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The protocol of Note taking

EDUARDO JIMENEZ

"Are we rising again?" "No. On the contrary." "Are we descending?"
"Worse than that, captain! we are falling!" Jules Verne, THE MYSTERIOUS ISLAND

When a child (and now!) have you ever felt, in a trip, that the car goes backward not forward? I feel like this reading what you have to do in L4 to take a simple note. Worse than that, we got lost! This sense came to me, reading "Place Highlighting Notes in Book Specific Note Files", from Morris Proctor.

All you have to do is create a note file, name it with the resource you want to highlight, and that's it. So --continues Morris-- if you’re reading another book such as Concise Theology by J. I. Packer, create a Note File for it. And so on... Another book? Another note... infinite...

Why make it so difficult? It's almost a rite! You MUST followup the protocol, (a Britain one!)...

I just want (without a plan), take some notes and file them wherever I want, just with a right-click. Make it fine, make it easy.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

Wonder if this post was intended for Suggestions forum ?

Can vote and/or comment on Logos User Voice suggestion => Highlighting and Notes Integration Improvements

Keep Smiling [:)]

Jack Caviness

All you have to do is create a note file, name it with the resource you want to highlight, and that's it. So --continues Morris-- if you’re reading another book such as Concise Theology by J. I. Packer, create a Note File for it. And so on... Another book? Another note... infinite...

Wow! With 5600 resources, think of the clutter in the File Menu [+o(]

EDUARDO JIMENEZ

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346929#Comment_346929

Wonder if this post was intended for Suggestions forum ?

Yes, I fulfilled that rite too! [:|]

Just let me vent, KS!

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346934#Comment_346934

Just let me vent, KS!

Apologies [:$]

Personally still struggling with how to use Highlighting and Notes in Logos 4.5 that has improvements (yet has unfulfilled potential); already have a cluttered File menu. Wishing for bit more in Right Click menu (e.g. add to "Remove Annotation" so can "Edit Annotation") instead of needing to open note file to find Annotation to modify.

Looking forward to Logos facilitating Note document sharing.

Keep Smiling [:)]

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346932#Comment_346932

All you have to do is create a note file, name it with the resource you want to highlight, and that's it. So --continues Morris-- if you’re reading another book such as Concise Theology by J. I. Packer, create a Note File for it. And so on... Another book? Another note... infinite...

Wow! With 5600 resources, think of the clutter in the File Menu

What's even more: should you happen to have two or more resources open simultaneously (what audacious idea!) Morris' idea to send highlights and notes to the last opened note file will utterly fail.

Actually, if the intended use of this really was one note file per resource - and after all, Mo is the officially endorsed Logos trainer - then (so my naive reasoning goes) isn't repetitive idiotic tasks to be applied diligently to a multitude of like occurences exactly what computers were invented for - to take care of by themselves and transparent to us users?

This "best practice" is worse than the one file per palette idea they wanted to sell us first.

If the design of the new notes feature means: one note file per resource, then Logos needs to automatically (let me repeat that for clarification: AUTOMATICALLY !!!) generate the note file and send all notes and highlights in a resource automatically to the corresponding note file, opening and closing it with the resource without us ever worrying about the file menu (did I already mention I expect such things to happen by itself, in the background, transparent and without requiring me to even start thinking about it, like I had a computer software program doing this - sort of - automatically)? Then there would be another one for bible referenced notes. And Logos could combine or split them in the background to achieve "rightsizing" in terms of optimum performance.

Right now, I use one "untitled notes" file for notes, and one file for highlights.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346945#Comment_346945

I don't know what the hoopla is over. If you don't want to make book specific note files, don't. Personally, this is my preferred method. I generally associate my highlights with the book that its in. Once Logos starts allowing users to share note files, I will want to share my highlights per book. This is a method that allows you to do that.

Again, I don't know what the hoopla is over. If you don't like the note file thing, the solution is simple:

Create a new note file (or use an old one)
For each pallet you want to use, tell the pallet to send all notes to that note file.

By the way NB - I personally would want note files tied to each book, behind the scenes (as you suggest). The proliferation of note files heightens the need for a reworking of file management within Logos.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346982#Comment_346982

I don't know what the hoopla is over.

It's simple enough to read Morris Proctor and say "What works for you doesn't work for me." and go on doing things in a way useful to me. I personally like to arrange notes to support considering the interaction between books ... or , less often, by topic. Before the PB was released I did odd things like "one note file = one personal book". That's as close to MP's suggestion that I have found useful.[:)]

EDUARDO JIMENEZ

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346982#Comment_346982

If you don't want to make book specific note files, don't.

The point is not "this" method or the other one. The point is that it is the only method. ¡Es que solo a mi me pasa! Hasn't happened to you that just want to highlight or add a note, and...wait, wait, wait, follow the protocol. You MUST first create a file, and... It's like a leak sir!

If this doesn't bother you, good for you... but don't tell me that there's something better that a right-click option...

Want a note file per chapter? Go ahead. By book, series? fine!

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347012#Comment_347012

The point is not "this" method or the other one. The point is that it is the only method. ¡Es que solo a mi me pasa! Hasn't happened to you that just want to highlight or add a note, and...wait, wait, wait, follow the protocol. You MUST first create a file, and... It's like a leak sir!

Ah, I see that you read the blog much differently than I. If I'd read it as you did, I'd have a similar reaction.

Beloved Amodeo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346982#Comment_346982

For each pallet you want to use, tell the pallet to send all notes to that note file.

Alabama,

You alerted me to a solution to a problem I was whining about in Steve Clark's Tip on Highlighting/Palettes. Grateful

-Beloved

Martin Folley

I too share your frustration !

I cannot get my head around the number of palettes and note files to be created ....

One for each resource, and maybe one for each topic, and then one for each book in the bible etc.

When I am highlighting a particular passage in say Romans, is it because I am studying Romans, or studying Grace? Which set of highlights should I use? I can understand the need to put the notes somewhere, and I am beginning to see their power (having discovered an infinite number of highlights for which I cannot remember the reason!) ... it is not always where the notes are stored but if we can collate them again later ... Why can we not tag the notes in the same way as we can tag clippings?

As to the creating a file every time ... arrrrgh! ... I prefix all my notes with H so that I know they are from a highlighter palette ... it almost deserves a new file type ... note files, clipping files and now highlight files ... where the highlight files are auto generated. You can then move or copy (drag or menu) the individual highlight entries (and their tags [;)]) to either notes files or clippings files.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347023#Comment_347023

You MUST first create a file,

As to the creating a file every time ... arrrrgh!

No you don't! You don't have to ever create a new note file, let alone create a new one every time. If your desire is to be in blissful ignorance, than Logos allows you to do that. By default a note file is created with the name of the palette. You never have to create a note file. You never have to think about it unless you want to. Of course, I think that you should think about it.

There is one thing that I agree with strongly in this thread. I personally think that the default should be for Logos to create a new note file, associated with the specific resource, which is hidden behind the scenes so that the user never has to think about it, but which can be opened in the future upon the user's desire.

Let me explain why I think the way I do about highlights:

Most of the time, my highlights are not intended to be notes. They are just an aid to help me reading. They also help me when I revisit the resource because I can skim the book by reading the highlights and understand the gist of the book. To me, highlighting is almost always conceptually tied to the book, not a theme (and certainly not a color pallet!).
If you start worrying about highlights in terms of "Am I studying 'Romans' or 'Grace.'" You will lose your mind (like you are worried about)
Bob has told us that note/highlight sharing will became a reality in the not-too-distant future. I can see the usefulness of sharing highlights tied to a book, but I certainly see little benefit to sharing an unorganized "Highlighter Pens," pallet-driven note file.
Thematic note files DO have a place for me… as "note - note" files (rather than "highlighter - note files").

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347012#Comment_347012

Hasn't happened to you that just want to highlight or add a note

Roger - If I understand you correctly, you want to highlight without having to think about where the highlight is going, is that right? If so, Do the following:

Create a new note file called "My Highlights" (or whatever you prefer)
Open up your highlighting panel, as seen in the first screen shot.
Click on the circle/arrow to the right of a pallet name (i.e. "inductive," as seen in the screen shot)
This opens a menu as seen in the second screen shot
Click on "Save In" as I have shown by the yellow highlight.
Click on "My Highlights" (or whatever you called the note file in step 1)
Repeat for every highlighting pallet you ever intend to use.
For kicks, you can assign keyboard shortcuts to highlighters (i.e. "Y" for Yellow)

If you follow these steps, every highlight will ALWAYS go directly into your "My Highlights" note file without you ever thinking about it again. If you add the keyboard shortcuts, you don't even have to have the highlighting panel open… you can just select text and press "Y" to get yellow highlighting. [:)]

Rustamania

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347044#Comment_347044

There is one thing that I agree with strongly in this thread. I personally think that the default should be for Logos to create a new note file, associated with the specific resource, which is hidden behind the scenes so that the user never has to think about it, but which can be opened in the future upon the user's desire.

The above is what I want. Allow me to tie a resource to a note file so that I don't have to make sure I have used the correct note file recently. It seems like a given that this should be part of notes/highlight. I am figuring out notes/highlighting, but it does feel a little clunky with too many clicks. I am however, thankful for what it does allow me to do.

jason

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347067#Comment_347067

There is one thing that I agree with strongly in this thread. I personally think that the default should be for Logos to create a new note file, associated with the specific resource, which is hidden behind the scenes so that the user never has to think about it, but which can be opened in the future upon the user's desire.

The above is what I want. Allow me to tie a resource to a note file so that I don't have to make sure I have used the correct note file recently. It seems like a given that this should be part of notes/highlight. I am figuring out notes/highlighting, but it does feel a little clunky with too many clicks. I am however, thankful for what it does allow me to do.

AGREED!!! [Y][Y][Y]

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347067#Comment_347067

Allow me to tie a resource to a note file

Agreed as long as I can tie more than one resource to a note file. I cannot imagine the clutter in the File Menu if each resource has its own note file. The thing is a dreadful mess now. Please, Logos, don't make it any worse.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347076#Comment_347076

Agreed as long as I can tie more than one resource to a note file.

How is what I described above not what you are asking for? You can do that now!

I cannot imagine the clutter in the File Menu if each resource has its own note file. The thing is a dreadful mess now. Please, Logos, don't make it any worse.

The proposal I suggested above makes everything "behind the scenes" until you need to get to it. In other words, each resource would have a note file. By default, highlights would go directly there. This would require a reworking of file management, but that needs to be done anyway. [:)]

Martin Folley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347044#Comment_347044

By default a note file is created with the name of the palette.

True .. but creating a brand new palette implies then having to create several new styles; this is time consuming, even if the styles are duplicated in another palette and moved into the new palette ...

The easiest way is to simply duplicate the entire palette. The duplicated palette can then be renamed but is still linked to the old notes file. A new notes file is not created with the duplicated name, and is not renamed when the palette is renamed. I find it quicker to duplicate a palette, create a new notes file, and then link the two rather creating new styles or copy styles one at a time.

There is one thing that I agree with strongly in this thread. I personally think that the default should be for Logos to create a new note file, associated with the specific resource, which is hidden behind the scenes so that the user never has to think about it, but which can be opened in the future upon the user's desire.

This would be good... one palette ... where the destination is set by the resource and not the palette ...

... still want tagging though [:P] [:D]

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/346945#Comment_346945

What's even more: should you happen to have two or more resources open simultaneously (what audacious idea!) Morris' idea to send highlights and notes to the last opened note file will utterly fail.

Not to talk of if you have the audacious idea of wanting to have your highlights in a separate file from your notes -- you know, like it's been until now. Then, every time you want to apply a highlight, you can bet that the last thing you did was to attach a note, so the highlight will end up in the wrong file. [:'(]

Agreed as long as I can tie more than one resource to a note file.

How is what I described above not what you are asking for? You can do that now!

I'm not Jack, but assuming he thinks like I do: "more than one resource" ≠ all resources.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347155#Comment_347155

I'm not Jack, but assuming he thinks like I do: "more than one resource" ≠ all resources.

If I am understanding the theme of this thread, the issue is individuals not wanting to have to think about where their notes go. My suggestion was to accomplish that goal. As I also explained, my other suggestion would be a further improvement. If a user wants to "tie more than one resource to a note file," that is a bit more complicated. Do you have any suggestions for how you would accomplish this either with the current system or with changes by Logos?

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347182#Comment_347182

If I am understanding the theme of this thread, the issue is individuals not wanting to have to think about where their notes go.

Well that's easy: Use one file for notes, period (this will probably not do for people who want their note organized per book, per project, per whatever or have a high number of notes).

Use one file - potentially another one - for highlights. Works like it used to in ye olden days some weeks ago. By now I have a note file for highlights that's about 4,000 entries long and growing.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347213#Comment_347213

Use one file - potentially another one - for highlights. Works like it used to in ye olden days some weeks ago. By now I have a note file for highlights that's about 4,000 entries long and growing.

That is what I explained how to do in THIS POST.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347155#Comment_347155

Agreed as long as I can tie more than one resource to a note file.

How is what I described above not what you are asking for? You can do that now!

I'm not Jack, but assuming he thinks like I do: "more than one resource" ≠ all resources.

He does think like you do—on this issue at least [8-|]

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347099#Comment_347099

I cannot imagine the clutter in the File Menu if each resource has its own note file. The thing is a dreadful mess now. Please, Logos, don't make it any worse.

The proposal I suggested above makes everything "behind the scenes" until you need to get to it. In other words, each resource would have a note file.

Good luck on finding that one note file among the 5600 other note files. Your system is only viable for a couple hundred resources. After that, it become incredibly cluttered. We need file management to make the File menu less cluttered, not even more tangled.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347240#Comment_347240

Good luck on finding that one note file among the 5600 other note files.

As I wrote before:

This would require a reworking of file management, but that needs to be done anyway.

If my system were implemented, most users would never touch those note files because:

The proposal I suggested above makes everything "behind the scenes" until you need to get to it.

Actually, let me expand my thoughts a little further. Most of us have never thought of "highlights as notes." As it is now, we have two "kinds" of note files: "Highlight-notes" and "Note-notes." I would propose getting rid of "Highlight-notes" from the user's sight. The changes in "Note-notes" allows for text to be highlighted without a "note indicator." From the end users perspective, this is identical to regular highlighting. Why not have "Highlight-notes" tied directly to the resource itself, completely behind the scenes except upon the user's desire (for sharing or highlight management purposes)? I think having two kinds of note files is more confusing than it needs to be.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347243#Comment_347243

Actually, let me expand my thoughts a little further. Most of us have never thought of "highlights as notes." As it is now, we have two "kinds" of note files: "Highlight-notes" and "Note-notes." I would propose getting rid of "Highlight-notes" from the user's sight. The changes in "Note-notes" allows for text to be highlighted without a "note indicator." From the end users perspective, this is identical to regular highlighting. Why not have "Highlight-notes" tied directly to the resource itself, completely behind the scenes except upon the user's desire (for sharing or highlight management purposes)? I think having two kinds of note files is more confusing than it needs to be.

I agree. The purpose of combining highlights and notes was to facilitate highlight sharing between people (still just a promise) and to allow highlights to be shared with mobile devices. If I don't plan to share them with anyone, I don't see any reason to see them, organize them, or send them to a certain file, rather than another. I just don't care.

If I were to share my highlights with others (and who wouldn't want to know what's important to me, after all [yes that was sarcastic]), then I would want to restrict highlights on a per book basis. Since I don't plan to do share my highlights, I don't care where they go, and if I never saw them in my file list, I'd never miss them.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347263#Comment_347263

All this note filing and juggling has got me hurling to make a note file pb just to keep them straight. HHmmm maybe I need to create a note file index just to index the index of mega-note files that I have.

Personally, I gave this all up. But I did create an Index that gave index to the docx file that has/have the note file, and maybe someday when the PBB is properly implemented into L5 I might form a book that has the meta-data-hyperlink-headwords pointing right to them and opens them.

But then the highlighting may get discombobulated due to all the linkage that it has to sort through, because what used to take about 10-20 seconds to open has now become 10-20 minutes.

But all-in-all some good points were made and some are even considerable enough to play with and see if manipulation can produce something that can be productively useful.

It does have a sense of protocol for taking notes to a higher level, forget the cloud lets shoot for the stars……….

Now here's an interesting thought:

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/46707.aspx why can't the note-file-title-link be put in this here box - so brief that it is a basically a link to the DOCX-INDEX FILE that resides outside of L3/4/5 and can only be shared is the proprieter allows or desires.--->/? It never makes it to the 'cloud' and stays so far below the stars that should anything happen to Logos HQ, your notes are still in tact with enough information that they can still be used outside of L3/4/5--->/?

EDUARDO JIMENEZ

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347263#Comment_347263

The purpose of combining highlights and notes was to facilitate highlight sharing between people (still just a promise) and to allow highlights to be shared with mobile devices. If I don't plan to share them with anyone, I don't see any reason to see them, organize them, or send them to a certain file, rather than another. I just don't care.

If I were to share my highlights with others (and who wouldn't want to know what's important to me, after all [yes that was sarcastic]), then I would want to restrict highlights on a per book basis. Since I don't plan to do share my highlights, I don't care where they go, and if I never saw them in my file list, I'd never miss them.

Not sure.

The art behind the note taking must be that the user has the ability to deal independently with each file:

a) The notes file.
b) The highlighting/notes file.
c) The file notes attached to each resource (proposed functionality in this tread [Y]).

Additionally, the user must be in the ability to interact between these files, after all, are related tasks. For example, from the hightlight file / notes I can go to the resource, but not on the contrary, just in the notes files. This is a limitation. But from a note I can go to a resource and from the resource go to the note as well.

Another thing to consider is that the notes are a temporary expedient in the study process. Every note, clipping and highlighting, must go, at least in a permanent archive, properly classified, or, ideally in a PB.

Right now almost all of the above can be done only with a very high degree of complexity. That's why I said "protocol" in notes taking. Many "clicks" a lot of concentration not to send a highlighted text of a book by Chesterton to a Bible atlas. [:|]

This is what I say. [:D]

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347795#Comment_347795

Right now almost all of the above can be done only with a very high degree of complexity.

[Y]

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347795#Comment_347795

Another thing to consider is that the notes are a temporary expedient in the study processI disagree. My notes are my permanent location. I use notes for holding information about scripture. I have several note files that hold my hymnal information (which hymn uses/refers to what scripture verses. I have several note files that have lectionary information (prayer of the day, colors, etc...) and how they relate to scripture. I do not want to open a PB to hunt to find this information.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347240#Comment_347240

Good luck on finding that one note file among the 5600 other note files. Your system is only viable for a couple hundred resources. After that, it become incredibly cluttered. We need file management to make the File menu less cluttered, not even more tangled.

This is something I suggested about two years ago. I think the ability to create file folders and sub-folders would be the best (and easiest) way to manage the menu. Unfortunately it does not appear that will happen any time in the near future.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347847#Comment_347847

Good luck on finding that one note file among the 5600 other note files. Your system is only viable for a couple hundred resources. After that, it become incredibly cluttered. We need file management to make the File menu less cluttered, not even more tangled.

This is something I suggested about two years ago. I think the ability to create file folders and sub-folders would be the best (and easiest) way to manage the menu. Unfortunately it does not appear that will happen any time in the near future.

I only have a hundred note files or so, plus some clippings, plus some sentence diagram, and I have a very difficult time finding what I need via the file menu.

EDUARDO JIMENEZ

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347842#Comment_347842

I disagree. My notes are my permanent location.

[:D]

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347240#Comment_347240

I cannot imagine the clutter in the File Menu if each resource has its own note file. The thing is a dreadful mess now. Please, Logos, don't make it any worse.

Good luck on finding that one note file among the 5600 other note files. Your system is only viable for a couple hundred resources. After that, it become incredibly cluttered. We need file management to make the File menu less cluttered, not even more tangled.

I don't believe the system must be complicated at all. Please, let me show you:

Upon Logos install, it automatically creates a notefile for each resource (it can be named the same as the resource or a computer generated nonsense, it really does not matter - this file is not going to appear among the user-created notefiles as per File menu)

you make many notes and highlights and then wonder, where is my awesome notefile? ... Drum roll please...

there would be a link provided to it in the "Resource information" page:

if someone wants to access it (to share highlights, notes, rename the file, make it "visible" in the File menu, whatever) they can, but it is sufficiently "behind the scenes" and automatic to the user, that a person, who does not care about sharing, etc. can just use the darn program - no right-clicks, no having to do anything before highlighting a resource,...

I think LOGOS' biggest problem is that they don't have a paradigm for the functions they program. Another way of saying it - they don't USE their software.

LOGOS, could you provide a step-by-step workflow of notetaking from a point of view of a pastor, who has to prepare at least 3 messages per week? How about a seminary student, who has 6 separate courses per semester and who wants to share his notes/highlights with professors/peers?

I might share my notes, highlights, clippings, etc. in the future, but for now I went to the only workflow that is easy and makes sense - having a single notefile for all my Bible notes (anything that is tied to a biblical word or a biblical reference goes here), a single notefile for highlighting/annotating my other books (if you think about it, this fulfills the same function as Clippings. <rant> Why in the world LOGOS made half-a-dozen similar filetypes, that all fulfill the same function - annotation? Combine Clippings, notes, highlights, Sentence diagrams, timelines, passage lists, etc, into ONE, allow us to tag it, insert images, tables, a kitchen sink and a rocket engine and watch it soar! </rant> and a couple special purpose notefiles.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347902#Comment_347902

I think I just wrote the biggest run-on sentence in the history of this forum. To the grammar-police out there, I apologize in advance.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347847#Comment_347847

Good luck on finding that one note file among the 5600 other note files. Your system is only viable for a couple hundred resources. After that, it become incredibly cluttered. We need file management to make the File menu less cluttered, not even more tangled.

This is something I suggested about two years ago. I think the ability to create file folders and sub-folders would be the best (and easiest) way to manage the menu. Unfortunately it does not appear that will happen any time in the near future.

Much needed improvement. It is hard to conceive of a less desirable mess that the current File Menu.

I only have a hundred note files or so, plus some clippings, plus some sentence diagram, and I have a very difficult time finding what I need via the file menu.

And it can only get worse as time goes by.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347902#Comment_347902

there would be a link provided to it in the "Resource information" page:

Interesting. That has promise.

Another way of saying it - they don't USE their software.

You may have identified one source of the problem.

LOGOS, could you provide a step-by-step workflow of notetaking from a point of view of a pastor, who has to prepare at least 3 messages per week? How about a seminary student, who has 6 separate courses per semester and who wants to share his notes/highlights with professors/peers?

[Y]

I think I just wrote the biggest run-on sentence in the history of this forum. To the grammar-police out there, I apologize in advance.

Then, you are to be congratulated. That is a demonstration of real talent [:D]

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347902#Comment_347902

I think LOGOS' biggest problem is that they don't have a paradigm for the functions they program. Another way of saying it - they don't USE their software.
LOGOS, could you provide a step-by-step workflow of notetaking from a point of view of a pastor, who has to prepare at least 3 messages per week? How about a seminary student, who has 6 separate courses per semester and who wants to share his notes/highlights with professors/peers?

I think the issue comes from the fact that they do not do the needed research of asking their users how they use their software when they are designing the workflow of their program.

I would say that they should not ask one pastor/seminary student; they should ask five to ten, and they should ask five to ten of different faith backgrounds. Speaking as a person who is not part of the "evangelical" flavor of Christianity, the software's workflow does not work that well.

<rant> Why in the world LOGOS made half-a-dozen similar filetypes, that all fulfill the same function - annotation? Combine Clippings, notes, highlights, Sentence diagrams, timelines, passage lists, etc, into ONE, allow us to tag it, insert images, tables, a kitchen sink and a rocket engine and watch it soar! </rant>

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I do not know how many times that I have said the same thing. Not only would it make easier for us, it would also simply Logo's time and money because it would the number of subsystems that they have to maintain.

Brother Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347924#Comment_347924

LOGOS, could you provide a step-by-step workflow of notetaking from a point of view of a pastor, who has to prepare at least 3 messages per week? How about a seminary student, who has 6 separate courses per semester and who wants to share his notes/highlights with professors/peers?

[Y] YES! Insert some sanity!! YESYESYES!!! [Y]

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347902#Comment_347902

Upon Logos install, it automatically creates a notefile for each resource

Oh, please don't do that. I don't need nor want a note file for every volume of a series, every papyrus, every Perseus entry. I don't work with notes that way, and wouldn't want to. If I take notes beyond Bible text, they are usually very brief notes and are organized by subject (never by resource).

A better option (IMHO) would be to allow for the creation of a notefile on the spot via the right-click menu.

I think LOGOS' biggest problem is that they don't have a paradigm for the functions they program. Another way of saying it - they don't USE their software.

That might be your impression, but it's not true. They do use their own program and have said so on these forums (sorry, too lazy to go searching for the posts this Monday morning).

LOGOS, could you provide a step-by-step workflow of notetaking from a point of view of a pastor, who has to prepare at least 3 messages per week?

I'm a pastor who prepares messages and Bible studies and does occasional research on topics related to my work. I tend to do expository preaching and teaching. When I take notes in Logos they are almost always textual notes (based on translation, contextual, thematic, or stylistic issues, and are almost always less than 5 lines of text in the note file). In depth studies and sermon writing I do on two monitors with Logos open in one and Word in the other. I store those studies in a unique folder in MyDocuments. Occassionally I import them into Logos as PBB's. I don't use clippings, and haven't even tried them for over a year. If I were writing a research paper, I might look into them more.

I've been using Logos since version 1.6 and have adapted my work-flow to how Logos works. So, I guess I wouldn't be a good candidate for what you want to study, since I've adapted to Logos (and never considered trying to get Logos to adapt to me), and aside from getting the sermon file add-in and the NIV84 rev.int. OT, I'm very happy with how it works.

EDUARDO JIMENEZ

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347902#Comment_347902

LOGOS, could you provide a step-by-step workflow of notetaking from a point of view of a pastor, who has to prepare at least 3 messages per week? How about a seminary student, who has 6 separate courses per semester and who wants to share his notes/highlights with professors/peers?

Since Logos has an academic mission, this is the way. And would not conflict with any other purpose. [:|]

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347999#Comment_347999

Toughski,

I have to agree w/Richard on the issue of adaptability. Logos has grown immensely over the years. In some cases they have adapted to the users[requests and suggestions] The beta testers have done outstanding in their help to get some of the bugs related discovered and resolved.

The notes issue seems to be frontline at the present. I adapted, as with Richard, over the years and have the more extensive note files located outside of L4(3). I think that many have done the same as well.

Maybe Logos can come up with somehting that will benefit everyone in regards to this issue. The volume of notes by each individual is going to be different, how Logos attempts to satify this will not satify everyone involved, That just the way it is and has been over the years.

The best we can do at the moment is attempt to develope a more suitable style of note taking that doesn't overwhelm the Logos program, which many as well as myself has done using another program.....

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347999#Comment_347999

Upon Logos install, it automatically creates a notefile for each resource

Oh, please don't do that. I don't need nor want a note file for every volume of a series, every papyrus, every Perseus entry. I don't work with notes that way, and wouldn't want to. If I take notes beyond Bible text, they are usually very brief notes and are organized by subject (never by resource).

Richard - Forget notes. Also, forget your own personal usage. Just think about highlights. Think about someone trying to find a single highlight in a note file that includes 100 resources. 500. 1000 or more. The current system, set up by default, is for all highlights from a pallet to go into a single "note" folder.

Also, think about someone who wants to share highlights from ONE resource with another user. A massive, giant note folder isn't ideal.

Also, think about the fact that massive highlight note files have a tendency to crash the mobile app. I know, because I have experienced it, and have worked with other users with the same problem. Smaller note files = no problem. Single, giant note file = unusable app.

What I have tried to explain Ad Nauseam is that every resource should have a note file behind the scenes. If you think back to the glory days (just kidding) of 4.3, when highlights weren't notes, you could highlight in a resource and never think about where the highlight was going. I want to get back to that, but keep the advantages of the new system.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/347999#Comment_347999

Oh, please don't do that. I don't need nor want a note file for every volume of a series, every papyrus, every Perseus entry. I don't work with notes that way, and wouldn't want to. If I take notes beyond Bible text, they are usually very brief notes and are organized by subject (never by resource).

Richard, with all due respect, I was not posting just to "pick" on Logos. It was, I feel, my constructive criticism of a feature that lacked thorough design. I think you either misunderstood, or did not read my post completely. I really don't care where Logos stores the notefile or how it names it. I would rather it completely handled these two functions, but gave me access to them (via a right-click, if you will) on demand. But you make a good point - there are a ton of resources that I would never open (note to LOGOS - we need an improved Library management system allowing us to hide/archive/delete custom made collections...), so it really does not make sense to create notefiles for them at the beginning - maybe upon first use???

I think LOGOS' biggest problem is that they don't have a paradigm for the functions they program. Another way of saying it - they don't USE their software.

That might be your impression, but it's not true. They do use their own program and have said so on these forums

There are too many little "usability" tweaks that would make a huge difference to users. In the interest of keeping this post on topic, I will drop this "impression."

I've been using Logos since version 1.6 and have adapted my work-flow to how Logos works. So, I guess I wouldn't be a good candidate for what you want to study, since I've adapted to Logos (and never considered trying to get Logos to adapt to me)

Logos is a tool. Tools are made to adapt to the workflow, to the craftsman, not the other way around. Yes, to get the best use from the tool, one needs to learn the proper technique, and master the functions of the tool, but what you are saying "I just learned how to use the handle of the screwdriver as a hammer."

I haven't used Logos as long as you, but I have too "adapted to the way Logos works." I just wish that those super talented folks at Logos programmed the super-repetitive tasks and have taken that load off the user and put it on the software's shoulders.

Not talking to Richard specifically now:

why do I REALLY need to know the name and location of each notefile?
how much computer resource penalty (CPU, RAM, HD) is there REALLY if there are a dozen books open AND their corresponding notefiles? (I am not arguing, I just want to know. Maybe it would make Logos so slow it would crawl even on the best rigs out there today... I don't know.)
Is there REALLY EVER a need to have more than 5 resources open at once? What I am saying, maybe a new 6th resource should replace a similar resource, instead of adding yet another tab...

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/348034#Comment_348034

What I have tried to explain Ad Nauseam is that every resource should have a note file behind the scenes. If you think back to the glory days (just kidding) of 4.3, when highlights weren't notes, you could highlight in a resource and never think about where the highlight was going. I want to get back to that, but keep the advantages of the new system.

Angelic choir singing "Hallelujah, Amen!!!"

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Armin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/348034#Comment_348034

Also, think about the fact that massive highlight note files have a tendency to crash the mobile app. I know, because I have experienced it, and have worked with other users with the same problem. Smaller note files = no problem. Single, giant note file = unusable app.

What I have tried to explain Ad Nauseam is that every resource should have a note file behind the scenes. If you think back to the glory days (just kidding) of 4.3, when highlights weren't notes, you could highlight in a resource and never think about where the highlight was going. I want to get back to that, but keep the advantages of the new system.

I agree. My mobile app crashes regularly if the notes file gets too big. So notes on mobile devices easily become unusable. I am only waiting for my number of highlights getting so large that Logos won't run any more on my iPhone. This would be sad, especially since I cannot disable the notes on my iPhone.

My preference would also be to have a note file for each resource that is simply linked to the resource but not listed under "files". All highlights and notes related to this resource go into this file. This is the same workflow as we have with regular, old-fashioned, physical books: If I use a highlighter pen, the highlights are only in this one book. And when I scribble notes into the physical book, they are only accessible in this one book. In addition, we could then have some general notes files that are not linked to any resource and are listed under "files".

Armin

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/348034#Comment_348034

Richard - Forget notes. Also, forget your own personal usage. Just think about highlights.

I try not to think about highlights and almost never use them. I used them more in Libronix, but with the invention of visual filters, I find that a lot of what I was trying to do with highlights works better with visual filters.

If I want to note something, I write a note.

If I were a student, and had text books to study and test from, I'd probably highlight more. But these days none of my tests are written tests anymore. [;)]

Think about someone trying to find a single highlight in a note file that includes 100 resources. 500. 1000 or more.

I'm trying to ask this without sounding either stupid or accusatory, but I'll just ask and take my lumps: "Why would anyone want to do that?" I really can't think of any reason I would want to find a highlight in a note file, or a highlight palette file, or anywhere else, except in the resource the highlight was in. Like I said, if I wanted to make a note of something, I'd make a note. Highlights weren't a good way to track anything before, that's not changed. Obviously this seems important to some folks, though, so I've gotta be missing something. Maybe it's a difference in how we view highlights (?).

Also, think about the fact that massive highlight note files have a tendency to crash the mobile app.

That's a problem. And I hope it's being discussed in one of the mobile
app forums. I've not been tracking them as I don't have a mobile device
(unless a Kindle Fire counts), and I don't highlight very much (I find
too much highlighting intrusive and distracting).

@toughski

Logos is a tool. Tools are made to adapt to the
workflow, to the craftsman, not the other way around. Yes, to get the
best use from the tool, one needs to learn the proper technique, and
master the functions of the tool, but what you are saying "I just
learned how to use the handle of the screwdriver as a hammer."

You can't use a chain saw, like a lumber saw, you have to adapt to the tool you have. If you're used to John Deere controls for an excavator and try to run a Caterpillar brand excavator, you'd have to adapt. If you're used to a hand-held jig saw, and need to run a band saw, you'd have to adapt. If you're used to WordPerfect, and get stuck with Word, you'd have to adapt. In any case, you need to adapt your work-flow to the tools available. You'd also find some folks pining for John Deere controls, 'the feel of the jig-saw in your hand' and the usability of WP, but they'd either adapt or revert.

Craftsmen always adapt to both the tools they're using and the material they're working with. I've known quite a few genuine craftsmen, it's a genuine pleasure to watch them work. What Craftsmen also know that one tool is probably not enough for every task, so they have a tool-box. What they also know is that sometimes brand"X" is great for task"A" but brand"Y" is better for task"B," in the way a guitarist might prefer a Taylor acoustic, but a Fender electric (or a 'strat' for rock, but a telecaster for jazz).

Logos is my basic "tool box" for Bible study, but I also have tools "that are not of this sheep pen:" Word, WordPerfect (for stuff I have from the past), Wikipedia, OneNote, and my NIV Study Bible (when are we ever going to get that into Logos?!). I think I have a pretty good work flow, and for the way I work your suggestions would not improve it in any way I could imagine. That doesn't mean you're wrong and I'm right (or vice versa), it just means we work differently. In fact, I've never met two pastors who have the exact same work-flow. Preaching is a fairly personal process, and is often driven by a very personal and unique style.

I will grant that good tool companies watch craftsmen work, and listen to their suggestions. Yet, I think Logos has a pretty good track record there too (better than any other software that I use!).

BTW, I have used a screwdriver for a hammer (on small nails, like 'brads'), vice versa (hammer in screws) works better, I've also used a rock, a wrench, and a few other things to drive in nails, and besides a claw hammer I've been known to use a pair of pliers to pull a nail out (sometimes the pliers is a better choice). I did find that it's best not to use a drill as a router, and sanding by hand between coats of urethane is better than using a belt sander. [:$]

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/348370#Comment_348370

Think about someone trying to find a single highlight in a note file that includes 100 resources. 500. 1000 or more.

"Why would anyone want to do that?"

For the most part, I agree with you… BUT - remember, highlights are now "notes" - If someone wants to highlight a section and then make personal comments, they can do so. Personally, I prefer to use note indicators for places where I will make comments, but others may not want to do it that way. Without a note indicator, there is no way to find the note. This change is not a bug, but a new feature! Just because you or I will not use it that way doesn't mean others won't (or shouldn't).

I really can't think of any reason I would want to find a highlight in a note file, or a highlight palette file, or anywhere else, except in the resource the highlight was in.

Which is one big reason why my suggestion should be implemented! You could highlight and forget about it!

I also have tools "that are not of this sheep pen:"

[:D]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/348034#Comment_348034

What I have tried to explain Ad Nauseam is that every resource should have a note file behind the scenes. If you think back to the glory days (just kidding) of 4.3, when highlights weren't notes, you could highlight in a resource and never think about where the highlight was going. I want to get back to that, but keep the advantages of the new system.

And here I expected the thread to be off topic or dead by now.[:)] I agree that alabama24's suggestion is a good one if it is an option. For purposes of sharing, I need to be able to take notes from a number of resources and package them together. If highlight notes automatically carried their style name as they did in the early beta's it would make it much easier to package the right highlights. I have simply changed my thinking to think of a highlight as another note marker - no different than a colored rectangle except that it's style has a name.

Also, think about the fact that massive highlight note files have a tendency to crash the mobile app. I know, because I have experienced it, and have worked with other users with the same problem. Smaller note files = no problem. Single, giant note file = unusable app.

This is a big issue to me, pun intended. Even on the desktop performs starts to fall off quickly. I often send everything to a temporary work file and move it to the appropriate file later.

Notes for me are the one place where I have to be able to achieve something that meets my needs rather than adapting to what Logos thought my needs were - notes are at the heart of why I'd bother using an electronic tool.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/348370#Comment_348370

"Why would anyone want to do that?" I really can't think of any reason I would want to find a highlight in a note file, or a highlight palette file, or anywhere else, except in the resource the highlight was in.

• If you discover you want to be able to turn off some of your highlights without also turning off all others, you have to first move one set to another file. Which means you first have to find them.

• If you're doing more than a few, it's much faster to delete and change colour from the file than directly from the resource.

• Like Rosie, I have a palette for reported typos. It's now very quick to glance through that file now and then and see what's been fixed, and delete those entries.

• Similarly, I've started a palette with which I highlight the headings of for example dictionary entries that I read. With time that file will provide a quick and easy way to see what I have and haven't read on a subject.