Disappointed
Comments
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Colin Ware said:
reluctant to move to L5 .... I have still not mastered L4. Having also spent $$ on some of the training aids which I am still working through I feel moving to L5 would be a waste of money
Colin,
no need to worry: L4 is still working today as it did yesterday, Logos hasn't stopped the development - they fixed many bugs and introduced new features to the latest L4 version just a week ago and are continuing development - a new beta is underway. So you may choose to stay with L4 for the moment and there's nothing wrong with it from either side.
Colin Ware said:I was somewhat taken back by the what appeared to me a sudden appearance of L5. It may have been announced earlier but I do not read forums regularly
There have been rumours about L5 for quite some time, including the officially released look-into-the-future papers for Faithlife that showed integration to L5. However, what's the problem?
Colin Ware said:While not completely L5, there are associated issues with Logos which I find frustrating .....
The issues you state all refer to functionality of the Logos website - some are known shortcomings of it, some look to me as if they were fixed some time ago. Since this is totally unrelated to L5, I'd suggest you discuss these in the website subforum if you're interested in the current state of affairs and possibly an answer from the Logos people responsible for that.
Have joy in the Lord!
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If my memory is correct concerning databases and datasets, A dataset contains the resultant data of a search performed on a database to aid in speed of retrieval of requested data per a particular dataset. In other words some of the work has already been done for you and put in a more convenient and speedier place for retrieval.
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Thank you SMack and SHotchkiss for your posts.
SHotchkiss, I too am in IT, and I also don't understand this mess. I create servers all day long, I support Oracle, SQL, Windows Servers, Cisco gear, NAS devices, Linux servers, phone systems, high availability clusters, and internet connections.
All this technology and automation, and from Logos we're told the high prices we pay is for indexing and single pane of glass.
I'm baffled by the idea that in order to get functionality from the program we have to buy these NEW AND IMPROVED base sets, but then to justify the huge cost increase that the new sets garner, we're told it is because of all the added literary resources. This seems inconsistent. Why not just keep the base packages the same, with no additional books, and roll the features up into the new base packages with all the old books and give the upgrade to the current customers for free?
The program has now ceased to be free, and now is a pay for app.
Logos seems to be going down the same frustrating route that EMC, SAP, Oracle, IBM, and every other frustrating company that has been attempting to eek every penny out of every customer's pocket and playing games with the customers because the "loyalty" is so strong they just can.
A bunch of malarkey if you ask me.
I too have cancelled all my pre-pubs and community bids.
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That is understandable... but the facts are:
1) they have not announced any pure software upgrade version and costs;
2) the quote they provide on upgrade did not consider the extra books already purchased by the user. They are overcharging us for the upgrade.
3) They did not explain the various upgrade version to existing customer and allow us to choose. Their bundling with less desirable books is an unethical sales.
Shame on them.
Augustine Chow
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Augustine Cyril Chow said:
the facts are:
Well let's check what the facts are:
Augustine Cyril Chow said:1) they have not announced any pure software upgrade version and costs;
They have. Actually, the CEO, Bob Pritchett, himself has. The post is made sticky for everyone to see right at the top of General forum.
The cost of the pure software upgrade version are: USD 0.00, as in free
Augustine Cyril Chow said:2) the quote they provide on upgrade did not consider the extra books already purchased by the user.
Actually I have not seen one example that would prove this true. The developers say there hasn't been one issue of this happening. There was one book on the first day where the title didn't make clear that it's a 2012 newly revised and enlarged edition. No one pays again for existing resources.
Wonder what the website does, what the sales people do on the phone until late at night, what Bradley, Phil, etc. do literally around the clock and over the weekend.Augustine Cyril Chow said:3) They did not explain the various upgrade version to existing customer and allow us to choose.
Your facts are bogus.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Ryan said:
A bunch of malarkey if you ask me.
Dear Ryan,
I appreciate that this thread is long, but it would be to your advantage to review some of the responses in the posts that proceed your own. You have raised a point which has been addressed previously. You have raised concerns which have been dismissed as factually incorrect.
For absolute clarity, Logos have advised that they will release both a minimal crossgrade and the L5 engine at no cost (i.e. free). The minimal crossgrade will provide you with the functionality of L5 at a lower cost. The L5 engine will provide you with the software, but not the new added functionality.
Alternatively, you are at liberty to continue to use L4 indefinitely. L4 is and continues to be supported. Indeed, I understand that further service releases are planned.
Blessings [:D]
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Ryan said:
Why not just keep the base packages the same, with no additional books, and roll the features up into the new base packages with all the old books and give the upgrade to the current customers for free?
Logos is not the only company in this mix. The publishers who own the copyrights to the resources can—and often do—require Logos to pull their packages from the base packages and sell them separately.
Ryan said:The program has now ceased to be free
Not true. The engine will still be free, as it has always been. It just has not been released yet.
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Now, now. Let's back the truck up a bit. We ran over a piece of fact.
Logos so far has NOT put out information that allows the existing customers to know whether they should upgrade or crossgrade. I'm not talking about the free engine. If you read Bob's quotes and then Phil's, it may well be the upgrade is a better path than the crossgrade price-wise. But who knows?
In my mind, unless a customer really likes the titles and the prices, they're crazy to be purchasing 'upgrades' right now.
Are they SURE that the crossgrade will appear before their 30-day return runs out??
But it's not by accident quite a few 'star' people are quietly waiting. Experienced Logosians.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Bob Pritchett said:
In every case you just get (and only pay for!) what's different between what you have and what you're getting
Sorry to correct, but that is not necessarily true. When I looked to upgrade, I went to the "what's new to you" tab and looked at the resources and found in the first list 3-4 books that I currently have that I bought with Logos 4 Platnium. So I am going to have to purchase, again, those same books. One example is the New American Commentary. I know that they added some more voulmes to that since in came out in Logos 4, but the "what's new to you" tab said that I am purchasing 40 volumes. Hmmmm???? They have not added 40 volumes to that collection since Logos 4. Also the Cascadia.....I bought that with Logos 4, I have to but that again. That is just a couple of things.
I think that Logos need to stop, and not wait to make THEIR language on the web site right by their customers, but do something immediately. The language that you use on some parts of the web site are misleading and Bob needs to do something to make it right!
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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Jack Caviness said:
Not true. The engine will still be free, as it has always been. It just has not been released yet.
I have yet to find the Logos 5 engine for free!!!
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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Jack Caviness said:Ryan said:
The program has now ceased to be free
Not true. The engine will still be free, as it has always been. It just has not been released yet.
Andy Evans said:Ryan said:A bunch of malarkey if you ask me.
For absolute clarity, Logos have advised that they will release both a minimal crossgrade and the L5 engine at no cost (i.e. free). The minimal crossgrade will provide you with the functionality of L5 at a lower cost. The L5 engine will provide you with the software, but not the new added functionality.
It's not free if you have to pay for new functionality. Functionality increases should be a part of upgrades. Logos is a Book publisher that provides a good reading and studying tool. The only reason I have Logos books and not Amazon books is because of the software that the books are in. I'm purchasing books at a premium because they run in the software Logos has provided.As soon as there's a premium maintained on the purchase of books (because the software is just so awesome), and a premium applied for increased functionality (translate this to awesomeness) of the application, the net benefit gained for the total cost of ownership seems cost prohibitive. I'm paying twice, I'm paying a premium for the books because of the well working application, and I'm paying a premium to have the application work well.Why not have amazon pricing and charge for the application? Or why not maintain high priced resources and make the full functionality of the application free? As soon as you deviate from either of these two models the original justifications for high priced books or free software has been abandoned.Andy Evans said:The minimal crossgrade will provide you with the functionality of L5 at a lower cost.THE ABOVE IS NOT FREEThere's some strong coolaid up in this joint...0 -
Why was Logos 5 bundled in this manner? We all know why, right? I mean the "elephant" has been sitting in the room this whole time and we have managed not to talk about him. Alright I will say it but this will quickly be branded another conspiracy theory or expression of greed by certain users who frequent these forums.
It is because creating an ecosystem of Christian digital products is very costly, and until these other products (and maybe future ones yet to be announced) are hopefully self-sustaining, understandably any company must leverage their core product line in order to carry these start-up products through the RD cycle.
Here is what concerns me, and maybe you, as a customer of Logos' wonderful Bible software program. I have carefully considered all these other products, and while I appreciate their value and the risk Logos is taking to make them available to me, at the present time I am only interested in one of them, this one - Logos X.
I will continue using my Kindle, and where necessary paying for duplicate resources from the Kindle library. I wish there was a straight-forward method of placing a readable version of my Logos resources onto my Kindle. It can be done; I am managing with the help of free third-party application. I appreciate the occasional free Vyrso e-book. True most I have or do not interest me, but that is very kind of them to offer. However, I would not complain if this had to cease due to cost. I can only assume they are doing this for now to entice folks to become Vyrso customers.
The little assembly (church) where I fellowship cannot utilize Proclaim at the present, and most likely ever to be honest. Faithlife looks interesting, it really does, but I struggle (maybe like you) to participate in weekly Bible study with the believers at the assembly (we interface the old fashion way face-to-face), so the thought of adding another study/discussion online has no appeal to me. I do not need yet another study Bible - I have a lot of them already - thanks Logos!
I realize my present consideration of these other products may change in time, and that for others they may already be involved in some or all of them now. I am not here second guessing Logos, and hope they do well in all these ventures. I really do.
All I want from Logos as a customer is that they continue to make a stellar Bible program and offer competitive pricing for the resources. Well, actually they also have the benefit of many customers tied to significant investments in their favour, so I suppose the competitiveness is somewhat reduced. I share all this to make this one statement that I believe is reasonable and logical given all the information that has been provided to us by Logos over the last year or so: It would seem to me that this is why the initial roll-out of Logos 5 has come with bundles, and I do worry that further business growth initiatives by Logos may adversely affect me with regards to the cost of resources for their Bible software.
At present I am convinced they have the best product available, and it would take a stellar effort by their competitor, or a significantly poor decision by Logos themselves, to lose me as a customer. Like many prudent customers, I am currently waiting for the cross-grade option, an option that would not be coming so soon if it had not been for all the expressions of concern and disappointment by long-time customers, many with low forum post counts, that suggest to me that this issue has been significant enough to them to make the effort to post. True, there have been comments expressing greed, and why stop there - vanity, and pride as well, but so many others have been more than reasonable and respectful, and so ill-deserving of the reaction by certain others who obviously love Logos very much, whom I love very much too (we are talking about the Logos that became flesh, right?).
Regards
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DMB said:
We ran over a piece of fact.
Well, the one piece of "fact" I choose to overlook was the accusation that putting resources into a bundle or package, and thus combining stuff a user values more or less, is per se unethical. I couldn't think of an answer that wouldn't be equivalent to a pointer towards the recycling industry.
DMB said:Logos so far has NOT put out information that allows the existing customers to know whether they should upgrade or crossgrade. .... it may well be the upgrade is a better path than the crossgrade price-wise
For those who don't want any of the newly bundled resources, the Crossgrade will be. For those eager to see the new resources, not. For those on the fence, you're right that waiting for more details is the way to go.
DMB said:SURE that the crossgrade will appear before their 30-day return runs out?
Predictions are difficult, especially insofar as they concern the future. However, Phil announced the crossgrade for well within that period. But I don't expect lots of people to give back their upgrade packages.
DMB said:it's not by accident quite a few 'star' people are quietly waiting.
It's not an issue to wait until one has all the information needed to make a decision, rather it's prudent. However, that was not the point why I answered the post.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
Wonder what the website does, what the sales people do on the phone until late at night, what Bradley, Phil, etc. do literally around the clock and over the weekend.Augustine Cyril Chow said:3) They did not explain the various upgrade version to existing customer and allow us to choose.
Your facts are bogus.
I agree with most of what you say except this. I'd be guessing, but my guess is that the majority of Logos users never make it to the forums (if the people on the forums over the past week or two account for most people that have Logos, I suspect their profits would be much lower than 0.38%).
The only information about upgrades other than upgrading to another base package is only available here on the forums and if you dont know where to look, you'll miss it. That info should be available on the website, to allow customers to make an informed decision, even if it just says that it is coming soon and hasnt been priced yet.
Not readily giving out that info leads people to believe that their only upgrade path to L5 is to purchase a base package. Not true, but they dont know that because no one bothered to tell them (a forum announcement doesnt count unless it is linked to from the upgrade page or emailed to existing customers).
They need to post in an easy to locate spot, a page like this: http://www.logos.com/4ways even if options 2+ just give a few details and say they are coming soon.
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I have over $5,000 cash invested in Logos to date, but I just cancelled all of the following-
If you find any of the Logos 5 stuff unsettling, I urge you to do the same thing.
Logos probably has all of these numbers charted and graphed out, with calculations of how much a resource actually gets from a bid and the likelihood of the bidder purchasing etc., same with all the pre-pubs. A mass cancelling would really gum up a lot of these reports, and I think really send the message across that these types of business shenanigans aren't a way to keep customers happy and new resources coming.
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Ryan said:
It's not free if you have to pay for new functionality. Functionality increases should be a part of upgrades.
Respectfully, I would ask why? Why should Logos just give away datasets? They may choose to do so, but to criticise them when they don't is, to my mind, unreasonable. We are told that the said datasets are the result of many months labour. Why should one presume that we are entitled to receive them at no cost?
Ryan said:The only reason I have Logos books and not Amazon books is because of the software that the books are in. I'm purchasing books at a premium because they run in the software Logos has provided.
And, as I and others have repeatedly stated, your books will continue to work in L4 and will work with the functionality of L4 within L5. What you will not get is the functionality associated with the new datasets which were developed at cost.
Ryan said:There's some strong...
I would ask you to read my post above. Feel free to review my previous posts. Do you find any evidence that I have previously resorted to insults? I would be exceedingly grateful, therefore, if you could respond in kind.
I appreciate we may disagree on this matter (we are each entitled to our respective view points). I would expect, however, that we do so with courtesy and respect as is fitting in a forum connected with Bible study software.
Blessings
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Joshua Coady said:
I'd be guessing, but my guess is that the majority of Logos users never make it to the forums
Maybe you are right, but I'm not sure. there are typically many many more that read such a forum without logging in than users actually signing up and writing. I suspect Logos has a statistic of IPs looking at certain pages, but I'm not sure whether they want to share it.
Joshua Coady said:They need to post in an easy to locate spot, a page like this: http://www.logos.com/4ways even if options 2+ just give a few details and say they are coming soon.
Actually this page seemed to be a well-kept secret for (would-be) L4 users as well - I have pointed to it very often throughout the last year and a half. My expectation is there will be such a site, or maybe this exact one, updated to reflect the L5 upgrade.
An even better place to announce the Crossgrade would be the L4 Homepage (maybe drawn from a blog post, which would then probably be automatically featured on faithbook and twitter as well).
Have joy in the Lord!
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Well, I feel like a lot of you must feel: really put upon by Logos. There's no way in the world I'm going to spend over $600 for an upgrade when it should come free. And the books they offer are of no interest to me. Logos is a company I'd come to trust and still believe to be Christian-based; but honesty compels me to say that there's truly been a great chasm of misunderstanding in what most of us understood would happen when new software upgrades were made available.
As for the upgrade to Logus 5, thanks, but no thanks until the "crossover" come out, whatever that means and whenever it happens.
Lonnie Ritchie
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I was considering forum "lurkers" in my guestimate. (Normally about 5-10% of forum readers will ever post anything)
My point was simply that they did not do a good job of making it clear that there were more upgrade paths than a full base package upgrade costing hundreds of dollars for most people, and as far as I can tell are still not doing a good job of it.
I got a L5 announcement email today in my inbox. No mention of how it affects upgrades, but that's ok, that's not really what the story in the email was about. All buttons/links for L5 in the email go to the logos home page. On the home page there are basically two big advertised ways to get L5 info: a button for Learn more which goes to the features page and an upgrade/compare&buy button that goes to the detailed comparison page. At this point, there should at least be a link for more info for other upgrade options for existing users. Doesnt have to be big, but it needs to be there. The text could just be "Other upgrade options" and linked to another page or blog post about crossgrades. Make it any more difficult than that to find and you are asking for problems.
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Andy Evans said:
Respectfully, I would ask why? Why should Logos just give away datasets? They may choose to do so, but to criticise them when they don't is, to my mind, unreasonable. We are told that the said datasets are the result of many months labour. Why should one presume that we are entitled to receive them at no cost?When a business or individual outright buys software, we usually pay support or have some agreement that includes increased functionality and covers the labor it takes to develop it.
The premium I pay on book titles from Logos is same as the support I am paying for in the software I purchase as a business or individual, which includes the increased functionality through updates and service packs.
This does nothing to address what I would like to happen, which would be a group of disgruntled nerds who might know how to program or know databasing, that could very well start an open source model to do everything Logos does with the software, but with Amazon books.
We see this happening with the companies I previously mentioned, EMC, SAP, Oracle, IBM, etc. are all losing customers to more efficient, lower cost solutions, self-developed solutions, or linux and open source solutions.
I'm paying a premium for Logos books because of the functionality offered to the books, the rationale for the premium I pay is negated when I have to pay double; once for the new features and then again on the premium paid for on the books.
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Joshua Coady said:
On the home page there are basically two big advertised ways to get L5 info: a button for Learn more which goes to the features page and an upgrade/compare&buy button that goes to the detailed comparison page. At this point, there should at least be a link for more info for other upgrade options for existing users. Doesnt have to be big, but it needs to be there. The text could just be "Other upgrade options" and linked to another page or blog post about crossgrades.
I think you are offering a good suggestion here - maybe someone from Logos will take note and implement it.
Btw: Bob just some minutes ago offered more details on the planned Crossgrade in the thread in General. I think they are getting this worked out now, and when the first storm of upgrades is over (with all the stress this imposed on the company and its people and servers), they'll refine the communication channels.
Have joy in the Lord!
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In the past I have been one of those not happy with my L4 Mac experience and have been quite vocal, in a virtual sense, on this forum about that but after receiving a personal email from Bob concerning my disappointment with L4 and reading in his response what I feel to be sincere regret that His product did not meet expectations, I truly felt shamed for my behavior. I do not believe as myself in the past and others currently are stating, that Bob or Logos are out to cheat anyone or develop their products to be anything less than what they intend them to be and that is a quality product that meets the expectations of it's users.
But, sometimes the best laid plans don't work out as well as we'd expect. Bob is not God nor anyone on his staff and they cannot see what appears to be good sound choices not turning out as well as they expected so then they have to live with that but still try to correct it and keep people happy. Some decisions and the fixes that go with them just never seem to pan out because the initial choice was a bigger mistake that first thought or unseen circumstances create even more problems. I think, as Bob has freely shared in the past, this is what happened with much of L4 Mac development.
He regrouped and continued to try and correct the problems and that move has developed into L5 which from first indications has solved many of the problems and looks to be on a good course. If there is any delay in the announcement of a free engine or cross grade pricing it is not because Bob or Logos is out to get anyone or be disloyal to it's customer base, it is more than likely because they want to ensure the least possible issues with it and provide the product we the loyal user base would expect from them. Please don't be like me and have to regret slandering a brother who doesn't deserve it.
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Ryan said:
When a business or individual outright buys software, we usually pay support or have some agreement that includes increased functionality and covers the labor it takes to develop it.
The reason I continue to paying a premium on book titles from Logos is the support I pay for in the software I purchase as a business or individual.I do take your point, but my understanding is that the anticipated cost of the minimal crossgrade is related to new datasets and new integrated resources which are intrinsically linked with the new functionality. I have seen Logos employees refer to said datasets as resources (suggesting that these datasets are, perhaps, closer akin to, say, the Cascadia material). This then makes sense of how Logos is able to differentiate between the L5 engine and a minimal crossgrade.
I would also question your evaluation of the connection between the cost of Logos resources and the development of the software. I do not recall reading anything from a Logos employee which suggests that they strategically overcharge on books in order to fund the development of the software. Generally, when the price of a resource is challenged, Logos refer to publisher-related costs and the costs associated with the added value of formatting, tagging, etc (which distinguishes a Logos resource from, say, the same resource in Kindle or even Vyrso format). For clarity, I do not deny that there is a connection, but would propose that your formulation is perhaps a little crude and, as such, potentially misleading.
In summary, it is my view that Logos will provide an upgrade to L5 at no cost, but will not provide associated resources (datasets) which provide you with a functionality above and beyond that afforded by your present library (be this in L2, L3 or L4). Notwithstanding this, I understand your rationale and acknowledge your disagreement with Logos' business philosophy. As a customer, you are entitled to do so and entitled to upgrade or otherwise [:D] You are also as entitled to express your opinion and feedback (be it positive or negative) as I or any other customer.
And I do appreciate your response and feel I understand your position a little better. Thank you.
Blessings
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Mark O'Hearn said:
I mean the "elephant" has been sitting in the room
Bob has been very clear about wanting to increase the Logos customer base beyond "the pastor and that other guy in the church". Any company that wants to stay in business needs to grow and make a profit. Companies that don't reinvest at least some of that profit in the business go out of business. All of us who have purchased Logos resources have a vested interest in them staying in business. Like many others I have had to purchase electronic resources more than once due to changes in company ownership/format (Quickverse), bad management (Biblesoft) or buggy software with an unsustainable roadmap on my platform of choice. I still have one commentary set for Logos that I purchased on floppy disk and that Logos no longer has a license for. That commentary still downloaded when I did a new install of L5 so I believe Logos's promise that I will never need to buy a book twice.
As Bob has pointed out in another thread there profit margin is not what anyone would consider excessive. With L5 I understand that they had to pay for extra server capacity to handle the initial demand. The crossgrade option or free engine will be the best choices financially for a lot of long-time customers but I have no problem with Logos being prudent and utilizing server capacity (which isn't free) to prioritize customers who do wnat the more expensive upgrade options. I too feel the urge to have a shinny new toy the day it comes out but I understand that companies need to make decisions that will help them stay in business. [:O]
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Ryan, I think there's still some evidence of confusion in your comments...
Ryan said:I'm paying a premium for Logos books because of the functionality offered to the books, the rationale premium I pay is negated when I have to pay double, once for the new features and then again on the premium paid for the books.
I think a big part of the problem is your understanding of what is meant by "functionality" and "datasets". You say you paid a premium for Logos books because of the functionality offered to the books. That "functionality" basically hasn't and isn't changing. All of the functionality for your existing books remains and will be enhanced by the new software engine, which is free. But L5 offers something else.
Logos is now offering "datasets"... this is just another form of content that you can choose to purchase or not purchase, as you need or desire. What Logos 5 offers is the ability to search through this new type of content, if you happen to own it. Similarly, if you didn't happen to have purchased a Greek Bible in the past, you couldn't avail yourself of L3 or L4's "functionality" of searching that Greek Bible.... or enjoy certain other things that the software had the capability of doing. You needed to purchase a corresponding resource (a Greek Bible) to see those "functions" in action. Would you have complained that L4 lacked "functionality" because you couldn't search a Greek Bible that you hadn't purchased? Of course not. This is the same kind of thing.
Once again, a "dataset" is simply a new form of content, and L5 has the ability to do some neat things with that kind of content. And it is completely unfair to expect them to give this to us for free... it is not the software that you are asking for. You are asking for a "resource", essentially, a "book" (aka, a dataset)... that has been expensively and time-consumingly "authored", "compiled" or what have you by a team of several highly specialized experts. It is biblically correct that you and I should pay these workmen for their labors. And it is in keeping with Logos' long-standing commitment, which hasn't changed: the software is free, you pay for CONTENT. It's just in this case they've introduced a new form of content than what you're used to.
But if you DON'T want or need such resources (content), you don't need to purchase them... you can get, like always, the free software (when it is released by itself in a couple of weeks). But your new software carries all of the "abilities" that it would have had if you had purchased the additional content that it has the ability to search.... maybe that isn't the cleanest, most precise way to say it... but what I am meaning to say is that you aren't getting some kind of "crippled" piece of software that is somehow incomplete. The new features that aren't associated with the specific books/datasets (content resources) won't work, because you didn't buy those specific pieces of content, but all of the functionality that affects your current books (all of it from L4 that you had purchased, and basically from L5) will still be available to you.
I don't know... maybe that isn't a very precise way of trying to explain things, and its really late here! What I'm essentially trying to do is find a way to explain what the datasets are as I'm understanding things, and that the datasets are not "part of the software", but rather, an independent piece of content like a book. Maybe seeing them in that light could make things a bit easier to understand.
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Mike W said:
I have no problem with Logos being prudent and utilizing server capacity (which isn't free) to prioritize customers who do wnat the more expensive upgrade options.
This argument doesn't sit well with me. Bandwidth and drive space is getting cheaper by the minute. With things like Amazon EC2 and the cost of a TB locally hosted, the cost is easily under under $200 per TB per month, and the bandwidth is pittance.
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A gracious and Christ-like response, Dennis! Thank you!!!
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EmileB said:
A gracious and Christ-like response, Dennis! Thank you!!!
Thanks for catching this Emile! Peace to you and to all! Dennis, a gracious and Christ-like response indeed! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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I'm in nearly the same position, Joe. Purchased Platinum in the Spring and have been totally sidelined by this. I'll be happy with a "crossgrade" when it comes available, but I'm hoping it won't take 6 months. The new updates look impressive and I don't want to miss out on them.
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Ryan said:
When a business or individual outright buys software, we usually pay support or have some agreement that includes increased functionality and covers the labor it takes to develop it.
Software usually has an end of life even if bought outright (Microsoft no longer supports Windows NT and the Office 2003 that we use on over 10,000 workstation will EOL next year. There is also usually cost for support even if support can't fix our problem. To get the ongoing updates and support you are talking about for commercial software (Microsoft, Oracle, or IBM) requires a substantial annual cost (we pay all three of these companies annual fees at my day job).
Logos is better at providing fixes and updates than any other company I've know (I'm looking at service release 4 on software that was released last Thursday) and we get lifetime support (including free upgrades to the software engine and upgrades to books).
As far as volunteers creating an alternative there are some very good free programs with good quality public domain works already available. Two of them also offer a few more current books for sale. These are good options for those who can't or won't invest in commercial software. The same thing happens with other types of software. Gimp vs Photoshop for example. While free solutions are good enough for some I doubt they will ever be competitive with commercial software (If you need Photoshop you need Photoshop) [:)]
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Mike W said:Ryan said:
When a business or individual outright buys software, we usually pay support or have some agreement that includes increased functionality and covers the labor it takes to develop it.
Software usually has an end of life even if bought outright (Microsoft no longer supports Windows NT and the Office 2003 that we use on over 10,000 workstation will EOL next year. There is also usually cost for support even if support can't fix our problem. To get the ongoing updates and support you are talking about for commercial software (Microsoft, Oracle, or IBM) requires a substantial annual cost (we pay all three of these companies annual fees at my day job).
Logos is better at providing fixes and updates than any other company I've know (I'm looking at service release 4 on software that was released last Thursday) and we get lifetime support (including free upgrades to the software engine and upgrades to books).
My argument is that the premium I pay for Logos resources is akin to the support agreement I have for commercial software.
I support this argument with the following-
Bob Pritchett said:So if Logos is a retailer, why don't we chop 25% off the list price, like Amazon or some web retailer? Because we don't (yet) have similar cost structures. Our sale of the book for Logos format costs more to execute and support than Amazon's. Amazon gets a paper copy, puts it in a database, and ships copies to you. Then they're done. We do more technical work, have to continue to update the software engine, provide tech support, etc. (Amazon may have to support you on the Kindle, but that's easier than supporting Logos desktop software, and you had to pay the for the Kindle. Our software was "free" -- with the cost of writing it supported from our cut of the book's sale.)
...
If you think the full-retail price for a Baker title is too much, you can buy it in paper at lots of prices, on the Kindle, soon on the iPad, etc. If Baker and Logos are going to charge full-retail for a Logos-compatible edition, it needs to be worth it, in both tagging, functionality, support, and timeliness. If not, you will all take your business elsewhere.
Bob Pritchett said:Alas, the electronic market is still smaller than the print market. (Amazing, isn't it?) So while production costs on electronic are similar to print (we don't pay for typesetting or paper, but we do much more extensive tagging and data preparation, and we have to "re-invent the printing press" every few years -- i.e. develop the software platform.)
These statements seem to indicate that the price we pay for books is inclusive of tagging, software updates, etc. The "buying a Logos book experience" if you will.
It's not just some simple Amazon book for reading, you're buying in to Logos, and the capabilities of the software. That's why I purchased Logos versions of BDAG, HALOT, NICOT/NICNT instead of new/used/kindle. I was buying the books AND the development of the software platform, the "re-invent the printing press" premium I paid for a Logos literary resource.
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Pastor Michael Huffman said:
One example is the New American Commentary. I know that they added some more voulmes to that since in came out in Logos 4, but the "what's new to you" tab said that I am purchasing 40 volumes.
(I may have missed it, but I don't think this was answered here, though it's been answered in many other places.)
No, it's saying that at present you don't have the whole 40 volume set, but if you purchase that package you will. You only pay for the volumes you don't have, however, the rest have been credited.
Pastor Michael Huffman said:Jack Caviness said:Not true. The engine will still be free, as it has always been. It just has not been released yet.
I have yet to find the Logos 5 engine for free!!!
Like Jack said: "It just has not been released yet". It will be. Just wait a few weeks.
Matt Fontes said:I'll be happy with a "crossgrade" when it comes available, but I'm hoping it won't take 6 months.
The latest info is 1-2 weeks.
EDIT: The latest info just changed to 'next week if nothing unforeseen happens'.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Ryan said:
My argument is that the premium I pay for Logos resources is akin to the support agreement I have for commercial software.
And we all get the updates to books and a free upgrade of the underlying software engine (not to mention phone support) for as long as we own the resources. I don't expect new resources for free (some of the additional functionality in L4 over L3 and in L5 over L4 require(d) additional content to make them useful). Like everyone else who uses Logos I regularly receive updates to books which include corrections and additional linking to new resources as well as free updates to the software itself. Logos has promised that we will always be able to use our resources and that the software to use those resources will be free. So far it seems that they have kept their promise.
Logos has promised that the L5 engine will be available for free before too long. Any customer can get that and benefit from faster code and the additional functionality that doesn't require additional resources. At the very least on the Mac side this means that we get a huge improvement in performance and full screen mode at no additional cost.
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Dennis Miller said:
after receiving a personal email from Bob concerning my disappointment with L4
Dennis: Thank you for posting this.
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Hi again!
In response to the call for examples, just try searching in Logos for something like Pauline exception. You get loads of nonsensical hits and the bible Search option yields nothing. Put the same phrase in Bing - even misspell it on purpose. Guess what? You still go directly to the relevant topic which is of course the Pauline exception on remarriage concept. The same is true on any number of other such items.
The search engine in 4 is too literal in that it does not account for typos and also it literally looks for your words one at a time or together. That type of search is fine if the searcher knows the exact spelling and working of what they seek but in all other cases it doesn't work. And really if free web searches like Bing are context intelligent than Legos should be in all versions out of the box - not as a paid upgrade.
As to scamming, I stated that this feels like one not that it is one. I am more than willing to be convinced that it is not and is instead just a communication mistake.
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Joel Tamburo said:
Put the same phrase in Bing - even misspell it on purpose
If you are willing to maintain a large server farm, you too can have desktop Bing. If you read any computer books on how searches are processed in Bing, Google, etc. and the resources these searches require, you will understand why it cannot be done on your desktop - it has to be done on large server farms. In addition if you don't stop at the 1st or 2nd page, you often find that search engine results are as absurd as some of the Logos mismatches. Why? because Logos uses the same basic logic and technology ... pared down to desktop size. As for Bing and Google recognizing misspelling, I often have trouble getting them to search for what I want because their spell-checker thinks it knows more about what I want than I do. It's a two-edged sword for which I prefer the option of suggested not automatic "correction".
All of which is to say, compare Logos to other desktop applications not to huge server-farm applications. The latter will make you green with envy chasing a (currently) impossible dream app.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
As for Bing and Google recognizing misspelling, I often have trouble getting them to search for what I want because their spell-checker thinks it knows more about what I want than I do. It's a two-edged sword for which I prefer the option of suggested not automatic "correction".
Indeed! Try searching Google for Logos and you will get not only logos and logo's, but also an awful lot of logo's. Restrict the search to images and it will look like this:
I think Bob would prefer that page to look a little differently.[:D]
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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I don't understand your confusion. You pay for content, and you keep your content across software upgrades. So the books you received with your L4 platinum will still be with you when you "upgrade" to the L5 software, package names notwithstanding. Logos will not erase the content from your library you previously paid to use in old versions. Wait around for the minimal crossgrade and simply upgrade to the new version at a cheap price. Keep your old content in the new system and call it whatever you want. Named packages are pricey, and they help Logos sell content I would otherwise not purchase (or use...ever). They have to walk a line to make money on digital content. Aside from not selling many individual commentaries, Logos has been very accommodating to me.
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Ryan said:
This argument doesn't sit well with me. Bandwidth and drive space is getting cheaper by the minute. With things like Amazon EC2 and the cost of a TB locally hosted, the cost is easily under under $200 per TB per month, and the bandwidth is pittance.
The bigger cost for Logos is the free customer support that they offer. This is very expensive and getting to be less common all the time.
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My comment about bandwidth was a response to-
[quote]I have no problem with Logos being prudent and utilizing server capacity (which isn't free) to prioritize customers who do wnat the more expensive upgrade options.
If we want to discuss the cost of free customer support as factored into the expense of the software, that's a different discussion.
Food for thought, I embrace Redbox, and celebrate the bankruptcy of Blockbuster.
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SHotchkiss said:
I work with SQL databases all day. I do not understand any of these explanations.
For a query in a SQL database to return data, the underlying tables needs rows containing the desired data.
Logos 5 has expanded the library database infrastructure: e.g. Bible Sense Lexicon in Tools. The new software engine includes new data type definitions. Without resources containing appropriate data, using the new features is like select * from [an empty table] that returns nothing even though [an empty table] can have lots of columns with various data types.
Minimal crossgrades will include purchase options for the human refined data in the new Logos 5 data sets: e.g. Reported Speech.
The Logos 5 upgrade rules have changed. The dynamic pricing engine calculates credit for all resource licenses in all package upgrades, including Verbum. Thankful for option to choose different Logos package(s). Noticed Logos 5 Starter package includes 4 of the 16 new data sets plus a number of media resources and Bible Reference resources. The Silver package includes 15 of the 16 new data sets plus more resources. The Gold package has resources for all the new Logos 5 features.
To encourage sales of larger packages, Logos has additional % discount during launch promotion: e.g. up to 30 % off for upgrade to Logos 5 Portfolio package, whose content bundling has changed. The upgrade page shows an icon "New to you" if an upgrade has one or more new resources: e.g. NAC Commentary of 40 volumes has "New" icon when only 1 would be added; personally wish for a count of new resources to appear with "New to you" icon.
Am aware of a Logos 4 Platinum user who is planning a Logos Silver "upgrade" for $ 256.54 since the higher packages do not have enough new useful resources for that user; less expensive to purchase a few resources individually that could include minimal crossgrade for Bible Sense Lexicon. The Silver package includes Theological Lexicons of the Old and New Testaments along with the complete works of Francis A Schaeffer, whose regular prices are more than the dynamic upgrade amount.
Personally upgraded from Logos 4 Platinum to Logos 5 Portfolio; my delta upgrade cost from Diamond to Portfolio was less than 10 % of the combined regular price for a number of items in my wish list. Looking forward to using many "new" resources with Logos 5.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I hate to tell you this but there are numerous web services that do exactly what I am describing. Also, the ability to accommodate mild misspellings can be simply programmed (I have done it myself before) with a simple routine that starts inserting wildcards into words that do not appear in the exact spelling.
The point is that a Bible study program is all about its search engine. Bad search engine means the program is not that good. A really good search engine means the program prospers.
By the way, just to really see I installed QuickVerse Platinum 2009 and tried the phrases - it hit with no issues. QuickVerse (before it was bought out) sold for rather a lot less than Logos and even back in its 09 version had proper search.
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Joel Tamburo said:
I hate to tell you this but there are numerous web services that do exactly what I am describing. Also, the ability to accommodate mild misspellings can be simply programmed (I have done it myself before) with a simple routine that starts inserting wildcards into words that do not appear in the exact spelling.
<editted out my qualifications> We are talking of PC applications which have to run under the constraints of an average family computer equipment budget. In addition, your description of the routine sound suspiciously like an English routine - inflected languages such as Latin, Spanish and Greek need a somewhat different approach. Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic I'm not qualified to speak on. German and Turkish give me a headaches ... and then there are those little issues with non-alphabetic or semi-alphabetic languages ... Chinese, Japanese ... those users seem to have inordinate problems with searching their texts ... something about typos.When Bing allows me to do root, stem and cognate searches I promise to be impressed. In the meantime I will pay for Logos to do what Bing does not and use Google/X1 to do what Logos does not.
PS. I will admit that Bing is the search engine that brings out my saltiest language ... (it only took me twenty some years to use the first pound of salt I purchased so I obviously have very salty language.[:D])
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
PS. I will admit that Bing is the search engine that brings out my saltiest language ... (it only took me twenty some years to use the first pound of salt I purchased so I obviously have very salty language.
)Could you make a sailor blush? [^o)]
Just a bit tired of reading the same objections from the same posters across multiple threads.
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Why was Len Stitt's comment removed?
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Wondered that myself. Here it is again.
The Logos pricing and marketing strategy are more than a bit deceptive and no longer worth pursuing.
This
said from a user who bought the very first Logos program decades ago
and has spent MANY thousands of dollars to get to the level of use
(Platinum Edition) that I have currently.Today I am in the process of removing all my pre-publication orders.
Good-bye from a long-time, loyal and now dissatisfied missionary user of Logos products.
Len Stitt
Executive Director
Sozo International
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Just guessing here: Maybe the forum software removed it automatically as a potential spam post since Mr. Stitt posted the same identical text to several forums.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Leonard T. Stitt said:
The Logos pricing and marketing strategy are more than a bit deceptive and no longer worth pursuing.
Len, perhaps you've misunderstood something. To the best of my knowledge, we're not being deceptive anywhere. I hate deception in marketing, and as the Director of Marketing I take charges of deception very seriously. Can you please point me to where you think our messaging has been deceptive so I can correct it or work to clear up any misunderstanding? Thanks!
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Not exactly. I received an e-mail of a posting from Graham Kriddle:
Hi Len - and welcome to the
forums.I would suggest you contact
Logos directly to air your concerns. While Logos personnel do contribute to
these forums they are mostly frequented by users who can't address grievances
with Logos pricing and marketing strategy.If, however, there are
specific issues that we can potentially help clarify then please post back.Graham
---------------------------------
I actually have written to Logos directly (and it is very difficult to find an e-mail address for addressing concerns - hence the post on the forum).
As a long-time user, I thought it was appropriate to submit a post since others were doing so also.
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