Charismatic/Pentecostal works seem to be in short supply.

I installed L4 Basic a few weeks ago and am still getting used to the new interface/conventions. I went looking for a commentary coming from a Charismatic/Pentecostal viewpoint. I came up dry and I'm wondering why. (No rhyme intended. :>) Seems to me that some of this kind of work should be included in the Basic package. The only thing I can find with a Charismatic/Pentecostal orientation is Foundations of Pentecostal Theology, a systematic theology, not a commentary.

Is there a prejudice against Charismatic/Pentecostal works at Logos?

I love some of the classic commentaries and am grateful to have them available through Logos, but am tired of having to wade around the cessationist assumptions most of them make. When I use a commentary I'm looking for clear thinking that is free of false logic to help me think things through. I found a post from 2010 in the Suggestions section of this forum that had lots and lots of good suggestions -- the reply list is exceptionally long -- so it's not like the Logos managers don't have material to draw from. Which brings me back to the question I posed above -- is the reason these materials are lacking because Logos management just doesn't like the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement? I hope I'm wrong.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

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Comments

mab

I don't see a shortage in a denominational perspective as an issue. The main thing is still the main thing from an evangelical focus. Logos seems to have that more than covered. Practically everyone has found something to put on a wishlist for Logos to offer and suggestions are always welcome.

FWIW, we've recently gotten some works by Stanley Horton and that's great and much appreciated. I'm working on Acts right now and it's a real blessing!

Ted Hans

I am not aware of any major commentary series from a Charismatic/Pentecostal perspective.

I can only think of :

1) The Full Life Bible commentary To The New Testament edited by French L. Arrington & Roger Stronstad

2) The Pentecostal Commentary, which I believe only 3 or 4 volumes have been published.

What other Charismatic/Pentecostal commentaries are you referring to?

BTW see the Pentecostal Collection (5 vols.) here http://www.logos.com/product/15704/pentecostal-collection

Philana Crouch

I don’t think the issue is prejudice, but trying to get resources that can appeal to the largest range of customers. It’s taken years to get works from those who come from the tradition of the Radical Reformation (this week we will finally get an Anabaptist and Mennonite collection). I think it will take time, but you will see more Charismatic/Pentecostal works. Part of the problem could be with getting permission from the publisher. Do other Bible software companies have a lot of Charismatic/Pentecostal resources…this might indicate the disposition of the publishers in granting permission for digital editions.

While its not a commentary, study Bibles function in a similar way. You might check out the New Spirit Filled Life Bible it could be helpful to you. A second option is if you can find resources (especially Public Domain works) you could create Personal Book versions for your library.

Todd Phillips

I installed L4 Basic a few weeks ago and
am still getting used to the new interface/conventions. I went looking
for a commentary coming from a Charismatic/Pentecostal viewpoint. I
came up dry and I'm wondering why. (No rhyme intended. :>) Seems
to me that some of this kind of work should be included in the Basic
package.

Not sure what the "Basic" package is. What is the name of your base package? Bible Study library?

You'll have to supplement your library with additional resources
to get good commentaries (unless you buy a higher end library, like
Scholars Gold). Ted has identified some charismatic ones in the previous post.

Here is a list of Logos resources identified as "Pentecostal":

http://www.logos.com/products/search?Status=Live&Christian+Group=Pentecostal&start=0&sort=newest&pageSize=60

John T Reagan

"Bible Study Library" rather than "Basic Edition". Sorry for the confusion.

John T Reagan

What other Charismatic/Pentecostal commentaries are you referring to?

Actually, the reason for my search is to find some commentaries like that. A Google search turned up a few. I have Intervarsity's Ancient Christian Commentary on my bookshelves along with McGee's Through the Bible Commentary. Of course, neither of those is from the Charismatic/Pentecostal viewpoint. I pulled up a couple of classic commentaries on Logos this morning and found myself, as usual, wading through cessasionist assumptions. When I type "Charismatic" or "Pentecostal" into the Library window's search field, the screen goes blank. I purchased the Bible Study Library package when I upgraded to Logos 4, so maybe some resources just aren't available in my package? Still, you'd think something from the Spirit-filled perspective would be included in it.

I checked out your link and Horton's collection looks great. It's a good start and hopefully I can fit it into my budget someday.

GregW

I'm not aware that there is actually a commentary series from a Charismatic/Pentecostal viewpoint, but any commentary by Gordon Fee, for instance, is written from a Pentecostal standpoint (as well as being robustly scholarly). Unfortunately, several of his commentaries are in series where you have to buy the entire set (NICNT), The link earlier takes you to the volumes of his that are available in Logos.

I don't think there is an anti-charismatic/Pentecostal bias: I think the issue is probably what has the largest market, and you will find requests for more specific resources for Catholics, Mennonites/Anabaptists, Pentecostals/charismatics, SDAs and others elsewhere in these forums.Logos has probably produced most of the works for which there is a large market (in North America, at least - look at the number of conservative dispensationalist resources available) and is now getting around to some of the resources for which there is less demand, but which others would love to have in their libraries.

The best thing is probably to add your recommendation to those in the "Suggestions" forum (as I have done) to demonstrate to the relevant people that there really is demand for these resources.

Dave Moser

I love some of the classic commentaries and am grateful to have them available through Logos, but am tired of having to wade around the cessationist assumptions most of them make.

Your search, especially among "classic" commentaries, might be primarily a historical quest, not a business problem:

1. As a matter of history (not arguing doctrine here), charismatic influence in the church is largely a 20th century phenomenon. As such, "classic" commentaries aren't going to mention it much. I'm using the word "classic" here to simply mean old. Logos uses it similarly in it's "classic" commentaries bundles - all of which are public domain resources and are pre-1923.

2. The English-speaking church has been and largely is cessasionist. Logos provides primarily English resources. Therefore, most Logos resources are going to be from a cessasionist vantage point.

3. As previously noted, what resources are you expecting to find? Even in the 20th and 21st centuries, there aren't exactly a lot of commentaries written from charismatic perspectives. There are lots of devotional works from that perspective but that isn't really Logos' function.

Bohuslav Wojnar

When I type "Charismatic" or "Pentecostal" into the Library window's search field, the screen goes blank.

John, when I tried your method and typed "Pentecostal" to my library it gave me 12 titles.

When I typed "Baptist" it gave me 14 titles... (and it included some books on John the Baptist) [:D]

Most commentaries do not have that description in the title. You have to go by author names, since Pentecostal authors have heir commentaries included in the more general evangelical commentary series. (Gordon Fee, Michael Brown etc.)

Other thing we can do is to write suggestion of some commentaries you know about. We have seen some of the suggested by us Pentecostal works here in the forums coming to the pre-pub quite soon.

Robert I

1. As a matter of history (not arguing doctrine here), charismatic influence in the church is largely a 20th century phenomenon. As such, "classic" commentaries aren't going to mention it much. I'm using the word "classic" here to simply mean old. Logos uses it similarly in it's "classic" commentaries bundles - all of which are public domain resources and are pre-1923.

I would respectfully disagree and believe the Anabaptist and other movements throughout history and even in the Catholic Church and before Calvin, Zwingli, and Luther would differ. Also, the several Great Awakenings would contend with this. If you are referring to a perspective or view of the 'Charismatic' as observed on TV or depicted negatively, then I might be inclined to agree.

I will concede that it certainly has not been a main theme, but Dr. John White's book, "When the Spirit Comes With Power," notes some historical accounts that might content with this.

2. The English-speaking church has been and largely is cessasionist. Logos provides primarily English resources. Therefore, most Logos resources are going to be from a cessasionist vantage point.

Again, I would disagree and not just from a charismatic, non-denominational, Pentecostal, or Bible church view point. The collegiate movement, Passion, is a big indicator of the non-cessationists viewpoints. J. I. Packer's definition of Third Wavers is another example. Though I respect and admire folks like John McArther and Chuck Swindoll, I disagree with them (as does Chuck Swindoll's Pentecostal brother). Charles Stanley's son, Andy Stanley, falls into the neo-baptist (my term... no reference to anything historical at all) view and openness to non-cessation of the gifts. Many of my professors have taken a non-cessationsist view point thanks to the excellent scholarship of Gordon Fee.

3. As previously noted, what resources are you expecting to find? Even in the 20th and 21st centuries, there aren't exactly a lot of commentaries written from charismatic perspectives. There are lots of devotional works from that perspective but that isn't really Logos' function.

Again, the editor in chief of what is considered the most scholarly work, NICOT and NICNT is edited by Gordon Fee and he wrote 2 of the works (1st Corinthians and 1st and 2nd Thessalonians). I only mention this to note that there is some good scholarship out there and it is worth noting. Dispensationalism (if that is your definition of cessationism) is more modern phenomenon, The Amillennialismistic view point has been more historical. I say all this to point out that I do not think this necessarily true in humble opinion. Let's not forget the Church of Christ was founded by Holy Shakers and Holy Laughter well before the 20th century. :-)

MJ. Smith

I would respectfully disagree and believe the Anabaptist and other movements throughout history and even in the Catholic Church and before Calvin, Zwingli, and Luther would differ.

[Y]

P A

Wayne Grudem is a non cessationist! ESV study Bible editor.

The ESV study bible is not hostile to pentecostal/charismatic views.

Paul

Jerry M

Here is a list of Logos resources identified as "Pentecostal":

http://www.logos.com/products/search?Status=Live&Christian+Group=Pentecostal&start=0&sort=newest&pageSize=60

Nice link! You guys with the stars have all the inside info.

John T Reagan

Thanks, everyone! I have a little more to work with now. And....I think I owe Logos an apology. Seems like the problem is more a matter of availability than predjudice. Sorry!

I'm quite interested in Gordon Fee's works now that some of you recommended him. Unfortunately my Logos package doesn't have any of his writings.

Dave Moser

[Edit] I'd rather bow out...

Robert I

[Edit] I'd rather bow out...

Understood. I do apologize if I gave any appearance of being confrontational and divisive. I really enjoyed your remarks and thought they were interesting and thought provoking conversation. We can certainly agree to disagree... hey if Gordon Fee and John Stuart can work together as one in Christ, in agreement on the essentials, and yet allowing grace to pervade the nonessentials, then we can agree on the Absolute Truth, namely Christ. [:)] Jesus is Lord, grace is absolute, forgiveness is needed by all, He died and rose again, He is returning for His bride, and the Word of God is divine revelation for a life that glorifies God!

As [EDITED HERE to correct the citation... [8-|] ] Rupertus Meldenius said, "In essentials unity, in nonessentials grace, but in all things love." May His love and affection always be the motive and power behind my study of him and my Gospel proclamation of that His Kingdom has come in Christ and will be fully revealed in due time. Blessings and thanks, again!

Ed Blough

I think the real problem is there simply isn't a lot of commentaries and such written from a Pentecostal prospective. Stanley Horton has written a number of excellent books and they are offered by Logos as is a lot of Jack Hayford's works. However the Pentecostal community is lacking a prolific writer like John MacArthur or some of the Moody authors.

I would like to see Logos get the Full Life Study Bible written by Donald Stamp and published by Zondervan. It is now called the Life in the Spirit Bible and or the Fire Bible. It has been produced under all three names. Excellent Pentecostal Study Bible I consider it the best.

fgh

However the Pentecostal community is lacking a prolific writer

Peter Halldorf is one of the most prolific, one of the most read, and one of the most influential, Christian writers in Sweden today. Unfortunately he hasn't been translated, or I would have suggested him long ago.

(Of course, Peter isn't exactly your average American Pentecostal. [:P] About half his writings are on the church fathers and things like the liturgical year. He edits an excellent ecumenical journal on spirituality/discipleship, with a fairly Catholic/Orthodox flavour. He has a close relationship with the Coptic church in Egypt. He runs his own semi-monastic community. He likes icons. He sat near me at High Mass in a rather high church Lutheran church some months ago. And I'd say it was pretty clear he believed it was indeed the Body and Blood of Christ he received. So I guess he might be a bit too much of a cultural shock for you Americans. [:)] (He does write a lot about the Holy Spirit as well, though.))

MJ. Smith

he might be a bit too much of a cultural shock for you Americans.

Hey, a significant slice of Americans think Brother Roger is just fine.[:P]

For those who don't recognize the (Protestant) reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A8re_Roger

John T Reagan

I guess he might be a bit too much of a cultural shock for you Americans.

Except that his perspective (if I understand what you are
saying correctly) is just what we need. Our American
Pentecostal/Charismatic focus is so narrow that most of us have little or no
knowledge or understanding of the other traditions of the church. The
American Pentecostal movement got sidetracked early on because they were so
enamored with the tremendous experience of God that the Baptism of the Holy
Spirit brings into one's life, that they forgot that good, solid doctrine, based
on the word of God is both our safety net and our door to freedom. Many
un-Biblical practices and false doctrines highjacked a significant portion of
the people who were touched by that outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The
churches coming out of the Charismatic Renewal had less trouble with it because by
that time enough theological foundation had been laid to prevent it. We need broad, scholarly works, reflecting and advocating an acceptance of Pentecostal/Charismatic distinctives, to deepen and broaden our faith. I don't have to agree with everything a commentator says, I just sometimes need his help to reach the deeper truths of the word. I may reject the notion that the bread and wine of communion somehow "transmogrify" into the actual Body and Blood of Christ, but understanding that perspective will enrich and confirm my faith and deepen my relationship with the Lord. I'm not fond of Reformed theology, but I have received much from the few writings of John Piper that I have read. I'm not looking for a commentary that agrees with everything from the Pentecostal movement, I just want one that doesn't force me to wade through cessationist foolishnesses. If a commentator accepts that kind of stuff, how can I trust anything else he says?

I would love to read something from your friend Peter Halldorf.

Robert I

However the Pentecostal community is lacking a prolific writer like John MacArthur or some of the Moody authors.

I am not sure I would group all charismatic or Third Wavers in the Pentecostal tradition. I myself attended an Assemblies of God church for years, but could never fully buy into the initial evidence belief that is the usual distinction of Pentecostal theology. It was the reason I never received my license to preach in the AG church and the reason why it took a long discussion of my theology for my pastor to allow me to become an elder in the church. [;)]

On that note, I did write a final paper in college combining the 16 tenants of the Assemblies of God with the Apostles, Nicean, and Chalcedonian Creeds per my professor's guidance. It was a very interesting exercise and study. I say this only to highlight that the noncessationist view point is more of the vantage point that I would like more than just a Pentecostal view point.

Ed Blough

On that note, I did write a final paper in college combining the 16 tenants of the Assemblies of God with the Apostles, Nicean, and Chalcedonian Creeds per my professor's guidance. It was a very interesting exercise and study. I say this only to highlight that the noncessationist view point is more of the vantage point that I would like more than just a Pentecostal view point.

I would really like to read that paper if you would be willing to make it available.

And I agree there is more than Pentecostalism to the Noncessationist view, I was trying to use terms that most were familar with.

martha chevalier

hi, i have recently discovered Peter Halldorf. do you have any idea how i can find any english translations on his stuff???

thank you

Gary Osborne

I would like to see Logos get the Full Life Study Bible written by Donald Stamp and published by Zondervan. It is now called the Life in the Spirit Bible and or the Fire Bible. It has been produced under all three names. Excellent Pentecostal Study Bible I consider it the best.

Ed! So you are the other person (besides me) that has asked for Stamp's "Fire Bible" (aka "Full Life Study Bible" & "Life in the Spirit Bible") over the last decade. At least two of us want it. LOL

I just hope the WordSearch acquisition yields this resource soon. I've had it on preorder for almost 6 months now. It is, by far, the best of the classical Pentecostal resources out there.