"Jots and Tittles" - large/small letters and dots over letters in BHS - when added to text?
This Website http://lionlamb.net/v3/YAVOH-HeisComing/2004/07 provides numerous examples where the standard Hebrew text of the Old Testament has some larger and smaller than regular letters (e.g., Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 6:4) as well as dots over some letters (Deuteronomy 29:29). Some of these are noted in the Logos versions of BHS (like the dots in Deuteronomy 29:29) but the changed letter sizes are not.
WHEN did these orthographic things appear in the Hebrew text? Is there any evidence that they are in the Dead Sea Scrolls texts of these passages? Or were they done by the Masoretes? Any idea how far back the traditions about these particular things go - i.e., were they known to Jesus and Paul; did their Torahs have these orthographic characteristics?
(Some refer to these as "jots and tittles" apparently.)
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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After briefly scanning the website you cited, I would not give it too much credibility. The author doesn't seem to have a very good grasp of the ancient world and the interactions between Biblical Hebrew, spoken Aramaic, written Greek and translation into modern English. My understanding is that the larger/smaller letters or dots above the text are NOT "jots and tittles". A "jot" is literally a "yod" [י] - a letter in the Hebrew alphabet. Remember that neither Hebrew nor Greek have a "j" and that the sound of "t" and "d" are closely related as dental and glossal explosives so it is easy to see how "yod" would be transliterated into "jot" in English.
The "tittle" is literally a small stroke of the pen when handwritting certain letters in the Hebrew alphabet. the difference between a "dalet" [ד] and a "resh" [ר] is a little extension of the top stroke before making the downstroke.
Jesus was not referring to extra notations to the text, but small intricate strokes that are actually contained in the way Hebrew letters are written.
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I noticed that when he claims that certain letters have meanings (apart from being used in conjunction with other letters to spell words) that he cites no sources to back this up. It might very well be true, but after taking Hebrew I never even heard of this. I have also never come across it in any commentaries. He provides no pictures of actual manuscripts where this occurs either.
I'd like to see some evidence that those smaller letters have that additional meanings besides the writer making the claim. His examples that he cites were created by setting the size of the type. Also if this does occur in physical manuscripts unless it's consistent it could merely be a scribes handwriting anomaly.
Its interesting, but I think more evidence is needed before calling it an actual orthographic characteristic.
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Does anyone know the name of the little drawing program Morris Proctor was suggesting at camp logos?
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Darren Ratzlaff said:
Does anyone know the name of the little drawing program Morris Proctor was suggesting at camp logos?
Darren you might want to start a new thread to ask your question. You will have a better chance that someone will see it who knows the answer.
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I'm not asking about the validity of these interpretations or whether the orthography should be called "jots and tittles." Those are other questions. What I'd like to know is WHEN the Jews began writing the Torah and the other OT scrolls with these distinctive spellings/notations, which are not the same thing as the vowel and cantilation pointings, and HOW FAR BACK the traditions associated with the meanings attached to these letter size changes and dot markings go. I.e., are they of interest or significance to Christians for understanding certain things about the Hebrew text - or do they postdate Christianity?
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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Sounds like a question for a Hebrew scholar. I don't have any to recommend. Former MVP Rosie Perera knows Dr. Bruce Waltke well. Maybe if you want to see if she would think he could answer, you could address a post to her. That's all I've got, but would be interested in the answer as well.
Like others, this information is totally new to me.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Eric Weiss said:
What I'd like to know is WHEN the Jews began writing the Torah and the other OT scrolls with these distinctive spellings/notations, which are not the same thing as the vowel and cantilation pointings, and HOW FAR BACK the traditions associated with the meanings attached to these letter size changes and dot markings go.
IIRC John Parsons website Hebrew for Christians (google it) has some information regarding this. I am not certain of John's sources, but he has a significant amount of data on the site.
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A google search on "Hebrew Orthography" gets you some information. Other pieces come from a search on cantilation marks. http://lakesideministries.com/TopicalStudies/Foundations/Manuscript_Transmission.htm gives you a framework to determine other likely searches.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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TCBlack said:
IIRC John Parsons website Hebrew for Christians (google it) has some information regarding this.
Checking this I searched that site for 'jot' and got the following reference to the very issue Eric raised and John Parson's reply. http://www.hebrew4christians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=151&t=3442 John's reply addresses Eric's question.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark Smith said:
Checking this I searched that site for 'jot' and got the following reference to the very issue Eric raised and John Parson's reply. http://www.hebrew4christians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=151&t=3442 John's reply addresses Eric's question.
I was intrigued by John's translations of " the smallest stroke of the smallest letter" rather than the NASB translation of "the smallest letter or stroke". If John is correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, then a tittle would be the slight downstroke of the "yod"
This question and the input from several users has been an interesting adventure this evening.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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I am curious about his claim that a letter that appears smaller and a letter that appears larger has special meaning in Hebrew.
Tittles are a class of other kinds of markings in the text. They include enlarged letters (bolded letters), letters made smaller (subscripted), gaps in the text (intentional spacings), and letters drawn in unique ways (elongated and reversed). As I said before, none of these are translated or even noted in English translations.
(via The Jots and Tittles of Moses / July 2004 | Lion and Lamb Ministries)
Does this actually occur? My exposure the Hebrew Bible has been using the BHS, and I have not encountered letters being different sizes. The examples he gives do not show actual manuscripts, the website uses a variation with font sizes.
Also specifically his claim that the letters themselves have a specific or deeper meaning. I am aware of gematria, but my exposure to that was in the numerical values of letters, not that the letters have a deeper meaning.
gematria. n. A Jewish method of interpreting the deeper meaning of words based on the numerical value of their individual letters. In both Hebrew and Greek, letters also serve as numbers. - Pocket Dictionary for the study of New Testament Greek, pg. 59
Examples from Link
The letter Hey means to bring forth or to reveal something. Normally, the letter is used to bring forth or show the glory of God. Abram’s name was changed to Abraham by adding the letter Hey. The same happened to his wife Sarai to Sarah. God’s name has two Heys in it: Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey. The disciples heard God speak concerning His own name in . I have glorified it and I will glorify it again.
A small Hey is saying the opposite of the glorification. Therefore, the second letter of this six letter Hebrew word is made small. It symbolizes the six days of creation and that on the second day (when the heavens were made) that a fall happened. It is speaking of the fall of HaSatan and his angels when they objected to Gods plan to take us as His bride.
(via The Jots and Tittles of Moses / July 2004 | Lion and Lamb Ministries)
The letter Nun means life (the quickening of life). It is a picture of a fish suddenly swimming away. The letter Nun here and its placement in the thirteen attributes of God’s mercy emphasized something about the tenth attribute. God preserves (keeps) the mercy that our Fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob received for us. We receive the benefit of our fathers for a thousand generations. It is about our heritage and our inheritance from our fathers. The enlarged letter is referencing an enlarged Yod in Num 14:18.
(via The Jots and Tittles of Moses / July 2004 | Lion and Lamb Ministries)
There are other examples…but I have never heard of the letters themselves having meanings as well. Is this some type or variation of gematria? Is it from a specific tradition within Judaism? Its just new to me and I am curious about it. Since he doesn’t actually cite any specific evidence that a "nun" means life. I didn’t know if he came up with it or if its based on an actual Jewish tradition. Has anyone else encountered this…is it a valid interpretation from within Judaism? He seems to be reading a mystical meaning back into the text, without any exegetical basis. His conclusion that the size and location of the letter "Hey" in Genesis means the fall of Satan took place on the second day of creation. I certainly wouldn't use it as part of the exegetical process. In the past did Jewish Rabbis use such a process?
Has anyone else encountered this in their studies?
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Eric Weiss said:
This Website http://lionlamb.net/v3/YAVOH-HeisComing/2004/07 provides numerous examples where the standard Hebrew text of the Old Testament has some larger and smaller than regular letters (e.g., Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 6:4) as well as dots over some letters (Deuteronomy 29:29). Some of these are noted in the Logos versions of BHS (like the dots in Deuteronomy 29:29) but the changed letter sizes are not.
WHEN did these orthographic things appear in the Hebrew text? Is there any evidence that they are in the Dead Sea Scrolls texts of these passages? Or were they done by the Masoretes? Any idea how far back the traditions about these particular things go - i.e., were they known to Jesus and Paul; did their Torahs have these orthographic characteristics?
(Some refer to these as "jots and tittles" apparently.)
As you probably noted in the MT of Deut 29.28, those dots are what is known as puncta extraordinaria.
(3) Puncta Extraordinaria. Supralinear (occasionally in combination with infralinear) points are found in fifteen places in the OT (e.g., Gen 33:4; Ps 27:13). While these points originated from scribal notations indicating that the elements thus highlighted should be deleted (a convention used in many Qumran texts), within the Masoretic corpus these symbols were reappropriated to indicate doubtful letters (cf. Butin 1906 and Talmon [in the 1969 reprint of Butin 1906] apud Butin and the explanation in ʾAbot R. Nat., version A, 34). Similar signs are found in Hellenistic texts (cf. Lieberman 1962: 43–46).The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. Edited by Freedman, David Noel, Gary A. Herion, David F. Graf et al. s.v. "Textual Criticism (Old Testament)" New York: Doubleday, 1992.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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The printing of the larger and smaller letters can be seen in the print edition of Biblia Hebraica Leningradensia and the British and Foreign Bible Society Hebrew Old Testament. The JPS TANAKH has the dots over the letters in Deuteronomy 29:29 but does not have the changed letter sizes (e.g., Genesis 1:1 bereshit; Deuteronomy 6:4 shama). So you have to look at hard copy editions to see where the larger and smaller letters are printed; both hard copy and e-versions have the dots over the letters, though; the print versions also have special spacings like the names of Haman's sons in Esther 9.
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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Eric Weiss said:
WHEN did these orthographic things appear in the Hebrew text? Is there any evidence that they are in the Dead Sea Scrolls texts of these passages? Or were they done by the Masoretes? Any idea how far back the traditions about these particular things go - i.e., were they known to Jesus and Paul; did their Torahs have these orthographic characteristics?
(Some refer to these as "jots and tittles" apparently.)
A good source of information on these matters can be found in a Logos resource at the following link: http://www.logos.com/product/3805/the-masorah-of-biblia-hebraica-stuttgartensia
Here are some trust worth links on the subject with images from Torah Scrolls:
- http://www.betemunah.org/letters.html
- http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/natlang/hebrew/hebrew_bible.html
- http://www.sofer.co.uk/html/large_letters.html
- http://www.sofer.co.uk/html/small_letters.html
There is no evidence of the use of large or small letters in the dead sea scroll and the use of these sometimes differs in various codices. However, most if not all of the Sefer Torah I have are uniform in this aspect. Yemeni Torah Sefer and Sephardi Torah Sefer differ in regards to the use of crowns above letters.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Eric Weiss said:
The printing of the larger and smaller letters can be seen in the print edition of Biblia Hebraica Leningradensia and the British and Foreign Bible Society Hebrew Old Testament. The JPS TANAKH has the dots over the letters in Deuteronomy 29:29 but does not have the changed letter sizes (e.g., Genesis 1:1 bereshit; Deuteronomy 6:4 shama). So you have to look at hard copy editions to see where the larger and smaller letters are printed; both hard copy and e-versions have the dots over the letters, though; the print versions also have special spacings like the names of Haman's sons in Esther 9.
Thanks Eric, I didn't notice or remember that, but then I haven't used a hard copy in ages (mine is in storage somewhere). I'd still be curious about it having the meanings he indicates.
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Philana Crouch said:Eric Weiss said:
The printing of the larger and smaller letters can be seen in the print edition of Biblia Hebraica Leningradensia and the British and Foreign Bible Society Hebrew Old Testament. The JPS TANAKH has the dots over the letters in Deuteronomy 29:29 but does not have the changed letter sizes (e.g., Genesis 1:1 bereshit; Deuteronomy 6:4 shama). So you have to look at hard copy editions to see where the larger and smaller letters are printed; both hard copy and e-versions have the dots over the letters, though; the print versions also have special spacings like the names of Haman's sons in Esther 9.
Thanks Eric, I didn't notice or remember that, but then I haven't used a hard copy in ages (mine is in storage somewhere). I'd still be curious about it having the meanings he indicates.
I bought a Biblia Sacra Utriusque Testamenti which is a Hebrew OT and a Greek NT bound together which is what I take to church. It's interesting to try to keep up with the readings (no, I still can't do it). It does have all of the features of the regular print editions though on a slightly smaller scale. Now if they'd only print it on regular bible paper—it's kind of chunky.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George, I've wanted one of those, but I'd prefer a leather cover to the hardback. I have to say the print is a bit small from the samples I've seen. Is that a fair assessment?
I figure it's a valid question since you're only 39.
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TCBlack said:
George, I've wanted one of those, but I'd prefer a leather cover to the hardback. I have to say the print is a bit small from the samples I've seen. Is that a fair assessment?
I figure it's a valid question since you're only 39.
Not yet, you'll need to wait until my birthday to say that (and the next day I'll be 38 again).
I wouldn't say the print is particularly small. My complaint is that it's almost 3" thick. Yes, a leather binding would be nice—say, chartreuse (just kidding, black).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Philana Crouch said:Eric Weiss said:
The printing of the larger and smaller letters can be seen in the print edition of Biblia Hebraica Leningradensia and the British and Foreign Bible Society Hebrew Old Testament. The JPS TANAKH has the dots over the letters in Deuteronomy 29:29 but does not have the changed letter sizes (e.g., Genesis 1:1 bereshit; Deuteronomy 6:4 shama). So you have to look at hard copy editions to see where the larger and smaller letters are printed; both hard copy and e-versions have the dots over the letters, though; the print versions also have special spacings like the names of Haman's sons in Esther 9.
Thanks Eric, I didn't notice or remember that, but then I haven't used a hard copy in ages (mine is in storage somewhere). I'd still be curious about it having the meanings he indicates.
Also, Deuteronomy 29:29 is 29:28 in the Hebrew text, as verse 29:1 in Hebrew is verse 29:2 in English.
Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)
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BKMitchell said:
There is no evidence of the use of large or small letters in the dead sea scroll and the use of these sometimes differs in various codices. However, most if not all of the Sefer Torah I have are uniform in this aspect. Yemeni Torah Sefer and Sephardi Torah Sefer differ in regards to the use of crowns above letters.
But there is evidence for the use of paleo-Hebrew.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
But there is evidence for the use of paleo-Hebrew.
That, is good point and it is certainly true in regards to the tetragrammaton. Now, being that the Paleo-Hebrew script is available in Unicode it would be nice if Logos updated their Qumran Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls Database to reflect that as well.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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