I have no place to give my tithe
Recently a friend of ours asked this question to which I couldn't give a complete answer. He and his wife were faithful attenders of a local church but left because of a bad experience - nothing immoral etc., just a bad experience. They haven't been back to a church for many years, but are now sensing the Lord's "conviction" to start tithing. Short of attending a church, how or where would you direct them to allocate their tithe?
mm
Comments
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There are many good charities both religious and secular where donations will get used for God pleasing things. Salvation army tends to always do good work with their donations. If a more religious bent is what you are looking for the Bible Societies again do a good job in making scriptures available both near and abroad.
-Dan
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Not what you want to hear I'm sure, but I think the tithing is a secondary issue here. They need to find out where they belong. And they might want to look at their "Christian" attitude too. I'm sure most of us have had experiences bad enough to want to leave a situation but geographical cures don't work here or elsewhere.
Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.
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Both Dan and Alex have made very good suggestions and advice. I would like to stress that it is very important that they do find a bible teaching and believing church. They will have to pray (and pray for themselves) and be led by God to where He wants them to be. In this process, they will most likely need to visit various churches, and it can not be do sitting home.
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A few years ago on a mission trip, of all places, a team member told me they no longer attended a church. I asked him, "How long have you been living in sin?"
Upset, he blustered and exclaimed,"I am not living in sin!"
I replied, "Sure you are. The same Bible that says 'Do not commit adultery' also says 'Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together'. Sin is sin. How long are you going to keep living in sin?"
I was not trying to condemn, but to make a point and to give a different perspective to this mission team member.
Which is to say, I agree that there is a bigger problem here than tithing. Surely, there is some church within driving distance where your friend can feel comfortable. Jesus said something about leaving your gift at the altar and first being reconciled to you brother.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
I know of a young seminarian who would love a book budget.
*chuckle*
They really ought to find another church, even if its a different denomination, or a different assembly within the denomination.
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Dan Francis said:
Salvation army tends to always do good work with their donations. If a more religious bent is what you are looking for the Bible Societies again do a good job in making scriptures available both near and abroad.
Just an aside - The Salvation Army is actually a denomination - it's along the Methodist lines, but is its own denominational entity. It was actually the church I attended growing up, and I have family who are "officers" (Pastors). Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, the Salvation Army decided to allow their public image to go more secular to the point where very few people recognize that it is actually a church (one of the reasons I no longer attend - to me a church should be public about their commitment to the Lord).
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RMC said:
very few people recognize that it is actually a church
Wow! I can't imagine anyone in Sweden not knowing that. Well, Muslims and recent immigrants may not know, I guess, but the average person certainly would. They probably wouldn't have much of a clue about their theology, and the younger ones might be a bit dim on whether they're a separate church or a group within another church, but I have a hard time imagining anyone would believe they're secular. In fact, when secular Swedes are asked what Christian group they like best, I believe the answer tend to be the Salvation Army.
I've actually wondered at times why I never hear about them in America. I guess I just got the answer.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Michael Childs said:
I agree that there is a bigger problem here than tithing. Surely, there is some church within driving distance where your friend can feel comfortable. Jesus said something about leaving your gift at the altar and first being reconciled to you brother.
+1
Might I suggest a resource? The Peacemaker, by Ken Sande, is excellent.
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Milkman said:
Short of attending a church, how or where would you direct them to allocate their tithe?
Having just completed a six-month search for a new Church home, I can emphasize with your friends. However, as others have said, their main problem is not where to send their tithe, but where to attend. When that get that right, the other will fall into place.
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Milkman said:
Short of attending a church, how or where would you direct them to allocate their tithe?
The Bible says to bring the tithe in. Would that not necessitate attending church?
Milkman said:mm
totally off-topic: My first reading of your signature line was mm = "Merry Meet" rather than "MilkMan. It threw me for a moment since it is a Wiccan greeting. [:O]
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Michael Childs said:
A few years ago on a mission trip, of all places, a team member told me they no longer attended a church. I asked him, "How long have you been living in sin?"
[Y][Y]
I am just finishing my near annual re-read of _The Hammer of God_ and this reminds me of a scene between a young pastor and a good friend...
"I thought I noticed in church today that you dared to brand my way of following my conscience as sin. I am not angry with you for that. But I thought it was too bad that you would have such a hard time to understand a different point of view."
"My own point of view I would leave at any time if only we could remain friends, Gunnar. But Christ's point of view I can never leave. In the final account, this is not a matter of points of view, but it concerns our eternal salvation!"
"And so you have today bound me to eternal damnation!"
"No, Gunnar, to eternal salvation so that you might not forget that it exists. I will follow you from this day on till you cannot endure any day longer of being bound in sin, as you now have been for several months."
The Hammer of God by Bo Giertz, pg. 298, copyright 2005 Augsburg Fortress, Minneapolis
Someday I will get the vyrso edition in addition to my dead tree edition that is getting a bit dog-eared...
SDG
Ken McGuire
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
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Milkman said:
Recently a friend of ours asked this question to which I couldn't give a complete answer. He and his wife were faithful attenders of a local church but left because of a bad experience - nothing immoral etc., just a bad experience. They haven't been back to a church for many years, but are now sensing the Lord's "conviction" to start tithing. Short of attending a church, how or where would you direct them to allocate their tithe?
mm
I'd be willing to accept it. [8-|] Seriously, they should find another church. That shouldn't be a problem. There's a church every ½ mile. Try before you buy.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Some congregations are only a few people who meet at someone's home for study. If this is the case, I would suggest using the money in some way to help the needy and feed the poor. Helping someone pay their electric or hospital bill is a huge relief. You can even do anonymously.
Where I live, you don't have to look far to find a needy person.
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Kenneth McGuire said:
my near annual re-read of _The Hammer of God_
[Y][Y][Y]
Go recommend that in the other thread where someone wondered what he should read in preparation for theological studies. I thought about it, but it would be better coming from you.
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Rick said:
Where I live, you don't have to look far to find a needy person.
After the past four years they're everywhere. You can expect more in the coming four years. [:(]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Rick said:
Some congregations are only a few people who meet at someone's home for study.
Though I'm a pastor of a denominational / traditional church, I agree with Rick. I think our Lord's definition of church body extends to any 2 or 3 gathered in His name to study & worship. I also trust He'll lead each group to find a place in His mission, to which a tithe would naturally be of benefit.
That said, I also agree with the excellent advice above that your friends' 1st priority should be becoming members of a Christian fellowship / body (members in God's eyes, not merely obtaining a certificate of membership). At that point, they'll find the answer to their question about a tithe.
Lastly, to turn this thread toward the purpose of these forums (since after all we're Logos' guests), there are many (even in these forums) who would be greatly blessed (& would in turn bless others) from a gift of a Logos package suitable for pastoral work.
Grace & Peace,
Bill
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- Thanks for all the great advice - I know how I should respond.
- Super Tramp? As you mentioned before in a thread a while ago that I replied to or started. Just to reiterate: the mm DOES NOT MEAN merry meet as we discussed. mm is for milkman.... other than that thanks for your advice as well.
mm
aka milkman
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Milkman said:
the mm DOES NOT MEAN merry meet as we discussed. mm is for milkman....
And I thought it stood for "Merry Mead" indicating that you were a Miss Marple fan. [;)]
CORRECTION: That should have been "Mary Mead."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Milkman said:
- Thanks for all the great advice - I know how I should respond.
I would suggest for them to save their tithe until they find a church; and finding a church should be their first priority.
EDIT: Adding a quote from A.W. Pink "Tithing"
In the first place I would suggest this. Form the habit of taking out one-tenth from all
the money that you receive either as wages or gifts. Subtract one-tenth and put it into a
separate bag, or box, or purse. That is what it means when it says in 1 Corinthians 16, "laying
by in store." And that box or purse is the Lord's, not yours. It is holy unto Him. Form the
habit of taking out a tenth from all you receive, putting it into a separate compartment be-
longing to the Lord.In the second place, get a small book, a cheap notebook, and on one page put down all
your receipts (it will not take some of you very long-one entry, I suppose, at the end of the
week) and on the other page put down the disbursement of God's "tithe."And then in the third place make it a matter of definite prayer to God to guide you in
the disbursement as to where He would have you use the money that belongs to Him. It is
not yours; it is His; for remember you have not even begun to give at all until you have first
paid your tithe. Giving comes in afterwards. The tithe is the Lord's. That is His. That is not
yours to give at all; that belongs to the Creator. You have not begun to give until you have
done your tithing.0 -
George Somsel said:
There's a church every ½ mile.
Certainly not our situation here in Czech Rep. [:(]
Bohuslav
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george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
I like your optimism George. [Y]
Bohuslav
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I am well aware that the Salvation Army is a denomination. And I do agree finding a Church home is important, I am just trying to point to a Christian organization that does much good work, and yes they do not trumpet their faith but it's not exactly a secret either. And though they might not always seeming anouce their faith they do more good for the poor and down trodden than many groups ever do… Show me you faith without works… I will show you my with through my works. To paraphrase James.
-Dan
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First and formost God cares about your life.Pray to God to show you the right place for you. We humanbings have a lot of difinitions about many things ,because we are used to it. My suggestion is ,if you pray to the Lord he will give you the exact answer which fits for you, otherewise it will be endless......
May the Lord guide you and lead you His way.
Blessings in Christ.
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It is good that your friend feels convicted to do more. There are many charities that will be happy to accept donations.
But I might be tempted to dig a little bit deeper into your friends heart, and find out what is behind this desire. As others have already posted, maybe this really arises out of feeling a deeper need for fellowship with God and others.
Even a quick survey of the New Testament will reveal that tithing is not a New Testament doctrine, so I suspect your friend has been taught unbiblical doctrines by a tithe-collecting church in the past. Malachai 3 is one of the most abused portions of scripture in the entire Bible.
Jesus typically demanded 100% obedience from his disciples. Those who are satisfied giving 10% and feel religiously justified afterwards might just be fooling themselves. It always amazes me how those who proudly proclaim they are not under the law suddenly jump right back under it when it comes to the issue of tithing.
Reconciliation with God is the ultimate message of the New Testament, and that comes through accepting the message of the cross, not by giving money.
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John said:
tithing is not a New Testament doctrine
I just knew someone was going to go down that path. Tithing has nothing to do with doctrine or law or whatever. It is an act of worship. Abraham gave a tenth as an act of worship to his God. If anyone wants to worship another god, be it their money, their possessions or themselves, let them spend their money there.
And while I'm ranting, the tithe is for the work of the ministry in the church. Charitable giving is not tithing, although it is certainly commendable and right to do so.
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Alex Scott said:John said:
tithing is not a New Testament doctrine
I just knew someone was going to go down that path. Tithing has nothing to do with doctrine or law or whatever. It is an act of worship. Abraham gave a tenth as an act of worship to his God. If anyone wants to worship another god, be it their money, their possessions or themselves, let them spend their money there.
And while I'm ranting, the tithe is for the work of the ministry in the church. Charitable giving is not tithing, although it is certainly commendable and right to do so.
There are a number of things which have been elevated almost to the point of being considered Christian "Law." Tithing is one. In Acts it is interesting to note that some consider the early church to have been socialistic, but the passage
"Ananias," Peter asked, "why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, were not the proceeds at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!"Ac 5.3-4
indicates that it was not because he had not given everything to the church but that he had lied regarding it. Similarly, we are nowhere told that we must attend church services regularly, or every Sunday. What we are told is to not forsake the assembly of ourselves—perhaps they might want to get together and go bowling rather than lean their elbows on the nearest bar with those who do not share Christian convictions. Ignatius contrasts Sabbath observance with the Christian feast
9. If, then, those who had lived in antiquated practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord’s day, on which our life also arose through him and his death (which some deny), the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we might be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher,Ignatius, To the Magnesians 9.1
I suspect that much of Hebrews is concerned with that very contrast
4 For in one place it speaks about the seventh day as follows, "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works." 5 And again in this place it says, "They shall not enter my rest." 6 Since therefore it remains open for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he sets a certain day—"today"—saying through David much later, in the words already quoted,
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."
8
Heb 4.4-11
He also speaks of a new covenant in contrast to the old covenant where Sabbath keeping was enjoined and contrasts law with grace.
Nevertheless, the Church has continually been bedeviled by a tendency to slip into legalism.
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later about another day. 9 So then, a sabbath rest still remains for the people of God; 10 for those who enter God’s rest also cease from their labors as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one may fall through such disobedience as theirs.george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Alex Scott said:
Tithing has nothing to do with doctrine or law
So very true. Tithing and Sabbath both preceeded the Law. That is why I am perplexed when my IFB church teaches the tithe but not the Sabbath. [:^)]
I have heard it taught that there were three types of giving in the Old Testament times and to be "righteous" you would be expected to practice all three:
- 10% tithe, to support the temple (belongs to God Malachi 3:8)
- 10% offering to God (gratitude)
- 10% alms giving to the poor and lame (good works)
(source: Dallas Theological Seminary)
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Well, looks like we have another 'keeper' (George's previous nugget was 'the modern gnostics'). Some day when he reaches 40, he should publish a PB for us.
I've always been impressed the NT discussed giving to the poor and traveling teachers (traveling prophets apparently added by Didache). Then there's that 'double honor' which obvious can NOT be skipping your share twice of the meeting costs. Uh huh. No, no, no.
The early Acts discussion of shared wealth you'd think had properly died until it also popped back up in Didache.
But no problem. After we got the super-size BBQ, full-size sheep falling off the grill was no longer a problem.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Alex Scott said:
Tithing has nothing to do with doctrine or law or whatever. It is an act of worship. Abraham gave a tenth as an act of worship to his God.
Well, for that matter, keeping the law is an act of worship. Was always intended as such and never intended to be anything but.
Tithing is always on animals and plants...i.e. foodstuffs. Never anything else...except for Abraham's tithe.
Abraham tithed on spoils of war...not his own personal increase taken from the ground. Regardless of what Hebrews says about what Abraham did, it didn't correlate to what tithing as a practice was instituted for. When a person tithes, he ends up with 90% in his hands. What did Abraham have after tithing? Nada. He was absolutely empty-handed.* In fact, according to Tohraah in Num. 31:25-54, the division of war booty does not follow the pattern of tithing. It is a whole different animal.
*But not exactly empty-handed...which is why YHWH shows up (ignore the chapter division between 14 & 15) and says "I am your exceeding great reward".
Tithing is for the priesthood. 1 Pet. 2:9 If you are a priest, you can use it how you see fit...but, of course, you will be judged according to how you use it. Misusing it will get you killed like Eli's sons.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Denise, you are one the most humorous and also one of the most enigmatic posters on the forum. I frequently laugh at your posts...but I'm often not exactly sure why I'm doing it. As often as not, I have no clue what your saying, but nevertheless hold the conviction that if I did, I might just agree with you. [:S]
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
Denise, you are one the most humorous and also one of the most enigmatic posters on the forum. I frequently laugh at your posts...but I'm often not exactly sure why I'm doing it.
I find myself in the same boat. I am both cracked up by the humor and often sent to my room to contemplate. [:P]
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Super Tramp said:Alex Scott said:
Tithing has nothing to do with doctrine or law
So very true. Tithing and Sabbath both preceeded the Law. That is why I am perplexed when my IFB church teaches the tithe but not the Sabbath.
I have heard it taught that there were three types of giving in the Old Testament times and to be "righteous" you would be expected to practice all three:
- 10% tithe, to support the temple (belongs to God Malachi 3:8)
- 10% offering to God (gratitude)
- 10% alms giving to the poor and lame (good works)
(source: Dallas Theological Seminary)
Trying to solve the tithing puzzle in Scripture is like trying to solve a Gordian Knot. I once belonged to a church that taught 3 tithes...not exactly in the breakdown you mention, but close. The problem is that it isn't exactly clear if 3 distinct tithes are mentioned, or if one tenth is used for a variety of purposes--it just isn't very clear. Of course, since 3 is better than 1, it isn't surprising that some are confident that 3 tithes are intended.
Re: Sabbath vs. Tithing...perhaps you should consider a new church? [:D]
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I'll just +1 on the advice to find a church. More than the tithe. Community is the core basis for a believer. The tithe is really closer to recycling than giving because God is so overwhelmingly gracious to us.
I spent a long time out of regular fellowship for a variety of reasons, most all of them stupid. I wouldn't want to miss a service now for anything and rarely do.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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NOT tithing. Why that’s just an ‘obamanation’, who ever heard of such a thing…….
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Can we please stop using Mr. Obama's name in that way. Not everyone who uses Logos is a political conservative. Besides, this shows a tremendous lack of respect.
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I have to agree with Richard.
I am on the right politically (technically I am somewhere between Libertarian and Republican, while registered republican), and I am guilty of using Obama's name in that way... However I've recently been under conviction to be more respectful of the leader God has selected. God is sovereign over the vote. He raises up leaders. I can dislike the man, and his politic, but I must respect him as God's choice for leader at this point in history.
I did not, would not vote for him - ever. But I must respect him for the next 49 months.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Ken Baker said:
I did not, would not vote for him - ever. But I must respect him for the next 49 months.
Very well said [Y]. The biggest problem in this country—other than the need for a new Spiritual Awakening—is the very antagonistic political division.
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Ken Baker said:
I have to agree with Richard.
I am on the right politically (technically I am somewhere between Libertarian and Republican, while registered republican), and I am guilty of using Obama's name in that way... However I've recently been under conviction to be more respectful of the leader God has selected. God is sovereign over the vote. He raises up leaders. I can dislike the man, and his politic, but I must respect him as God's choice for leader at this point in history.
I did not, would not vote for him - ever. But I must respect him for the next 49 months.In a lot of ways, disrespecting the President (whichever party he is) is a lot like refusing to go to Babylon (ref. Jerimiah). Whether it is medicine or it is judgment, He expects you to take it.
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Michael Childs said:
A few years ago on a mission trip, of all places, a team member told me they no longer attended a church. I asked him, "How long have you been living in sin?"
Upset, he blustered and exclaimed,"I am not living in sin!"
I replied, "Sure you are. The same Bible that says 'Do not commit adultery' also says 'Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together'. Sin is sin. How long are you going to keep living in sin?"
I was not trying to condemn, but to make a point and to give a different perspective to this mission team member.
Which is to say, I agree that there is a bigger problem here than tithing. Surely, there is some church within driving distance where your friend can feel comfortable. Jesus said something about leaving your gift at the altar and first being reconciled to you brother.
I have to be honest I have searched through 4 different bible software programs and cannot find one instance that connects sin and not tithing.
Would you be so gracious as to point me to some verse(s)[NT] that vindicates that not tithing is considered a sin as a directive from God.
I only ask because you connect Heb 10.25 with sinning, which altho this is not the first I have heard of it, but fail to see how there is a connection.
The Scriptures say, by the writing's of Paul to "Pray without ceasing.' If you cannot do this you are sinning. Are you Praying without ceasing? You do believe in the scriptures, correct.......
[Hebrews 10:25 (KJV)
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.NOT: Do not forsake... there's a big difference, in a parallel of 8 version not one has Do not]
Thank-you in advance for your reply, and anyone else who desires to comment.
R4m
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Michael Childs said:
A few years ago on a mission trip, of all places, a team member told me they no longer attended a church. I asked him, "How long have you been living in sin?"
Upset, he blustered and exclaimed,"I am not living in sin!"
I replied, "Sure you are. The same Bible that says 'Do not commit adultery' also says 'Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together'. Sin is sin. How long are you going to keep living in sin?"
I was not trying to condemn, but to make a point and to give a different perspective to this mission team member.
Which is to say, I agree that there is a bigger problem here than tithing. Surely, there is some church within driving distance where your friend can feel comfortable. Jesus said something about leaving your gift at the altar and first being reconciled to you brother.
Just where does it say that it is a sin to fail to attend church? It says that we should not fail to assemble together as Christians, but I see nothing to indicate that this requires a church setting. I think you're reading too much into it.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Room4more said:
Would you be so gracious as to point me to some verse(s)[NT] that vindicates that not tithing is considered a sin as a directive from God.
I believe Rev. Childs comment is that disregarding participation in a local church was the deeper problem.
Room4more said:a team member told me they no longer attended a church.
as he says here
Room4more said:there is a bigger problem here than tithing
1 Cor 11:29-30 is one text that says those who "disregard the body" drink judgment to themselves. Many commentators believe that the context (transitioning into 1 Cor 12-14 discussion of spiritual gifts in the gathered Body of Christ) indicated that the "body" referred to in 1 Cor 11:29 is the "body of Christ" so in essence it is sin to live with ongoing disregard for the assembled body of Christ.
P.S. since Logos forums are not intended to be a place to debate theology, I will not enter a debate on this subject. I am simply trying to answer your request for Scripture citation to support the idea that total disregard for the local body is sin.
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David Thomas said:
[...]
1 Cor 11:29-30 is one text that says those who "disregard the body" drink judgment to themselves. Many commentators believe that the context (transitioning into 1 Cor 12-14 discussion of spiritual gifts in the gathered Body of Christ) indicated that the "body" referred to in 1 Cor 11:29 is the "body of Christ" so in essence it is sin to live with ongoing disregard for the assembled body of Christ.
P.S. since Logos forums are not intended to be a place to debate theology, I will not enter a debate on this subject. I am simply trying to answer your request for Scripture citation to support the idea that total disregard for the local body is sin.
I would almost agree, but you left out verse(s) of utmost importance to bring justification to your claim in using this as a reference, that be v27 AND 28
1 Corinthians 11:27-28 (KJV)
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
wherein it helps to clarify Paul's meaning of your selection of this section. (you didn't leave this out on purpose just to satisfy something did you?By the way do you "Pray without ceasing"?
If we start to read the book in the middle we miss the prologue and other things are left to our own devises'
As to your logos statement, I tend to agree, maybe others should consider before they type and hit "POST".....
R4m
-the Scriptures also teach that the learned will lead the un-learned astray...............
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"Pray without ceasing". Never met anyone yet who can answer "YES"
This is a good one, i like it dearly, usually I ask this of those who desire to claim the Scriptures speak of something being a 'sin' when the Scriptures are silent and it was formed from mans own mis-understanding. Why?
Well quit simply, when I ask those they are usually the ones who drop their stones and walk away.................
so I guess I will go back to the sidelines and should others be comtemplating or formulating a reply, they may reconsider.
R4m
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Room4more said:
"Pray without ceasing". Never met anyone yet who can answer "YES"
Prayer is the soul’s sincere desire,
Unuttered or expressed;
The motion of a hidden fire
That trembles in the breast.Prayer is the burden of a sigh,
The falling of a tear
The upward glancing of an eye,
When none but God is near.Prayer is the simplest form of speech
That infant lips can try;
Prayer, the sublimest strains
That reach The Majesty on high.Prayer is the Christian’s vital breath,
The Christian’s native air,
His watchword at the gates of death;
He enters Heav’n with prayer.Prayer is the contrite sinner’s voice,
Returning from his ways,
While angels in their songs rejoice
And cry, “Behold, he prays!”The saints in prayer appear as one
In word, in deed, and mind,
While with the Father and the Son
Sweet fellowship they find.No prayer is made by man alone
The Holy Spirit pleads,
And Jesus, on th’eternal throne,
For sinners intercedes.O Thou by Whom we come to God,
The Life, the Truth, the Way,
The path of prayer Thyself hast trod:
Lord, teach us how to pray.george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I always try to vote for the guy (usually) that God picks.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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See thats a hard statement to quantify.
I try to evaluate the candidates using scripture as the measuring stick. The one who stands closest gets my vote.
HOWEVER, what if God's choice (as with this time) is not the person I think to be the most closely aligned with scripture (truth be told, neither of the major candidates were particularly close).
So when God selects a leader to judge us, how then does one know he is voting WITH God?How does one know when God is selecting such a leader, or what specific criteria that will make this election go differently from elections past?
I would prefer to vote for the man God has chosen for each election, but failing to divine his choice, I must and do cast my ballot based upon scriptural principals.
Not killing unborn babies being high on the list.
May our Lord return quickly...L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Ken Baker said:
HOWEVER, what if God's choice (as with this time) is not the person I think to be the most closely aligned with scripture (truth be told, neither of the major candidates were particularly close).
So when God selects a leader to judge us, how then does one know he is voting WITH God?I would prefer to vote for the man God has chosen for each election, but failing to divine his choice, I must and do cast my ballot based upon scriptural principals.
You ask many pertinent and probing questions with profound implications...and then choose to completely ignore them. Strange.
If YHWH chooses leaders--and He says He does--and you've voted for "the other guy" (whomever that may be), aren't you casting yourself as His adversary? What compels you to assume you must gamble against YHWH with your vote?
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I don't feel as though its a gamble. God is sovereign over my vote (and yours
)
I feel like there is an expectation that we ought to vote along moral lines (salt and light? Salt is a preservative you'll remember). However I feel as though God in his sovereignty can and does often cause leaders to be in power, that will be a judgement upon a people. Consider Israel, despite there always being a remnant, God allowed bad leaders, and bad nations to conquer them over and over.
I'm sure the remnant didn't want to be subject to Assyria. But never the less it happened.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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David Paul said:
You ask many pertinent and probing questions with profound implications...and then choose to completely ignore them. Strange.
If YHWH chooses leaders--and He says He does--and you've voted for "the other guy" (whomever that may be), aren't you casting yourself as His adversary? What compels you to assume you must gamble against YHWH with your vote?
Would you prefer that Ken (and others) refrain from voting? [:D]
Did not the disciples cast lots between two candidates to replace Judas? Since there will only be 12 Apostolic thrones in heaven, either God ignored their choice of Mathias or Paul was mistaken to call himself an "Apostle ." Maybe God did not want either Obama or Romney to rule over America and chose to raise up a new Pharaoh in Egypt to rule over the USA. [:O]
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