Logos 5 Release - Sooner than You Think
I'm guessing the Logos 5 release will be "sooner than you think."
I know that many users felt Logos 4 was released too soon, and I'm sure some will think that of Logos 5, too. So I want to give you our reasons in advance, so at least the beta testers will have come to grips with it by then. :-)
Logos 5 doesn't have a long list of "things that are missing" from the previous version. So there are fewer existing expectations to meet.
Logos 5 contains some very large, very important new data sets. We've been working on some of these for three years, and it's time to get them out to the world. Others are newer -- and by some definitions incomplete (in some cases, theoretically never complete) -- but still very useful in their current form. For example, people are now completely tagged, including every referring expression and place where they are the implied subject. But this is only for the 66 book canon. The timeline data contains thousands of events, and is linked directly into many books, but there are a near-infinite number of events, and thousands of books in our system that could get explicit event linking. I expect work will continue and updates will download for years.
It's time to refresh our base packages; we have new content we want to get out (including some core text editions never-before-available), and we have publishers who want their content added, and others who want it removed, from our base collections.
Like Logos 4, Logos 5 will have many no-cost updates and improvements; we have a long list of small features, minor tweaks, requested improvements, etc. that aren't going to make the first cut, but which will follow in the coming months.
Shipping Logos 5 now doesn't mean we consider this the "final release." Development will be ongoing.
Since this isn't a major platform re-write, and we haven't made fundamental changes to architecture, we expect that the update will go smoothly; we really appreciate the feedback here in the beta forum, and we're working hard to address the issues and bugs brought up. But a few of these things are "annoyances remaining from Logos 4", and I can't promise we'll address them all before releasing Logos 5. We won't stop working on improving then, though, and after releasing 5 we will have the major new features mostly out of the way and be able to take some more time polishing and tweaking in response to user feedback.
Could we hold Logos 5 another year and "get everything right" and optimize and re-write and tune and polish? Yes. But the distance from here to there is still a year, and holding Logos 5 won't speed that up; it'll just keep the new content, new features, and new books out of everyone's hands longer.
And, importantly, shipping now will let us start bringing in income against the three years of content development and coding we've been doing since shipping Logos 4. This is an internal argument that only means something to us, not the users, but if you want us to be here for you in the future, we need to ship major releases at least this often (if not more often). Despite the web, downloads, etc. large "pro" software packages like ours are still funded by an upgrade cycle model. And it's been three years.
The good news is, since Logos 5 is built on Logos 4 and moves forward from it, there shouldn't be the "missing features" concern of Logos 4. Of course, you can choose to stay on Logos 4 anyway -- just like you could choose to stay on Logos 3 -- but in this case you don't give anything up in your primary tool if you move to 5. It's all there, just with more great tools and content.
Our team is working very hard to get Logos 5 done, and released far enough before Christmas (which still drives our strongest sales quarter) to put it at the top of everyone's list. :-)
-- Bob
P.S. A specific example: We've been writing a new notes editor, based of our book display engine, for many months. It's already shipping in the iOS app -- it's how we let you edit rich-text formatted notes on the iPhone. But putting it on the desktop requires more functionality, interface, etc. (We don't let you DO rich text formatting on the iPhone, but will on the desktop.) Most importantly, it requires a lot of testing to make sure it doesn't "eat" anyone's existing notes. (Example: Notes don't support tables, and have no table editing user interface. But some users have used the paste loop-hole to get tables into their notes. Switching notes editors from the built-in editor on WPF / Mac to our own means we have to make sure we don't munge tables, which may be in a completely different layout model (and for which we still don't have an editing UI).
The new notes editor is an important upgrade, but it's "invisible" to most users. Many users don't take notes, and many who do don't do anything fancy or complicated; they just do some highlights and type some short plain text.
We're not confident that the new editor will be ready in time, and we want it to be thoroughly tested. So it won't be in Logos 5.0, but will follow shortly after (a couple months, I'm guessing) in an update.
Holding the new notes editor, but still shipping Logos 5, doesn't take anyone "backwards". And it'll still be part of Logos 5, just not in the first release.
Comments
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Sounds good to me, but I'm glad you told Martha all this, and I didn't have to [;)]
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Bob Pritchett said:
I'm guessing the Logos 5 release will be "sooner than you think."
Why will no one be surprised?
I hope that you get good buzz on the release. Right now there are obvious issues to deal with. Not tune and polish issues. Don't crash issues.
Bob Pritchett said:Logos 5 contains some very large, very important new data sets.
I anticipate the new databases will gather praise, as well as some of the new interface tweaks, guides, tools, and search capabilities.
Bob Pritchett said:others who want it removed
Sad. We can only hope for the best on our end.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Bob Pritchett said:
Could we hold Logos 5 another year and "get everything right" and optimize and re-write and tune and polish? Yes. But the distance from here to there is still a year, and holding Logos 5 won't speed that up; it'll just keep the new content, new features, and new books out of everyone's hands longer.
This is a key concept that will help most users feel good about the upgrade.
I'd suggest repeating this idea with the L5 release announcement
Bob Pritchett said:And, importantly, shipping now will let us start bringing in income against the three years of content development and coding we've been doing since shipping Logos 4. This is an internal argument that only means something to us, not the users, but if you want us to be here for you in the future, we need to ship major releases at least this often (if not more often). Despite the web, downloads, etc. large "pro" software packages like ours are still funded by an upgrade cycle model. And it's been three years.
This will be a challenge. Here's why. Many of the items purchased for L4 had and continue to have an asterisk. I'm especially thinking of the NIV and NLT OT reverse interlinears, but there may be other items as well. Users would need to be assured that they do not have to pay again to have those promises met. There will likely be some L4 users who couldn't afford an upgrade or cross-grade this year (money is tight for me, for example, since we're in the process of building a home), or who simply won't want to make the change, who would want that assurance. I think they would have a right to expect Logos to make good on its promises.
I'd suggest carefully thinking this through and strongly and clearly voicing support for unfinished promised items with L4.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Bob Pritchett said:
I'm guessing the Logos 5 release will be "sooner than you think."
I actually expected it to be released in early November
Bob Pritchett said:Logos 5 doesn't have a long list of "things that are missing" from the previous version. So there are fewer existing expectations to meet.
I agree. Probably the greatest expectation I have is that it works without a lot of crashes, and does not require a series of work-arounds in order to use the features. Some of the new tools will solve that problem.
Bob Pritchett said:Like Logos 4, Logos 5 will have many no-cost updates and improvements; we have a long list of small features, minor tweaks, requested improvements, etc. that aren't going to make the first cut, but which will follow in the coming months.
Shipping Logos 5 now doesn't mean we consider this the "final release." Development will be ongoing.
Don't let marketing "oversell it". The old adage "better to undersell and over deliver than oversell and under deliver" applies here. Many times that is perception and sometimes perception is not reality. But for the customer perception is reality on both sides of that equation.
Bob Pritchett said:Could we hold Logos 5 another year and "get everything right" and optimize and re-write and tune and polish? Yes. But the distance from here to there is still a year, and holding Logos 5 won't speed that up; it'll just keep the new content, new features, and new books out of everyone's hands longer.
And, importantly, shipping now will let us start bringing in income against the three years of content development and coding we've been doing since shipping Logos 4. This is an internal argument that only means something to us, not the users, but if you want us to be here for you in the future, we need to ship major releases at least this often (if not more often). Despite the web, downloads, etc. large "pro" software packages like ours are still funded by an upgrade cycle model. And it's been three years.
Do what you need to do to stay in business and continue to provide superior Bible Study Software
Bob Pritchett said:P.S. A specific example: We've been writing a new notes editor, based of our book display engine, for many months. It's already shipping in the iOS app -- it's how we let you edit rich-text formatted notes on the iPhone. But putting it on the desktop requires more functionality, interface, etc. (We don't let you DO rich text formatting on the iPhone, but will on the desktop.) Most importantly, it requires a lot of testing to make sure it doesn't "eat" anyone's existing notes. (Example: Notes don't support tables, and have no table editing user interface. But some users have used the paste loop-hole to get tables into their notes. Switching notes editors from the built-in editor on WPF / Mac to our own means we have to make sure we don't munge tables, which may be in a completely different layout model (and for which we still don't have an editing UI).
The new notes editor is an important upgrade, but it's "invisible" to most users. Many users don't take notes, and many who do don't do anything fancy or complicated; they just do some highlights and type some short plain text.
We're not confident that the new editor will be ready in time, and we want it to be thoroughly tested. So it won't be in Logos 5.0, but will follow shortly after (a couple months, I'm guessing) in an update.
Holding the new notes editor, but still shipping Logos 5, doesn't take anyone "backwards". And it'll still be part of Logos 5, just not in the first release.
This will be a welcome feature for many. Much of the dissatisfaction with L4 has been the notes tool. I personnaly have noted significant improvement in the performance of the notes feature in L4. I hope when L5 is released we can see the same level of performance until the new editor is released.
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Bob Pritchett said:
I'm guessing the Logos 5 release will be "sooner than you think."
I understand your logic. Thus far, although there are still many crashes, partial features and small bugs, it seems to be more complete and stable than the early Logos 4 releases. I don't expect that all the bugs found in testing will be fixed but I hope that future releases will be obvious in their corrections of the bugs. One frequent complaint on the forums is the perception in L4 that longstanding bugs were not addressed.
The big question is "Do I have to send you another plea showing why notes MUST connect to more than one reference/resource?" or does the new note editor fill this major hole?
Bob Pritchett said:But this is only for the 66 book canon
[:(]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I, like others, aren't really surprised you plan to ship before Christmas and think this new release has lots of features which many will appreciate.
My question at the moment is about performance.
I have posted elsewhere about real performance problems I have with the alpha and have just asked for clarification as to whether this is expected.
If so, I would recommend making system spec requirements very clear.
Graham
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Bob Pritchett said:
I'm guessing the Logos 5 release will be "sooner than you think."
This is a main "selling point"Bob Pritchett said:Logos 5 doesn't have a long list of "things that are missing" from the previous version. So there are fewer existing expectations to meet.
"Everything in L4 plus more!" The features that "dropped" from L3 to L4 were (and are) a huge issue to many.
Explaining that these are contingent on the L5 upgrade becomes paramount IMHO.Bob Pritchett said:Logos 5 contains some very large, very important new data sets.
Bob Pritchett said:It's time to refresh our base packages; we have new content we want to get out (including some core text editions never-before-available), and we have publishers who want their content added, and others who want it removed, from our base collections.
Now I'm staring at Platinum again and wondering if I should bite the bullet now or wait a few weeks and jump later. Which one will make me happier? I don't know. Sigh. Finances tell me I WILL jump later. No matter what, it won't be today.
That is something that i at least am used to.Bob Pritchett said:Shipping Logos 5 now doesn't mean we consider this the "final release." Development will be ongoing.
Releasing it "sooner" isn't really going to make that big a difference to me. BUT if it is at all possible, could you let us know a little bit in advance so that we can shift the schedule around so I can be in the forums more that day or two? Right now I'm treading water as it is but I still want to help with the transition as best I can.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Graham Criddle said:
My question at the moment is about performance.
I am not at the office, and haven't been able to talk this over with the team, but my understanding is the overall Logos 5 should be faster, not slower. I believe there may be a temporary problem relating to how we're doing visuals in WPF that dramatically hurts performance on some video cards and not others, but I'm not up on the issue. I'll try to get a dev to weigh in on this.
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Thanks for keeping us in the loop. It helps to have an idea of your time table.
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The SBL Annual Meeting is November 17-20. It will be released before that date.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark Smith said:
Right now there are obvious issues to deal with. Not tune and polish issues. Don't crash issues.
Concur the Logos 5 Alpha designator applies; especially after a Logos 5 launch for new resource installation crashed on OS X 10.8.2
After Alpha crash tendencies are fixed, wonder if a public Logos 5 Beta is planned ?
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Bob Pritchett said:Graham Criddle said:
My question at the moment is about performance.
I am not at the office, and haven't been able to talk this over with the team, but my understanding is the overall Logos 5 should be faster, not slower. I believe there may be a temporary problem relating to how we're doing visuals in WPF that dramatically hurts performance on some video cards and not others, but I'm not up on the issue. I'll try to get a dev to weigh in on this.
Part of the visual restyling of Logos 5 used some WPF features that require hardware acceleration. It's possible that on a lower-end computer this will end up being software rendered, which may reduce the performance of the application. We will be removing these graphics features in an upcoming alpha.
Until then, without running detailed diagnostics on your computer, we can't determine why it is running so much slower. We'll let you know that the alpha that removes the hardware-accelerated graphics is released; please re-test then and if it's still slow, we'll take a closer look.
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Fredc said:
This will be a welcome feature for many. Much of the dissatisfaction with L4 has been the notes tool. I personnaly have noted significant improvement in the performance of the notes feature in L4. I hope when L5 is released we can see the same level of performance until the new editor is released.
Unfortunately, this probably won't happen. All the performance improvements from Logos 4 are already in the notes editor in Logos 5.
There are certain scenarios where WPF 4.5 renders text more slowly than WPF 3.5; it's possible that this could be slowing the notes editor down. (This could also be affected by software rendering; see my previous post.)
We are working on a replacement for WPF's text rendering that should be a lot faster, but it also may not be ready to ship in time. When we replace the current notes editor with our own editor, we will be able to benefit from these text rendering enhancements and should be able to deliver a good performance improvement (on Windows).
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Bradley -
Given the L5 is still in alpha, September is nearly done and November is just around the corner, I realize that the development team will not have time to make coffee. How many cases of Starbuck's Via coffee concentrate do you want me to buy from Costco?
MJ
[C]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hi Bob - thanks for responding.
Bob Pritchett said:but my understanding is the overall Logos 5 should be faster, not slower
This is great news.
Bob Pritchett said:I believe there may be a temporary problem relating to how we're doing visuals in WPF that dramatically hurts performance on some video cards and not others, but I'm not up on the issue. I'll try to get a dev to weigh in on this.
Thank you
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:Part of the visual restyling of Logos 5 used some WPF features that require hardware acceleration. It's possible that on a lower-end computer this will end up being software rendered, which may reduce the performance of the application. We will be removing these graphics features in an upcoming alpha.
Until then, without running detailed diagnostics on your computer, we can't determine why it is running so much slower. We'll let you know that the alpha that removes the hardware-accelerated graphics is released; please re-test then and if it's still slow, we'll take a closer look.
Hi Bradley - that sounds totally consistent with what I am seeing - looking forward to when this alpha is released
Thanks, Graham
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Bob Pritchett said:Graham Criddle said:
My question at the moment is about performance.
I am not at the office, and haven't been able to talk this over with the team, but my understanding is the overall Logos 5 should be faster, not slower. I believe there may be a temporary problem relating to how we're doing visuals in WPF that dramatically hurts performance on some video cards and not others, but I'm not up on the issue. I'll try to get a dev to weigh in on this.
I'm seeing a noticeable performance increase in most areas of the software, with very significant performance decreases in one or two areas (which I put down to it being alpha software). The performance increase was such that I even thought you'd done away with the .mstidx files, but somehow you've managed to improve it and keep the old architecture.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
should be able to deliver a good performance improvement (on Windows).
That last parenthetical statement is discouraging as notes in the Mac version are even worse than they are in Windows [:'(]
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That's horrible news. I'm willing to bet it specifically occurs in scenarios involving me. [:(]Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:There are certain scenarios where WPF 4.5 renders text more slowly than WPF 3.5
That is the counterpoint (albeit mixed) good news that should be heralded loudly. (on windows. Sorry Jack.)Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:We are working on a replacement for WPF's text rendering that should be a lot faster, but it also may not be ready to ship in time.
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TCBlack said:
That is the counterpoint (albeit mixed) good news that should be heralded loudly. (on windows. Sorry Jack.)Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:We are working on a replacement for WPF's text rendering that should be a lot faster, but it also may not be ready to ship in time.
I hope this will be a top priority
(for windows) that was for you Jack[;)]
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Jack Caviness said:Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
should be able to deliver a good performance improvement (on Windows).
That last parenthetical statement is discouraging as notes in the Mac version are even worse than they are in Windows
Sorry, these types of optimizations are highly platform specific. We try to improve cross-platform performance first, but in this case it's a fundamental WPF problem that only exists on Windows (and can only be improved on Windows).
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Fredc said:
(for windows) that was for you Jack
Justin is seeking employment. Perhaps he is interested in a trip to Alabama with a blunt object [8-|]
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
it's a fundamental WPF problem that only exists on Windows (and can only be improved on Windows).
Understand. However, typing notes in L5 Mac is even worse than in L4 Mac where it was atrocious.
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Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:
Part of the visual restyling of Logos 5 used some WPF features that require hardware acceleration. It's possible that on a lower-end computer this will end up being software rendered, which may reduce the performance of the application. We will be removing these graphics features in an upcoming alpha.
Until then, without running detailed diagnostics on your computer, we can't determine why it is running so much slower. We'll let you know that the alpha that removes the hardware-accelerated graphics is released; please re-test then and if it's still slow, we'll take a closer look.
Hi Bradley
Any guestimate as to when you will ship an alpha which removes the graphic features you mention?
Not trying to rush anything but I have just been studying and note taking for an hour and am finding L5 much too slow to do this sensibly.
Just trying to work out whether to boot L5 or L4 when I next do a similar study.
Thanks, Graham
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Bob Pritchett said:
I'm guessing the Logos 5 release will be "sooner than you think."
So, are we looking at a Reformation Day treat? Since we're already on beta 2 I am curious how long the beta cycle is anticipated to be.
Here is why I'm asking: As we get closer to RC but not quite there I'd like to install L5 on my main account on top of my existing L4 so I can get a feel for how the upgrade will go.
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TCBlack said:Bob Pritchett said:
I'm guessing the Logos 5 release will be "sooner than you think."
So, are we looking at a Reformation Day treat? Since we're already on beta 2 I am curious how long the beta cycle is anticipated to be.
Here is why I'm asking: As we get closer to RC but not quite there I'd like to install L5 on my main account on top of my existing L4 so I can get a feel for how the upgrade will go.
Thomas,
I installed L5 on top of L4 on my laptop and the installer simply removed the old L4 files it did not need. I guess I would call it seamless. I did already have net 4.5 on that machine, so I cannot speak to that part of the install.
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TCBlack said:
So, are we looking at a Reformation Day treat?
What I strongly hope is that Logos will quickly follow the initial release with one that cleans up many of the minor bugs brought over from L4. The attention to detail shows a pride in the product that is sorely missing in L4.. L5 can help restore Logos' reputation.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
The attention to detail is shows a pride in the product that is sorely missing in L4.. L5 can help restore Logos' reputation.
Beta 1 and Beta 2 did not fix the problems from Alpha 5 let alone any from L4. I'm concerned!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I would not expect "sooner than you think" to be before November. Maybe that will give the developers time to address the details before the release date. I hope so.
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