Possible BUG: Clause Search (and searching the forums)

On the Logos 5 new features web page there is an illustration of the new Clause Search. Unfortunately it doesn't work as shown.

The illustration shows the search as 'subject:God verb:to love' but this returns only two hits and does not include any from the illustration. To get these results the search has to be 'subject:God the Father verb:to love'

Unfortunate illustration on the web page aside, I would suggest the results of these searches are not what would be expected. I would have expected 'subject:God' to return many more hits than 'subject:God the Father' but to include all of these hits. In other words, the results of 'subject:God the Father' would be a subset of 'subject:God' (At present they appear to be two unrelated searches.) Some clarification from a Logos person would be appreciated.

Let me also mention that in searching the forums before posting this I notice that the forum search page does not (yet) include Logos 5 in the dropdown of forum titles. (Indeed the list does not really correspond to the forums that are presently available, with some missing and other listed that no longer exist.)

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Comments

MJ. Smith

It would be best to edit your post to place BUG at the front of your title. It will be much easier for the individual responding to bugs to find your note. I haven't had time to verify the problem but they were tweaking the database behind the feature up to the last minute.

M G Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415173#Comment_415173

Thanks MJ, have done so.

spitzerpl

Let me also mention that in searching the forums before posting this I notice that the forum search page does not (yet) include Logos 5 in the dropdown of forum titles. (Indeed the list does not really correspond to the forums that are presently available, with some missing and other listed that no longer exist.)

I have not found the search function of the Logos website to be very useful. When I am searching the forum I always go to Google and do a search like "[search term] site:http://community.logos.com/". If I remember correctly some Logos employees encouraged the same thing a long time ago. That being said, I agree that the drop down list should still be up-to-date.

Dave Hooton

The illustration shows the search as 'subject:God verb:to love' but this returns only two hits and does not include any from the illustration. To get these results the search has to be 'subject:God the Father verb:to love'

I would expect these to be the same person and not have the two names.

There is an analogy with "sons of God" and "The sons of God", except that one is a person and the other is not. Perhaps the reason for getting zero results is that the latter is the OT concept. Even so "sons of God" does not return all the results I would expect e.g. it omits Gal 3:26, Ro 8:14, 19.The result at Matt 5:45 is "sons of your Father", which is why I don't see the distinction between 'God' and 'God the Father'.

EDIT: using person:sons of God.

M G Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415243#Comment_415243

Dave, what are you using as your search string?

When I try 'subject:Sons of God' or 'subject:The Sons of God' (both of which are suggested on the menu) I get nothing. However, 'person:Sons of God' gets 3 and a bit hits (two hits are credited to Luke 20:36).

I think it is a tagging problem that needs some attention. I have just come across a similar (tagging) issue with the speaker label in scripture texts. In 1 Samuel 23:1 the speaker is identified as 'Philistines ...' where clearly it is the Philistines who are being referred to. Should such mistakes be reported as typos?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415256#Comment_415256

Sorry, I was using person: to get results.

M G Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415268#Comment_415268

bump

Brisa Davis

I would have expected 'subject:God' to return many more hits than 'subject:God the Father' but to include all of these hits. In other words, the results of 'subject:God the Father' would be a subset of 'subject:God' (At present they appear to be two unrelated searches.)

I agree with you, that "subject:God the Father" seems like it should be a subset of "subject:God." I will report this to Development.

I have just come across a similar (tagging) issue with the speaker label in scripture texts. In 1 Samuel 23:1 the speaker is identified as 'Philistines ...' where clearly it is the Philistines who are being referred to. Should such mistakes be reported as typos?

I have passed this on to the correct department.

Brisa Davis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415243#Comment_415243

Even so "sons of God" does not return all the results I would expect e.g. it omits Gal 3:26, Ro 8:14, 19.

I am able to reproduce this issue, and will report it to Development.

Sean Boisen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/419340#Comment_419340

I would have expected 'subject:God' to return many more hits than 'subject:God the Father' but to include all of these hits. In other words, the results of 'subject:God the Father' would be a subset of 'subject:God' (At present they appear to be two unrelated searches.)

I agree with you, that "subject:God the Father" seems like it should be a subset of "subject:God." I will report this to Development.

...

Because of the large number of mentions of God, we chose to separate out those that are specifically God the Father from those that are more generically "God". We don't currently have a mechanism to express that a search for one should include all the others. In a future update we expect to add Boolean operators, so you will be able to search for subject:God OR subject:God the Father.

Sean Boisen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415256#Comment_415256

...

Should such mistakes be reported as typos?

Eventually we'll have an option on the panel to report problems like this. Until then, the best thing to do for data errors like this is email them to data@logos.com.

M G Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420154#Comment_420154

Because of the large number of mentions of God, we chose to separate out those that are specifically God the Father from those that are more generically "God".

Sean, thank you for your response. I can understand the desire to offer a more refined search capablilty, however, I would express three concerns:

1. It is not clear to me that several of the results from 'subject:God the Father verb:to love' clearly belong to 'God the Father' as distinct from 'God'. Certainly some results seem specific: Jn 3.16, 3.35, 5.20, for example. But what about: Rom 8.37, 9.13, for example? Given that God has revealed himself as three-in-one it may not always be a helpful (nor a proper?) exercise to identify an action as belonging to one person of the godhead to the effective exclusion of the others.

2. Applying these searches to the Old Testament give no results. Indeed, limiting the search to 'verb:to love' gives no results. Is tagging incomplete? Or what? Deuteronomy alone should give many results.

3. I would still expect 'subject:God' to generate more results than 'subject:God the Father' however that is not what presently happens. In the New Testament, 'God' gives 402 results compared to 862 for 'God the Father'. In the Old Testament, 'God' gives 10,991 results but 'God the Father' gives none. These results again raise the question of the basis on which distinguishing between 'God' and 'God the Father' has been made. (Also, 'God the Son' and 'God the Spirit' are not options, although 'Jesus' and 'Holy Spirit' are.)

Clause search has the potential to be a wonderfully powerful addition to Logos 5's search capabilities. However, understanding the basis on which tagging has been done would seem to be necessary to adequately refine searches.

M G Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420339#Comment_420339

...

Should such mistakes be reported as typos?

Eventually we'll have an option on the panel to report problems like this. Until then, the best thing to do for data errors like this is email them to data@logos.com.

Thank you. Noted.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420437#Comment_420437

1. It is not clear to me that several of the results from 'subject:God the Father verb:to love' clearly belong to 'God the Father' as distinct from 'God'.

I'm so glad to see someone else express this concern.

Jonathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/421091#Comment_421091

1. It is not clear to me that several of the results from 'subject:God the Father verb:to love' clearly belong to 'God the Father' as distinct from 'God'.

I'm so glad to see someone else express this concern.

I believe in other resources, such as the Lexham Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament, Logos tagged places where interpretive issues were in play with multiple tags (i.e. subjective and objective genitives). Would it be possible to apply this principle here?

M G Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/421099#Comment_421099

I still hope for some response to the concerns I have raised above but have also been further investigating the use of Clause Search, with an interesting discovery!

Continuing to use the search illustrated on the L5 new features page (still not corrected) I have discovered there is a significant difference in search protocol between NT and OT. I noted above that doing a clause search for 'verb:to love' gives no results in the OT. However, changing the search to 'verb:love' gives 149 hits. But this search does not work in the NT, there it has to be 'verb:to love'.

So there is a difference in searching in NT and OT, and the difference is less than intuitive. To be fair, when starting a clause search in one testament or the other, it seems that you are properly prompted in the suggestions that appear. However, we would surely expect such a simple and straightforward search to be transferable from on testament to the other testament without any modification.

That prompting lead to a second discovery. In the OT, when starting a search for 'verb:love' one of the suggestions is the intriguing 'verb:love + --' which gives 14 results, none of which show up in the earlier search for 'verb:love'. My Hebrew is not such that I can pick up the distinction that is being made. Perhaps others can offer suggestions.

Conclusion: some answers but more questions!