI = priceless

If I purchased every Logos resource, it would pale in comparison to monies that I have wasted.

There is no true investment in this world, Logos is but a tool, a means to an end, like myself a momentary vapor :

“Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.”

Mike Childs

As always very profound, Paul. And very true.

Isn't it a blessing that Logos has made our libraries so freely available on our cell phones, iPads, and whatever? It is very generous, and it greatly increases the value of my Logos library to me. In fact, many resources that would be practically useless to me otherwise (since I would not read them on a computer) have become very valuable.

I would think it is very good business practice for Logos because I now buy resources to read on my iPad that I would not buy otherwise. That is also good for the publishers. And it is very good for the customer.

I appreciate this very much. Thanks!

Jerry Fourroux

So a year ago I bought a brand new hard cover copy of a book that I like, and I keep it in my study.

But now I want a copy to use somewhere else, and can you believe that the book store expects me to pay for the exact same book all over again!

Apologies for the sarcasm, just tired of re-reading the same complaint over and over...

Well, I am new to Logos 4 so I had never heard the complaint before. I do not appreciate being mocked.

But now I want a copy to use somewhere else, and can you believe that the book store expects me to pay for the exact same book all over again!

This is where your argument loses logically because you consider only one side of the transaction: sellers. But in reality it is a symbiotic relationship. Buyers need sellers and sellers need buyers even more! Because of the latter statement, consumers always have an upper hand, because they make the final decision to buy or walk away. Consider that Toyota makes MUCH more money than Rolls-Royce company, even if their prices are cheaper. So if publishers exist for the purpose of making money (and not just for bragging rights that they have such-n-such title), it is in their best financial interest to sell as many copies as they can at cheaper prices than they are now.

Making fun or be sarcastic about expectation of the buyer to want to only pay once for the same information is illogical. Consumer can want anything he/she wants. Publisher has a right to want to be paid whatever it wants. But it is up to the consumer if the transaction actually takes place. It is like making fun of a guy who only wants to be charged once for his crime (double jeopardy law). Fortunately, our criminal system recognizes this truth. Unfortunately, shortsighted publishers (and their avid advocates on this forum) don't recognize market forces. But they will. Eventually.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313483#Comment_313483

1 Timothy 5:18

The Bible says (in KJV) 1 Timothy 5:18 The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Of course, the labourer is worthy of his reward! Authors need to be adequately paid for their hard work of creating a book. Publishers need to be adequately paid for printing a dead tree book. Digital publishers need to be adequately paid for digitizing content, tagging, adding interactive bells and whistles, etc. Notice the operative word "adequately". How much? Well, this is THE question. Both buyer and the seller need to agree on the price. If seller wants too much, the buyer votes with his feet and seller goes home hungry. Authors might not get to write another book.

The bigger argument is not about stealing a book. And the Scripture really does not apply. (you really should have found a scripture on entitlement mentality, but we'll leave it for another rant). A dead-tree book has already been purchased, which satisfied the demands of Scripture in question, and constituted the basis of "First Sale" doctrine. You should check it out. If I bought a dead-tree book, I satisfied all claims of the author/publisher to his labor. I don't own the words or concepts of the work, but I do own the medium. I cannot legally copy another's work and start selling it, but I can sell my copy to recoup my cost (I don't think anyone will dispute the legitimacy of that). I am also allowed under Fair Use to make a copy of it in it's entirety to protect it from deterioration in my personal use.

But let's talk about a real scenario, shall we? Having purchased a dead-tree book, a consumer then wants a digital version of the same book. Should he get it for free? I don't believe so! Because labor was expended to produce a convenient way to enjoy this book, a digital publisher should get paid some. But what is adequate? It is laughable to be expected to pay the same OR MORE for the electronic book as for the paper equivalent, because less work went into producing, managing, storing, securing, delivering a digital file versus a physical book. So the same question: "how much?" This is up to the consumer to decide (we also call it supply and demand forces). Current rip-off is only perpetuated by "spiritual" consumers that are glad to pay full retail for less work that someone did (in comparison to creating that work in the first place. Even in case of Anchor Yale Bible digitizing, tagging, etc, it did not take nearly as much time and labor to produce the digital copy as the original resource). How do you call that? I call it enabling. And setting a bad precedent.

Going back to discussing Logos software. Logos is in the precarious position. It is between the rock (consumers who want various resources and features) and a hard place (publishers that own rights to such resources). It does really well by making commodity titles special, but it's real sell is going to be providing real value to customers in terms of operation of their software. They have wonderful vision, their products are improving every day, but they have not "arrived" yet.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313665#Comment_313665

I call it enabling.

Eh, I just call it supply and demand. Logos supplies a product that I am willing to pay for. Call me names if you want for being generally satisfied with my return on investment, but don't call me late for lunch. (oops, I am late for lunch...Later...)

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313610#Comment_313610

Jerry .... my introduction to the Logos forums a couple of years back was similar: surprise. I was used to the technical forums where folks jousted back and forth within a thread, sometimes getting a little carried away.

But here (and maybe other forums), when someone wants to take a point to 'the next level', they bounce out of the thread, start another one with a sarcastic title. Others knowingly or not, then join in the fun.

Surprisingly it's often with new folks with ideas, or a person that is trying hard to solve a software problem.

It's something you see with the school kids at times too.

Jerry Fourroux

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313677#Comment_313677

Thank you, Denise for the heads up![:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313677#Comment_313677

It's something you see with the school kids at times too.

perhaps Logos should carry a book on 'netiquette' with a chapter on 'forum graces'. I, of course, would need to read and reflect on this potential book and chapter.

In fact,

to go ahead and hijack the thread, what are some helpful thoughts/tips/suggestions/guidance/wisdom that you would think should be in such a book?

I'll go first.

* I've found, when frustrated with interactions on message boards, if I either close my browser and walk away from my computer for a spell, my outlook changes.

* When I find myself motivated to respond negatively to someone, its therapeutic to type a response out, proof read it, then delete it!

Dean J

taking advice to heart - DELETE [:)]

Garrett Ho

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313685#Comment_313685

Not for any individual, but a general reminder:

Col. 4:6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313685#Comment_313685

Sorry for the sarcasm, I'm just getting tired of reading the same mean-spiritedness on here whenever anyone offers an opinion they don't like.

I appreciate your taking my second tip to heart Dean, but you pressed the POST button by mistake instead of the DELETE button. (whoops!) keep trying! [pi]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313692#Comment_313692

Mr Newsome ... you really have a cute child! These days will always be precious (along with your humor, of course).

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313692#Comment_313692

I appreciate your taking my second tip to heart Dean, but you pressed the POST button by mistake instead of the DELETE button. (whoops!) keep trying!

You got me Paul - how'd I do?

[Y]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313643#Comment_313643

It is like making fun of a guy who only wants to be charged once for his crime (double jeopardy law)

Not really applicable to the copyright issues but you can be charged multiple times for the same crime. If you get charged under state law and acquitted, the Feds can charge you for the same crime under a different statute.

But in reality it is a symbiotic relationship

Yes, it is. And I really like having it that way. Imagine for a moment if Logos offered absolutely everything they publish for a flat fee of $500. All other Bible software companies would go bankrupt, Then when Walmart, oops, I mean Logos is the only one left standing, they raise their prices to half of today's current prices. We would all still be benefactors but would it be all that wonderful? (Personally, I would love it but most people want choices. It is a pride thing.)
The reality we live in is:

We are finite beings in time, space, abilities, potential or any other measure we concoct.
Nothing of material nature has any lasting value
We can't "own" anything in life.
Even our philosophies, economics, sensibilities and value systems fail us.
Without a blessed hope in Jesus Christ we are nothing more than a flock of wounded ducks walking down the road to nowhere.

Meanwhile guys & gals, we have a 12 Days of Logos Sale & Logos Credit promo going on. And don't forget those Daily Deals on Twitter.[:D]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313709#Comment_313709

Awesome Dean! I shall censure myself for not ridding my previous post of mischief.

Denise - I learn more about speaking from my son (8 mo. in 6 days!) than I do from most. As with most babies, they look past your words and base judgement off inflection and expression. A great tool to remind me that my words and tone should match ...still learning!

(he also spits up when he's really mad)

Donald G. Fisher

I won't mention the albums, then cassettes, then CD's of the same stuff that I have bought over the years. I think I just might wait until technology is all done advancing.

Blessings from Maine,

Don

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313665#Comment_313665

Current rip-off is only perpetuated by "spiritual" consumers that are glad to pay full retail for less work that someone did (in comparison to creating that work in the first place.

Not so. The on-going "Twilight" craze has the secular world paying $20+ for just about anything with Edwardo (or whatever the stupid vampire's name is.[6] ) The beauty of free enterprise & supply & demand is prices are determined by both the producer and the consumer. Monopolies and price controls are both evil. To tell an employer the minimum or maximum wages he must pay goes against the principles of the Parable of the Vineyard Workers in Matthew 20:1-16 "Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money?" The same goes with Logos and the copyright holders. They can charge whatever they want and we can buy it, or not. When I start buying software with your money then I will give you veto privileges over the order submission. But at the end of the day when the king is in the counting house, counting out his money, all the king has is money. I would rather be in my thatched roof house diving into deep and rewarding Bible studies.

their products are improving every day, but they have not "arrived" yet.

It is not everyone's liberty to wait for the product to "arrive." In the 1990's users had to settle for Logos version 1.6, Gramcord, Godspeed, MacBible, BibleWorks 4.0 and other rough embodiments of today's finer honed programs. While you and I are here (momentarily) many of the users from those days never lived to see Logos 4, BibleWorks 9, or Accordance. While you may have the luxury of waiting on the release of Logos version 12 and the $.99 resource pricing, I may not. "My kingdom for a horse!" It is only money.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313610#Comment_313610

Well, I am new to Logos 4 so I had never heard the complaint before. I do not appreciate being mocked.

Like I said, I apologize for the sarcasm, the comment was not directed at you.

Please accept my apologies for any personal offense.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313809#Comment_313809

OK, so this is my thread (thank you Logos for granting me the privilege to post on your servers), and I'm climbing on my soap box right now.

Everyone who knows me, knows how I feel about capitalism, and person property rights. If you don't, here it is in a nutshell:

I have absolutely no right to tell anyone what personal/intellectual property they can or can not sell, and what it should cost.

If I want it I buy it, if I don't I walk away quietly.

That being said the post was aimed at those who have been around here since the beginning (and those who were around way back when we needed to post on the newsgroups), and how frustrating it is to hear over the years the same complaint.

It was solely meant as a bit of humor between those who would understand.

But I am a benevolent dictator when it comes to my threads, so if anyone wants to reply in any way they see fit, please feel free (but do not blame me for any ire you may cause among others)

Climbing down now, thanks for your time

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313814#Comment_313814

But I am a benevolent dictator...

I can always appreciate this!

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313809#Comment_313809

Well, I am new to Logos 4 so I had never heard the complaint before. I do not appreciate being mocked.
Like I said, I apologize for the sarcasm, the comment was not directed at you.Please accept my apologies for any personal offense.

I am sorry too if Jerry felt it was directed at him. (I wouldn't have any idea if he had not made a connection....Is there a connection? )

Anyhow, I would hate to lose the satire, sarcasm and critiquing we enjoy in the lively banter of these forums. What little I read of the newsgroups, I think the forums are more civil, overall.

[:-*] really Jerry, when you get upset, it makes it look like you think it actually does apply to you. [;)] The best defense then is to totally ignore that mean-spirited Paul Golder.[6]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313825#Comment_313825

really Jerry, when you get upset, it makes it look like you think it actually does apply to you. The best defense then is to totally ignore that mean-spirited Paul Golder.

Hey! I resemble that remark! [:D]

Is there a connection?

The point in Jerry's post is a good one, although I think that book publishers are moving in an opposite direction of the movie studios. Whereas the movie makers realize that folks can just rip the DVD's to their devices, book publishers have come to find out that most will pay for a second digital copy of a book. ("ripping" a shelf full of books would take a lot of typing)

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313825#Comment_313825

What little I read of the newsgroups, I think the forums are more civil, overall.

The forums definitely are more civil, even with the few trolls who periodically appear here. Some of us have mellowed considerably from our previous way of posting [:$]

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313941#Comment_313941

What little I read of the newsgroups, I think the forums are more civil, overall.

The forums definitely are more civil, even with the few trolls who periodically appear here. Some of us have mellowed considerably from our previous way of posting

Jack, please, don't talk about ........ that way.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313951#Comment_313951

What little I read of the newsgroups, I think the forums are more civil, overall.

The forums definitely are more civil, even with the few trolls who periodically appear here. Some of us have mellowed considerably from our previous way of posting

Jack, please, don't talk about ........ that way.

Actually, I was thinking of myself during the newsgroup days, hence the red face. [8-|]

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313965#Comment_313965

Well, confession is good for the soul. Keep going. Did you confess how you took .... candy from him as a child? [:D]

Jerry Fourroux

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313973#Comment_313973

Thanks for the apology, just not familiar with Logos forum practice yet.

Let's keep the lampooning to the MVP's because the new people do not understand. [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/313814#Comment_313814

If I want it I buy it, if I don't I walk away quietly.

where is fun in that? In most of the world cultures it is considered an insult NOT to bargain. I am not saying be offensive or unkind, but why not let your voice heard (by the seller). "You have not because you ask not" applies not only in respect to our Heavenly Father, but to market in general.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/314037#Comment_314037

If I want it I buy it, if I don't I walk away quietly.

where is fun in that? In most of the world cultures it is considered an insult NOT to bargain. I am not saying be offensive or unkind, but why not let your voice heard (by the seller). "You have not because you ask not" applies not only in respect to our Heavenly Father, but to market in general.

I'm not saying I don't bicker, I love when a salesman leaves a conversation with me feeling like he or she has just been through a battle. Which is why I make my big Logos purchases from a salesperson. But if I can't get the price I want on something, I don't complain, I just consider it done.