Specific clause search question

I'm trying out the clause search feature, using a passage from this morning's message. I'm searching Hebrews in the Lexham Greek-English Interlinear resource. The search text is "object:Jesus". Based on the descriptions of the feature, I'm expecting that the data has been tagged to recognize when pronouns and the like refer to Jesus and not just the word Jesus itself.

Given that, I thought that Heb 12:3 would be one of the resulting verses, "Consider him who endured from sinners ..." (ESV). However, it is not among the results. The Greek word translated "him" is the article τὸν (acc masc sg). Is that the reason this verse isn't in the results? If so, does that mean no substantive adjectives would be found in similar searches (subject or object)?

Thanks,

Donnie

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Jack Caviness

Donnie

Can you still edit your post? You might want to consider changing the title of this thread to something like "BUG: Clause search defective in General Epistles"

I tried your search in the General Epistles (Hebrews-Jude) and received zero results.

I'm expecting that the data has been tagged to recognize when pronouns and the like refer to Jesus and not just the word Jesus itself.

That should be true, but considering the vastness of this project, expect some errors in the beginning.

UPDATE: Seems to work correctly in Revelation

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417526#Comment_417526

Can you still edit your post? You might want to consider changing the title of this thread to something like "BUG: Clause search defective in General Epistles"

I tried your search in the General Epistles (Hebrews-Jude) and received zero results.

I wasn't sure it was a bug when I created the thread, and I'm still not. Note that I did get results elsewhere in Hebrews, just not that specific one that I expected.

Would still like a definitive answer from Logos...

Donnie

Philana Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417623#Comment_417623

Donnie you want to use the search string person:Jesus

Object would search from when Jesus is the object of something like a verb.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417733#Comment_417733

Object would search from when Jesus is the object of something like a verb.

That's exactly what I wanted to search for, Jesus as the object of verbs. Heb 12:3 is "Consider him...", where "him" is a reference to Jesus.

I'm trying to understand why it does not show up in the results of a clause search for "object:jesus".

Donnie

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417739#Comment_417739

Object would search from when Jesus is the object of something like a verb.

That's exactly what I wanted to search for, Jesus as the object of verbs. Heb 12:3 is "Consider him...", where "him" is a reference to Jesus.

I'm trying to understand why it does not show up in the results of a clause search for "object:jesus".

Donnie

I wonder if it is because HIM is supplied by the VERB and the VERBS are not yet tagged in the Sense Database.

Note: I have not yet dug deeply into clause search, I'm shooting from the hip.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417748#Comment_417748

I wonder if it is because HIM is supplied by the VERB

I don't think it is supplied by the verb. As my original post pointed out, the "him" is being translated from the masc acc sg article ("ton"), a substantive article in this case. Unless I'm misunderstanding you...

Donnie

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417739#Comment_417739

I'm trying to understand why it does not show up in the results of a clause search for "object:jesus".

Subject:Jesus brings up the find here.

In this clause "Him who has endured..." Jesus is the subject of the verb "endured" whereas the entire clause "him who has endured..." is the object of the verb consider.

I think a tagging needs to be made here that the clause is a referent to Jesus.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417754#Comment_417754

Unless I'm misunderstanding you...

No. I'm shy of coffee this morning. You are correct.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417756#Comment_417756

Subject:Jesus brings up the find here.

I can't try this right now, but I will. From your comments, that doesn't seem right to me.

Would like an official Logos comment on the issue, with clarification if they believe it's working as designed.

Thanks for the reply,

Donnie

Philana Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417754#Comment_417754

I wonder if it is because HIM is supplied by the VERB

I don't think it is supplied by the verb. As my original post pointed out, the "him" is being translated from the masc acc sg article ("ton"), a substantive article in this case. Unless I'm misunderstanding you...

Donnie

I think the him's that are searched are pronouns actually in the Greek text, I'm not sure if it will pick up a article.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417763#Comment_417763

that doesn't seem right to me.

No something is amiss. probably with my analysis as well as the tagging. I think there is a tagging error here.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417764#Comment_417764

I think the him's that are searched are pronouns actually in the Greek text, I'm not sure if it will pick up a article.

That's what I hypothesized in my original post. I'd like Logos to confirm if that is in fact the issue.

Donnie

Peter Venable

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417785#Comment_417785

I looked under the hood and in this case the article is not tagged.

I'll look into it, but this error probably belongs to the syntactic analysis of the tagging rather than the tagging itself.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417953#Comment_417953

I looked under the hood and in this case the article is not tagged.

Thanks for the reply, Peter. A couple of follow-ups:

1) Do regular customers have the ability to look under the hood ourselves so we can post these as "please enhance tagging" vs. "is this a bug or a tagging problem"?

2) Is it safe to assume that as these kinds of issues are discovered (and assuming that the Logos experts agree that the proposed tagging is correct) that Logos will continue to enhance its tagging and we'll see the benefits with future updates to the data sets?

Thanks again,

Donnie

Peter Venable

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417977#Comment_417977

1) Do regular customers have the ability to look under the hood ourselves so we can post these as "please enhance tagging" vs. "is this a bug or a tagging problem"?

2) Is it safe to assume that as these kinds of issues are discovered (and assuming that the Logos experts agree that the proposed tagging is correct) that Logos will continue to enhance its tagging and we'll see the benefits with future updates to the data sets?

1) You can see quite a bit in two ways. You can use the Analysis view of clause search results. And in the LHB or SBLGreek texts, or any Bible with a reverse interlinear, you can see how individual words are tagged using the Information view. For example, in Heb 12:3 pointing to τὸν yields nothing but pointing to ὑπομεμενηκότα shows "ὑπομεμενηκότα → Jesus — son of God, savior of the world" in the Information panel.

2) Yes!

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/417953#Comment_417953

I looked under the hood and in this case the article is not tagged.

The implied subject of the verb in the following relative clause is correctly tagged.

Did not see your second post prior to sending this

Dr. Steven E. Runge (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/418038#Comment_418038

I'm trying to understand
why it does not show up in the results of a clause search for
"object:jesus".

Subject:Jesus brings up the find here.

In this clause "Him who has endured..." Jesus is
the subject of the verb "endured" whereas the entire clause "him
who has endured..." is the object of the verb consider.

I think a tagging needs to be made here that the clause is a
referent to Jesus.

Okay, as the annotator of the NT referent data, it looks
like an oversight on my part. Here how the ESV RI aligns with the Greek. On
this alignment, τον needs its own annotation.

Back in the day when I tagged the data, SBLGNT didn't exist
yet, so the ESV was aligned to the NA27. This would be my only excuse, but here
is how the data was annotated. It looks like I was expecting the label on the
participle to be magically propagated by Dr. Venable onto the article:

I have added an identifier for Jesus on the article, and
Peter should be able to add the data to the next release. I was labeling the
Greek without know exactly how it would transfer to English, there was no
implementation or user interface of any kind back then. Here is the corrected
version that should reflect the RI alignment.

Thanks for the feedback, I expect there will be more changes
like this needed. I'll do some syntax searches to see if there are other comparable instances that we can correct as well.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/418111#Comment_418111

Okay, as the annotator of the NT referent data, it looks
like an oversight on my part.

That's the kind of explanation I like!!! Thanks so much, Steve, for the detailed information and the insight into the behind-the-scenes magic.

I'm wondering if there ought to be a dedicated means to communicate findings such as these (better than forum threads or typos or general "support@logos.com" emails).

Donnie

Steve Runge

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/418264#Comment_418264

These data sets will continue to develop iteratively, with need for tweaks here and there like what you identified. Your observation helped identify a number of similar instances that we can now correct, making the data more complete. I'll see if we can get a dedicated email address for potential bugs.

Chris Robbers

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/418264#Comment_418264

I'm wondering if there ought to be a dedicated means to communicate findings such as these (better than forum threads or typos or general "support@logos.com" emails).

Donnie

We are discussing a more streamlined way to do this within the app internally. We agree that the easier we make this for you, the more you will report it and the better the data can be refined. Thanks for the feedback and stay tuned.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/418292#Comment_418292

We are discussing a more streamlined way to do this within the app internally. We agree that the easier we make this for you, the more you will report it and the better the data can be refined. Thanks for the feedback and stay tuned.

Post #1 from a Logos employee on a thread I started. Cool!

Donnie