I really don't understand the point of publishing Usher when so much of it is in Latin that almost no Logos users will be able to read.
Appears => The Whole Works of James Ussher (18 vols.) has more Latin than English; noted several volumes had both English and Latin.
Keep Smiling [:)]
Maybe if more people knew it was mostly in Latin they'd rescind their bids. Can anyone say "The Fall of the House of Ussher"?* [:)]
*lame pun, reference to Edgar Allan Poe's short story with different spelling: Usher
P.S. Maybe more Logos users should learn to read Latin. I read recently that the ATMs in Vatican City used to have Latin as one of the language options until recently. I guess not enough people read/write Latin anymore to maintain the menu choices as options are updated. And it must be tricky to explain modern banking concepts in an archaic language.
http://kottke.org/12/04/vatican-city-atms-use-latin
I read recently that the ATMs in Vatican City used to have Latin as one of the language options until recently.
I wasn't aware that they stopped this - I knew about that and always liked the idea very much. I really wanted to try this, should I happen to visit Vatican City some day.
it must be tricky to explain modern banking concepts in an archaic language.
There is a community of "living Latin" people that have blogs, newspapers etc and you have Latin vocabulary for all sorts of modern things, so I don't think there was an issue of explaining "insert card, type PIN, select amount, take card, take money" in Latin at all. The usage of an ATM is pretty standardized, too (I think I remember once using one that worked only in Spanish language, nevertheless I got my money out of it). After all, people come to Vatican City from all countries of the globe, and not neccessarily all speak English, whereas e.g. RCC clergy can be expected to know Latin. But then again, the number of buttons for language selection is limited.
I read recently that the ATMs in Vatican City used to have Latin as one of the language options until recently. I wasn't aware that they stopped this - I knew about that and always liked the idea very much. I really wanted to try this, should I happen to visit Vatican City some day.
Yes, according to the source where I got that photo, "they removed the Latin option with a software update sometime in late 2010/early 2011".
There is a community of "living Latin" people that have blogs, newspapers etc
Yes, I'd heard about that. That's why I purposely didn't call it a "dead language" but an "archaic language." [:-)]
I would actually like to learn Latin, but not for communicating today; rather for reading ancient texts. I think the idea of resurrecting the language and using it to talk about computers and whatever in modern life is pretty silly.
After all, people come to Vatican City from all countries of the globe, and not neccessarily all speak English
That's also why so many of the Taize songs are in Latin. "Laudate Domine," "Ubi Caritas," "Veni Sancte Spiritus," etc.
Well, it may not be a resurrection, as (unlike Koine Greek or Homeric Greek, for that matter) Latin never really died out - there always have been people able to converse in Latin.
But the bigger point is that there seems to be quite a discussion around instructors of archaic languages. Some explicitly change their teaching methodology and teach Latin / Greek like e.g. French. One rather compelling argument seems to be that learnig a language as a living language (including communicating about "trivial" things) brings a greater proficiency, i.e. actually "reading" an ancient text, becoming aware of greater structures, the "flow" of argumentation etc, than the bit-by-bit parsing of pre- and suffixes etc.
It really seems strange that so many years of instruction in Latin or Greek yields so little of command of a foreign language - the same amount of time put into comparable complex living languages seems to give much greater results. So even under the old, unidirectional teaching of Latin as a "dead" language, teachers try to let students speak it to a certain extent, teaching material is geared more to the modern experience (Latin learning material for children in Germany this century starts with pupils at school, later with a family visit at a farm - unlike ours back then with the colloseum, fighting gladiators etc) and you will find some well-known modern books (from Asterix and Winnie the Pooh via Antoine de St.Exupery's "Little Prince" to Cornelia Funke's girls' stories about "the Wild Chickens") translated into Latin. But maybe this proves my point: with two/three years of English, a child may read children literature - after six years of old-style Latin one may usually not "just read it" but still stumble along. And even though I know the story of the "Little Prince" quite good, and the text flows along the pictures, I can't claim to "read" it in any meaningful sence of the matter. Wish I had been trained by a "resurrectionist" back then...
I didn't realize that Usher was so cultured...or relevant to biblical research [;)]
I think the idea of resurrecting the language and using it to talk about computers and whatever in modern life is pretty silly.
"Resurrecting"? It's not that long since being a university student meant you had to be more fluent in Latin than I am in English. And many (most?) Catholic seminaries were Latin-only longer still. The 2nd Vatican council did its sessions entirely in Latin. The observers from other churches were allowed interpreters; the bishops were not. And while the Vatican City mainly uses Italian these days, the Holy See still writes most of its official documents in Latin. Meaning they have to talk about things like computers and banking and stem cell research in Latin. Only today they have to employ a whole cadre of people to then translate these documents into a whole bunch of other languages. I bet there are those who long for the 'good old days'... And imagine the savings if the EU could conduct its business entirely in Latin!
Modern Protestants tend to believe Latin died with the Reformation, at least in Northern Europe. The truth is it got a huge upswing. It's amusingly visible when you come into an old Swedish church which still displays the continuous list of its pastors somewhere on a wall: there's a sharp change where the pre-Reformation Swedish names turn into post-Reformation Latinized ones. Pre-Reformation parish priests tended to be men of the people, who lived with the people and knew little more Latin than what they needed to get through the Mass. Post-Reformation priests were generally upper middle-class or so academics (not necessarily in theology); state officials who saw themselves as far above the people and associated only with the VIP's. And since understanding Latin had become a sign of status, you wanted to use it whenever you could. But of course, since it was no longer the Latin as such that was important, only the status and the internationality that came with it, Protestants had no problems later switching to French, then German, then English, as the political map changed, while Catholics were a bit more stubborn in keeping their Latin alive.
That's also why so many of the Taize songs are in Latin. "Laudate Domine,"
I'm glad Americans know about Taizé, but it's "Laudate Dominum". I believe "Laudate Domine" would exhort the Lord to laud all peoples [:P]. (You did say you were a pedant... [;)])
I believe "Laudate Domine" would exhort the Lord to laud all peoples
JFTR, I think, "Laudate Domine" alone would call a lord/ the Lord to laud or praise (leaving the object open). The well-known Taize song reads "Laudate omnes gentes, laudate dominum" which translates to "Praise, all you nations, praise the Lord" (see: "Praise the LORD, all you nations" Ps 117:1)
The well-known Taize song reads "Laudate omnes gentes, laudate dominum"
I assumed she was thinking of the one that reads "Laudate Dominum, laudate Dominum, omnes gentes: Alleluya."
I think, "Laudate Domine" alone would call a lord/ the Lord to laud or praise (leaving the object open)
I assumed the rest of the text would be the same, and, although I've forgotten most of the little Latin I've known, I believe "omnes gentes" would be the same in both nominative and accusative? Thus "Laudate Dominum, omnes gentes" would be "Praise the Lord, all peoples", but "Laudate, Domine, omnes gentes" would be "Praise, Lord, all peoples". Which I'm pretty sure isn't what Rosie meant to say [:D].
(Feel free to correct my Latin. That is definitely not an area in which I claim any expertise.)
although I've forgotten most of the little Latin I've known, I believe "omnes gentes" would be the same in both nominative and accusative? Thus "Laudate Dominum, omnes gentes" would be "Praise the Lord, all peoples", but "Laudate, Domine, omnes gentes" would be "Praise, Lord, all peoples". Which I'm pretty sure isn't what Rosie meant to say
Who knows, maybe you've forgotten more than I'll ever know about Latin [;)]
At least, I've forgotten much more than I'd like to, but (after cheating by looking up the mixed declension on the web) I think you are correct with gens, but now see we both are wrong with "laudate" - it's plural, to call on the one Lord to praise would be something like "Lauda Domine!" Latin is fun!
"laudate" - it's plural
Of course it is! How could I miss that?! (If there was an emoticon for 'banging my own head', I'd use it here -- I guess I'll have to settle for [:$])
-- I know: lets blame it on all these English speakers who confuse our natural grammatical instincts by forcing us to use 'you' for both singular and plural. [:)]
EDIT: Or maybe I was influenced by the trinitarian debates lately and subconsciously wanted to affirm my belief in the Holy Trinity. [:)]
EDIT: Or maybe I was influenced by the trinitarian debates lately and subconsciously wanted to affirm my belief in the Holy Trinity.
Ha, nice trick! I'll claim that for me as well!
And just as an addendum to my post above I just found that Amazon.com has nearly 90.000 books in Latin (the topseller position being "Harrius Potter et Philosophi Lapis" )
This set is worth it for "A Body of Divinity" alone, a marvelous systematic theology in its own right, I have always enjoyed (and I mean enjoyed) dipping into my printed copy.
Ha, nice trick!
Yes, wasn't it?
I just found that Amazon.com has nearly 90.000 books in Latin (the topseller position being "Harrius Potter et Philosophi Lapis" )
That must be great for getting kids to read Latin!
Actually Church Latin wasn't all that archaic - it was the lingua franca of the Church even for mundane tasks. However, after Vatican II revisions, Latin was no longer a mandatory ingredient of a priest's training. This left the Church without a true lingua fanca and hence, without a market for Latin ATMs. A quick search in Logos for "Latin ATM" turned up no references. Glad you brought the loss to my attention.
A quick search in Logos for "Latin ATM" turned up no references. Glad you brought the loss to my attention.
I'm fairly sure I've mentioned the Vatican's dictionary for modern Latin in a Suggestion thread once, so hopefully it's on their radar. How else are we going to get through all those encyclicals? [:)]
I think the CCC will be seen as a turning point in Official Latin. While the standard text is now the Latin, it was not written in Latin. I think it was written in French (I am sure someone will correct me on details) and then back-translated.
you will find some well-known modern books (from Asterix and Winnie the Pooh via Antoine de St.Exupery's "Little Prince" to Cornelia Funke's girls' stories about "the Wild Chickens") translated into Latin
Yes, I'm aware of Winnie Ille Pu and others, such as Quomodo Invidiosulus Nomine Grinchus Christi Natalem Abrogaverit (How the Grinch Stole Christmas).
That's also why so many of the Taize songs are in Latin. "Laudate Domine," I'm glad Americans know about Taizé, but it's "Laudate Dominum". I believe "Laudate Domine" would exhort the Lord to laud all peoples . (You did say you were a pedant... )
I'm glad Americans know about Taizé, but it's "Laudate Dominum". I believe "Laudate Domine" would exhort the Lord to laud all peoples . (You did say you were a pedant... )
Oops, Merely, a typo. I know that song well.
The well-known Taize song reads "Laudate omnes gentes, laudate dominum" I assumed she was thinking of the one that reads "Laudate Dominum, laudate Dominum, omnes gentes: Alleluya."
Yup, fgh is right.
The well-known Taize song reads "Laudate omnes gentes, laudate dominum" I assumed she was thinking of the one that reads "Laudate Dominum, laudate Dominum, omnes gentes: Alleluya." Yup, fgh is right.
This seems to be a nice choir piece http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwRMT2_pi9c&feature=related - I don't recall hearing it before and I wouldn't have recognized as a Taize song. The one that plays in endless loop in my head sounds (video in quite a different quality, I admit) like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBgIxPc4cLc - theres a better one but with wrong Latin text in the video, and no swedish translation... [:P]
Edit: but found now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbb-kaurSW0&feature=related which is better
The one that plays in endless loop in my head sounds (video in quite a different quality, I admit) like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBgIxPc4cLc - theres a better one but with wrong Latin text in the video, and no swedish translation... Edit: but found now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbb-kaurSW0&feature=related which is better
The one that plays in endless loop in my head sounds (video in quite a different quality, I admit) like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBgIxPc4cLc - theres a better one but with wrong Latin text in the video, and no swedish translation...
That one's also familiar. I have been to many, many Taizé worship services. They are very popular around these parts (Seattle/Vancouver). I also have 4 or 5 CDs of Taizé songs, and a Taizé music book. I've helped lead Taizé worship services before.
The Taizé website has the music for them all (or many of them? not sure if it's really all of them) for people to listen and learn: http://www.taize.fr
This seems to be a nice choir piece
Actually, it's one of my least liked Taizé songs. I'd be perfectly happy if they retired it. But then you haven't heard it as many times as I have. [:)]
Too sterile for my taste.
I have been to many, many Taizé worship services.
Unfortunately, I suspect they didn't have all that much in common with the prayers in Taizé itself. They rarely do. In my experience most people who go to Taizé first, tend to avoid such services. Though, even more unfortunately, as I understand it Taizé itself has moved closer to them, so I guess those who go these days don't know what they're missing as much as we did.
American Christianity desperately needs more contemplative prayer, though, so I'm still glad you have them.
The Taizé website has the music for them
Thanks for mentioning that. I haven't been to their website for a couple of years, so I hadn't noticed they'd added it. I do subscribe to their podcast via iTunes, though. There's a relatively new (?) one called "Let all who are thirsty come", which is absolutely fantastic, but it seems the prayer it was in is no longer there. [:(]
Wait. I should have done what Mick did: check Youtube. Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZnIdjufhSE. Summer of 2010 it seems.
Thanks for mentioning that. I haven't been to their website for a couple of years, so I hadn't noticed they'd added it. I do subscribe to their podcast via iTunes, though. There's a relatively new (?) one called "Let all who are thirsty come", which is absolutely fantastic, but it seems the prayer it was in is no longer there
seems all three we are discussing are right beneath each other on their music learning site on http://www.taize.fr/en_article10308.html
Their midi also reminds of Logos....
Missed that page.
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