Looking for Experienced L3 User Advice on L4

I'm having great difficulty sorting through the marketing materials to clearly understand the advantages of upgrading from Logos 3 to 4. I am interested in feedback from advanced users (NOT Logos employees) on how much the new product functions like the old. In other words, to what degree do I have to re-learn the in's and out's of the new platform? How much of this is a "makeover" and how much is actually useful, increased functionality?

Please Note: I have many years of experience with Logos but am disinterested in the "Study Like A Pro" home page feature that is at the top of every advertisement. I'm closest to an academic/researcher who teaches and publishes regularly. When I peruse the list of "New Features" half of them look like things which should have been fixed/added in L3 and the other half look frivolous or insignificant. Looking at the forum there appears to be all the bugs of a brand new platform which hasn't had the years of shake-out L3 has had. I would appreciate experienced users sharing what new features absolutely made their investment of time and money worthwhile. Is anything missing or functioning drastically differently? What was so limiting in L3 that they had to re-invent the whole enchilada and ask me to pay for it?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

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Frank Sauer

Danlsom,

First and foremost you should know if you don't, that the Version 4 engine is free and you can run Version 3 and 4 on the same machine while you are in the learning curve.

I can tell you that I really didn't like the Version 4 set-up at first during beta testing. However as we worked through bugs, etc. The time spent working with it let me see the ease of use and power that the new version has for the user.

There are some things that you should know do not YET exist in Version 4. For me personally the two big ones are Smart Tags and Sermon File Add-in. Also there are updates coming throughout next summer that should address everything from notes importing to printing functionality to PBB and Sermon file addin.

It's free to try and here is a link - http://downloads.logos.com/LBS4/LDLS4Installer/Logos4Setup.exe

Here's a link to the missing features and ETA - http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures

As for any cost associated with "upgrading" your current package - it is called a crossgrade and comes with a lot of new resources...

A lot of users are continuing to use Version 3 as they learn Version 4 and wait for the missing features to be implemented in Version 4

Rosie Perera

For power L3 users, I think you will find L4 disappointing at first. People do get used to any new UI makeover and most everyone who plays with it for a while comes to love the ease of use, but it's not strictly "necessary" if you knew how to do everything you wanted to do in L3.

Like you said, there are improvements and new features that should/could have been fixed or added in L3, but they chose to recreate the whole thing from scratch. That has been their philosophy for major new releases in the past (2.0 and "Series X"). It has its risks of course: having to start over on a brand new platform, and alienating loyal users. But it also frees the developers up from limitations of the old code base design. I've worked in software development before, and I know that sometimes having made decisions to implement things in a certain way in the past limits the developers in the future. But, sometimes it isn't worth the risks. This was a totally developer driven decision, in my opinion. It couldn't have been based on something that users were clamoring for. However, now that it's been done, they can move forward from here. New users won't know the difference, and users willing to make the shift seem to be loving the new environment. They are, as a whole, very forgiving of Logos for the bugs in the new platform, and Logos is quite responsive to fixing them. There have been several service releases already.

One of the major frustrations people have with the new platform is the time it takes for indexing, however this does speed up searches significantly, so most people put up with it and find it is worth it. I'm not convinced that the developers couldn't have found a different solution that wouldn't put every single user through the pain of waiting for the indexing (such as doing much of the pre-computation for the index ahead of time on Logos servers and shipping an index file or files with the product that could simply be merged on the user's machine depending on what resources they had).

Here are the features missing from L3 in L4 which they plan to add back in over the next few months:

http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures

From your description of yourself, it sounds to me like it would be premature for you to upgrade at this point. L3 is going to keep being supported as a parallel platform for a while longer until the kinks are out and missing features added back in to L4. But eventually you will have to upgrade if you want to be able to buy new resources. And all future development of new features will go forward on the L4 platform only. I would suggest waiting until mid-2010, when all the features are back in and most of the bugs are shaken out, and then you'll still be able to use L3 and L4 in parallel while you go through the learning curve. There are lots of good helps for getting over the hump (videos on the Logos website, a very supportive user community at this Forum, an official wiki, an unofficial wiki, blogs about it, etc.).

Perhaps we bloggers should collect a list of the most in-depth blog posts about L4 (the how-to ones) and maintain links to them all from the wiki.

[this reply has been edited significantly since originally posted]

spitzerpl

What was so limiting in L3 that they had to re-invent the whole enchilada and ask me to pay for it?

I would say the future. Software in general is moving away from the "endless supply of icons and menus" approach. In general, people want clean, easier to navigate software now a days. Also, tying it to IE made the software dependant on the waves of Microsoft, not a good position for Logos to be in.

I love Sympathetic highlighting, useful searches of Library because the do not take all day, the cleaner interface, multi-monitor support, the new window system, and many other features.

In other words, to what degree do I have to re-learn the in's and out's of the new platform? How much of this is a "makeover" and how much is actually useful, increased functionality?

There is a step learning curve coming over from L3. There are also some missing features you should be aware of, and 2 Logos has said will not come back (the searching of library thing and graphical searches) In case you did not find the missing features link

http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures

If you are satisfied with L3, are not dying for the resources you get with a new package, and would miss any of these features too much, then there is no harm in holding off. Or if you now you will eventually get L4 and want to benefit from the current lower prices, go ahead. L3 will continue to work alongside L4 so you lose nothing. The only issue with that is that some of the new L4 resources are not "currently" readable by L3.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/44571#Comment_44571

tying it to IE made the software dependant on the waves of Microsoft

Maybe I'm being dumb, but how was L3 tied to IE?

Jannie van Niekerk

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/44580#Comment_44580

All the reports use IE. See the reports as "web pages".

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/44580#Comment_44580

I'm not a programmer...or at least not a professional one, but L3 used IE in its program. Someone who hadn't been told wouldn't now it, but every IE release Logos would have to push out a "fix" for some issue it caused. With L4 they started from the ground up and left out its reliance on IE.

Mark Barnes

Danlsom. I combine academic research and teaching with regular church-based preaching. I have invested significantly in Logos and have Portfolio, plus the major academic commentary sets. I planned on keeping Logos 3 and trying out Logos 4, but I very rarely open Logos 3 now.

Like you, I don't use many of the new features that are advertised (Bible Image Library,etc). Having said that, I think you'll find some 'consumer' features can have a valuable academic use in particular circumstances. For example, I sometimes use reverse-interlinears to generate stats on how particular words are translated into English. So having many more reverse-interlinears in L4 is a minor benefit, therefore.

But the killer features for me as a reasonably power-user are:

Auto collections: If you've got lots of resources, you kept having to create parallel resource associations and collections. I had dozens and dozens (for example, commentaries on Matthew, commentaries on Mark, etc., bible dictionaries, academic commentaries, homiletic commentaries). If for example, I added NICNT/NICOT to my collection, I would spend several hours trying to remember which collections/PRAs I had created, and which it would be appropriate to add. Now, my collection of Hebrews commentaries is generated with the search term "subject:Hebrews type:commentary". If I add new commentaries, they'll be automatically added if appropriate. Even better, I've got manual control and can manually add/subtract commentaries from this collection if it should become necessary - the best of both worlds.
The plus tab: Not quite sure what to call this, but when you're in any resource you can open a new tab. In a few seconds it will search similar resources for references similar to the one you have open. If you've a commentary open, it will search other commentaries that refer to that passage. If you'd a dictionary open, it will search other dictionaries that share the same subject. Now that's nothing you couldn't do in Logos3, but it's far, far quicker. And because it works pretty well, you don't need to set up hundreds of parallel resource associations to make it work.
Speed: This is a huge difference. If you search often, L4 will save you hours of your life. I just tried searching for "glossolalia NEAR Corinth*" all resources. L3 was 3 minutes 40 seconds, L4 was 58seconds - nearly a quarter of the time. But without wildcards it's even better. Search for "glossolalia NEAR Corinth" took L3 2 minutes 55 seconds. L4 returned the search in less than three seconds. Search ranking was much better in L4, too. Surely that's got to be worth $70?

The only things most people miss badly from L3 is the sentence diagrammer and the advanced 'graphical' search. If you used those often you may find yourself keeping L3 installed for a little while yet.

We probably can't say much more unless we know how you use L3. There are so much you can do, your use may be very different from mine. Tell us more, and we can probably advise you better.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/44570#Comment_44570

<snip>

I would suggest waiting until mid-2010, when all the features are back in and most of the bugs are shaken out, and then you'll still be able to use L3 and L4 in parallel while you go through the learning curve.

<snip>

Is there a risk that the upgrade price may increase, or not be available by next summer? I don't know...just want all the cards on the table for the original post-er.

I am not an 'experienced' L3 user, having bought it just a few months ago. I spent quite a bit of time learning L3, so the advent of L4 was not as exciting to me as to some others. I went ahead an paid for a parallel upgrade (Gold to Gold) since the price was so incredibly inexpensive, and I got one particular resource in the upgrade that I would have had to pay several hundred dollars more for than the upgrade itself cost. This may be one reason for an upgrade now.

I continue to use L3 as I'm learning L4, and I see a lot about L4 to like, especially the increase in search speed and concomittant decrease in search times. I'm getting more excited about it all the time. My personal opinion is, the decision to keep L3 and not disable it upon upgrading was a tremendously generous and wise decision by the Logos folks. Heaven knows I wish Microshaft had done that with the Office 03 to Office 07 upgrade. I still can't figure out how to format some of my documents.

Bottom line- if you wait to upgrade, make sure it won't cost you a thousand dollars more to do then over what it will cost to do now.

Just my 2 euros worth.

John Fidel

Great questions.

I have been using Logos since version 2 for windows. It was designed for maybe 1000 books. Libronix or version 3 was a complete rebuild and was designed for 10,000 books. When this came out is was a reach that any bible software would have that many resources available. Logos 4 is rebuilt to provide for improvements in speed for searches; looking forward to providing links to web-based or cloud based resources; integration of notes etc with the iPhone and second installations on other computers; updating the visuals.... there is more but that is what I have discovered so far.

I have found that it is easier to setup layouts and to find things in the my resources. Yes, there is a re-learning curve, but with the videos, forums etc this has been relatively easy. There are a few things missing and if they are important to you, you may want to wait on upgrading. The upgrade packages are a real value, if there are additional resources you find helpful in the packages. The newer visuals are interesting, but for me, not the reason I upgraded.

I have a few videos showing how I am using Logos 4 here. There is a great on that actually shows the conversion of workspaces from V3 to V4 here.

I hope this helps.

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/44607#Comment_44607

Bottom line- if you wait to upgrade, make sure it won't cost you a thousand dollars more to do then over what it will cost to do now.

I agree with the financial aspect because I really think the "upgrade deals" won't be around for months. By buying an upgrade now, you will get the better value for your expense. And once you have purchased it , you can keep using L3 and wait to install L4 until the dust settles months from now. I agree with Rosie's description of the features of L3 v. L4 and justification for waiting to install L4.

Rich DeRuiter

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

I'm a long time user of Logos software (since version 1.6). I'm also a pastor/preacher in a denomination which heavily emphasizes expository preaching, and I certainly do. But I'm not an academic and rarely do the intricate syntax searching some on this list do. (I just don't find that all that digging produces enough gold.) But I don't often rely on the reports (passage guide, exegetical guide, etc.) to do my work for me, I usually do it myself, finding the reports don't often go deep enough where I want to go, or wide enough where I want to go (though I admit playing with them and finding them better than the ones I used with Logos3).

I remember the change from 2 to 3 and it was a big one. It took a while to work with L3 with the effectiveness I had when I worked with L2, and for a while I worked with both.

The transition from L3 to L4 is even bigger, IMHO. And at first I was at a loss as to how to do the simplest things, like set up a workspace (now called a layout). As with my transition from L2 to L3, I quickly abandoned the home page, as something for people who have a more casual approach to Bible study than I do.

In my opinion L4 is more helpful than L3 in studying the Bible in depth. The main tools seem to be more at my finger-tips now. Searching is faster, and finding books is much faster.

But these differences in the way Logos works require retraining. It took a couple of weeks to start to get the hang of L4 and at first I was frustrated. I thought it was a big mistake for Logos to go this way, and supposed they had abandoned in-depth research in favor of a wider user base. That's what it felt like, because I didn't know how to do what I had always done. What I had to do was learn to do what I had always done in a slightly different way. After learning to work with Logos4 (instead of trying to force Logos4 into an Libronix mold), I found myself starting to soar.

The Greek/Hebrew Bible Word study tools are really quite helpful, despite their attractive look, by giving a lot of information quickly and easily. The nice-looking 'circle' diagram makes connecting with original language synonyms so easy, it almost feels like cheating.

Renaming books, is possible, as is providing your own short name, and tags, so that finding your books the way you reference them is quick and easy. Collections can be created easily and dynamically, meaning if you make a collection of Greek grammars (e.g.), and later buy a new Greek grammar, it will be automatically added. This makes managing and searching a very large library much, much easier than it ever could be in L3.

But be sure to look at this page:http://www.logos.com/support/techfaq#sysreqs before you buy (to make sure it will run on your machine) and this page http://www.logos.com/4/missingfeatures before trying to make it do what it can't do yet.

Don't let the attractive look and 'ease of use' talk fool you. Logos4 is, without question in my mind, a much more powerful Bible study and research tool than Logos3.

But if you have some specific questions about what you'd like to know if/how Logos4 does something. Please ask. I'm sure someone on this forum can answer.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/44627#Comment_44627

The Greek/Hebrew Bible Word study tools are really quite helpful, despite their attractive look

[:)]

Funny how we've come to expect that powerful tools have to be unattractive.

Kevin Becker

Danlsom,

As an academic user you will probably really like the Datasheet feature being tested in the Beta. It allows you to sort (in spreadsheet fashion) the results of a search by any of the tagging associated with the hits: lemma, form, number, preceding/following words, and so on. While it was possible to manually compare these things in LDLS this feature is really beneficial for original language work.

The interface, while taking a little time to get used to, really facilitates having more resources open without losing track of where they are. Also the multi-monitor support/floating windows drastically increases the flexibility of the program to work like you want it to.

Ultimately, the decision to upgrade is yours to make. Try out the engine for free, ask your questions here and if at the end of the day LDLS is better for you then go back to it.

Danny

Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond. I do, sincerely, appreciate it.

I
downloaded and installed the L4 engine. (Thanks, Logos, for not
bothering to mention I was actually about to download a cool 3.4 GIGA-bytes and then lose my PC for the afternoon while it indexed.)
After wandering around the wasteland Morris Proctor calls "the most
powerful and easy to use", and peering through this forum, along with the
"features you had in the past but won't get any time soon" page, and
yada yada yada, I'm hopelessly depressed. (I'm sure MP thinks he's
found a way for me to take his course again, huh?) Yet again a software
vendor has thrown consideration to its existing base out the window.

I
spend hours each and every day of the year with Logos open. This is no
small "changeover", which apparently I have the privilege of paying
less for now than more later, even though it is not as functional as the
original product. Why would I now spend time I never planned nor wanted
to spend in the first place to learn to do only 75% of what I could already
do while taking three times longer to do it? How, exactly, does
throwing in other resources make up for this?

I get that if you're relatively new it probably doesn't matter.
Apparently I'm in a very small minority who feel like this, so I
suppose it really doesn't matter. But since I'm going to have to
completely re-learn something new, I think I'll spend the next year
seeing how far I can get with other products.

Since everything I've come across on the Logos website prefixes "discontinued" before nearly every utterance of "Logos 3" and all related pages have already been "archived", I'd appreciate knowing exactly when the support date for L3 expires? Thanks. I'm going to go out and yell at kids in my neighborhood to relax now...

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45046#Comment_45046

I'm going to go out and yell at kids in my neighborhood to relax now...

Don't forget to kick the dog as well (or at least the neighbour's dog).

Thanks, Logos, for not
bothering to mention I was actually about to download a cool 3.4 GIGA-bytes and then lose my PC for the afternoon while it indexed

I get quite frustrated when I read things like this. From at least the second week of Beta testing I said that it would be necessary to put in very big writing the amount of downloading that was necessary and the amount of time which would be consumed by indexing. While they now include download information for the packages, they do not include any information for the minimum crossgrade. Nor do they appear to clearly state anywhere near the product pages that the program will automatically download updated resources which can be many GBs It may well cause potential buyers to pause for a moment, or even turn some away, but at least they would be making an informed decision.

Why would I now spend time I never planned nor wanted
to spend in the first place to learn to do only 75% of what I could already
do while taking three times longer to do it? How, exactly, does
throwing in other resources make up for this?

I'm very happy with v4 because I can do what I used to do more effectively. It's hard to determine the comparative usability of the program because of differing needs amongst the user base. Obviously, if you NEED access to v3 notes, you don't buy. If you NEED to print, you don't buy.

Of course, each and every base product page - as well as the minimum crossgrade page - should have a link to "What's Missing" and a link to the FAQs.

Larry L. Dix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/44593#Comment_44593

The plus tab: Not quite sure what to call this, but when you're
in any resource you can open a new tab. In a few seconds it will search
similar resources for references similar to the one you have open. If
you've a commentary open, it will search other commentaries that refer
to that passage. If you'd a dictionary open, it will search other
dictionaries that share the same subject. Now that's nothing you
couldn't do in Logos3, but it's far, far quicker. And because it works
pretty well, you don't need to set up hundreds of parallel resource
associations to make it work.

Mark,

Would you mind expalining what yo ment by the "plus tab" feature?

Larry Dix

Donovan R. Palmer

Because one of the big reasons I have Logos is to have access to a large library of seminary materials, I have found L4 so much better in this respect that I have not used L3 since I upgraded. I find the search functions and displays so much better. The UI of tabbed panels is much easier to manage. I am also very pleased about the enhancements to the Library window.

Allen Browne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45046#Comment_45046

I
downloaded and installed the L4 engine. ... I'm hopelessly depressed.

Okay, so L4 is radically different, both at the engine model and in the interface. When I downloaded it in he middle of a busy week, my first reaction (after 1-2 hours) was, "I don't have time to lean this at the moment. I'll have to continue with v.3 until I get some time to explore."

That weekend, I dived in and spent several hours searching for things, identifying what's not there yet, discovering the new ways of doing things, reading Help and the FAQs, and even posting questions for stuff I couldn't find.

Gradually, it started to become clear how radically useful the changes were:

Have you discovered how you can prioritize each category of within your library, and how Logos 4 will look up these preferred resources and show you results in the Information Window (whatever the language), without you even having to request it?
Have you discovered how to create rule-based collections to search?
Have you discovered how much more powerful Layouts are than the old workspaces?
Have you discovered how to float windows (for dual monitors/projectors, highlighting, or library management = Ctrl+L.)?
Have you discovered how you can make your own passage guide, so you get the components you want? (I used to tell Logos 3 users, "you'll outgrow the passage guide"; that's not applicable to v.4.)

"Discovered" is a key word here. Takes time. The richness is hidden beneath their attempt to keep the interface simple. Read the wiki to see how things are done.

Hope your first reaction doesn't put you off discovering Logos 4. It's worth the effort to dig a bit deeper. The new version is certainly not change just for change's sake.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45046#Comment_45046

I downloaded and installed the L4 engine....I'm hopelessly depressed....Yet again a software vendor has thrown consideration to its existing base out the window.

I spend hours each and every day of the year with Logos open. This is no small "changeover", which apparently I have the privilege of paying less for now than more later, even though it is not as functional as the original product. Why would I now spend time I never planned nor wanted to spend in the first place to learn to do only 75% of what I could already do while taking three times longer to do it? How, exactly, does throwing in other resources make up for this?

I hear your frustration at there being only 75% functionality so far, which is why I suggested you wait to upgrade. I'm not sure whether what people were saying about the price to upgrade going up in the future has any basis in inside knowledge or whether it was just something that scared you into buying before you were ready (or rather before the product was ready for you, a power user).

However, when I hear you say "I spend hours each and every day of the year with Logos open" in the same paragraph with "Why would I now spend time I never planned nor wanted to spend in the first place to learn to do...what I could already do while taking three times longer to do it?" I can't help but wince empathically. With the exception of that 75% (which I conveniently edited out with an ellipsis), what you're facing is the classic case of "I don't have time to learn how to do this more quickly." Something that in the long run will save you hours and hours of time takes a few hours up front to learn, and you don't have those extra hours now, so you're willing instead to let the hours leak away from your life slowly over the long haul. It's less noticeable that way, but its no more insidious. Many of us are not willing to pay that investment of time up front, to save time in the long run. I do it all the time with setting up new procedures that would make my life way more efficient. I say "I don't have time to do that right now," and so I never get around to it. Sometimes we just need to bite the bullet. I personally think you bit it too soon with Logos 4 given your history with L3. But I think that nonetheless, you would be rewarded greatly by taking some time to learn what's different in L4 and then perhaps in the future, when the rest of what you need from L3 is available in L4, you will be able to get done what you need to do in Logos by spending only 1/3 of the hours in it that you already do. Or more likely, all the time you free up from waiting for it to search for things, you can use to do more in-depth study and other things you were never able to do before.

So many people, like you, have expressed an initial great disappointment when they saw how different the product was from what they were used to. But a huge percentage of them overcome that in a day or two and begin to express delight as they discover more about the new way of doing things which makes life easier. I'm one of those people, and I've been around these forums long enough to see that pattern repeated over and over.

I get that if you're relatively new it probably doesn't matter. Apparently I'm in a very small minority who feel like this, so I suppose it really doesn't matter.

Nope, you're not in a very small minority. Quite the opposite. Almost everyone who has come from L3 has the same experience as you have within the first day, and they come here to gripe about it. Give it a bit of time. It has been less than 14 hours since your first post indicating you were exploring whether to get L4 or not and this second one saying how depressed you were now that you've bought it. I'm not sure when during that 14 hour window you actually bought it and downloaded it, but I'm assuming it was after a few people responded. So you've had this product for a few hours and are right in the period of disillusionment that we told you to expect. It will get better, trust us.

But since I'm going to have to completely re-learn something new, I think I'll spend the next year seeing how far I can get with other products.

Do I understand correctly that you're saying "if I have to learn something new anyway, I might as well jump ship from the Logos platform altogether and check out one of their competitors"? You've got a huge investment already in digital books in the Logos format, and truly a few hours spent in bits and snatches will help you preserve your investment. (All I've had time for is 1/2 here or there and I'm already pretty much convinced that this was a good move for Logos to make, even though I hated the new UI at first.) If you've got to learn something new anyway, why not learn L4? It won't take you anywhere near a year to learn. A couple of weeks and you'll be flying. A lot of your Logos know-how will still be applicable in the new version. True, many major aspects of the UI have changed, but if you're the type who has invested the time to take a Morris Proctor class, you definitely like learning software well. So I think you'll be able to do it just fine. So, courage, my friend. Fare forth with patience and God's blessing.

Since everything I've come across on the Logos website prefixes "discontinued" before nearly every utterance of "Logos 3" and all related pages have already been "archived", I'd appreciate knowing exactly when the support date for L3 expires?

To quote from Chris Elford on another thread about this same question, "Discontinued = no longer sold. You can continue to use L3 for the foreseeable future."

I'm going to go out and yell at kids in my neighborhood to relax now...

Ah, that sounds very relaxing [:)], and gives me a tip-off that you've got a good sense of humor. So you'll survive this trauma, I know. Just stick with it and keep coming back here for comic relief and help getting over the hurdles of learning the new interface. We're here to help.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45061#Comment_45061

Would you mind expalining what yo ment by the "plus tab" feature?

Larry,

Next to the active tab is another tab with a '+' sign on it. When you click it, it opens a new tab in two parts. The left hand part has bookcovers of similar resources. I don't find this very useful as it's often not relevant. Much more useful is the righthand part which searches parallel resources for the same topic as the active tab. If the active tab was a dictionary, you'll see a list of dictionaries with same same headword you were working on. If it was a commentary, you'll see other commentaries on the same passage. If it was a lexicon you'll see other lexicons defining the same word, etc.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45046#Comment_45046

After wandering around the wasteland Morris Proctor calls "the most powerful and easy to use", and peering through this forum, along with the "features you had in the past but won't get any time soon" page, and yada yada yada, I'm hopelessly depressed. (I'm sure MP thinks he's found a way for me to take his course again, huh?) Yet again a software vendor has thrown consideration to its existing base out the window.

I spend hours each and every day of the year with Logos open. This is no small "changeover", which apparently I have the privilege of paying less for now than more later, even though it is not as functional as the original product. Why would I now spend time I never planned nor wanted to spend in the first place to learn to do only 75% of what I could already do while taking three times longer to do it? How, exactly, does throwing in other resources make up for this?

I'm sorry, but I simply think you're wrong here. How can you possibly even begin to evaluate the software in such a short space of time? All of us involved in academic research know that good results take time and effort. Complaining after a few hours that L4 does not do what you want, without properly evaluating whether you can get what you want in another, better way, is like spending a few hours with the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament and complaining it doesn't tell you what agape means. If you're not willing to invest in the resources Logos contains, you'll benefit nothing. And if you're not willing to invest in learning how to use it best, you'll benefit little. The point is that the investment is worthwhile. If you have specific question, please ask it. If you have specific feature requests, say so. That way we can all benefit, and you may well learn things without needing to pay for a Morris Proctor seminar.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45095#Comment_45095

The left hand part has bookcovers of similar resources. I don't find this very useful as it's often not relevant. Much more useful is the righthand part which searches parallel resources for the same topic as the active tab.

Pastor Barnes...

I agree..I'd like the option to switch the left side off completely.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45127#Comment_45127

I agree..I'd like the option to switch the left side off completely.

Amen. Amen.

It would speed up the whole process if we just got what I want - parallel resources

Danny

I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings here, but I can't believe how many people so easily drink the Kool-Aid.

Let's see...how much of the YEARS of knowledge learning L3 instantly carried over to even the most basic operation of L4? Perhaps I can come up with a politer term than "zero" but it eludes me. How many of the "terms" and "labels" are common to the two products so I can at least leverage a modicum of familiarity learning the new? Not zero but definitely approaching it. I'm sure after hours of searching, and reading, and viewing tutorials I'll figure out how to execute a Keylink Summary or link resources, but in the mean time I'm...oh, pick a term..."happy" because I know of all the joy-joy goodness it will eventually bring? Not to mention the "satisfaction", after hours spent to find out the new name of an old function and how it works in the new environment, of finding out it hasn't even been implemented yet and might not be? I guess I've become the curmudgeon I once despised in my youth. ;-)

I'm supposing that I must be the only person out there for whom L3 was not just doing the job, but running well. I guess I'm blessed with superior equipment or something because for some strange reason I haven't come across a single thing that was "broke" that needed fixing by re-inventing the product. I look forward to seeing what new features are SO completely awesome and useful that every single thing just HAD to be re-numbered, re-defined, and re-built from the ground up...while failing to allow the replacement product to provide the same functionality of the old on day 1 of the release -- or even a year or more after in some noted cases.

Yes, anything can be learned given the time and energy. But let's admit that there's a basic misrepresentation -- however minor or unintended -- in calling something an "upgrade" or "crossgrade" when in reality the baby was thrown out with the bath water. I can't believe that as a consumer I'm the only one chafing at having a company who, yes, I HAVE spent the money over the years upgrading to higher and higher suites and adding materials, completely throw out my time investment of years and, in a single day, making me a beginning user in a single instant.

These are, in reality, two completely different products now, and the choice to use one or the other (at least in my case) is not the difference in performance but whether I can learn to live without the features mutually exclusive to the two platforms. On this fine Thanksgiving Day, I'm thankful for the Kool-Aid. Please pass the pitcher.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45132#Comment_45132

I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings here, but I can't believe how many people so easily drink the Kool-Aid.

Let's see...how much of the YEARS of knowledge learning L3 instantly carried over to even the most basic operation of L4? Perhaps I can come up with a politer term than "zero" but it eludes me. How many of the "terms" and "labels" are common to the two products so I can at least leverage a modicum of familiarity learning the new? Not zero but definitely approaching it. I'm sure after hours of searching, and reading, and viewing tutorials I'll figure out how to execute a Keylink Summary or link resources, but in the mean time I'm...oh, pick a term..."happy" because I know of all the joy-joy goodness it will eventually bring? Not to mention the "satisfaction", after hours spent to find out the new name of an old function and how it works in the new environment, of finding out it hasn't even been implemented yet and might not be? I guess I've become the curmudgeon I once despised in my youth. ;-)

I'm supposing that I must be the only person out there for whom L3 was not just doing the job, but running well. I guess I'm blessed with superior equipment or something because for some strange reason I haven't come across a single thing that was "broke" that needed fixing by re-inventing the product. I look forward to seeing what new features are SO completely awesome and useful that every single thing just HAD to be re-numbered, re-defined, and re-built from the ground up...while failing to allow the replacement product to provide the same functionality of the old on day 1 of the release -- or even a year or more after in some noted cases.

Yes, anything can be learned given the time and energy. But let's admit that there's a basic misrepresentation -- however minor or unintended -- in calling something an "upgrade" or "crossgrade" when in reality the baby was thrown out with the bath water. I can't believe that as a consumer I'm the only one chafing at having a company who, yes, I HAVE spent the money over the years upgrading to higher and higher suites and adding materials, completely throw out my time investment of years and, in a single day, making me a beginning user in a single instant.

These are, in reality, two completely different products now, and the choice to use one or the other (at least in my case) is not the difference in performance but whether I can learn to live without the features mutually exclusive to the two platforms. On this fine Thanksgiving Day, I'm thankful for the Kool-Aid. Please pass the pitcher.

Danlsom,

No...really...don't hold back....tell us how you really feel. [:^)]

Hey...you don't like it...that's fine..to each his own..

Use V3.

There are plenty of V2 users still around for the same reasons you don't like V4.

I'm at a loss as to why; as an adult, you'd choose to complain, using inflammatory language like "drink the kooliad" that's insulting to users who DO see the value in V4 AND ARE CURRENTLY USING IT just fine....when all you have to do is call, get a refund...and be happy with V3....it's not disappearing....

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45132#Comment_45132

Danlsom,

Despite repeated offers of help from people in this thread you still haven't told us one thing that you could do in L3 that you can't do in L4, or don't know how to do in L4. There are people who are (were?) willing to help you make the transition. Surely it would be better to ask them than to insult them?

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45148#Comment_45148

Surely it would be better to ask them than to insult them?

You would think [*-)]

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45132#Comment_45132

I'm sure after hours of searching, and reading, and viewing tutorials I'll figure out how to execute a Keylink Summary

This particular function is not an isolated function anymore.

However all you would see for this, and much more, is present in the Bible Word Study report.

I'm sure after hours of searching, and reading, and viewing tutorials I'll figure out how to . . . link resources

In the upper left of the resource tab is in icon of a book. Click that to create link sets between resources on the screen.

You may find the answers to some of your other questions on the wiki here:

http://wiki.logos.com/

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45132#Comment_45132

On this fine Thanksgiving Day, I'm thankful for the Kool-Aid. Please pass the pitcher.

Me too. If L4 is Kool-Aid I will gladly take another glass. The world of electronics is a continually morphing field because it is new. Logos exists in the world of electronics. It will change, and sometimes that change will be drastic. They could wait until the program is so outdated as far as design philosophy that no new comer would consider it, then when they have no money because everyone who owns the program is satisfied with their collection and not buying more try to recreate their program to something they have no experience with, or they can advance now. Personally, I want them to stay ahead of the pack. Not behind or beside.

I do appreciate your opinions of the software. I do not appreciate the insinuation that my appreciation for L4 is not genuine.

Larry L. Dix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45095#Comment_45095

Mark,

Thank you for the info and the picture also. I am one who definetly needs the pictures also.

Larry Dix

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45132#Comment_45132

I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings here, but I can't believe how many people so easily drink the Kool-Aid.

Maybe the Kool-Aid is better than it looks to you. I drank it, and I think it's pretty good stuff.

In the time it took you to write the admittedly well-constructed thesis on why you hate L4, you could have watched a handful of the tutorial videos and been able to accomplish what you say you can't figure out how to do. (No, that sentence wasn't that well done, but I hope the point is clear.)

You do write satire very well. If you don't like your current job, you'd make an excellent writer for the Huffington Post. :-)

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45132#Comment_45132

Let's see...how much of the YEARS of knowledge learning L3 instantly carried over to even the most basic operation of L4? Perhaps I can come up with a politer term than "zero" but it eludes me....I'm sure after hours of searching, and reading, and viewing tutorials I'll figure out how to execute a Keylink Summary or link resources, but in the mean time I'm...oh, pick a term..."happy" because I know of all the joy-joy goodness it will eventually bring?

I've been a Logos user since before 1.0 ever shipped (I was one of the very first beta testers ever), and to be honest I never did quite get the hang of Keylinking and some of the other more advanced features. Any software that takes YEARS to learn is too complicated and frustrating. (Well, I'm making an exception for Photoshop, but I would be just as annoyed with Adobe as you are with Logos, if they suddenly made it so easy for all the newbies to learn that my years of investment into learning it went out the window and made me lose my cachet overnight.) So I'm overjoyed that I don't have to waste any more time trying to figure out how Keylinking works. It isn't necessary anymore. L4 is much easier to learn. Maybe I'm not jaded by having invested so much of my time into learning the L3 way that I can't appreciate the ease of use of L4. I once worked with a a guy who had spent his entire career honing his skills in machine code programming; he knew it so well that he was hired to do "hand coding" to speed up performance on particularly time-sensitive portions of the code. But once C compliers got good enough, and microprocessors got fast enough, his knowledge was obsolete. Too bad that he'd spent so much time learning a skill that was now useless. But that was water under the bridge. He could have gone around moaning about it, but it wouldn't have helped the fact that his skill wasn't needed anymore. Instead he learned to program in C and got on with his life.

So, what would you do to compensate all those people who learned Morse Code so well they could enter a message into a telegraph key as fast as you could read it out loud? Such wasted talent once the telephone took over! "Blimey, you mean I've got to learn how to DIAL numbers into a PHONE?!" And what about the learning curve for all those poor blokes who had to transfer their knowledge to using books from scrolls, virtually none of which knowledge (except perhaps recognizing the black marks on the page) would be applicable in the new world? Think of all the Tech Support nightmares that must have caused! (They've even been dramatized!)

OK, so I'm just showing I can be as satirical as you can.

Incidentally, while sitting on a plane the other day, I did have some sympathy for you. I wondered to myself what it would be like if some airline suddenly decided to redesign the user interface we've all grown to love and dread, in the interest of making it easier to use. And I came up with a kind of humorous scenario which you would be able to relate to: "To fasten your seatbelt, please press the icon that looks like a seatbelt clasp on the seat back in front of you and the seatbelt will automatically fasten itself. Be careful to be seated properly when this occurs or you might get strapped around the leg instead of the waist." "In the unlikely event of a loss of cabin pressure, oxygen masks will be available for your use. Simply press the O2 icon on the seatback in front of you, and the mask will automatically descend and fit itself around your face. No more worrying about placing your mask on first before helping your children. Everyone's mask will go on automatically. But be sure you remember to press your child's icon button too, or teach him/her to do it for him/herself, or else he/she will be left without an oxygen mask, because there is no way for you to override the automatic system and do it yourself." Etc. You get the idea...

So, yes, I hear you. It is frustrating when what seemed like a perfectly good UI gets redesigned. But if it was too hard for most people to learn (I used be appalled that there even needed to be a "Camp Logos" to teach people how to use Bible Study software, for Pete's sake!), it was high time it needed redesigning. And if Adobe redesigns Photoshop to make it easier to learn, I will have complete sympathy with the people who have been kept from using it to its full power for all these years because they were simply overwhelmed by it.

Ken Avery

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48304#Comment_48304

What put me over the edge to purchase Logos 4 is the deal; the upgrade is a fantastic deal with the added titles and because the product is still being developed I get to complain about all the things I don't like with the hopes of possibly joining with other complainers and influencing the product outcome.

Over all, the new product is great and creates a base product that will improve greatly over time; though, it still needs work.

Even if you decide to stick with L3 until the features you require are delivered you can still use the new content that comes packaged with Logos 4 with logos 3; this is a fantastic deal that every Logos user should take advantage of.

Danny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45089#Comment_45089

Hmmm...does anyone understand the old adage of comparing apples and oranges? Moving and renaming a feature is NOT the same as leaving it completely out of the so-called "new and improved and much easier to use" release. By definition, it's not "easier" if it doesn't exist. Check the forums and the Wiki for yourself. It's going to be a couple of years or more before L4, hopefully and not 100% assuredly, has all the function L3 had on day 1 of the L4 final release. That's not me being inflammatory, those are the facts if you dig for them, something not so clearly communicated in the initial barrage of marketing speak on L4. So from day 1 we have two things which aren't equal and may not be superior to each other. They might just be different, unsuitable to different people depending on their particular usage.

Now that's not bad if it can be clearly understood what was jettisoned in favor of whatever was gained. But really, is everything listed as "new" in the L4 literature something that never ever existed before, or are many of these things merely performing the same functions but in a new, learned manner? This is not a cloud exclusive to Logos, most software makers engage in this kind of marketing, but usually you can find someone or something providing some clarity as to which big bang-for-the-buck enhancements make the upgrade worthwhile.

I asked for experienced users to share which legitimately new features in L4 are worth looking into, and I received exactly 1 reply on point, the vast majority of the rest offering opinions on usability. But let's take the example of Photoshop of which I've been a user since 1.o. They've change the GUI many times, but they don't regularly drop large chunks out of the program from one release to the next. When they have, it's been very clear as to what replaced it and why. Was there ever a case when all of the sudden you could no longer do something at all in Photoshop? With L4 it's not an issue of "who moved my cheese" when the cheese is completely gone.

The point is that IF I'm already squeezing out everything to my satisfaction, what is the incentive to re-learn everything over again? It can't POSSIBLY be that it's "easier" because I can already do it; it can only be that it's worth it to acquire something I don't already have. What is it I can't do today in L3 that compels me to pay the price to work in L4?

But as an example of something going completely backward, and for which Logos itself has promised some kind of redress, the whole "new and improved" interface for copying and pasting is a train wreck for those of us who greatly use and depend on this feature. We went from a visual interface of checking options to an obtuse scripting language. Yes, I've actually poked around L4 and have yet to find the legitimate new feature to die for.

I'm going back to my lawn chair now...

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48322#Comment_48322

But as an example of something going completely backward, and for which Logos itself has promised some kind of redress, the whole "new and improved" interface for copying and pasting is a train wreck for those of us who greatly use and depend on this feature. We went from a visual interface of checking options to an obtuse scripting language. Yes, I've actually poked around L4 and have yet to find the legitimate new feature to die for.

That appears to be a legitimate complaint. I had never discovered the powerful Copy Bible Verses styles templates in L3 because they were hidden in some Add-in program that came with Logos which I'd never used (available through an icon on the system tray which was nearly always hidden because I'd never used it). I only now just explored the L3 Copy Bible Verses applet to see if what you were talking about was valid. I found that it is. Thus, when I first encountered the "obtuse scripting language" (indeed, a good description of it!) in L4, I thought it was doing something entirely new. I figured I wouldn't need to use it because most of the styles one could ever imagine needing were already predefined. But you are right -- it is a step backwards to go from a visual interface of checking options to this scripting language.

I hope they do add back in the GUI for building style templates. They might very well be planning it. Bob said that they've got 1000+ planned features to add, so the list of missing features just doesn't have fine enough granularity to list that specifically.

Sean Boisen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48322#Comment_48322

I asked for experienced users to share which legitimately new features in L4 are worth looking into

In case you haven't already found it (though i suspect you have), there's a list of new features here: http://www.logos.com/4/newfeatures. Given what you've described above of your interests, many of these may not have high value to you personally. But (despite, as a Logos employee, being biased [:)] ) i think there are quite a few genuinely valuable new features here that go way beyond cosmetics and the interface (and i'll leave it to others to provide their comments on that, since you asked for user, not employee, advice).

Chuck P.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48463#Comment_48463

There is nothing at that website link...

Chuck P.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48464#Comment_48464

"In case you haven't already found it (though i suspect you have), there's a list of new features here: http://www.logos.com/4/newfeatures."

This is all I get when I go to the link.....

J. Morris

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48463#Comment_48463

Logos 4 is AWESOME!

I would NOT have said that about a month ago.

The best thing for a new L4 user is to LEARN it, USE it, then ASK QUESTIONS (minus all the colorful negative frills), then do it all over... Do this enough, I'd bet the majority of new users will like/love L4.

You complained about not getting specific help. I'm sure that is frustrating, but when you add the "frills" to your question it becomes a multi paragraphed opinion piece. And when you give opinions you'll get many in return.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/45046#Comment_45046

Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond. I do, sincerely, appreciate it.

I downloaded and installed the L4 engine. (Thanks, Logos, for not bothering to mention I was actually about to download a cool 3.4 GIGA-bytes and then lose my PC for the afternoon while it indexed.) After wandering around the wasteland Morris Proctor calls "the most powerful and easy to use", and peering through this forum, along with the "features you had in the past but won't get any time soon" page, and yada yada yada, I'm hopelessly depressed. (I'm sure MP thinks he's found a way for me to take his course again, huh?) Yet again a software vendor has thrown consideration to its existing base out the window.

I spend hours each and every day of the year with Logos open. This is no small "changeover", which apparently I have the privilege of paying less for now than more later, even though it is not as functional as the original product. Why would I now spend time I never planned nor wanted to spend in the first place to learn to do only 75% of what I could already do while taking three times longer to do it? How, exactly, does throwing in other resources make up for this?

I get that if you're relatively new it probably doesn't matter. Apparently I'm in a very small minority who feel like this, so I suppose it really doesn't matter. But since I'm going to have to completely re-learn something new, I think I'll spend the next year seeing how far I can get with other products.

Since everything I've come across on the Logos website prefixes "discontinued" before nearly every utterance of "Logos 3" and all related pages have already been "archived", I'd appreciate knowing exactly when the support date for L3 expires? Thanks. I'm going to go out and yell at kids in my neighborhood to relax now...

Yes, the length of time required to download everything is a real drag. The program doesn't do everything L3 did. Notes need great improvement. The morph search is considerably less than friendly. I think, however, that L4 has promise and will in time not disappoint (no, I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy). I think you were wise to get it while you could still get a reduced price. You might wish to continue to use L3 for a time until improvements are made in L4. I will say that I now do most of my reading in L4 since I find the floating panel (with the locator bar displayed) and the automatic saving of one's place in the book makes reading quite easy. I would therefore recommend doing your reading in L4 but your study in L4.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48469#Comment_48469

"In case you haven't already found it (though i suspect you have), there's a list of new features here: http://www.logos.com/4/newfeatures."

This is all I get when I go to the link.....

<picture>

There was an obvious typo in that link. You can just remove the extraneous "." at the end and it will work, but here's the corrected link to save you the bother:

http://www.logos.com/4/newfeatures

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48479#Comment_48479

I would therefore recommend doing your reading in L4 but your study in L4.

Interesting advice George [:D]

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48512#Comment_48512

I would therefore recommend doing your reading in L4 but your study in L4.

Interesting advice George

Yes. and while one might do their reading in L4 and their studying in L4, consideration should be given to using L4 for their notes.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48524#Comment_48524

I would therefore recommend doing your reading in L4 but your study in L4.

Interesting advice George

Yes. and while one might do their reading in L4 and their studying in L4, consideration should be given to using L4 for their notes.

L4 is totally unqualified for notes.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48570#Comment_48570

L4 is totally unqualified for notes.

I must be weird....I use L4 for notes and all.... [:S]

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48661#Comment_48661

L4 is totally unqualified for notes.

I must be weird....I use L4 for notes and all....

I suppose it would work acceptably if you don't have links to resources within the body of the note itself. Since virtually every note (not simply note file) I have has such links, L4 notes are unacceptable.

Sean Boisen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48488#Comment_48488

"In case you haven't already found it (though i suspect you have), there's a list of new features here: http://www.logos.com/4/newfeatures."

This is all I get when I go to the link.....

<picture>

There was an obvious typo in that link. You can just remove the extraneous "." at the end and it will work, but here's the corrected link to save you the bother:

http://www.logos.com/4/newfeatures

Oops!! [:$] Thanks for catching and correcting my error.