Theology/Denomination Tags
Comments
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Is it currently possible to do searches within denominations?
Assuming you mean searches within content annotated for a denomination (typically the denomination of the author) ...
I missed one: some resources have a "subject reference" (Factbook) categorization indicating their denomination, which you can find on the left sidebar in Library > Factbook (like https://ref.ly/logos4/Library?SelectedFacetTermsEscaped=LibraryGroup_SubjectReferences_BeliefSystem%7cBelief%2520System%7cLibraryTermSubjectReference_bk.%2525Anglicanism_Belief%257CAnglicanism). I believe you could make a Collection for those resources with a given subject reference tag, and then search within that collection. That's not quite the same as what you're asking for, since you have to manage this yourself, but perhaps it's a reasonable workaround depending on your use case.
We have no denomination annotation of content within a resource, and no plans to do so anytime soon as far as I know.
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I started the Theology/Denominations Tags project to show what could be done, in the hope that Logos would take it on. Some years later, Logos have taken it on. Here are some thoughts on the progress they have made with it so far.
What Is Working Well
Fullness: The Logos Factbook entries go beyond the initial project in some ways. The data/information about people stretches to bibliographies, links to works by and about the people, and is broken down in helpful ways (media, sermons, etc.)
Information on J I Packer is great, with instantly available pictures of him at different stages of life. Similarly, there is a wealth of information on George Abbot, a former Archbishop of Canterbury, with linked dictionary entries, although he isn’t categorised as Anglican, never mind Church of England, despite being listed as an Archbishop of Canterbury. Clearly, the entry has seen some focus, as it gives his dates of birth and death, going beyond the dictionary entries, which give only his year of birth and year of death.
Denomination: There was initially a reluctance to add much granularity. My project tried to capture Stream (e.g., Anglican) and Denomination (e.g., Church of England). It looks like this is now available for many people. Thanks, Logos.
Subject vs Belief System: There was a question regarding whether I should have categorised resources about the Church of England under Church of England. I suggested that this was a different category from resources coming from Church of England authors. It is great to see that Logos reflects that difference, with “Subject: Church of England” quite different from “Belief System: Church of England”.
What Isn’t Working So Well
Country Missing: It would have been great if place could have featured for people. For some people, this may require multiple entries, as people move, but most people have at least a Main Country, as in my initial project spreadsheet.
Data Hard to Find: While it is easy to find authors from the Anglican Church of Kenya. (There’s only one: John Mbiti – type “Anglican” in the factbook filter text box, click on “Anglican Church of Kenya”.) It is harder to find authors from the Church of England, as there are so many. (There is no category under People, so type “England”, click on Church of England”.) It seems you have to click “More” many times before you can see Gordon J Wenham, for example, under Authors on the Church of England page.
Levels: Authors listed under Anglicanism only includes authors without any further granularity. Hence, it does not include John Mbiti or the hundreds of authors in the Church of England, despite them being Anglican.
Data Issues
Clearly the data is incomplete and questionable in places, presumably having been automatically generated. For example:
Douglas A – from Foster, G.H.& D.A. (2015) Renewing the world. Abilene, TX: Leafwood Publishers.
His name is Douglas A Foster, rather than Douglas A. The citation is misleading, as the book is by Gary Holloway and Douglas A Foster. The information page shows that it is by Foster Holloway, Gary Holloway and Douglas A. What chance did the automatic process have with that kind of data accuracy?
Cohen A – curiously this person (?) has no associated media, works or anything else, and is simply listed as a person, neither male nor female, and with no other bibliographic information. It’s hard to trace how this “person” was created.
Lin Aaron – co-wrote Afghanistan at transition: the lessons of the longest war, which is available from https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/75423/afghanistan-at-transition-the-lessons-of-the-longest-war Clearly, the entries are not limited to theology, biblical studies or religion.
“London, England”, Wales and Scotland are in the Factbook filter list, but not England, and there are more entries for London, Wales and Scotland added together than there are for Great Britain – another granularity issue?
In the library, if I filter on Belief System: Lutheranism, I don’t even get all of Luther’s Works, never mind many of the other Lutheran authors in my library.
It is unclear why “Assembly at Glasgow” comes under “Subject: Church of England”. Glasgow is not in England, there is no mention of the Church of England in the resource and the reference to “General and Synodical Assemblies, Presbyteries, and Sessions” in the resource points to the non-Anglican, but Presbyterian, system it relates to, within the Church of Scotland.
These are only a few illustrative cases of the many problems caused by poor data.
Requests
Resource information: In the Library, clicking a resource allowed the Stream and Denomination to be seen in the initial project, as it also did in the Information screen for each resource. This was really helpful. It would be even better if Logos displayed the header data for each author on the information screen. For example, for Warren W Wiersbe books, it could display “May 16, 1929 - . Baptist, Author, Man, Pastor, Teacher. 1929 –“, as per his Factbook entry. This would be really helpful.
Searches Using Factbook Entries: Can Belief System and other Factbook categories (e.g., Person: Bishop, Person: Abolitionist, Places: London) be used for searches? If not, can these be added?
Composite Filters/Searches: The project spreadsheet enabled a (relatively) quick search to be done for resources by Lutheran women, or Baptists born between 1800 and 1900. I’m not sure how these kinds of composite searches can be done with the current Factbook, or elsewhere in Logos. Could this be made possible?
With these three facilities and a great deal of work on the data, the initial project could probably be safely retired, although it would still be good if Logos displayed the data more transparently, so that searching, sorting and gaining an overview of the data were easier.
Verdict
Getting Better, Still Some Way to Go
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Thanks Andrew for kickstarting this project, and for these helpful comments. Some selective responses:
- "Country missing": this doesn't current fit our data schema, but longer term I hope we'll add it.
- "Data hard to find": Factbook doesn't have the kind of general query mechanism that would support queries like "show authors associated with the Anglican church" (walking down into the various denominations associated with this tradition), and some of those results might be lengthy enough that simply displaying them would be a poor experience.
- I agree that it should be easier to get information about authors from the Library Panel: I'll pass that suggestion along to Mark Barnes, our product manager.
- We have plans to improve Factbook's data on roles like Bishop, Abolitionist etc.: stay tuned.
- We're doing ongoing work to improve the quality of Person records: we know there's both a lot of missing and incorrect information. We now have well over 100k authors in our dataset, so it's a massive task.
Overall, the best way to improve the data for now is to report errors you find. There's been a lot of helpful feedback in this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/195544/1202561.aspx. You can also email data@faithlife.com.
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Thanks Andrew for kickstarting this project, and for these helpful comments. Some selective responses:
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Thanks, Sean. Very helpful.
One of the most limiting issues is that filters are only positive: Resources with this attribute
I don't suppose it would be possible to include negative filters: Resources without this attribute (e.g., Anglican but not Church of England, or just NOT Subjects:Fiction)
This would be incredibly useful on the website, as well as in Logos.
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One of the most limiting issues is that filters are only positive: Resources with this attribute
I don't suppose it would be possible to include negative filters: Resources without this attribute (e.g., Anglican but not Church of England, or just NOT Subjects:Fiction)
This would be incredibly useful on the website, as well as in Logos.
The ANDNOT operator works in the Search and Library panels. You can put a * in front of ANDNOT in order to functionally create an initial NOT.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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The ANDNOT operator works in the Search and Library panels. You can put a * in front of ANDNOT in order to functionally create an initial NOT.
Thanks, SineNomine. That appears to work well. It would be great if the graphical interface supported it as well (a tick or a cross next to each option in the filter?), but I can live with the text version.
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Composite Filters/Searches: The project spreadsheet enabled a (relatively) quick search to be done for resources by Lutheran women, or Baptists born between 1800 and 1900. I’m not sure how these kinds of composite searches can be done with the current Factbook, or elsewhere in Logos. Could this be made possible?
There would be a lot of benefit in being able to search Factbook by property or category - not just for the data in this project, but also to allow searches for things like "All the mountains in Judah", and "All the women from Galilee". It's fairly difficult to pull off simply, - but it's definitely under consideration.
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Since Logos took on this data, I stopped updating the Denominations and Theology spreadsheet, but I’ve incorporated data from this project in another project, Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance (feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance), so that the influence of denomination, theology, country, etc can be seen in Bible Interpretation Choices.In doing so, I updated some entries and added nearly two hundred more, taking the total to well over 7000, so I thought I’d publish the updated spreadsheet here in case anyone finds it useful, especially as this project had over 1200 users at one point.
Here’s the 2023 version of the spreadsheet: Denominations and Theology 2023.xlsm
(Edit: For some reason this file is uploading as a .docx file, rather that the .xlsm file that it really is, so you may need to remove the final .docx from the file name to open it. Thanks, Mattillo, for pointing this out.)
If you haven’t voted for the Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance idea, you can do so at the link above, or find out more at: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/208162.aspx
Thanks.
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I hope in final analysis that a category of "Church of Christ" will be considered. Church of Christ is not a "Calvinistic Theology" nor of "Catholic persuasion" nor of "Reformed theology" like many suppose. And I do know of others (Church of Christ) besides myself that are on Logos. I know of schools of preaching that use Logos in their teaching of preachers and such.
It would be nice to see a category of "Church of Christ" in the listings as such.... [8-|]
It can be confusing to study from books promoting other doctrines... and I appreciate all the groups having books that support their theology and doctrines.... I just find "Church of Christ" being expected to study those theologies and doctrines as there are very, very, few resources from writers of the Church of Christ theologies and doctrines.
Please consider this.....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Thanks, xnman. I'm not sure whether this is a request for me or for Logos, but the problem has always been defining "Church of Christ". As can be seen from the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Christ), it can refer to a number of different groups.
Within the spreadsheet, which provides rules for creating collections, you can find "Churches of Christ" (e.g. Michael Whitworth), "Churches of Christ in Christian Union" (e.g. David Case) and "Christian churches and churches of Christ" (e.g. Barry L. Davis). If none of these is what you are looking for, then you may need to be more specific, and it may help to mention authors available in Logos, as this has been the guide for the spreadsheet.
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Since Logos took on this data, I stopped updating the Denominations and Theology spreadsheet, but I’ve incorporated data from this project in another project, Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance (feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance), so that the influence of denomination, theology, country, etc can be seen in Bible Interpretation Choices.In doing so, I updated some entries and added nearly two hundred more, taking the total to well over 7000, so I thought I’d publish the updated spreadsheet here in case anyone finds it useful, especially as this project had over 1200 users at one point.
Here’s the 2023 version of the spreadsheet: Denominations and Theology 2023.xlsm
If you haven’t voted for the Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance idea, you can do so at the link above, or find out more at: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/208162.aspx
Thanks.
In case anyone else had this issue... when I downloaded the new file it was a .xlsm.docx. Word refused to open it so I had to remove the docx to open in excel
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Thanks, Mattillo.
I've tried to re-upload it, but it still thinks it's a Word document for some reason. I'll happily fix it if anyone has any idea how.
It failed to upload as an attachment (I suspect it's too big), so I used the Insert Image from Amber option, if that's any help.
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Hi, maybe you simply try to rename the file type to .xlsm instaed of .xlsm.docx
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I believe you can upload compressed or .zip files. I feel like I’ve seen those before but maybe I’m losing my mind.
no worries either way just a note for those who download it and don’t think to remove the .docx before opening
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Andrew, for "Church of Christ" AND/OR "Christian Church (Not Disciples), I would suggest the various publishers, such as "Standard Publishing", "College Press", "Abilene Publishing," or whatever the actual publisher name is. I would also think that a polling of the people for our "three main" branches for a listing of some of our favorite authors are, i.e., Alexander Campbell, Max Lucado, Bob Russell, Jack Cottrell, etc., and that should help "define" the Restoration Movement. Personally, I would love to see Alexander Campbells, "Millennial Harbinger" in Logos, I have a set in print format and his "The Christian Baptist."
We already have several from Standard Publishing, but there are so many more that aren't included, yet!
We already have several from College Press (CP), but there is always room for more. One such collection that CP has in print that I would love to see in Logos is "What the Bible Says about:..." They are a collection of commentaries on a particular subject/topic rather than a commentary on a particular Bible reference. Another set that has been asked for previously from CP is "The Bible Study Textbook Series." At one time it was in Pre-Pub (and it still may be, but I haven't checked in a very long time...here's to hoping that with these suggestions and the "polling" of our group, you may find a veritable treasure trove of our "non"- denominational, denomination! [:D]0 -
Sorry, wrong forum entry, ignore.
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Andrew, for "Church of Christ" AND/OR "Christian Church (Not Disciples), I would suggest the various publishers, such as "Standard Publishing", "College Press", "Abilene Publishing," or whatever the actual publisher name is. I would also think that a polling of the people for our "three main" branches for a listing of some of our favorite authors are, i.e., Alexander Campbell, Max Lucado, Bob Russell, Jack Cottrell, etc., and that should help "define" the Restoration Movement. Personally, I would love to see Alexander Campbells, "Millennial Harbinger" in Logos, I have a set in print format and his "The Christian Baptist."...
Thanks, Bill, but from what you have written, it seems that there are already Church of Christ authors in the spreadsheet (about nine posts above this one - first March 2023 post). This seems really to be a request to add more books to Logos from that tradition, rather than to include the tradition in this project.
If you were able to look at the authors listed under Restoration movement in the spreadsheet and let me know which branch they should be listed under, rather than leaving them as simply Restoration Movement, I would happily add this data and thus improve the spreadsheet.
Thanks again.
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Thanks, xnman. I'm not sure whether this is a request for me or for Logos, but the problem has always been defining "Church of Christ". As can be seen from the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Christ), it can refer to a number of different groups.
Within the spreadsheet, which provides rules for creating collections, you can find "Churches of Christ" (e.g. Michael Whitworth), "Churches of Christ in Christian Union" (e.g. David Case) and "Christian churches and churches of Christ" (e.g. Barry L. Davis). If none of these is what you are looking for, then you may need to be more specific, and it may help to mention authors available in Logos, as this has been the guide for the spreadsheet.
Given the many different teaches of the Baptist church... is it hard to define Baptist? Same with Catholics?
And yet Church of Christ is specifically left out... Interesting.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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And yet Church of Christ is specifically left out.
As are Hussites, Quakers, Armenian Apostolic, Jehovah's Witnesses . . .
I agree that the Church of Christ as a composite of its various threads does deserve to have its own base package but that does require that those within the group be willing to purchase resources from all the related publishers. Otherwise, there is an insufficient market I suspect. Keep on pushing for it as it is one of several missing pieces.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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And yet Church of Christ is specifically left out.
As are Hussites, Quakers, Armenian Apostolic, Jehovah's Witnesses . . .
I agree that the Church of Christ as a composite of its various threads does deserve to have its own base package but that does require that those within the group be willing to purchase resources from all the related publishers. Otherwise, there is an insufficient market I suspect. Keep on pushing for it as it is one of several missing pieces.
Thanks MJ. And most definitely no market if there is nothing to buy..... [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Given the many different teaches of the Baptist church... is it hard to define Baptist? Same with Catholics?
Defining "Catholics" for the purpose of creating and then selling them Verbum packages is actually very easy. If in communion with Pope Francis (which is a juridically verifiable fact), then Catholic. (If also members of the relevant Ordinariates, then "Ordinariate Catholic". If instead members of any of the 20+ churches in communion with Pope Francis other than the Latin church, then also "Eastern Catholic".)
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Given the many different teaches of the Baptist church... is it hard to define Baptist? Same with Catholics?
when it comes baptists, they did buy out a Baptist Bible software company and got all (assuming) the publisher contracts associated with that.
I think you’re looking for more c of c titles, and this project is about better identifying the theological affiliation of existing books.
for what it’s worth, the building we meet at is a church of Christ of prophecy building. they graciously share it with us Baptists at a price we can afford. To their credit they are just glad the gospel is still going out in that community. which I love.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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And most definitely no market if there is nothing to buy.
Plymouth Brethren rate a line in the store browser with only 10 books. Stone-Campbell exceeds that. (and no, in the PNW, there is no pejorative sense implied).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Given the many different teaches of the Baptist church... is it hard to define Baptist? Same with Catholics?
when it comes baptists, they did buy out a Baptist Bible software company and got all (assuming) the publisher contracts associated with that.
I think you’re looking for more c of c titles, and this project is about better identifying the theological affiliation of existing books.
for what it’s worth, the building we meet at is a church of Christ of prophecy building. they graciously share it with us Baptists at a price we can afford. To their credit they are just glad the gospel is still going out in that community. which I love.
I'm not trying to push Church of Christ above others.... Just would like it included... which as of now... it is not.
I too am thankful for all that proclaim and uphold the name of Jesus.
And for what it's worth... Church of Christ is different than Stone-Campbell movement. Stone-Campbell were part of the Reformation (or some call the Restoration) period...
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Stone-Campbell were part of the Reformation (or some call the Restoration) period
Stone-Campbell were part of the (American) Restoration Movement beginning in the Second Great Awakening (early 19th century). This is quite separate from the Reformation which was primarily a European phenomenon.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Its been a few years; but from what I remember... well let me take a step back. There was the protestant reformation, and then the restoration, which are two different periods of time. The protestant reformation is widely accepted by protestants - except landmark baptists that trace their history back to john the baptist through a lot of different generally baptistic (and not always evangelical) groups. The restoration is seen by people within that movement as a sort of step 2 after the reformation. EG it was seen by members of the movement as a returning to the scriptural beliefs of Jesus from the corrupted baptist views of the 19th century. Is there then a branch of C of C that traces their history back through john the baptist as well? or did i misunderstand? Is your c of c part of the tradition that stresses ecumenicism?I'm not trying to push Church of Christ above others.... Just would like it included... which as of now... it is not.
I too am thankful for all that proclaim and uphold the name of Jesus.
And for what it's worth... Church of Christ is different than Stone-Campbell movement. Stone-Campbell were part of the Reformation (or some call the Restoration) period...
My baptist history class talked about stone, and campbell breaking away, and then later more or less joining forces for the restoration.
But what I've learned from the CofC of Prophecy is that its not monolithic, and there are many many splinters within the denomination stream.
I think the answer is still going to be hounding the various inlets for new books, until they start adding them. But you'll want to create a list, and send them in a few at a time, make user voices for them, email your sales people asking for them, and so on.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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My view of the Stone-Campbell movement.
My Mennonite great-great-great grandfather joined the Stone-Campbell movement in Tennessee. His family along with several other "Pennsylvania Dutch" then moved to MIssouri and then on to the West Coast. The brother of my great-great grandfather followed his brother to south central Washington where the brother founded more than six Church of Christ congregations in Oregon and Washington. My Grandfather went to a Stone-Campbell seminary that with the split became Disciples of Christ. The various churches that I knew (3 in the valley and one in Oregon) went their separate ways - two used musical instruments, one had a female preacher from the late 1940's on, etc. As a matter of dogma, the Churches are the church founded by Jesus Christ although admittedly there are sparse historical records of them. However, as a matter of practical visibility, they considered themselves a part of the Stone-Campbell/restoration/2nd great awakening movement. I never heard the term "Campbellite" nor of a pejorative sense to "Stone-Campbell" until these forums. Rather, we used the term "Stone-Campbell" as an insider term for all the churches and colleges that we considered to be "like-minded". And, yes, my great grandfather Church of Christ-er married an Irish Catholic; my grandfather Church-of-Christ preacher married a Finnish Lutheran; my father Church of Christ deacon-elder married a mainline Protestant. That's the history of the group as my family lived it. Not a comprehensive history but one I know to be accurate.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I didn't know Stone-Campbell was used derisively, my intent isn't to offend. I hope I haven't.My view of the Stone-Campbell movement.
My Mennonite great-great-great grandfather joined the Stone-Campbell movement in Tennessee. His family along with several other "Pennsylvania Dutch" then moved to MIssouri and then on to the West Coast. The brother of my great-great grandfather followed his brother to south central Washington where the brother founded more than six Church of Christ congregations in Oregon and Washington. My Grandfather went to a Stone-Campbell seminary that with the split became Disciples of Christ. The various churches that I knew (3 in the valley and one in Oregon) went their separate ways - two used musical instruments, one had a female preacher from the late 1940's on, etc. As a matter of dogma, the Churches are the church founded by Jesus Christ although admittedly there are sparse historical records of them. However, as a matter of practical visibility, they considered themselves a part of the Stone-Campbell/restoration/2nd great awakening movement. I never heard the term "Campbellite" nor of a pejorative sense to "Stone-Campbell" until these forums. Rather, we used the term "Stone-Campbell" as an insider term for all the churches and colleges that we considered to be "like-minded". And, yes, my great grandfather Church of Christ-er married an Irish Catholic; my grandfather Church-of-Christ preacher married a Finnish Lutheran; my father Church of Christ deacon-elder married a mainline Protestant. That's the history of the group as my family lived it. Not a comprehensive history but one I know to be accurate.
The version of baptist history that I learned did trace their roots back to the Baptist denomination though. Stone for instance had been anglican and methodist, then Baptist while attending a presbyterian college/seminary. The older Campbell was presbyterian, turned baptist. His son Alexander joined him. For about two decades both were baptist as part of several different baptist associations. But I'm unclear whether then some of the Church of Christ folks identify with landmarkism or not. I could call our churches landlord and ask about his particular splinter. But it wouldn't be a comprehensive picture of the movement. The timing coincides with the popularity of landmarkism IIRC which was poorly received by the baptists so much so that they had multiple resolutions speaking out against it at the conventions of the mid 1800s and onward. Though there are still those that promote the trail of blood in the 6 SBC seminaries to this day.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Though there are still those that promote the trail of blood
Thanks for introducing this to me. I found a great diagram on wikipedia. I found it amusingly anachronistic in that it used modern names for early groups with some similar beliefs e.g. Puritans in the 400's AD but this equation serves the purpose well.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I do so with the caveat that Carroll - author of the book "The Trail of Blood" however well meaning, seemed to either be unaware (at best) of things we know now, or glossed over them (at worst). It doesn't hold up under historiography. Some of the groups hated each other and tried to exterminate through murder other groups on the list. It seems unlikely that they would have willingly passed the baton one group to the next.
But who knows! There are a lot of good Godly people that hold to it.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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