Disappointed
Comments
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Faithlife being free/service/free trial... I'm still a little unclear about this one.
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The exact date is probably announced around wednesday plus 2 days/minus 1 day (my guesses), but I haven't seen it determined officially anywhere quite yet. IMO like I've said somewhere before, it's good that they think carefully what to include in the crossgrades.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Thanks Phil:
Happy to comment.
When the Logos 5 Upgrade was announced, and even now when one goes to the upgrade page, there is no mention of any minimal upgrade or crossgrade, which gives the distinct impression (as it did to me) that the only way to get the new version of Logos is to pay the large upgrade price.
The only way I could find any information on the crossgrade was by looking on the forums and just happening to find a link to a posting by Bob Pritchett - which I can no longer locate.
If you type in "logos 5 crossgrade" or "logos 5 upgrade" on the Logos search engine, you get no links or information regarding the Logos 5 crossgrade.
In this regard, here is a recent post this morning on another forum by James Jordan:
"Just called in and spoke to a Logos sales person asking if I could go
ahead and purchase the crossgrade. I was told that he hasn't heard
anything about an ETA on the minimal crossgrade and it would not be this
week.Now to dig up where I saw that ETA and see if this is a Logos internal communication issue or someone giving bad information."
When the merchant provides no ready information on other forthcoming options for their product it appears that the merchant does not want potential customers to know that cheaper options are forthcoming. I consider that deceptive.
If the information on upcoming free system-only software upgrade or minimal crossgrade options been included on the upgrade page in the first place, I doubt I would have complained at all, and would have considered one of these options.
This information is not clearly or readily accessible - even now.
Len
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Leonard T. Stitt said:
This information is not clearly or readily accessible - even now.
I agree that we shouldn't have to come to the forums to find this out.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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I agree that information on the upgrade page would have avoided some of the misunderstandings here.
Leonard T. Stitt said:just happening to find a link to a posting by Bob Pritchett - which I can no longer locate.
You answered directly to it here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58259/423339.aspx#423339 (which was your first post, according to your forum activity page which is linked behind your name in your posts). You can locate posts you replied to by clicking on the blue text "replied".
Have joy in the Lord!
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Thanks NB.Mick.
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Todd Phillips said:Leonard T. Stitt said:
This information is not clearly or readily accessible - even now.
I agree that we shouldn't have to come to the forums to find this out.
I'm a developer for a company using a large enterprise software package where I'm responsible for doing customization for my customer's company. If I had a nickel for every time I've finished my development but had to wait for the communications bureaucracy to approve and distribute their user communications before I could deploy my changes, I could retire! [:D] However, having watched the bedlam that has resulted with the L5 launch, I now have a better appreciation for why I've had to patiently wait to implement my changes. Sadly, this might be a good case study on the subject. I will say...regardless of why it happened the way it did, my heart does go out to those on the front line dealing with the repercussions. Been there...done that!
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I'm starting to understand the concept, but I'm still stuck with something that doesn't make sense to me. I own Scholars Platinum (JG). When I go to the Gold L5 Upgrade page and click on "New to You" the only resources it shows me not yet owning are: The Lexham English Septuagint, Themelios 1–37 (1975–2012) (111 issues), and Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition. But my upgrade price is $550. Does this mean I would be paying $550 for the software upgrade plus only these 3 resources? That seems significantly out of proportion with the pricing of my earlier upgrades and packages.
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I Just got off the phone with the sales department, I'm extremely disappointed with the perspective put forward by Logos regarding this upgrade, and by the general lack of interest in their loyal user base. When I purchased Logos 4 (Silver), before I paid to upgrade to Platinum, what I was told is that I was buying the resources, that all the base usability, features and functions were part of the base engine, and that base engine upgrades were free. I was merely buying resources to give that base engine objects to work with.
Per the sales guy today, what I'm hearing is that Logos has changed their tune. Not the base engine is free, but it won't include added features, functionality, etc. Those are different, and will be sold as part of a crossgrade / minimal crossgrade, somewhere later in time - somewhere that is, as yet, undefined.
The sales guy was quite adamant that I should pay for the added "features" my position was that the features are part of the base engine, which previously was free, and that the discontent that I and some, if not many, are expressing is that the Logos has changed their game, by attempting to add a third category to the mix, where previously you had the base engine and the resources, now you have the base engine, the resources, and the features and functionality of the new software - which you should pay for.
Pretty disappointed that Logos has gone this was, but I can tell you that their sales staff is extremely unapologetic about it, and suggested that if I don't like it - I can go ahead and sell my copy of the software.
Great customer service, and it seems that the management at Logos doesn't seem to understand that it costs less to keep an existing customer, than it does to acquire a new one.
Disappointed.
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Duane ... the part on charging for 'features' is probably not new. They used to call them 'Add-ons'. I still use Libronix and sometimes wonder how I got them.
But the marketing drive IS curious. From what I understand, a person can spend $25,000 (not me) with Logos and still be regarded the same as someone that purchased a package and nothing else, back in the CD days.
Now, in a way, maybe that's good? They treat non-purchasing people like purchasing people. Just like the NT suggested, I guess. Though I kind of doubt that was indeed their reason.
Actually, having spent many years in business (like many others), I can't fathom what their strategy is. The Marketing Director said they misjudged on people wanting resources 90% off. I'd of hinted 'what resources?'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I just checked my upgrade price from L4 Scholars Platinum (JG) to L5 Silver - $255. But the "new to you" comparison tool indicates that the only new resources I'd be getting are the same 3 I would get if I upgraded to L5 Gold for $550: The Lexham English Septuagint, Themelios 1–37 (1975–2012) (111 issues), and Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition.
So it seems quite evident that the pricing isn't based on what resources I already own and what new ones I will be getting, but on the name/level of the package I will be purchasing. Why should I pay an extra $225 for no additional resources?
trying to figure this out ...
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Duane Powers said:
I Just got off the phone with the sales department, I'm extremely disappointed with the perspective put forward by Logos regarding this upgrade, and by the general lack of interest in their loyal user base. When I purchased Logos 4 (Silver), before I paid to upgrade to Platinum, what I was told is that I was buying the resources, that all the base usability, features and functions were part of the base engine, and that base engine upgrades were free. I was merely buying resources to give that base engine objects to work with.
A common misunderstanding is that we only pay for resources, everything else is free. It hasn't meant that since at least Libronix. In Libronix add-ons were required to have all the possible functionality of Libronix. They were either included in a base package, or were available for purchase separately - in fact some were only available by purchasing a base package; others only by separate purchase.
In Logos4 the add-on concept was dropped, and functionality was tied to resources and base packages. So the engine was free and the resources you bought basically determined the functionality you had. Which means if you bought a lower-end base package in Logos4 you did not have all the functionality you would have if you bought a higher end package. I don't remember anymore which Logos4 functions required which base package or above. Maybe someone else can chime in.
In Logos5 this is basically the same. The engine will be free, but to get all the possible functionality Logos offers you will either need to buy the Gold package or above (plus the Septuagint, if you want that added feature), or wait for the crossgrades that will come our way sometime soon.
A base engine is fully functional, that is, it works without any addins/upgrades/additional purchases, but doesn't give all possible functionality. Does that make sense?
Note that the free engine, when released will be fully functional (in the sense mentioned above). And you will retain all the functionality you now enjoy with your Logos4 package. If you want the new features, you'll need to pay for them.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Greg ... are you SURE you're reading their chart right. Others have been confused by it. As I understand, the 'new to you' stays the same regardless of which package you click on. You have to follow the 'dots' (though I'm not sure what they mean since there's no explanation).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Duane Powers said:
... I was merely buying resources to give that base engine objects to work with. ...
As I understand it, in a couple weeks when the free L5 engine update become available, it will have all of the features built in. Some features of the base engine need certain types of resources to work. If you dont have any of these resources to make it work, then they wont show you (or will alter) the UI for that feature. What you are purchasing with a minimal cross-grade is all of the resources needed to make all of the features of the new L5 engine have something to work on.
This was the same in L4, just being expanded in L5. For example, in L4 (and L5) with a properly tagged Bible the engine can show you the Louw-Nida numbers for each word. Additionally, if you have Louw-Nida, those numbers will be clickable and take you to that entry.
People that are running on L5 Starter and those that are running on L5 Portfolio both have the same app engine installed. The only difference is the set of resources they have purchased.
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That being said, they definitely could make this more clear on the features page by noting which features require resources to function that are currently only available with certain base package levels (and eventually available as a separate cross-grade purchase).
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FYI. This may help some understand what they are looking at.
“... every day in which I do not
penetrate more deeply into the knowledge of God’s Word in Holy Scripture
is a lost day for me. I can only move forward with certainty upon the
firm ground of the Word of God.”0 -
Dewayne ... you're now the resident expert! So, what do the black dots mean? I notice you don't have any.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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All dots in the highlighted column were meant to be black, but there is a bug causing some or all of them to stay gray (the bug seems to be related to what browser you are using and/or if you have recently cleared your browser's cache).
A dot (regardless of color) on a non-white background means this is a resource that is part of the currently selected package.
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Ah so.
Yes, I'd given up on the black dots since sometimes they were in columns I had not selected. Plus of course I made the same mistake above, clicking on the package of interest and concluding the 'just for me' was for THAT package. That's when I figured out it was NOT just for me (without a significant contribution).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Hi MJ,
My point was simply that if Bing which is a free web based search/decision engine can properly search phrases and makes the links between names of concepts and their content (like my Pauline exception example) then PC software should be able to do it too. Note I also illustrated this by installing an older Bible Study program and doing the same thing.
BTW, Bing is a lot better than the competition in areas like logical organization and actually serving up actionable results...[:D]
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I freely admit that I did not read all of the 200-plus posts in this thread before posting this, but I did scan them and I didn't see my exact concern addressed. If it's in here, I apologize.
I purchased the Logos 5 "Starter" package early on. I chose it because it was the cheapest way to get the functionality of the new base software, even though it was bundled with books that I did not want or need. As in the list posted above, I scanned the "dots" on the Starter package, but I guess I didn't go all the way down the list. Part of the problem was that I had no reason to suspect that Logos 5 would be stripped of some of its functionality which is now packaged as databases, as best I can tell. I sent an email to Logos (suggest@logos.com) expressing my concerns and offering my suggestions. I received a form email reply which basically stated that someone would read my email but no one would reply.
My greatest complaint was that the much-touted timeline and other new functionality was not at all a part of the Logos 5 base program, but was now layered in the third level of "libraries." My suggestion–in it's shortest form–was that Logos at least consider making the timeline and other databases available as a separate purchase without having to buy 200 books that I don't need or want.
To be totally honest, it actually seems deceptive to me. I did not see anything saying that the timeline was tied to a particular level of upgrade. I only found out about it in the forums after I could not find it in my upgraded package. It was, apparently, not "bulleted" in the upgrade list, meaning that I could have known that I was not receiving it. However, I did not see it primarily because I had no reason to expect that it was not a basic function of Logos 5. With the library I currently own, it would cost me over $300 to get the timeline functionality. I am not at all interested in doing that.
I asked for and received a refund on my Starter package, which added nothing to the functionality of my existing Logos library. I am a Mac user and I started with Logos when they started making a version for Mac. I have enjoyed the functionality, but it seems clear now that Logos is switching it's marketing thrust to those with deep pockets, or those who have large expense accounts. There are several options now for the Mac for those like me who do not need 2,500 books.
Danny Truitt
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Dear Danny,
You write,
Daniel Truitt said:I purchased the Logos 5 "Starter" package early on. I chose it because it was the cheapest way to get the functionality of the new base software, even though it was bundled with books that I did not want or need. As in the list posted above, I scanned the "dots" on the Starter package, but I guess I didn't go all the way down the list. Part of the problem was that I had no reason to suspect that Logos 5 would be stripped of some of its functionality which is now packaged as databases, as best I can tell. I sent an email to Logos (suggest@logos.com) expressing my concerns and offering my suggestions. I received a form email reply which basically stated that someone would read my email but no one would reply.
As I understand it, you will not lose any functionality by crossgrading to a lower package. You will not, however, obtain all of the new functionality introduced with L5. As you rightly say, this new functionality is linked to newly developed datasets. In my view, some of the disappointment with Logos' strategy is linked to a lack of appreciation of the nature of the datasets. Mark Barnes' introductory video which provides an overview of the new features to L5 helps illustrate the degree and complexity of work involved in creating these datasets. The video is available here,
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/59381.aspx
You continue,
Daniel Truitt said:My greatest complaint was that the much-touted timeline and other new functionality was not at all a part of the Logos 5 base program, but was now layered in the third level of "libraries." My suggestion–in it's shortest form–was that Logos at least consider making the timeline and other databases available as a separate purchase without having to buy 200 books that I don't need or want.
I fully appreciate why you did not wish to read the 200 posts preceding your own [:D]. This concern has been raised previously and results from a misunderstanding. The good news is that Logos intend to do the very thing you suggest. Bob Pritchett (CEO) has announced that Logos will, in very near future, release a minimal crossgrade which will provide you with much of the functionality of L5 (i.e. datasets) at a substantially lower cost and the free L5 engine which will provide the basic software, but not the additional functionality.
Bob's announcement is available here,
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58259/414636.aspx#414636
Hopefully, one of these two options will better suit your needs.
Blessings in your decision [:D]
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Yes, I scrolled down and looked at all the dots. there were only the three mentioned. I understand and even like the idea of add-ons. To me it just seems that their comparison charts aren't working properly - the new functionalities of Logos 5 which I don't yet have should have dots beside them showing they would be new to me ... but they don't.
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Hugely confusing. I hope they're able to fix the bug soon. I'm going to wait until it is clear what I am actually getting before I make any purchase.
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I, too, am very disappointed to learn that Logos 5 requires an upgrade charge of $470.04. After purchasing the base system, Scholar's Library Gold in my case, and many additional books, I am not inclined to pay again for the new features/functions of the basic system. Upgrades to the base system should be free. I'd also add that the Mac version leaves a lot to be desired--it's not an intuitive user experience and I'm not close to mastering the software despite having the program for several years now.
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Lauren M. Mitchell said:
I, too, am very disappointed to learn that Logos 5 requires an upgrade charge of $470.04.
To get "all" of the new features etc costs a maximum of $160.
But please make sure that you are logged in to the website with your usual Logos 4 credentials. - you may discover that you will receive a (slight?) depending on previous Base set/collection etc decrease in that price. Some with "gi-normous" collections have received significant deductions to the price of that "minimum cross-grade" - while another user reported that he only would receive a deduction of $8.
Regards, SteveF
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The minimal cross grade is > $100.00
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Lauren M. Mitchell said:
Upgrades to the base system should be free.
Next year Logos will freely offer the Logos Bible Software 5 engine, which can use all Logos 4 features plus use all resources from Logos 4. Caveat: without a minimal crossgrade or base package purchase, the new Logos 5 features lack appropriate data for use. Thankful for Minimal Crossgrade addition to upgrade page => http://www.logos.com/upgrade
Personally choose to upgrade to Logos 5 Portfolio, which included a number of resources on my wish list. The delta increase from Diamond to Portfolio was less than 10 % of the combined regular price for the resources, which were in my wish list.
Lauren M. Mitchell said:I'd also add that the Mac version leaves a lot to be desired--it's not an intuitive user experience and I'm not close to mastering the software despite having the program for several years now.
Logos 4 and Logos 5 have a unique set of User Interface conventions that are a bit different than OS X and Windows: e.g. Documents.
Thankful for Logos 5 full screen on OS X 10.8.2 along with being faster than Logos 4 Mac. Logos 5.0a SR-1 has the fewest feature parity issues yet between Windows and OS X along with improving User Interface consistency, which is appreciated when switching platforms.
Wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Getting_Started_with_Logos that has a number of Tips for Learning Logos => http://wiki.logos.com/Getting_Started_with_Logos#Learning_Logos Personally planning to participate in a Camp Logos in April 2013, which includes an expectation of learning more about using Logos effectively.
Thankful for many friendly forum discussions about Logos Bible Software: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn: e.g. Logos Hebrew Morphology has 35 stem variations. Thankful for resource => http://www.logos.com/product/3438/learning-biblical-hebrew-a-new-approach-using-discourse-analysis that is included in several packages: Verbum Capstone, Logos 5 Diamond, and Logos 5 Portfolio.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Linda said:
The minimal cross grade is > $100.00
Logos 5 Core Datasets are $ 79.95 => http://www.logos.com/product/28494/logos-5-core-datasets
Logos 5 Minimal Crossgrade is $ 159.95 (or less) => http://www.logos.com/product/28376/logos-5-minimal-crossgrade
The Minimal Crossgrade includes the new Logos 5 Core Datasets plus 30 more resources so can use all the new features in Logos 5.
A friend upgraded from Logos 4 Platinum to Logos 5 Silver, then purchased Minimal Crossgrade for under $ 7.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Thank you for the information, Steve. To all respondents: thank you all for the feedback. I was not aware of several alternative packages, e.g., "Minimum Crossgrade," "Core Datasets" and the free version coming next year. And thanks for the Mac tips.
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My 4 collection is now the Spurgeon (portfolio). My 5 is the Darby (silver) still paying for the spurgeon.
my only frustration is I upgraded days before 5 came out. I emailed my rep and he doesn't return my emails. He either quit or has a level of shame. I am a seminary student and will not complain about the price because of Logos I have spent 0 hours in the library.
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I have the same thing with a rep that called me. I was originally contacted but couldn't answer the phone, he called back later and I scheduled time to talk since I couldn't talk then either. Finally, we were able to discuss the matter and he expressed that he wanted to make an offer on some items I purchased and rolling them all up in an upgrade to Logos 5 package to express their apology in the process.
In telling him I would think about it and give him a call back either way, my phone call back was unanswered. I left a voice mail and haven't heard from Logos since.
We'll see...
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KS4J,
I am in a similar situation as the friend you referenced. Logos 5 Silver would work perfectly for me, but doesn't come with one of the datasets; I am now considering Logos 5 Gold. Ironically, it is the dataset I am most looking forward to using.
Let me see if I have this correct. I can purchase Logos 5 Silver (upgrading from Logos 4: Leaders Library). After the purchase I can go a purchase the Minimal Crossgrade and only be charged for the missing dataset. Is that right?
Thanks.
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Daniel Esherick said:
Let me see if I have this correct. I can purchase Logos 5 Silver (upgrading from Logos 4: Leaders Library). After the purchase I can go a purchase the Minimal Crossgrade and only be charged for the missing dataset. Is that right?
Yes, friend upgraded from Logos 4 to Logos 5 Silver, followed by purchasing Minimal Crossgrade for $ 6.14 (dynamic upgrade price for Bible Sense Lexicon).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Thanks, Mike, for your posting. This has been SO confusing for me as well. I am a Precept leader, & I did not expect to have to pay another to-me-huge fee. I don't need more Greek/Hebrew. I need some issues w/Logos 4 fixed! I thot I'd just stay w/Scholars as long as I studied & add a new title here or there. What other needs might I or any other Precept leader have? My only possible "out" for Logos is that it has to make money. When will it ever stop? My confidence in them has gone down as well. After much thot & discussion w/others who are in the know, I'm going w/the Minimal Crossgrade, but it's still another $160 which we are told will double in January! We'd best hurry up! How can we recommend this to others--and yet we've come to depend on it! Angelia in Georgia
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Angelia .. you could simply wait until early 2013 and download the Logos5 software for free?
I can't imagine why you'd want the crossgrade, if the original languages aren't a big deal. I enjoy the original languages, but elsewise it'd be a waste.
One thing you always have to remember about Logos, is they don't tell you what you want to know; only what they wish you to know. Kind of like when you shop for a used car.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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If the post from DMB in reply to Angelia is accurate and represents the marketing philosophy of Logos, I will probably remove Logos 5 from my system. I find it unacceptable to support such a philosophy.
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Bob B said:
If the post from DMB in reply to Angelia is accurate and represents the marketing philosophy of Logos, I will probably remove Logos 5 from my system. I find it unacceptable to support such a philosophy.
Not sure what you're responding to. But DMB does not speak for Logos. If you have a specific question about Logos software, or Logos corporation, ask.
EDIT: Forgot to say, I don't speak for Logos either. I'm just a user named a forum MVP by Logos. I'm here to help fellow users use the software.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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DMB said:
Angelia .. you could simply wait until early 2013 and download the Logos5 software for free?
I can't imagine why you'd want the crossgrade, if the original languages aren't a big deal. I enjoy the original languages, but elsewise it'd be a waste.
One thing you always have to remember about Logos, is they don't tell you what you want to know; only what they wish you to know. Kind of like when you shop for a used car.
Denise, I truly wish for a Blessed and Happy New Year for you and your loved ones!
I am saddened by this post of yours! Certainly uncalled for. What are you trying to say to Angelia that is going to be helpful for her???!!!! And, frankly, I definitely believe your post is untrue. For me my relationship with Logos is certainly not that I'm patronising a used car dealership or used car tactics. I'm truly sorry that your relationship with Logos has degenerated to this point!
I've been a Logos Customer since around 1993, and I'm still thrilled with Logos Bible Software. As you know, I am also a Logos3.0g fan and had it running again today. Please, Denise.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Bob B said:
If the post from DMB in reply to Angelia is accurate and represents the marketing philosophy of Logos, I will probably remove Logos 5 from my system. I find it unacceptable to support such a philosophy.
Peace, Bob! Welcome to the Logos Forums! I notice this is your fourth post!
The Logos Forums consist of volunteers from around the world who try to help and encourage and support one another 24 hours a day. As I going into another year in a few hours here in Eastern Canada as an older retired Lutheran Pastor I realise that the world still has some improving to do, eh???
Please feel comfortable posting and asking questions and making comments! I'm glad you made your remark.
Unfortunately this last January I had to respond to some unpleasantry also. There is trouble and evil in the world! I rejoice that God loved (and loves!) us while we were (and are!) sinners and sent Jesus to suffer and die for the sins of the world. As we enter the New Year, we can love and forgive and do better.
Even if we are abused for it ... *smile* This is what I wrote in January ...
Randall Cue:MJ you have come closest to the spirit of my original post, and I thank you for that. I am always amazed at how quickly we can change the direction of a "civilized" discussion. I did not want this to drift into a theological debate and stated such in the original post. I regret asking this question as it is obvious that so many that frequent the forum are un able or unwilling to stick to the subject of a post within the guidelines of the forum.A Happy and Healthy New Year and Be at Peace, Randy!
Peace in Jesus! Soli Deo Gloria indeed!
*smile* Peace of Heart and Peace of Mind!
Randy, please keep on posting and please do regret this one. It was a very good original post and was a good stimulation for us all until it got “bushwhacked.”
Somewhere I seem to have heard this “Parable of Life” and have tried to reconstruct it for you.
There is the story of these two guys, friends from the neighbourhood they lived in, who walked to work together on the same downtown street every day.
And, every day they encountered a man from their neighbourhood walking the opposite way on his way to work. One of the guys, every day, greeted the neighbourhood gentleman with a smile and a very cheery, ”Good Morning, Neighbour!”
And every day the response was a cold and hostile “harrumph”! This went on – day after day – week after week – month after month.
Finally, one of the friends said to his friend, “I can’t understand why you greet him so cheerily every day when he’s such a mean-spirited man who huffs and puffs at the very sight of you. Tell me why, please.”
His friend said, “Well, I’m not going to let him decide how I live!”
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Going to have to disagree here, Milford.
I watched this whole train wreck of a rollout for Logos5. Day after day for a month now folks keep assuming they're going to have to PAY to keep their software up to date, or to maintain their package levels. Many have been absolutely angry. Indeed lengthy threads have tried to overcome the confusion.
Now you can't tell me that Logos could not have been clear from day 1. Or day 2. Or day 3. Or day 4. Maybe day 10? How about day 21? Or possibley 29? Need I continue? There's no way on God's green earth (red here in Sedona) that this is justifiable to fellow believers. And no we're not in church.
Other Logos users like to say Logos is a business; so therefore it's ok not to properly inform their customers. Fine. But a user car business is the closest match I can see. How else do you explain not being up front with your own customers? And believers, for goodness sakes?
Now I've no doubt Logos has some great deals. We both have benefitted mightily. But there's many who don't possess wealth nor need.
Nope. This whole situation was 'over the top' as far as I'm concerned.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I don't understand what would have been so difficult with having a free update to Logos 5, just like any other update, then keep all collections the same, and let people buy these super special datasets that everyone keeps harping on as people see fit.
The only reason I think it was not done this way is for increased financial gain.
Hopefully there was enough of a backlash from people talking with their pocket book instead of their mouth that there might not be a next time.
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DMB said:
Going to have to disagree here, Milford.
I watched this whole train wreck of a rollout for Logos5. Day after day for a month now folks keep assuming they're going to have to PAY to keep their software up to date, or to maintain their package levels. Many have been absolutely angry. Indeed lengthy threads have tried to overcome the confusion.
OK, Denise! It has been a train wreck. However, I've heard Logos speak clearly. But, it's true and it's sad, others somehow have not heard Logos speak, and that is most unfortunate! Kindest personal greetings, Denise. We definitely have to disagree here!
Heading out the the Kitchen now. Walking away from my study and my computer. My wife and I have three live (pound and a quarter to pound and a half) Canadian Maritime Lobsters ready to go into the boiling pot to help us celebrate one more New Year's Eve together! We met in 1956! *smile* Married since 1961! And it always gets better, eh??? Like our Love From and To God! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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DMB said:
so therefore it's ok not to properly inform their customers.
In this whole muddle, I've never been able to figure out why so many misread Logos' statements and preferred to believe the worst rather than accepting the corrections to their misunderstandings - over and over in the same thread.
DMB said:This whole situation was 'over the top' as far as I'm concerned.
Yes, but I probably don't mean it in the sense you do. I found it disheartening that so many people seem so afraid of being taken advantage of that they prefer to believe they are being victimized rather than believing it is a simple case of miscommunication. (Yes, my sister fits into this category as does to a lesser extent my mother.)
“All shall be well, and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well.”May all of us experience Christian love, joy, peace and equanimity through out this coming year.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Miscommunication sounds nice. Remember when they said they were 'thinking' about a crossgrade? Or when they said they 'might' do a free upgrade.
I'll stick with your sister and maybe your mother.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Remember when they said they were 'thinking' about a crossgrade? Or when they said they 'might' do a free upgrade.
No, I don't. What I remember is http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58259/414636.aspx#414636
Or as an attempt to explain the ordering of the release http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58026/413892.aspx#413892
Note the date on these - the day after the initial release if I recall correctly.
DMB said:Miscommunication sounds nice.
To me it sounds scarey - accurate communication is fundamental to society and to our beliefs.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Yes, those messages followed Phil swinging out there in the wind. I could understand the dance, if this hasn't become SOP at Bellingham.
But please make no mistake ... you personally are responsible for a LOT of happy customers. I don't know exactly 'who' did so much for expanding support for Catholics, but I hope you're celebrating a well deserved New Year! I know you have even more to accomplish.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
Going to have to disagree here, Milford.
I watched this whole train wreck of a rollout for Logos5. Day after day for a month now folks keep assuming they're going to have to PAY to keep their software up to date, or to maintain their package levels. Many have been absolutely angry. Indeed lengthy threads have tried to overcome the confusion.
Now you can't tell me that Logos could not have been clear from day 1. Or day 2. Or day 3. Or day 4. Maybe day 10? How about day 21? Or possibley 29? Need I continue? There's no way on God's green earth (red here in Sedona) that this is justifiable to fellow believers. And no we're not in church.
Other Logos users like to say Logos is a business; so therefore it's ok not to properly inform their customers. Fine. But a user car business is the closest match I can see. How else do you explain not being up front with your own customers? And believers, for goodness sakes?
Now I've no doubt Logos has some great deals. We both have benefitted mightily. But there's many who don't possess wealth nor need.
Nope. This whole situation was 'over the top' as far as I'm concerned.
At some point I have quit caring whether Logos is a business or a ministry. I have quit caring if they effectively communicate or not with its customers. I have quit becoming concerned about what deals I need to find to expand my already mighty collection of useless books. I am not interested in the "free" update with limited usefulness without the databases. I don't want a weekend retreat for learning how to use their "improved" interface and databases. Really the only thing I desire from Logos at this point is the next sale on the minimum upgrade that will becoming in a year or two that will reduce my cost of keeping this beast on my hard-drive to a minimum...just like I was offered on Logos 4.
Well I should act like a Christian and have some grace for Logos staff. If this is a business designed primarily to promote a profit for the company and those who own then all of this god talk is a moot point imo. At some point this whole debate will be settled by market forces instead of the moral hand wringing of one or another customer to my mind. What's the bottom line price..period.
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Rene Atchley said:
Now you can't tell me that Logos could not have been clear from day 1. Or day 2. Or day 3. Or day 4. Maybe day 10? How about day 21? Or possibley 29? Need I continue?
Thankful for a blog article on 30 Nov 2012 with lots of Logos 5 information => http://blog.logos.com/2012/11/5-ways-to-move-to-logos-5/ Blog article in early November 2012 would have been tremendously appreciated.
Looking at blog article about Christmas 2012 deals ending on 2 Jan 2013 => http://blog.logos.com/2012/12/take-advantage-of-logos-christmas-deals-until-january-2-2 noted minimal crossgrades were not mentioned, but 50 % special discount for Book Bundle goes away, which will double the Book Bundle prices. At the moment, do not know about Christmas 2013 promotions.
For the 12 Days of Logos, seems prudent to wait for 12 days of sale items to appear. Past couple years have had more sale items appear after the 12th Day.
March Madness has typically been followed by a few days to purchase any sale item.
For Logos 5 upgrade, upgrading in early November was the best deal, which later included some credit from Logos for a number of customers who had upgraded.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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