How long does it normally take for a book to leave "Under Development" status?
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Publishers are sometimes hard to deal with, i know of some items that were listed under pre pub for years only to completely vanish from the logo system. Now I can only assume that the resource I was thinking of was removed by the publisher. This is a very frustrating thing, but until the moment something ships there is always the chance that publishers will have second thoughts. One great example is the Anchor reference Library, Logos had it already for release in October 2010 I believe, but someone new came along at Yale and the going over the contract ended up caused the release to be delayed by over 6 months. And this from a publisher already distributing theirs anchor dictionary and Anchor Bible series, (although to be fair the dictionary was done through Double Day NOT Yale who years later purchased the series rights). I am just hoping that when the New Interpreter's Bible finally makes it under contract, things can go more smoothly.
-dan
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I think part of why we get an unreasonable expectation of the speed at which something will be produced once it is advertised is that Logos has a rather unique pre-pub program. They offer us a vastly discounted price in exchange for some uncertainty about whether the product will even ever make it into production and when. It should be considered a win-win situation. Logos gets to gauge user interest and sign up enough interested buyers before expending the money and time to produce a work, and we get a great deal.
That pre-pub model worked better back in the days when Logos was the only game in town for digital books. They were still a relatively novelty, and it's pretty amazing that they've had them for so many years before Kindle came along, and with way more features than Kindle books have. But now that the big boys are in on it too, and they've got more clout with publishers, more money, more employees, they can crank these things out before we get our next credit card statement. So they can offer pre-pubs that they are certain will be produced, and they know precisely when. We are comparing Logos to that, and they cannot match our expectations. I hope for Logos's sake they can continue to compete in the new world. Being first to market with a new product concept doesn't necessarily guarantee anything anymore.
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I understand your arguments, Rosie - but: I don't think they really apply to what we're talking about here.
1. The PrePub resources I mentioned have already made it into production - the one I mentioned in my first post has been under development for almost a year now -, they just aren't ready for shipping yet.
2. Even though Logos resources are more valuable than Kindle ebooks because they are fully tagged etc., I'm still paying 16.95 USD for "What Have They Done with Jesus?" in PrePub (!), whereas I could have it for 9.37 USD as Kindle edition and for 5.98 USD as print edition. I'm willing to pay this for the extra value - but let's be honest: That's almost twice resp. three times the price for a resource that has been available on Amazon since October 2009 as Kindle edition and since October 2007 as print edition. It still is a deal I'm willing to make - but it certainly isn't great.
With this in mind, my two main points still remain:
1. I want Logos to do a better job when it comes to making contracts with publishers everyone can rely on. And if this is really so hard to achieve, I
2. at least want to be informed by Logos in a much better way. This is my money I'm willing to give to Logos, and this is my time I'm doing my studies in (well, ultimately, it's God's money and God's time - but you know what I mean ...). I could have really used these resources several times now but always decided to wait until Logos is ready to ship them - I just don't have the kind of money that would allow me to buy every title both in print and for Logos. This is why I do not want to be kept in the dark by Logos all the time and why I do not want to write emails and posts like this all the time just to learn that I will just have to be more patient. To say it even more clearly: This has something to do with respect for the customer as a human being as opposed to just an opportunity for making money. I know Logos doesn't see their customers that way, but that's how I feel treated when I'm told to just be patient over and over again for something that I'm willing to invest in and for something that Logos actively advertises.
"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de
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Theolobias said:
I understand your arguments, Rosie - but: I don't think they really apply to what we're talking about here.
I think my second paragraph does apply to what you're talking about. Nobody ever had this issue with Logos pre-pubs before Amazon.com came along with Kindle books, but you're not the only one now. Logos pre-pubs were always viewed as an elite and exciting program to be part of and nobody cared how long they took because there was no other alternative. Now that we are beginning to see how fast the turnaround could be and how cheap they could be, we have something to compare it to and are disappointed with Logos.
Logos can't compete with the likes of Amazon.com. You are disappointed with Logos, with good reason. I can't offer you any hope that it will be different. I'm sorry. I feel badly for Logos. I think they're up against a tough wall. Your railing at the situation isn't likely to make it any better. I suggest you go ahead and buy the book from Amazon.com and vote with your wallet and stop griping here. You're only going to drive more customers away from Logos. Maybe that's what you want to do, though, which is surely your prerogative. But it actually would not help Logos to produce their books faster. More customers would help.
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Theolobias said:
1. The PrePub resources I mentioned have already made it into production - the one I mentioned in my first post has been under development for almost a year now -, they just aren't ready for shipping yet.
Have they really? Perhaps there is a misunderstanding regarding what "Under Development" means in Logos-speak. Perhaps it simply means that it is approved for production rather than actually being developed.
Theolobias said:I want Logos to do a better job when it comes to making contracts with publishers everyone can rely on. And if this is really so hard to achieve,
If, and I reapeat "if", "Under Development" signifies "approved for production, part of the development process could then be the inking of contracts to allow for its production. If that is the case, the "hang-up" could reside in that stage of the process. Perhaps "Under Development" needs to be changed to "Approved for Development" with "Under Development" being reserved for when staff actually begins to develop the resource.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
inking of contracts
You think they still use ink for their contracts? [:)] I'm sure they're all done digitally these days.
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Rosie Perera said:George Somsel said:
inking of contracts
You think they still use ink for their contracts?
I'm sure they're all done digitally these days.Of course they use ink—e-ink.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Rosie Perera said:
Logos pre-pubs were always viewed as an elite and exciting program to be part of and nobody cared how long they took because there was no other alternative.
Well, if I had ordered these PrePubs at a time when there were no Kindle editions, I still would've had to figure out whether I was willing to wait for this long or just buy the book as print edition.
Rosie Perera said:Your railing at the situation isn't likely to make it any better.
Is demanding to get a little more information from Logos for things I am willing to pay for really asked too much? I don't think so. Other companies manage to do so, so should Logos.
Rosie Perera said:I suggest you go ahead and buy the book from Amazon.com and vote with your wallet and stop griping here. You're only going to drive more customers away from Logos. Maybe that's what you want to do, though, which is surely your prerogative.
Are you serious? If yes, then I have to be very clear on this, Rosie: I find you saying this really offensive and harmful. I think I was very specific on what I'm asking of Logos, and I was also very clear that I appreciate Logos for what it has to offer. There's absolutely no need to assume a hidden agenda. For where I stand financially, I spent a lot of money for Logos products, so I think that I have some right to share my mind on things that I think could be done better. We certainly have different opinions here, but I'm really trying to get your point and deal with your arguments in a reasonable way. There's no need to covertly tell me to shut up just because you don't share my opinion. Stop it.
George Somsel said:Perhaps it simply means that it is approved for production rather than actually being developed.
Even if so, it wouldn't change much for the customer, would it? I still would want to be informed in a better way and I still would ask contracts and internal routines to be reviewed when it takes this long. I already mentioned why.
"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de
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Theolobias said:Rosie Perera said:
I suggest you go ahead and buy the book from Amazon.com and vote with your wallet and stop griping here. You're only going to drive more customers away from Logos. Maybe that's what you want to do, though, which is surely your prerogative.
Are you serious? If yes, then I have to be very clear on this, Rosie: I find you saying this really offensive and harmful. I think I was very specific on what I'm asking of Logos, and I was also very clear that I appreciate Logos for what it has to offer. There's absolutely no need to assume a hidden agenda. For where I stand financially, I spent a lot of money for Logos products, so I think that I have some right to share my mind on things that I think could be done better. We certainly have different opinions here, but I'm really trying to get your point and deal with your arguments in a reasonable way. There's no need to covertly tell me to shut up just because you don't share my opinion. Stop it.
Dear Theolobias, I'm very sorry for offending you. I just meant I don't think they can do any better. I think they're doing the best they can. I'm happy to have you sharing your views here, and while I actually share them, I'm not as worried about it because I haven't even got enough time already to read all the pre-pubs that are being released frequently.
I'm feeling for your frustration, just trying to help you see that is isn't likely to get any better. First, I don't think the Logos employees read the General forum much. And second, Logos has been told about this problem repeatedly and they always say back to us that it's out of their control. So I think you're really just going to end up getting more frustrated the more you talk about it here. I'm not trying to get you to shut up. Far from it. So I'm really sorry if it came across that way. Just trying to help you be less frustrated. Buying from Amazon is a real option if you can't wait any longer for the book, though I know you would prefer not to, and for that I'm happy. I wasn't meaning to be offensive by telling you to go away elsewhere. I just hear you saying you are really quite desperate for this particular book. And unfortunately I don't think you're likely to get satisfaction on it in the very near future from Logos, sad to say. I'm good friends with Logos management, and of course I don't want to hurt them by driving you to buy one book elsewhere, but in this one case it might be your better choice. Maybe for other books you aren't in as much of a rush.
I also suggest maybe you formulate some of what you've said here into a letter directly to Logos (Bob Pritchett and/or his brother Dan who is in charge of marketing). It's more likely to have an audience with the people who might be able to do something about your frustration. I'm very sorry that we fellow users can only attempt to ameliorate your frustration by giving you other alternatives, but we (and in this case I alone) seem to have only added to your frustration. Again I say, I'm very sorry. Please know I meant no harm. I won't do it again.
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Theolobias said:
Even if so, it wouldn't change much for the customer, would it? I still would want to be informed in a better way and I still would ask contracts and internal routines to be reviewed when it takes this long. I already mentioned why.
Of course it would change for the customer. The customer would be absolutely clear regarding the stage of production. Perhaps the customer might still wish for a quicker production, but he would not be expecting that the release could be any day now.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Dear Rosie, thank you for explaining to me what it really was that you wanted to say!
I got stuck with your perception that my intended goal was to drive customers away from Logos, which is far from the truth, indeed. I really think that the things I criticize are suitable to drive customers away from Logos, and I wanted to make Logos aware of that - to make things better for both customers and for Logos. I still think that Logos is by far the best bible software program out there and keep on advertising it here in Germany - which, by the way, might be a hint for another reason I reacted to your post the way I did: English just isn't my native language, so this might have contributed to me misunderstanding you.
My frustration might also result from several unanswered emails I wrote regarding this issue to Sales and Customer Service, weeks before I brought it up here again. But I will consider writing to Bob or Dan Pritchett - thanks for the advice!
Thank you also for apologizing - now that you explained, I understand your point, and there is no harm left! [:)] [B] (I would add a 'shaking hands'-smiley, but I can't find one - so I'll just have a beer on reconciliation!)
"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de
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George Somsel said:Theolobias said:
Even if so, it wouldn't change much for the customer, would it? I still would want to be informed in a better way and I still would ask contracts and internal routines to be reviewed when it takes this long. I already mentioned why.
Of course it would change for the customer. The customer would be absolutely clear regarding the stage of production. Perhaps the customer might still wish for a quicker production, but he would not be expecting that the release could be any day now.
I think we've been talking past each other, George. I was thinking you suggested to simply change the title "Under Development" to "Approved for Production" without a following status or without giving further information on how long it might take for the product to ship. That, in my opinion, wouldn't change things for customers. My idea was simply for Logos to be more clear on what they are doing right now with a resource and, if possible, informing customers in case it might take significantly longer for a product to produce and finally ship than usually.
But, as I already mentioned, I will take it under consideration to write to Bob or Dan Pritchett - I guess things are said and done here. [:)]
"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de
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Theolobias said:
Thank you also for apologizing - now that you explained, I understand your point, and there is no harm left!
(I would add a 'shaking hands'-smiley, but I can't find one - so I'll just have a beer on reconciliation!)Thanks. I accept your apology. I'll pretend to drink the virtual beer with you. Since I don't really like real beer, virtual beer is more palatable anyway. [:)]
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Rosie Perera said:
Since I don't really like real beer, virtual beer is more palatable anyway.
Well, given the range of beer that is common in Northern America, I'm not surprised you don't like it! [;)] That's just one of several good reasons to pay the motherland of reformation a visit - or at least some of the neighbour contries like Czechia, where you get a lot of different beer varieties that actually deserve the name "beer"! [:D]
"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de
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Theolobias said:Rosie Perera said:
Since I don't really like real beer, virtual beer is more palatable anyway.
Well, given the range of beer that is common in Northern America, I'm not surprised you don't like it!
That's just one of several good reasons to pay the motherland of reformation a visit - or at least some of the neighbour contries like Czechia, where you get a lot of different beer varieties that actually deserve the name "beer"! 
I've actually tasted some quality beers in Europe, and excellent microbrews in North America that even expert tasters from Europe have approved of, but I still don't like any of it. It's the bitters in it that don't sit well with me. People have tried to win me over for years, but it doesn't work. I'll stick with wine and sweet liqueurs, thanks. And I probably shouldn't admit it too loudly on these forums, as no doubt there are some who think it's all of the devil.
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Rosie Perera said:
I'll stick with wine and sweet liqueurs, thanks.
That's fine for me, too!
Rosie Perera said:And I probably shouldn't admit it too loudly on these forums, as no doubt there are some who think it's all of the devil.
I'll say it with Larry Norman: "Why should the devil have all the good music alcohol?" [;)]
"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de
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Rosie Perera said:
And I probably shouldn't admit it too loudly on these forums, as no doubt there are some who think it's all of the devil.
Which brings us back to Logos. What query would you construct to determine why God created fermenting agents?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Rosie Perera said:
And I probably shouldn't admit it too loudly on these forums, as no doubt there are some who think it's all of the devil.
Which brings us back to Logos. What query would you construct to determine why God created fermenting agents?
“You cause the grass to grow for the cattle, and plants for people to use, to bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the human heart, oil to make the face shine, and bread to strengthen the human heart.” (Psalm 104:14–15, NRSV)
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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MJ. Smith said:Rosie Perera said:
And I probably shouldn't admit it too loudly on these forums, as no doubt there are some who think it's all of the devil.
Which brings us back to Logos. What query would you construct to determine why God created fermenting agents?
Bible search for wine stomach finds some verses, including 1 Timothy 5:23 while a search for create wine finds Sirach 31:27
Bible search for strong drink finds many more verses to ponder. Another search is wine mock.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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