Deceitful marketing
I called Logos and asked to upgrade from 4 to their starter package and individually purchase the data sets which state that they are sold separately. It would have cost me no more than $130. Of course they said no because it is not possible. Maybe they should consider getting rid of the price and phrase that says "sold separately." Someone needs to be held accountable for this poor roll out!
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I do not doubt your claim but I have not seen where logos states the data sets were sold separately. Could you point me to the statement? Also, how did you come up with your $130 total?
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You might want to read the president's information about what is now offered and what will be offered. The web site lists the individual features as available separately, which apparently was a mistake. It seems that it has not been corrected.
Here is the link to Bob Pritchett's discussion: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58259.aspx
As you'll read, the basic L5 engine will be available for free someday and the data sets and features needed to enjoy the entire L5 experience will also be available in a minimum crossgrade at some point.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Deceitful is a hard word.
On the other hand, it took someone to program it, etc. It wasn't accidental.
I myself don't understand why there's such a problem at Logos in marketing.
EDIT (what he's talking about):
."If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Halo Hound said:
I do not doubt your claim but I have not seen where logos states the data sets were sold separately. Could you point me to the statement? Also, how did you come up with your $130 total?
Just mouse hover an individual line on the upgrade page. I think it was stated in the forums that it was a mistake, but dont know why it hasnt been taken down yet.
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Mistaken or erroneous marketing may be better titles for this thread. Do you have any information that indicates deceitful motives?
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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David ... I'm don't like the word 'deceitful'. But what other word is there?
Web coders don't just make things up. Someone gave them the text/spreadsheets and the made-up numbers.
I just don't understand.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thanks for pointing me to the statement. To advertise something for sale that is not for sale is an error that needs to be corrected without delay.Joshua Coady said:Halo Hound said:I do not doubt your claim but I have not seen where logos states the data sets were sold separately. Could you point me to the statement? Also, how did you come up with your $130 total?
Just mouse hover an individual line on the upgrade page. I think it was stated in the forums that it was a mistake, but dont know why it hasnt been taken down yet.
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DMB said:
David ... I'm don't like the word 'deceitful'. But what other word is there?
I already suggested "mistaken" and "erroneous". I could add "misleading" or "baffling"
I agree that "sold separately" should not appear in the box. I suspect that the "value" of the data set was determined for some of the internal spreadsheets that determine dynamic pricing but was never intended for public view.
i can imagine a web designer being handed a spreadsheet with titles, description, cover art, and other internal information (e.g. Target release date, or resource status) and the designer accidentally including in the website cells that were not intended for public view. It is a matter of miscommunication, not deceit.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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I currently have the Bible study package in 4. My upgrade for the starter was about 66 bucks. I added the data sets that I thought could be purchased seperately to the upgrade price.
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Maybe deceitful is a harsh word, but in my book they should honor it, or take it down. I was told that it was there to show the value of the data set. I mentioned that I was comfortable with my current library and all I want is the know system and data set, but I have to pay around $900 just for the data sets and the books I will never use. They did say that something was in the works and to wait.
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They did say that something was in the works and to wait.
Take the time to read the thread I pointed to you from Bob Pritchett.
For about $100 you will probably get all or most of what you want, but you will have to wait until Logos makes it available.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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David Thomas said:DMB said:
David ... I'm don't like the word 'deceitful'. But what other word is there?
I already suggested "mistaken" and "erroneous". I could add "misleading" or "baffling"
I agree that "sold separately" should not appear in the box. I suspect that the "value" of the data set was determined for some of the internal spreadsheets that determine dynamic pricing but was never intended for public view.
i can imagine a web designer being handed a spreadsheet with titles, description, cover art, and other internal information (e.g. Target release date, or resource status) and the designer accidentally including in the website cells that were not intended for public view. It is a matter of miscommunication, not deceit.
I agree that "deceit" probably does not accurately describe how the error came to be but to continue to allow the error to persist once it has become known does not help diffuse the confusion.
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I currently have the Bible study package in 4. My upgrade for the starter was about 66 bucks. I added the data sets that I thought could be purchased seperately to the upgrade price. Unfortunately the sales rep said that there is actually no way to unlink them and sell them Individually.
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Thanks
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Halo Hound said:
I agree that "deceit" probably does not accurately describe how the error came to be but to continue to allow the error to persist once it has become known does not help diffuse the confusion.
Agreed! I don't want to be accused of "drinking the kool-aid" or being a "fan boy", I would just prefer that some of the rhetoric be toned down in these forums.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Well, at some point someone's going to have to come clean and admit they work at Logos. And that the words they use have no meaning.
I'm only surprised a pastor was the stand-up guy. That's a complement.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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There is a lot that goes into a website behind the scenes, and lots of reasons why multiple-thousand page programmed sites can't be changed quickly, especially when it comes to things that are generatEd by scripts and code, not just plain text.... Updating a complex coded page is not equivalent to fixing a typo on a blog post for example.
All that to say, we are working around the clock to fix this and many other issues. I assure you the sold separately issue that you pointed out is not intentional and certainly not deceitful. Giving people the impression that those items are sold separately is the last thing we would want to do. It will be fixed as soon as it can be.0 -
Just to add my 2 cents... I am half through my purchase of the over $600 set (and that at a discount). Imagine my huge disappointment to find out that I could have bought a new package for the same price and not have to start all over again. I get the $100 thing. It is just really disappointing.
Remaining in Him (1 John 2:28), Robert
Mac Book Pro, Windows 7 Professional, iPhone 4S, iPad 1
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No argument here! I have seen far too much slander in the name of Jesus and justice in the forums lately. Personally I do not believe Pastor Beverly had this intent in the use of the word "deceit" but because of some others in the forum who have made it there mission to make sure everyone else knows their negative opinion of logos an atmosphere of us vs them has started to develop which makes it hard to distinguish legit disagreement. I can only ask that The Lord give me eyes to distinguish slander from constructive criticism.0
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Problematic is the nicest possible word that comes to mind with the way this roll-out is happening.
I purchased tools that were available before in Logos 3, that were not avaialble in Logos 4, and I have to pay $300 MINIMUM to get them back in Logos 5.
I had created and edited extensive timelines, for instance. I cannot get these timelines back unless I pay a LOT of money.
Logos is NOT looking good with their "marketing" decisions. They said they were not going to Charge for the platform, yet I have to pay to get my timelines back. I purchased Logos 4 on their word that TimeLines would be added later.
Well, I wasted that $100 upgrade. Now I have to do it again. >:(
NOT A HAPPY CUSTOMER.
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Dan Pritchett said:
There is a lot that goes into a website behind the scenes, and lots of reasons why multiple-thousand page programmed sites can't be changed quickly, especially when it comes to things that are generatEd by scripts and code, not just plain text.... Updating a complex coded page is not equivalent to fixing a typo on a blog post for example.
All that to say, we are working around the clock to fix this and many other issues. I assure you the sold separately issue that you pointed out is not intentional and certainly not deceitful. Giving people the impression that those items are sold separately is the last thing we would want to do. It will be fixed as soon as it can be.Thank you for the update and explanation. I know you guys are busy with many different things. Thanks for working hard on all these issues.
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I called Logos and asked to upgrade from 4 to their starter package and individually purchase the data sets which state that they are sold separately. It would have cost me no more than $130. Of course they said no because it is not possible. Maybe they should consider getting rid of the price and phrase that says "sold separately." Someone needs to be held accountable for this poor roll out!
I apologize for this. Let me assure you that there was no intent to deceive anyone. Though most of the contents are sold separately, some are not. The wording was poorly chosen. It's been a known issue for a couple weeks, but we've had to prioritize and deal with the most crucial issues first. This is high on our list and should be addressed very soon.
With the server issues we've been having, we've unfortunately not been able to make many updates to the website. We're very sorry for this and other issues and are working as quickly as possible to address them. We're also assessing how we can learn from this launch and improve for future launches.
Again, I'm sorry for this unintentionally misleading wording.
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Derek said:
Problematic is the nicest possible word that comes to mind with the way this roll-out is happening.
I purchased tools that were available before in Logos 3, that were not avaialble in Logos 4, and I have to pay $300 MINIMUM to get them back in Logos 5.
I had created and edited extensive timelines, for instance. I cannot get these timelines back unless I pay a LOT of money.
Logos is NOT looking good with their "marketing" decisions. They said they were not going to Charge for the platform, yet I have to pay to get my timelines back. I purchased Logos 4 on their word that TimeLines would be added later.
Well, I wasted that $100 upgrade. Now I have to do it again. >:(
NOT A HAPPY CUSTOMER.
Derek, give me a call. We'll take care of you.
360-685-2314
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You right, deceitful was a strong word, I'm thankful a solution is coming.
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We have rolled out a temporary solution for the "sold separately" misuse and will be rolling out more robust logic in the near future to be more precise with showing what is actually sold separately and what is not. In the meantime please report on this thread if you continue to see that phrase show-up in our resource descriptions. As both Dan and Phil had said, there was no intent on our part and we are moving as quickly as we can to resolve many of the issues (foreseen and unforeseen).
Thank you all for your feedback and patience.
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Really the easiest wayt to avoid all these problems is simply buy the least amount of products that meet you particular needs.
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"Deceitful" isn't just a strong word...it is slanderous. And given the "it isn't accurate so it must be deceiful" criterion, the charge is just as "deceitful" as the miscommunication, since it is absurd to even postulate that Logos did this on purpose. If Logos didn't intend to deceive--and they didn't--then the slanderous charge could potentially deceive customers and potential customers into thinking otherwise. Making the charge is more irresponsible than the imagined transgression.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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How in the world does one know if Logos wanted or didn't want to "deceive" its customers? We should surely know by now to have little faith in institutions using god as a way to make money off special consumers. While I can't presume to know what is in the head of management surely a customer must have some doubt when hundreds, in not thousands, of dollars are going to be invested in some code....yet again.
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Rene Atchley said:
How in the world does one know if Logos wanted or didn't want to "deceive" its customers? We should surely know by now to have little faith in institutions using god as a way to make money off special consumers. While I can't presume to know what is in the head of management surely a customer must have some doubt when hundreds, in not thousands, of dollars are going to be invested in some code....yet again.
Doubt is one thing...accusing someone of deception when you don't know for sure they are doing so is another. Why not follow what said in Matthew 18 and call Bob directly first before accusing the company publicly of deception. Especially when you say you don't know.
The thousand dollars is if you buy a thousand dollars of new books. Its under $100 for the new code. And its perfectly fair when the code is the result of many hours of experts in biblical languages hand tagging the new datasets. They are worthy of their hire.
The code to read your previously purchased resources will be free, and you can continue to use L4 until its released. The choice to upgrade is yours, you won't loose resources if you don't. Logos is merely saying if you would like additional new datasets, that you purchase the resources (datasets) needed to run them.
Like I said call Bob, this would be the biblical thing to do if you have something against what's being done.
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I am not sure what the bible has to do with a company that sells theology books for profit. Giving Logos the benefit of the doubt just seems like a good idea given all the money invested in this "premium" product.
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DMB said:
Deceitful is a hard word.
Indeed. Perhaps we should all do a word study on the verse that goes, "be ye kind one to another"
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David,Thank you for your awesome input....I acknowledge the deceit was a strong word. I only choose the word after many attempts to understand the site and options. Thanks again for your input.
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I don't know about the appropriateness of 'deceitful'. It's an older word that my father (a preacher) used to laughingly say to us kids, when he knew we intended for him not to know something. Did he really 'know'. Of course not. But we knew he knew.
No, my concern began when Logos first started marketing Logos4. That was with the appearance of the close cousin 'deceptive' as in 'advertising'. And having been in executive roles, as many on the forum also have, I personally don't like the comfort level with a behavioral standard that is lower than you regularly find 'outside'.
As I've previously noted on threads, executives don't accidentally market. It's careful, for obvious reasons. When I go to Amazon or Sweetwater, I don't see the constant little 'issues' that Logos manages to come up with. 'Sold separately' when quite clearly it's not. Comparison prices for products that are not even sold outside the company. Products advertised to customers, with no note that they're not even ready nor is there even a promise date. Each of these examples are on-going at Logos.
But again, last night when I saw the thread title and then the OP, I was reminded of my father. I don't think he'd have meant it in a mean way, nor the OP. But he came from a time when you were careful about what you offered to customers.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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My apologies for my previous post. I had not relized that there were many new features added to 4, including timelines etc., after I bought it.
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Mark so for those of us like myself that have platinum 4 + tons of seperate book orders invested my tune around 5000.00 you are saying we will be able to purchase an upgrade at a minimal price that contains all of the datasets? I hope it is true thanks
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On another note why should we have to wait until a release? if you are offering base packages which as wrote above isn't feasible for me seeing as my collection in Logos 4 is very extensive already and tailored to meet my needs per say the next upgrade level would not be worth it because I already have a collection bought over time that compares somewhat not always but elements of portfolio. We should have an option to upgrade to version 5 with all datasets unless logos would be ready to substitute already owned books and collections with compatible collections and books not already owned which I concur would be a nightmare for Logos so why not the simple version 5 upgrade being made availible to current owners?
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Richard - thank you for your thoughts. Please read Bob's thread here about the minimal crossgrade and free engine. You will have an option to upgrade that will include all of the data sets and some resources that will give you the full experience in Logos 5. The Logos 5 base packages (like the Logos 4 base packages) are a wonderful opportunity for anyone to get a great collection of books at a really low priced. But we understand that upgraded to one of our new base package line does not meet everyone's needs. As Bob mention's in his post we are working presently towards releasing the minimal crossgrade. Keep checking the blog and the forum for the announcement of its availability.
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Rene Has a valid point the scriptures do comdemn the sale of Yahs word no way around that however we understand that in order to maintain software like this you have to have someway of funding a company but again thats me Yah may not agree and the the penalty may end out being stiff that is according to both the New and Old Testament as far as all our individual opinions they don't really matter we will all be judged by the contents written in the bible no exceptions the prophet that really nails this is Ezekiel one had best not have ill gotten gain period because I believed Thus Saith Yahweh Elohim the soul that has ill gotten gain shall die end of discussion folks. So I like that Logos doesn't deal in credit (Usury which is forbidden) and this software although slow at times has been very useful to me and Logos cannot be resposible for the price publishers sell them the liscense for materials and as a former programmer now disabled vet the cost of developing and maintaining software is extremely expensive for all companies not just Logos plus the maintaining of staff customer support etc.
All in all Yahweh is the judge not us and I will continue to use and buy resources from Logos as needed and it may seem strange but I don't routinely attend or affiliate with one particular denomination or church so in a round abouts way my tithes are going to where I am being fed and this software is basically it does that make sense.
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Thanks Nathan appreciate that
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Richard Koons said:
Yah may not agree
Seems to me I read somewhere about not muzzling an ox and another place about a workman being worthy of his pay. [;)]
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