Missing: PB with support for auto-parsing Bible references in non-English text

In an email a while back Bob Pritchett replied to my inquiry about
support for auto-parsing Bible references in non-English text:

Our
translation efforts in v3 where random and "as requested", which is why
some languages are incomplete and we don't have full support.
In v4
we want to be more focused, and only translate into languages we can
offer full support for. So we're starting with Spanish, German, and
Portuguese, based on our partnerships in those areas.
We don't have a
full-fledged Russian strategy yet, but I'll add you to my file and let
you know when we're ready to look at that. (The key isn't just interface
translation, but the ability to offer a variety of resources and tools,
as well as support, in the language.) Russian's high on the list, but
we have a few other languages to work on first.
When we release PBB tools for v4, though, they'll be fully multi-lingual.

I
just want to say that I appreciate what Logos is doing for it's users.
We got PB in L4. For FREE!!! Personal Books are First-class citizens!
Logos is also trying to make Bibles available in L4 in every language
they are available in print. I am grateful for the continued desire to
make Logos available to users around the world.

However, I see a double standard between foreign language support
and the overall Logos 4 release strategy - release early and incomplete
and add things as we go.

What better way to gather international
grass-roots support for L4 than by allowing pastors, teachers, etc to
create and share their books, sermons, Bible translations, etc. I don't
think Logos is big enough to do everything on it's own. Plus, who
decides what languages should go first? I am not attacking your choice
of German, and Sweedish first, but...

According to my research,

Most Common Languages:

Total Chinese: Native Speakers 1 146 755 000    Including second language speakers 1 343 755 000
English 341 000 000   508 000 000
Hindi (Hindustani) 366 000 000    487 000 000
Spanish 358 000 000     417 000 000
Arabic 280 000 000       NA
Russian 167 000 000    277 000 000
Bengali    207 000 000   211 000 000
German    121 000 000    128 000 000
Japanese   125 000 000     126 000 000
French   77 000 000     128 000 000 - 200,000,000
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/most_spoken_languages.htm,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers

http://www.krysstal.com/spoken.html

If It was me, I would be concentrating on Chinese, Hindi and Arabic
languages, since they are in the most need of the Gospel and christian
resources.

But the point is, waiting xyz years, till Logos has enough resources,
tools and "full support" even in some obscure language that was already
"supported" in Libronix is ridiculous.

Let it be clumsy. Let it be "scarcely supported" if only by native
speakers on the forum, let us build up a library of free resources and
create active Logos4 community among foreign language speakers, and then
publishers will be more likely to provide their resources through Logos
platform.

The reality is that we (international users) can create/ manage and
support our own site/forum/depository for foreign language resources.

The bigger question is whether LOGOS wants to relinquish control, or
desires to capitalize (I don't have a problem with that) on each
resource that is produced.

It was stated before about plans to create a Store for L4 PBs. I am
looking forward to see a well thought out pricing and distribution
strategy for PBs.

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Comments

MJ. Smith

One issue that has arisen in the creation of the PB Bible translation is the versification. It would be helpful if Logos provided a way for producers of PB Bibles to submit an appropriate versification table (just differences from a current mapping) and a list of abbreviations of Biblical books as accepted by major journals.

There are some things where Logos should not try to do it all but rather support user generated efforts or even contract with appropriate users.

MJ. Smith

I was just checking the number of languages in which Logos could support the Bible and found:

"The complete Bible has been translated into only 450 world
languages. Out of all the languages of Russia (other than
Russian) only the Chuvash and Tyva languages are included
in that number."

Dave Hooton

However, I see a double standard between foreign language support
and the overall Logos 4 release strategy - release early and incomplete
and add things as we go.

That can be seen with support for bible datatypes (versification schemes) other than Spanish, German and Portugese in this table; which includes 3 Russian types.

Whilst this isn't auto=parsing can Russian be recognised as labels e.g. [[Russian 14:29 >> bible+rmnt.62.14.29]] [[@bible.62.14.29]] where you substitute Russian for Mark 14:29 (in Russian Modern New Testament) whilst using the numeric book names at http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Bible_Book_Names

toughski

Whilst this isn't auto=parsing can Russian be recognised as labels e.g. [[Russian 14:29 >> bible+rmnt.62.14.29]] [[@bible.62.14.29]] where you substitute Russian for Mark 14:29 (in Russian Modern New Testament) whilst using the numeric book names at http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Bible_Book_Names

this was the FIRST time I got any reference to work. But one has to do a ton of manual tagging and I can't even think how or if it would be possible to semi-automate this for an average resource. I can't wait till we can have auto-parsing.8357.Марк 14.docx

NB.Mick

I am not attacking your choice
of German, and Sweedish first, but...

Toughski,

just to clarify: Bob talked about intentions back then, not about the actual delivery. I presume this was the time when the German Bible Society was still pursuing SESB 4 which was thought to include a full localization into the German language. Bob did not talk about Swedish, but somehow these guys got a foot into the door (all the better for them).

Meanwhile the German Bible Society have retracted their SESB 4 plans, have not even an announced intent to go for it, much less a plan - they don't even monitor the SESB forum or answer to people such as Theolobias or myself who expressed our willingness to volunteer in the testing of such a localization.

Geramn Bible references are not recognized in PBs (and - while I don't do beta right now - I have not read anything on the beta forum that this has changed in any way). So to the best of my knowledge, German right now is as far developed as Klingon or Quetchua - no need for jealousy.

On another note, there are different levels of language suppport (I think we had this before?).

The most basic one would be to be able to display text in this language - this is very reasy for all latin-script languages (just a little above English for all the diagraphic marks like Umlauts, Danish o, Polish L etc), a bit more challenging for kyrillic and other such alphabets and most difficult for the Asian languages with large speaker populations but very small amounts of potential Logos resources besides the Bible. Since Greek falls into the second and Hebrew nearly into the third category, that task may be nearly fully completed on Windows or Mac (less so on the mobile platforms). This level allows the production of Logos resources by Logos and of PBs without automatic links.
The next level of language support would be to automatically recognize Scripture references (and potentially other such metadata). This allows us to build PBs in this language and - I assume - makes the Logos tagging process more efficient. We know from Tonya that they work on this - it seems to be "just" the transport of existing tables from L3-supported languages. They did support for Czech to this level. I'm waiting for German here and I do hope there will be fast progress in this area.
Full support means localization of the software UI. This allows the vast numbers of Chinese and Arabic speakers to use the software without being distracted/frustrated by English language. It is complex (even for latin script), needs lots of testing, tweaking and bug-fixing and thus could profit strongly from partnership with local organizations as well as community input. Most software never gets localized. L3 was, and L4 is into two languages besides English - thus there is experience and a lot to start from. I'd advise Logos to start a project, either give it its own forum section and go for it in some languages (I can only volunteer for German) or run it through the normal beta, if feasible.

Mick

Kevin Becker

I can't even think how or if it would be possible to semi-automate this for an average resource. I can't wait till we can have auto-parsing.

I don't know why auto parsing has to wait for full versions of the Logos UI to be rolled out. It obviously worked in Libronix. Why not add some sort of syntax to the PB engine that you could put a tag at the beginning of the docx file that tells it to use different abbreviation recognition than the UI language?

I imagine Word macros could be used to add the manual tag, but it would be a lot of work to anticipate everything you would need to...

fgh

It would be helpful if Logos provided a way for producers of PB Bibles to submit an appropriate versification table (just differences from a current mapping) and a list of abbreviations of Biblical books as accepted by major journals.

[Y]

I was just checking the number of languages in which Logos could support the Bible and found:

"The complete Bible has been translated into only 450 world languages."

Wikipedia: "Bible translations have been made into 2,572+ languages, one of the two Testaments in 1,668 languages, and the full Protestant Canon of the Bible in 457 languages as of May 2011".

When it comes to what you and I would consider a "complete" Bible, it's probably somewhat less...[:D]

Why not add some sort of syntax to the PB engine that you could put a tag at the beginning of the docx file that tells it to use different abbreviation recognition than the UI language?

When we compile a PB we add metadata -- including language. Isn't that supposed to be that "tag"?

Dave Hooton

When we compile a PB we add metadata -- including language. Isn't that supposed to be that "tag"?

I suspect that is just for metadata purposes. The language used by Word (Set Language) should direct the PB compiler.

Bob Pritchett

I don't know why auto parsing has to wait for full versions of the Logos UI to be rolled out. It obviously worked in Libronix.

We completely rebuilt the "Bible data type" in Logos 4, and the reference parser is now much more sophisticated and powerful, but now requires more careful customization and testing in each language.

I'll look into this and see what we can do to speed it up.

Dave Hooton

When we compile a PB we add metadata -- including language. Isn't that supposed to be that "tag"?

I suspect that is just for metadata purposes.

It sets the Languages tag and Logos set that as Greek for a Greek-English lexicon!