When were the angels created?

David Paul

Which day?

Allen Browne

Which day?

Can't think of any resource (including the Bible) that answers that question with anything more than a guess.

 

Bill Coley

Which day?

 

I think it was a Thursday, just after lunch.    [:P]

MJ. Smith

Which day?

Every day

 

Now I wonder why you asked the question - had you run the search?

David Paul

Hehe, I'm a bit surprised at the paucity of response...up to a point. With nearly 130 views at this point, no one has given a credible response. Why is that?

MJ's is the least credible of all. The Mishna and Talmud, et al. are creative writing, by and large. The joke response isn' t serious, and the "don't know' response is the best of the three, but inherently lacking in satisfaction and illumination.

MJ, you ask why I ask? To see what the response would be. Asking "the-man-on-the-street" would be utterly pointless and fruitless, but one would expect an army of folks armed with the most advanced Biblical tools on the planet would be able to come up with at least SOMETHING...but no one has.

The answer to the question has far reaching impact upon many concepts held dear to orthodoxy...but that impact is seemingly ignored. It's almost as if it is a taboo subject. "Shhh...let's not go there."

I'm not shocked. I expected this sort of reaction, give or take. But I am disappointed that there hasn't been a stronger and more effective attempt at producing a credible response.

And no, I'm not trying to initiate a theological debate. I'm just trying to shine a bit of light on the elephant in the room. Logos users of all people ought to be able to address and explain this....issue.

 

George Somsel

Which day?

I'm not sure about what day, but they were created in the Jewish tradition during the Babylonian Captivity.  The concept was adopted from the Zoroastrians.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380431#Comment_380431

David ... you've definitely got that right. Mention 'angels' and you're instantly into theological discussion. Forget their apparent appearance (!) in the excilic period and similarity to the east. Just list out all the quotes on angels in the NT and see which denomination uses all the quotes.

I especially like the leering angels from 1 Cor. which in turn bounces you into the Gen 6 problem not to mention Enoch's 'watchers' or 'leerers'.

Just one important reason to wear a large hat on Sunday mornings in church (not the men of course; most commentaries don't notice why that would be).

I'm surprised you didn't go after the adversary's creation.

steve clark

Grudem in his Systematic Theology has a few articles on the creation of Angels:

When Were Angels Created?  logosres:grudemest;ref=Page.p_401;off=2050

The Creation of the Spiritual Universe logosres:grudemest;ref=Page.p_264;off=2201

Matt Hamrick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380431#Comment_380431

I'm not shocked. I expected this sort of reaction, give or take. But I am disappointed that there hasn't been a stronger and more effective attempt at producing a credible response.

That's because this is a theological question and against Logos Forum rules. Frankly, most Logos users probably do not care. It does not matter if you are trying to initiate a theological debate or not. With "130 views at this point" then I imagine there is a ton of debate around this question. The Logos forums are not the place for that.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380437#Comment_380437

Which day?

 

I'm not sure about what day, but they were created in the Jewish tradition during the Babylonian Captivity.  The concept was adopted from the Zoroastrians.

No, they were referred to as the sons of El and other designations previous to the captivity--unless the Ugaritic tradition on the Syrian coast from c. 1200 BC picked it up from the 6th century Persian Zoroastrians too. Makes perfect sense!

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380431#Comment_380431

Okay, I'll chime in. 

The debate over the timing of the creation of the angels was part of the wider 'two powers in heaven' controversy among the Jews and some unidentified minim.

The 'minim' (usually identified as Zadokites, proto-Gnostics or Christians if I recall correctly) placed the creation of the angels earlier than the rabbis, who were motivated in placing their creation later in order to refute a certain argument of the minim that a principal angel helped God in the creation. Thus a search of rabbinic material isn't really going to help on a question such as this as the rabbis were theological motivated to place the creation of the angels on day 2 or later.

I read about the discussion in Alan Segal's The Two Powers in Heaven, and I'd recommend consulting that work in order to fill in the gaps in my recollection. It is not available in Logos, unfortunately, though it is a standard work used in the dissertation by Logos' own academic editor, Michael Heiser.

fgh

Which day?

Job 38:4-7: "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone when the morning stars sang together and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?"

Sounds to me like they were created before the earth was. [:)]

 

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380460#Comment_380460

I sure hope we're not going to move into the morning stars problem.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380465#Comment_380465

Ok, this is more like it.

Again, I'm not trying to stir debate, I just want to get input.

Of the above responses, the one fgh posted is the one I feel is most germane to my OP. Yes, it does seem that they were present and accounted for when Gen. 1:1 occurs. If that is the case, and I'm not sure how one can say it isn't, does that create problems for "young earth" aficionados? Point being, if anything at all was created before Gen. 1:1, isn't that the camel's nose under the tent? Without saying more, is there anyone who advocates young earth who is troubled by Job 38:4-7? I'm just curious--I'm trying to understand the...issue.

Oh, and I will throw out that I'm also interested in ex nihilo concepts. To me, that concept, purely as a concept, is self-evident, especially given Jn. 1:3 and other verses. But what puzzles me is why some insist that ex nihilo requires that no creation took place before Gen. 1:1. Again, I'm looking for Logos resource input, not opinion.

p.s. Given that Job is widely considered to be the oldest text in the Bible, likely contemporaneous with Abraham, I would venture that the Ugaretes and the Zoroasterixes are Johnny-come-latelys to this conversation...and if Job (the book) is speaking truth, then EVERYONE and EVERYTHING is a Johnny-come-lately compared to the angels. They were definitely not "invented" from human minds.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380487#Comment_380487

Ok, this is more like it.

Again, I'm not trying to stir debate, I just want to get input.

Of the above responses, the one fgh posted is the one I feel is most germane to my OP. Yes, it does seem that they were present and accounted for when Gen. 1:1 occurs. If that is the case, and I'm not sure how one can say it isn't, does that create problems for "young earth" aficionados? Point being, if anything at all was created before Gen. 1:1, isn't that the camel's nose under the tent? Without saying more, is there anyone who advocates young earth who is troubled by Job 38:4-7? I'm just curious--I'm trying to understand the...issue.

Oh, and I will throw out that I'm also interested in ex nihilo concepts. To me, that concept, purely as a concept, is self-evident, especially given Jn. 1:3 and other verses. But what puzzles me is why some insist that ex nihilo requires that no creation took place before Gen. 1:1. Again, I'm looking for Logos resource input, not opinion.

p.s. Given that Job is widely considered to be the oldest text in the Bible, likely contemporaneous with Abraham, I would venture that the Ugaretes and the Zoroasterixes are Johnny-come-latelys to this conversation...and if Job (the book) is speaking truth, then EVERYONE and EVERYTHING is a Johnny-come-lately compared to the angels. They were definitely not "invented" from human minds.

Aside from the fact that I think attempting to interpret the first creation account as establishing an order and timeline for creation is illegitimate, one needs to understand that it speaks regarding the creation of the universe—"When God began to create the heavens and the earth …"   Would any supposed angelic creation be considered a part of the universe?

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380487#Comment_380487

does that create problems for "young earth" aficionados?

Thought you denied that you were seeking to start a debate. 

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380441#Comment_380441

Grudem in his Systematic Theology has a few articles on the creation of Angels:

When Were Angels Created?  logosres:grudemest;ref=Page.p_401;off=2050

The Creation of the Spiritual Universe logosres:grudemest;ref=Page.p_264;off=2201

Thanks for pointing us to the Logos reference. Grudem's answer is helpful and does a good job of saying what we know from Scripture while acknowledging the "hints":

All the angels must have been created before the seventh day of creation, for we read, “Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them” (Gen. 2:1, understanding “host” to be the heavenly creatures that inhabit God’s universe). Even more explicit than this is the statement, “In six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them and rested the seventh day” (Ex. 20:11). Therefore all the angels were created at least by the sixth day of creation.

But can we be any more specific? There may be a hint at the creation of angelic beings on the first day of creation when we read that “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Gen. 1:1), and then immediately after we read that “the earth was without form and void” (Gen. 1:2), but with no mention of the heavens in this second verse. This may suggest that the uninhabitable state of the earth is contrasted with the heavens where, perhaps, God had already created angelic beings and assigned them various roles and orders. This idea is made more plausible when we read that “the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy” at the time when God laid the “cornerstone” of the earth and sunk its “bases” in the process of forming or founding it (Job 38:6–7). If the angels (“the sons of God”) shouted for joy when God was making the earth inhabitable, this could imply that God created the angelic beings early on the first day.

However, since we have only hints in Scripture, we must remain content with the fact that God has not given us much information about the time of the creation of the angels. Further speculation, apart from clear scriptural data, would seem to be useless. “The secret things belong to the LORD our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law” (Deut. 29:29).

Some time before Satan tempted Eve in the garden (Gen. 3:1), a number of angels sinned and rebelled against God (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6). This event occurred apparently after the sixth day of creation when “God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good” (Gen. 1:31), but beyond this, Scripture gives us no further information.

 

Grudem, W. A. (2004). Systematic theology: An introduction to biblical doctrine (401–402). Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380487#Comment_380487

the Zoroasterixes are Johnny-come-latelys to this conversation.

Generally the core Avestan hymns are dated around the 1500-1000 BC i.e. approximately the same time range as the Vedas. Linguistically this makes sense because it is no effort to learn Avestan if you read Vedic Sanskrit. As there is considerable debate on the chronology of Abraham, this may or may not support your "Johnny-come-latelys" remark. It is also safe to assume that both the Zend Avesta and the Vedas existed in oral form prior to the written forms I used for setting "attested dates".

My apologies for omitting Logos references but my Logos package contains NO material in the appropriate languages. GASP[:O]

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380526#Comment_380526

Generally the core Avestan hymns are dated around the 1500-1000 BC i.e. approximately the same time range as the Vedas. Linguistically this makes sense because it is no effort to learn Avestan if you read Vedic Sanskrit. As there is considerable debate on the chronology of Abraham, this may or may not support your "Johnny-come-latelys" remark. It is also safe to assume that both the Zend Avesta and the Vedas existed in oral form prior to the written forms I used for setting "attested dates".

I put Abraham in the 1900 to 1800 BC timeframe, but even a later exodus timeframe would put him around 1600-1500 BC, which I think is silly late. No one really knows by whom Job was written, but assuming divine influence (and we all assume that, don't we? [8-|] ), YHWH's own testimony about who was cheering His creation events seems to trump all other accounts.

Sam Henderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380501#Comment_380501

 

Quite right. This thread was an invitation to a theological debabe from the get go. The original poster was being disingenuous by maintaining otherwise. This type of discussion follows a predictable pattern on this forum: The discussion gets bogged down in minute disagreements of interpretation, the posts become more vehement and heated, eventually sputtering into petty ad hominum abuse, while disinterested commenters wring their collective hands over the sad witness of Christians bickering in public. Better not to go there (again).

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380501#Comment_380501

does that create problems for "young earth" aficionados?

Thought you denied that you were seeking to start a debate. 

I'm not seeking debate. I'm simply curious. I'm not sold on young or old earth--I see plenty of room for both. But many young earth cheerleaders insist that Gen. 1 is the WHOLE STORY as far as creation is concerned, and they tie ex nihilo concepts into their perspective. Job 38 seems to explicitly indicate the angels were on site when the creation was taking place. I just want to know if anyone who has that perspective of young earth sees a problem, and also possibly explain why not if not.

I'm not going to argue with anyone...like I said, I'm just curious and want to understand.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380441#Comment_380441

Grudem in his Systematic Theology has a few articles on the creation of Angels:

When Were Angels Created?  logosres:grudemest;ref=Page.p_401;off=2050

The Creation of the Spiritual Universe logosres:grudemest;ref=Page.p_264;off=2201

 

I don't have Grudem. Can you post a paragraph or two of what he says. I'd appreciate it. [:)]

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380536#Comment_380536

I don't have Grudem. Can you post a paragraph or two of what he says. I'd appreciate it.

Jacob quoted the first article here in this previous post. Below is a screenshot of the TOC and part of the 1st article

There are several articles concerning Angels in his book

 

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380495#Comment_380495

Aside from the fact that I think attempting to interpret the first creation account as establishing an order and timeline for creation is illegitimate, one needs to understand that it speaks regarding the creation of the universe—"When God began to create the heavens and the earth …"   Would any supposed angelic creation be considered a part of the universe?

LOL, always dependable, George.

We are venturing toward "angels on pinheads" territory, I think. Still, let's work through this: We all tend to think that God lives in heaven, right? Or, at the very least, in one of the heavens--likely the third one. But if the heaven where YHWH lives didn't get created until Creation, where was he "standing" (or pick your locative word) when He created the heavens? Obviously, we can't answer the question...but, we can at least conceive that if He could be "there", He could also make it possible for the angels to be there as well.

I am also not sold on the JPS Tanakh version of Gen. 1:1 that you quoted. I watched Michael Heiser's presentation on that, and don't find it terribly compelling. He says that the grammar supports that translation. I don't see it. Still, his conclusion that allows for an old earth is one I can acknowledge as possible, I just don't agree with his way of getting there.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380541#Comment_380541

I don't have Grudem. Can you post a paragraph or two of what he says. I'd appreciate it.

Jacob quoted the first article here in this previous post. Below is a screenshot of the TOC and part of the 1st article

There are several articles concerning Angels in his book

Interesting. His suggestion about them being created in Gen. 1:1, which is before what we tend to call "the first day of creation" could be plausible...but only if the angels were created before YHWH created anything else...since Job 38 describes them cheering the creation of the heavens and earth more so than the creations of days 1 through 6. But that scenario leaves the door open for old earth ideas.

I'd still like to hear from a young earth person, if there are any out there. There are some out there, aren't there? [:S]

John Brumett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380517#Comment_380517

Renald Showers book on Angels is helpful:  He indicates that they were created on the first day of creation. 

The Time of Their Creation: The Bible does not give a clear, specific statement concerning when angels were created. However, the teaching of three passages, taken together, indicates the time of their creation.

The first passage is Job 38:6–7. It is important to note that it was God who spoke in this passage (see v. 1). He declared that when He created the earth, "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy" (v. 7). God thereby revealed that the morning stars/sons of God were already present to observe His act of bringing the earth into existence, and they were so impressed with this great work that they sang and shouted His praises. This declaration of God indicates that the morning stars/sons of God existed before the earth was created.

Who were these morning stars/sons of God? In attempting to identify them, we should note three things. First, the fact that they sang and shouted God’s praises indicates that the morning stars/sons of God were personal beings, not impersonal objects.

Second, the Book of Job is an Old Testament poetic book. A major characteristic of ancient Hebrew poetry was parallelism, where two lines express the same thought but through different words. The two lines "the morning stars sang together" and "all the sons of God shouted for joy" of Job 38:7 are an example of Hebrew parallelism; therefore, they express the same thought and do not represent two sets of beings.

Third, "the sons of God" were mentioned earlier in the Book of Job (1:6; 2:1). Scholars are convinced that in those passages and Job 38:7 "the sons of God" are angels. This means, then, following the poetic use of parallelism, that the expression "the morning stars" is also a reference to angels.

In light of what has been seen, it can be concluded that in Job 38:6–7 God revealed that the angels were already existing and present when He created the earth.

The second passage related to the issue of when angels were created is Exodus 20:11. There Moses declared that "in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day." (The Hebrew text says "the heavens" [plural] "and the earth.") This statement is very significant because it indicates that within the scope of the six days of creation of Genesis 1 God created not only the heavens and the earth, but also all the different kinds of life forms that exist in the heavens, the earth, and the sea (see Gen. 2:1–4; Neh. 9:6).

The Bible indicates that the angels are a kind of life form that exists in the heavenly realm (1 Ki. 22:19; Ps. 103:19–21; Mt. 18:10; 22:30; 24:36; Lk. 2:13–15). As a result, Moses’ declaration in Exodus 20:11 is applicable to them. It strongly implies that the angels were created within the scope of the six days of creation of Genesis 1, not before or after those days.

The third passage that sheds light on the time when angels were created is Genesis 1:1 which states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (the Hebrew text says "the heavens" [plural] "and the earth," exactly as does Exodus 20:11). Because Exodus 20:11 indicated that the heavens and the earth were created within the scope of the six days of creation of Genesis 1, it can be concluded that the creative activity of Genesis 1:1 took place within the scope of those same six days, not before or after those days.

In light of this, a reading of Genesis 1:1–5 prompts the further conclusion that those verses refer to the first day of the six days of creation.

In light of these passages, three strong conclusions can be made about the time the angels were created. First, they were created sometime before the creation of the earth (Job 38:6–7). Second, they were created within the scope of the six days of creation of Genesis 1, not before or after those days (Ex. 20:11). Third, God created the heavens and the earth on the first day of the six days of creation (Gen. 1:1).

Thus, the angels were created by God on the first day of the six days of creation, but before the earth was created on that same day. It is interesting to note the order of Moses’ statement in Genesis 1:1. He referred to the heavens first, then the earth. It would appear that early on the first day God created the heavens. Later on that day He created the angels to inhabit the heavens. Still later on the first day He created the earth in its undeveloped, uninhabited state.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380561#Comment_380561

The second passage related to the issue of when angels were created is Exodus 20:11. There Moses declared that "in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day." (The Hebrew text says "the heavens" [plural] "and the earth.") This statement is very significant because it indicates that within the scope of the six days of creation of Genesis 1 God created not only the heavens and the earth, but also all the different kinds of life forms that exist in the heavens, the earth, and the sea (see Gen. 2:1–4; Neh. 9:6).

It's really rather silly to make something out of the fact that "heavens" is plural.  Heavens is always plural since is is a combination of the relative שׁ indicating here the source (compare אשׁר) and the word for water (מים) which seems to be conceived of as a combination of water (droplets?).  The same is true of other Semitic languages such as Ugaritic (see Gordon, UT 19.2427).  The fact that it is plural is of no significance.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380561#Comment_380561

Thus, the angels were created by God on the first day of the six days of creation, but before the earth was created on that same day. It is interesting to note the order of Moses’ statement in Genesis 1:1. He referred to the heavens first, then the earth. It would appear that early on the first day God created the heavens. Later on that day He created the angels to inhabit the heavens. Still later on the first day He created the earth in its undeveloped, uninhabited state.

Once again, you are overinterpreting. 

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380574#Comment_380574

Once again, you are overinterpreting. 

I apparently underinterpreted. I thought John was presenting the view of Renald Showers for whom I find "Dr. Renald E. Showers holds degrees from Wheaton College, Dallas
Theological Seminary, and Grace Theological Seminary. He has served on
the faculties of Lancaster Bible College, Moody Bible Institute, and
Philadelphia College of the Bible.".

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380577#Comment_380577

Once again, you are overinterpreting. 

I apparently underinterpreted. I thought John was presenting the view of Renald Showers for whom I find "Dr. Renald E. Showers holds degrees from Wheaton College, Dallas Theological Seminary, and Grace Theological Seminary. He has served on the faculties of Lancaster Bible College, Moody Bible Institute, and Philadelphia College of the Bible.".

I don't think too highly of Grace Theological Seminary since I briefly went to the college and wasn't favorably impressed with the theological faculty.  Then, as it says in the gospel "Can any good thing come out of Dallas?"  [;)]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/380579#Comment_380579

That was a low blow, George. Right off the top of my head, JR comes to mind (Dallas).