Automatic Sync of the Current Verse over multiple Bible Software Products (i.e Logos, The Word, e-Sw

Hi.
As most of you at Logos will know, using multiple bible software packages (Logos, TheWord, e-Sword, ...) involves repeating basic behaviour such as updating the current verse in each bible software package running via manually re-entering the current verse for each program.

I am proposing*** the development of an independent program from all bible software, which broadcasts the current verse to the other bible software which has subscribed to listen to this event.

*** I have created such a simple program at university which can easily be adjusted to do this.

All I require is:
1. The willingness of at least two bible software creators such as Logos, TheWord, e-Sword etc to be willing to create the basic 50-100 lines of code to do the client side socket code to: connect, send and recieve the Current Verse message, and react to it.
2. the informal long term commitment to support this.

Just as a note I would be willing to aid Logos to:
1. provide support to outline the client side code,
2. prove to Logos developers that the bible sync program does what it says and nothing more.

Would you at Logos willing to make Logos a supporter of this?
Thanks.
Luigi.

------------------------

( I have sent a copy of this to tech@logos.com - This is meant for a community opinion, and perhaps as a platform to reply back if Logos would prefer to reply via the Forum)

Update: The Word has agreed to participate, however obviously I need at least one more willing participant.

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Hi, Is this the most appropriate forum?

Here is a prototype UI

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/405801#Comment_405801

Is this the most appropriate forum?

You would be better off sending an email to Logos directly. You are unlikely to get a response from Logos here.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/405806#Comment_405806

Thanks in regard to your direction.

Just so you know though, I do own Logos 3 - So i hope that my post is not taken as spam.

thanks.

Edit: (I purchased "The Ultimate Bible Reference Library, Bible Essentials, and another commentary" - Budget I know)

And Previous to that I purchased the old school Logos Library System! :-)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/405827#Comment_405827

You should be able to do this already, with the Logos 4 COM API.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/405947#Comment_405947

Hi Mark,

thanks for the link, I looked and I observe the following differences:

1. there is not an event for the current verse changing in the com api.

The biblesync program will support two way syncing so I'd need a way to check the current verse changing in Logos, as well as update the Logos current verse when a user changes the current verse in another bible program.

2. The other thing is that I was hoping for all participants to use a simple socket connection as the IPC. (this is especially preferred seeing that COM is becoming less popular/phased out from what I read at Microsoft developer documentation site, and that from my understanding socket IPC would be a better cross platform choice).

- However I will look through the demo code to see if there is anything relating to a current verse event, - but I think that it'd be wiser if all the bible programs used the same IPC method, otherwise I'd have to create another whole area of code just for Logos, etc which kind of defeats the purpose of me offering a service for Logos for free.

What I mean is that I imagined that each Bible program team would want to promote that they have participated on thier website, and would like this to be stated on the bible sync website too, as a promotional positive. I just thought that it'd be good for every program which participates for this reason. I.e Logos offers cross platform compatability, and this is cross bible program compatability. I imagined that this is a huge promotional plus.

Also just as an update, there are now 3 bible products who are willing to participate:

theWord,
BibleAnalyzer, and
e-Sword.

I really do look foward to finding out if Logos will participate too, but im awaiting a reply at the moment.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406180#Comment_406180

there is not an event for the current verse changing in the com api.

It's the PanelChanged() method.

as well as update the Logos current verse when a user changes the current verse in another bible program.

That's CreateNavigationRequest() and Navigate().

The other thing is that I was hoping for all participants to use a simple socket connection as the IPC.

I doubt very much that will happen. I don't work for Logos and can't speak on their behalf, but I think that they would take the view that the COM API will already do what you want, so why not use it?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406208#Comment_406208

Hi Thanks again,

I'd probably be too disapointed to think that Logos didn't want to participate if it came to me having to create the code for them.

- also they know their code better than me, so it is logical that they code their side.

(if every bible program asked me to do the same for them instead of them participating, i'd have to be a jack of all trades and appreciated by none)

Does this make sense?

thanks for your time Mark.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406315#Comment_406315

I don't see this as an appropriate use of Logos resources given the number of outstanding issues and promises especially when it is something that can easily be done without Logos resources. Others, I'm sure, have different opinions.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406318#Comment_406318

Thanks for your two pennies MJ.

I appreciate that Logos is a buisness and that they have to cater for their Logos only users, however it seems impractical to assume that users will only ever use one bible program, (just like it is impractical to assume that all thier users will only ever use Windows).

This really wouldn't be hard to do too.

also as you note good use of Logos resources please consider that I am just a Uni student - with no job, and no goal of making money from this. I'm just doing this out of good will. However Logos benefits greatly from this as described in my 4th post.

Regards.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

One idea is starting a Logos User Voice suggestion => http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4 that has 550 suggestions by Logos users. Caveat: most suggestions have less than 5 votes (every Logos user can place up to 3 votes for one suggestion).

My apologies: personally lack interest for an independent program to sync Bible location to other programs since Logos is my primary Bible Study software and has many Bible versions in my Logos library. Noticed the latest version of The Word is 3.2.1.1167, which was published on 3 Feb 2011. In contrast, Logos has released 40 stable updates since Mar 2011 that added over 81 new features plus fixed numerous bugs. Likewise noted latest e-Sword release was 10.1 in Mar 2012.

Also curious if have contacted Accordance and BibleWorks ?

I don't see this as an appropriate use of Logos resources given the number of outstanding issues and promises especially when it is something that can easily be done without Logos resources. Others, I'm sure, have different opinions.

+1 [Y] since would rather Logos development focus on improving Logos features, especially Logos User Voice suggestions with lots of votes.

Keep Smiling [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406329#Comment_406329

Thanks I will look at posting where you have suggested. thanks for the direction. - I will then post a link here. :-)

In regards to the word, I think that they use thier beta site a fair bit - and are planning to release version 4 with some 'bling' so that seems like the reason that theWord 'official' release hasn't been updated. (ie instead of realeasing small improvements, they will release version 4).

Yes I've contacted BbileWorks, and also wordsearch, and onlinebible.

I haven't contacted Accordance yet, but i'd really like to - I was thinking of waiting until they released their windows version so that it was more attractive. Do you think I should contact them now?

I haven't contacted the sword project (and branches) because that seems like more of a developer learning playground and not generally popular, but i did have a look at contacting them but it is hard to find a central email to contact one person - even for the branch projects. But I do like the Sword Project - dont get me wrong - id be happy to include them too.

Thanks

edit: I looked at the terms of service for the suggestion site, and it seems that my sugestion doesn't suit the terms. (i.e biblesync would be an independent program to sync all bible programs that participate - it wouldn't be something that I am giving to Logos, or giving up rights to. Logos would own their own connection client side code, but not the central broadcaster 'local server' IPC code. Therefore I cannot really post there.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/406338#Comment_406338

Just an Update:

Lardian is interested in participating now too.
We are working on a new Verse Sync method so that each program can broadcast the message via a multicast rather than using a middleware program.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/408029#Comment_408029

Another Update:

1. Interlinear Scripture
Analyzer (ISA) is now interested in participating

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/408340#Comment_408340

Update:

The version 2 Specification is out as a draft -

as a fully Public Domain document.
There are significant changes in V2 one being: that no middleware program is required at all - Bible Software can communicate directly through a multicast message.
In one week it is planned to make it final so that Bible Software Programs can start implementing it officially.
It even has a logo so that all Bible Programs can show that they implement this feature (if they wish). (the logo sample here has reduced quality)

I do hope that someone at Logos will begin to take an interest too.

In my opinion, this is spam. You seem to be attempting to promote a product that you are developing. I assume your motive is profit, and there is nothing wrong with profit. It is wrong to use Logos forums to promote your venture. That's spam.

Or am I missing something?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/411355#Comment_411355

Hi Michael.

notice the post just before yours say's this is public domain - (and to clarify this: it is not for profit at all in any way and never will be.) Also there is no 'product' to promote. it is just a specification for a protocol.

In summary: iit is only a 'standard' for a protocol so that bible software can communicate and sync the current verse. I just hoped that Logos would want to participate too - as theWord, e-Sword, BibleAnlayzer, Laridian, and a few others have taken an interest.

Do you think it is spam now - since I am directly asking Logos (and the Logos community of which I am apart of) about it? Thanks for your time.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/411598#Comment_411598

Do you think it is spam now - since I am directly asking Logos (and the Logos community of which I am apart of) about it? Thanks for your time.

Peace to you, Luigi! and .. Always Joy in the Lord! Frankly, my heart goes out to you! I think you want to make Bible Study easier for lots of people with your ideas. Also, I note that you are indeed part of our Logos Community. Unfortunately for your great ideas (and I've also had great dreams and ideas over the many decades of my life!), Logos does not seem one bit interested.

*smile* So, please don't feel too bad about being "rebuffed" and ignored by Logos. Obviously your ideas are not part of their plans right now.

I think it would be good manners for someone from Logos to "pipe up," and say Good Idea, Luigi! Thanks. But, no thanks!

Anyway, I wish you well; and perhaps once you get your plans operating without Logos, they might "see the light" and express interest. Who knows????? . I DO commend you for trying to improve the Bible Study experiences of your Brothers and Sisters in the Lord.

Logos has supported reporting and accepting an active Bible reference from an external program for over 20 years. We supported DDE on Windows 3.0, and COM automation for more than a decade. In the Libronix DLS platform (2001-2009) we supported an incredibly rich and completely flexible programming API.

(In all those years, I can count on one hand the number of external uses of our interfaces.)

We also have offered an API at Biblia.com since launch: http://api.biblia.com/docs/

I believe our COM API does everything you want, and COM is still (as far as I know) the preferred way to automate applications on Windows. It's what's used for Word, Excel, and many, many other apps. And COM isn't dead -- in fact, with Windows 8 it's making a comeback. (Alas!)

I appreciate your desire to build something useful for users, but I believe we've already done our part by exposing the appropriate API's via a platform-appropriate technology.

-- Bob

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/412047#Comment_412047

Peace to you, Luigi! *smile*

Fantastic! Absolutely fantastic! Bob Pritchett himself took the time to share with you personally and directly. I am so pleased!

Hopefully you might feel a wee bit honoured that the President of Logos Bible Software actually took the time to clarify where Logos does stand; and I am quite impressed.

I've been using Logos for almost 20 years now; and I knew what Logos had done in the past. However, I'm so pleased Bob brought it to the fore.

The day is late. My bed in Eastern Canada awaits me. I'm told that the ancient Israelites liked to get a good night's sleep in preparation for a strong next day. Perhaps that's why the new day started with sundown.

We Canadians (and I'm sure many Americans) spend so much of our time recovering from the old day that we don't truly get ready for the new day.

Anyway, that's a good theory; so soon I will have to research it using my fantastic Logos Bible Software. Thank you for posting, Luigi!

Thank you for responding, Bob!

*smile* Peace! and Always Joy in the Lord!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/412064#Comment_412064

Thank you Both to Bob and Milford.

Milford thanks for your kind details, and insightful tips on life too!

Bob thank you for replying on your position.

Perhaps we are thinking of different ways this should be implemented too .

Because lets say that I personally programmed something so that it works with the protocol:

How would it be made available to all logos users? Because it will be "built in" to the other bible programs - with "built in" settings.

Thanks again.

PS. if you would like me to forward you a copy of the protocol (which is currently open to input and discussion until this Sunday - and then will get finalized) please send me an email via my user account email address.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/412136#Comment_412136

I may as well just attach it.

Attached is the version 2 draft which is being discussed. This discussion is between Bible Program developers and ends on Sunday to finalize it for implementation. it comes with sample src code, and program - to demonstrate.

0068.BibleSync V2 Specification Draft.zip

------ Below is part of the email that was sent to participants and interested parties when the above document was distributed last Sunday.-------

Information about version 1 and version 2

Some of you didn’t see BibleSync version 1 – which contained a working prototype and significant documentation.
The
BibleSync version 2 standard and sample code has been made from scratch
to simplify the IPC data sharing method, and to formalize what data
that will be sent. It is also designed to extensible so that the
standard can grow in the future.

Important points about BibleSync Standard:

The BibleSync standard is put in the public domain.
BibleSync
is not ‘owned or controlled’ by any one bible software name. BibleSync
is independent of an affiliation in this regard. It is developed and
shaped by those who spend the time to comment on it, and make
recommendations.
The BibleSync standard is yet to have an independent webpage to view it from and currently it is distributed by email.
The
BibleSync standard will likely have a small logo so that if you wish to
advertise this as a feature to your users you may. The Logo will say:
BibleSync Compatible, or BibleSync Supported.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/412176#Comment_412176

Luigi, you keep pushing for your own interoperability model when Microsoft has built COM as an interoperability model into its products. and that's what Logos uses. I think Bob has been pretty clear on this. If you have read up on COM, you will probably see it offers quite a bit more functionality than your spec does.

The world doesn't need a vendor-supported interoperability mechanism and a custom developed one. Why don't you try and build something pulling out what you want from Logos using COM? Interoperability is more properly provided lower down the software stack, and not at the application level anyway. Have you read anything about COM and the capabilities it offers for software that supports it?

In any case - I think you have gotten your answer from Bob, time to move on to plan B.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/412239#Comment_412239

Hi Dominick.

most people who have replied ASSUME:

1. that this is a personal project - It isn't.

2. that I need COM. Which means either I haven't explained it properly or the people who have replied dont understand the point of this.

I've used Microsoft.Interop.Excel in the past so I know what COM does and similar technologies. If you are a programmer then you should know that I'm not focussing on Logos as an Individual program which I am coding something for - I am helping make a way for ALL bible programs to share data through a Protocol. Do you know what TCP/IP is? this is on the same type of level - except that it is a protocol for ALL bible software to send packets of data to each other.

How many times do i need to say the same thing?

P.S In .Net, Com is only there for legacy / support reasons - there is a transition happening there...

P.S.S This protocol will support sharing data over multiple OS types. PC/MAC/Linux/Phone - Os'es. ( over the local lan as well as over the local computer.)

(To any Bible Program which has implemented support for the Bible Sync protocol.)

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/412136#Comment_412136

Because lets say that I personally programmed something so that it works with the protocol:

How would it be made available to all logos users? Because it will be "built in" to the other bible programs - with "built in" settings.

As Bob implied, we are not planning to add support for BibleSync directly to Logos 4. After reading the proposed protocol document, I believe that this is something that can be accomplished by writing a helper program that implements BibleSync for Logos 4. As mentioned earlier, this should be achievable using the PanelChanged event and CreateNavigationRequest/Navigate methods.

There are several advantages to doing this:

It can run with any (Windows) version of Logos 4 or 5, as far back as 4.2 (or 4.0d, depending on what API features you need). If we implemented it, it might not be available until 5.0c or 5.2 or some future version.
If your program runs in the background, it could launch Logos 4 (or offer to launch it) when a BibleSync message arrives.
You would be able to release updates to this program as frequently as you wish, without waiting for us to ship a new version.
You would be more likely to implement the BibleSync protocol without bugs, since (I assume) you are the lead spec author.

These are all reasons why we implemented a generic API that other programs can code against, rather than implementing specific protocols. We have provided sample code that illustrates how to call our API: https://github.com/LogosBible/Logos4ComApiDemo.

If this program is free to any Logos 4/5 customer and aids them in their use of the software, I see no reason why we would prohibit a link to it from our public wiki or the forums. (Other helper programs have been announced here before.)

BTW, are you affiliated with biblesync.org? If not, you may be infringing their name and logo. If so, I find it strange that this project and documentation aren't mentioned there; it's the first place I looked (before you had posted the spec in this forum).

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/412047#Comment_412047

Noticed Microsoft has a technical documentation library that includes Windows interoperability => http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/jj712081%28v=prot.20%29.aspx plus a number of protocols use Component Object Model (COM) and Distributed Component Object Model (DCOM), including => http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc216757%28v=prot.20%29.aspx that allows messages to be queued for play back later. Also noted peer channel protocol => http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc219453%28v=prot.20%29.aspx

For Logos integration, sync with Mac application is a bit challenging since Logos 4 and 5 do not have the COM API interface (Windows only). However, AppleScript can interact with User Interface, thread => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/39805/297113.aspx has an example with a Logos 4 Mac Layout.

Keep Smiling [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/412978#Comment_412978

hi Bradley:

Firstly Thanks!!! I am relieved that you understand, and have replied.

Second: BibleSync.org is’nt affiliated with this protocol.

I had no idea of that site, nor of their logo. I will need to double check that the graphic designer didn't get any inspiration from their logo. (as I understand the basic sync image is generally used as an industry standard when the concept of sync'ing is used, but I want to make sure there was no connection).
Also if their is a problem with the naming I will change it to BSP the BibleSync Protocol. I'm guessing they had the name first.
Currently the BibleSync Protocol and efforts has been performed by email. Craig from Laridian has offered to set up a MailMan server on Monday so this will improve communication methods a little more.

Third: Regarding being the Lead Spec Author:

I originally created the Version 1 Spec, and the Prototype. I then got as many Bible Program Developers as I could to comment. Upon review we discussed that it would be better to implement slightly differently so that programs can communicate directly over a standard Internet Protocol.

In summary V1 required a middle-ware program to accomplish similar functionality as an Internet protocol multi-cast message would - and centralized most of the settings.
V2 as you can see just uses an established Internet Protocol, and builds on it. it allows all Bible programs to customize the communication settings.

Back to the point: I asked the main person responsible for suggesting the change from V1 spec to the V2 spec to write up the new version of the spec. Which he did after we all agreed that it was the best approach to take. So my role now is more of like a coordinator while this gets established - I am not affiliated with any bible program - and the lead spec author of Spec 2 is Costas from theWord. (However his affiliation with theWord and the BibleSpec protocol are strictly regarded as separate entities - as the BibleSync Protocol has no place for it being named by any individual bible program - it is independent in this regard). Also there are several different developers from different bible programs which are giving input into this specification at the moment. So when this is finalized I’ll ensure that every bible program and related developers get their name on the credits - especially for comments, and protocol recommendations etc.

I hope that this fills you in a little better.

Gratefully I will post the finalized version 2 spec when it is released. I can say that it will have a few changes from the draft to make it suitable for use. I can also say that the recommendations/input/comments from various developers has covered quite a lot.

Thanks again for your time.

EDIT:.......

It seems the Graphic Designer accidentally based his design on the biblesync.org logo because he mistakenly thought that I was doing some work for them (i.e he googled biblesync and just assumed - it was not intentional).

This is being fixed - I have also emailed someone at biblesync.org explaining the situation - and checking if they have any issues.

Also to clarify my points about the V1 Spec and V2 Spec:

V1 Spec was totally different from the V2 Spec. It covered 'How to' and why. It had nothing to do with creating a protocol like v2.

V2 Spec was made from scratch - and has a protocol 'only' focus.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413106#Comment_413106

Updates 2014

The Bible Sync Protocol has now been implemented by Xiphos (May 2014) Karl at Xiphos isthe first of the interested Bible Software Parties to implement it.

Logos Forum X-ref: (this is formalizing the information posted to a different thread which wasn't related)

Home>General>Looks like Zondervan bought themselves some Bible software...

Posts:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/84414/593284.aspx#593284

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/84414/593939.aspx#593939

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/84414/593995.aspx#593995

References:

Xiphos 3.2.0 Reference (May 2014 Release):

http://sourceforge.net/projects/gnomesword/

A Generic library can be viewed on Git Hub

( as provided by Karl, and is public domain material. Be aware that it seems the Git Hub Generic Library might have gpl dependencies to build it as it stands. However the BSP code is public domain material.)

https://github.com/karlkleinpaste/biblesync

You can view the Spec here: (But Please do not edit the wiki)

http://biblesyncprotocol.wikispaces.com Signin Details: user: General_Public password: password

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