New Feature in Logos 5: Popular Highlights
Comments
-
Doc B said:
I just got a popup Logos message in L5 that says you've highlighted all the racy parts of Song of Solomon.
I just read about you highlighting those the Homeland Security website. You're now on the "Watchlist".[;)]
0 -
Ben Torell said:
If you want to disable popular highlights for all resources, you can right-click on the Popular Highlights Visual Filter and select “Do not show in any resources.”
The problem with that method is:-
- You have to find a resource with the VF
- If the tick box is empty you cannot tell whether it has been turned off in ALL resources because the menu item is not ticked.
But I strongly feel there should be a Program setting to NOT receive Popular Highlights (or community ratings, community tags) which then turns OFF the relevant feature for displaying them.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Dave Hooton said:You have to find a resource with the VF
If the tick box is empty you cannot tell whether it has been turned off in ALL resources because the menu item is not ticked.Dave,
Did you see my post just up the way? It names a resource that has the PH visual filter (Piper's Fifty Ways). If you have that one, just open it and choose 'Do not show' and you're done with it.
If you don't have that resource, just pick a currently popular pleasure-reading type book, and you are likely to find it.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
0 -
Dave Hooton said:
You have to find a resource with the VF
If you can't find a resource with the VF, then whether it's on or off isn't going to make any difference at all!
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Fredc said:
I just read about you highlighting those the Homeland Security website. You're now on the "Watchlist".
Fred,
Many years ago, I was a high-school boy. I had various girlfriends, and I was on their dads' watchlist. So Homeland Security doesn't bother me much. [:D]
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
0 -
Mark Barnes said:Dave Hooton said:
You have to find a resource with the VF
If you can't find a resource with the VF, then whether it's on or off isn't going to make any difference at all!
I'm sure if you really thought about that you wouldn't have said it, since it puts aside what I was really saying.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Doc B said:
Did you see my post just up the way? It names a resource that has the PH visual filter (Piper's Fifty Ways).
You also missed the point because I did find a resource.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
How many user highlights have to be submitted before popular highlights is applied?
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
0 -
Bruce Dunning said:
How many user highlights have to be submitted before popular highlights is applied?
If Mark highlighted it, just one... [6]
0 -
[:D]
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
0 -
David Taylor Jr said:
Can we quit being ridiculous and silly and enjoy the new feature?
Why is it that someone who disagrees with Logos, mentions they failed to deliver on promised features or in this case are going against the EULA, always has to be insulted? Would it be ridiculous or silly if it were any other company violating the EULA?
The fact is that for customers to prevent Logos from using their information against their wishes is to lose functionality by turning internet off. That was the same lame answer I received today when I called customer service about the potential to block the "community" highlights, etc... Where in the EULA do we agree to have "community" data forced into our Bible Study?
While it may be minor to some, for some it is a big deal, Logos could simply honor those customers by having the ability to opt out of this unwarranted sharing and forced Faithlife data in the software.
The sad part is, it won't be long before someone gets tired of this nonsense and we will see the legal channel taken - is that what we really want? Is that what Logos really wants?
Simple solution - don't punish users who do not want to be a part of this process by giving them only a solution that limits or constricts the software.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
0 -
I wonder if I am missing something (which according to my wife I usually am), but I don't know how I am going to benefit by seeing what others highlight.
I will try having the visual filter turned on for a while just to see, but I expect I will turn it off.
0 -
Frank ... good points.
Ronald .... just answering your question (though you might have already answered it just seconds after you asked). But whenever I get a used book (and I do that a lot these days, it's so easy), quite often it has highlighting or notes. And I happily read their highlights. Why? I don't know. I guess because it's another person being interested in what I'm interested in?
But the question does illustrate the desirability of options. I've not understood why Logos is so hard-nosed on taking user data against their wishes. I've read over and over from the other forum members how sweet Logos really is. And quite a number of people work there so probably it's true. Just a mystery about Bob's personality.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
tom said:
Nothing wrong here, but if you are now sending out the statistical data that used my information, you are now sharing my data.
Seems a bit of a stretch to claim that anonymous statistical data is the logical equivalent of your data.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Frank Sauer said:
Why is it that someone who disagrees with Logos, mentions they failed to deliver on promised features or in this case are going against the EULA, always has to be insulted? Would it be ridiculous or silly if it were any other company violating the EULA?
It certainly would be good to have an adult conversation about this issue, and words like 'ridiculous' and 'silly' don't help that. But however much some people don't like the aggregation of highlighting, Logos haven't broken the EULA, or their privacy policy. Claiming that they have does not help either (and it was that which prompted the 'silly' comment). If we're going to have an adult discussion, it needs to be one that sticks to the facts and doesn't make wild claims, or assume the wild claims of others.
Frank Sauer said:The fact is that for customers to prevent Logos from using their information against their wishes is to lose functionality by turning internet off. That was the same lame answer I received today when I called customer service about the potential to block the "community" highlights, etc...
I agree that is lame, and unhelpful. Setting "Send Feedback" to "None" ought to be enough to stop a user's highlights being aggregated. (Although I fully intend to leave my "Send Feedback" to "All", I don't think it unreasonable that people should have an opt-out).
Frank Sauer said:Simple solution - don't punish users who do not want to be a part of this process by giving them only a solution that limits or constricts the software.
Agreed.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
I like this new feature.
IMO 5 highlights is way too low to be considered a popular highlight. Before long entire books will be highlighted.
I would prefer the threshold to be set higher than 5 highlights or even better I would prefer to custom set the threshold myself.
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
0 -
Also, the format of [5 highlights] is distracting.
How about a simple icon in the same fashion as the icon for community notes that can indicate how many highlights when the mouse is over the icon.
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
0 -
Ronald Quick said:
I don't know how I am going to benefit by seeing what others highlight.
The only value I see in this—and community ratings, community tags, etc—is for those who wish to allow others to do their thinking for them.
0 -
Alan said:
IMO 5 highlights is way too low to be considered a popular highlight. Before long entire books will be highlighted.
The minimum level is dynamic. So popular sections with lots of highlighting would need significantly more than five highlights to be highlighted.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Jack Caviness said:
The only value I see in this—and community ratings, community tags, etc—is for those who wish to allow others to do their thinking for them.
Because I count you a friend, Jack, I'm going to be blunt — you're speaking nonsense! [:P] You may justifiably decide that these highlights don't suit your study, but if that's the only value you see in them for anyone, then you're not doing enough thinking. Everything we take in when we're using Logos has been created by other people or at least influenced by other people. When I read Carson's commentary on John, Carson is aiding my thinking, not thinking for me. When my eye is drawn to sections that others have highlighted, then those anonymous Logos users are aiding my thinking, not thinking for me. Like everything else in Logos, Popular Highlights is another dataset to be used discerningly.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Mark Barnes said:
Like everything else in Logos, Popular Highlights is another dataset to be used discerningly.
Yes!
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Jacob Hantla said:Mark Barnes said:
Like everything else in Logos, Popular Highlights is another dataset to be used discerningly.
Yes!
I agree. Discernment must be applied to everything we read or study. Discernment is closely related to wisdom.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
0 -
Mark Barnes said:
Because I count you a friend, Jack, I'm going to be blunt — you're speaking nonsense!
Perhaps I was just wanting to think for others [:D]
0 -
Jack Caviness said:Ronald Quick said:
I don't know how I am going to benefit by seeing what others highlight.
The only value I see in this—and community ratings, community tags, etc—is for those who wish to allow others to do their thinking for them.
Or to see what others are thinking. I think community highlights are a great idea.Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
0 -
I haven't used popular highlights enough to see if I will personally like it, but I think it is a great idea of Logos and I'm glad to see that others like it.
0 -
Are the community highlights going to be available in the Journals as well? I've just glanced through a couple from my journals collection and haven't seen any highlighting, but I may have not selected the ones that anyone has highlighted anything.
0 -
MJ. Smith said:tom said:
Nothingstatistics here, but if you are now sending out the statistical data that used my information, you are now sharing my data.
Seems a bit of a stretch to claim that anonymous statistical data is the logical equivalent of your data.
Have to disagree MJ... When you generate anonymous statistics using user data - it is compiled of each users personal data. Just because Logos calls it anonymous does not negate the fact that they are using our data to generate theirs.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
0 -
One little thing that bugs me a little....when I build a lesson, I highlight, copy and paste into Word...the problem, the lesson will show "8 Highlights" (for example), but does not show the underlined highlighted area...I like the highlights in my resource, but really don't want any thing in my Word document like that, so I have to turn the highlighting routine off....
Chuck
Laptop: Lenovo P580 - 15.6" IdeaPad Laptop
- 6GB Memory - 750GB Hard Drive - Windows 7
Iphone5s Logos 7, Bronze0 -
Chuck P. said:
One little thing that bugs me a little....when I build a lesson, I highlight, copy and paste into Word...the problem, the lesson will show "8 Highlights" (for example), but does not show the underlined highlighted area...I like the highlights in my resource, but really don't want any thing in my Word document like that, so I have to turn the highlighting routine off....
We will fix that in a future version.
David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife0 -
Frank Sauer said:
When you generate anonymous statistics using user data - it is compiled of each users personal data.
Quite true. However, you cannot generate the data from your data nor can you identify the effect of your data. Arm & Hammer can't call my mother's oatmeal cookies theirs even though they supply an ingredient for them. If Logos permitted us to limit who was used in the statistics (e.g. compare against FreeWill Baptist ministers living in Bellingham) you would have a strong case. As long as Logos makes sure that the sample size is large enough to ensure that the data is anonymous, they have a strong case. As for where the tipping point is, I'm too lazy to attempt the math.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
-
Frank Sauer said:
When you generate anonymous statistics using user data - it is compiled of each users personal data. Just because Logos calls it anonymous does not negate the fact that they are using our data to generate theirs.
No-one is disputing that. But what's shared isn't your data. It's their data.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Mark Barnes said:
Like everything else in Logos, Popular Highlights is another dataset to be used discerningly.
It isn't a data set that I paid for and I prefer not having my Bible software waste time telling me what other people are thinking. My discernment begins and ends with the choice of material that I study and I'm really annoyed that I have to waste time switching off, or dealing with the side-effects of these other "thoughts". There should be an option in Settings that says "Use community information" Yes/No and No means I don't get the information and it doesn't affect any features in Library or resources.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Mark Barnes said:Frank Sauer said:
When you generate anonymous statistics using user data - it is compiled of each users personal data. Just because Logos calls it anonymous does not negate the fact that they are using our data to generate theirs.
No-one is disputing that. But what's shared isn't your data. It's their data.
I think this is the crux point at which most people get confused.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
0 -
Dave Hooton said:Mark Barnes said:
Like everything else in Logos, Popular Highlights is another dataset to be used discerningly.
It isn't a data set that I paid for and I prefer not having my Bible software waste time telling me what other people are thinking. My discernment begins and ends with the choice of material that I study and I'm really annoyed that I have to waste time switching off, or dealing with the side-effects of these other "thoughts". There should be an option in Settings that says "Use community information" Yes/No and No means I don't get the information and it doesn't affect any features in Library or resources.
[Y]
0 -
Dave Hooton said:
It isn't a data set that I paid for and I prefer not having my Bible software waste time telling me what other people are thinking. My discernment begins and ends with the choice of material that I study and I'm really annoyed that I have to waste time switching off, or dealing with the side-effects of these other "thoughts". There should be an option in Settings that says "Use community information" Yes/No and No means I don't get the information and it doesn't affect any features in Library or resources.
I couldn't agree more. I use my Bible Software to study God's Word to produce sermons and Bible Studies for my people as well as using it to pursue my own personal academic interests. For my own personal devotions I use a printed Bible. End of story.
Every blessing
Alan
iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8
MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8
iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1
iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1
0 -
Mark Barnes said:Frank Sauer said:
When you generate anonymous statistics using user data - it is compiled of each users personal data. Just because Logos calls it anonymous does not negate the fact that they are using our data to generate theirs.
No-one is disputing that. But what's shared isn't your data. It's their data.
So what i highlight, read and how much time i spend using the program and resources is not my data?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
0 -
Frank Sauer said:
So what i highlight, read and how much time i spend using the program and resources is not my data?
Yes, it's your data. But it's not shared. What's shared is aggregated data, not your data.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Frank Sauer said:
So what i highlight, read and how much time i spend using the program and resources is not my data?
No, that is your data. The number of times the 3rd sentence of paragraph 4 on page 19 of book xyz is highlighted is their data. The fact that you highlighted it is yours, the fact that a total of 57 people highlighted it is theirs, or at least theirs to use.
0 -
Mark Barnes said:Frank Sauer said:
So what i highlight, read and how much time i spend using the program and resources is not my data?
Yes, it's your data. But it's not shared. What's shared is aggregated data, not your data.
How do they compile their aggregated data? By taking my data, your data and everyone's data into their calculations ... Unless we are all missing something. So if this is the case as many have expressed allow us to opt out. Many websites and software companies have already had the courts rule in the users favor in these areas. Think Apple & Google with tracking "anonymous" locations, web usage, etc
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
0 -
Frank Sauer said:
How do they compile their aggregated data? By taking my data, your data and everyone's data into their calculations ... Unless we are all missing something. So if this is the case as many have expressed allow us to opt out.
I completely agree that there should be an opportunity to opt out, and have consistently argued for that in this thread. But I stand by my original point: Logos are not sharing your data.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
I need to read the EULA closer but I would contend that they could say legally that by allowing the sync to happen you give them the right to "your data." But once again what is the definition of personal data?
0 -
Frank Sauer said:
So if this is the case as many have expressed allow us to opt out. Many websites and software companies have already had the courts rule in the users favor in these areas. Think Apple & Google with tracking "anonymous" locations, web usage, etc
You can opt out, by running the software without an Internet connection. But it sounds like you're really asking for is the ability to opt-out at a more fine-grained level: you want this Internet-enabled function, but not that one.
Different companies support different levels of tracking / opt-out. Google lets me choose to use the search engine "logged out", at the price of losing some features, including having it store my search history for my own retrieval. However I do not have the option of opting out of their overall logging: my queries, my visits, my time of date, all go into aggregate features like Google Trends, their stats on when people are searching, the data they report to advertisers on impressions vs. clicks, etc.
I don't believe there's any web site in the world, for example, that doesn't log visitor counts, IP addresses, time of day, queries run, etc. (Excepting privacy proxy sites run specifically to NOT track those things.)
We're willing to consider your suggestion, and giving you more control over what goes into what aggregates. But I'd really appreciate your stepping back and thinking over your objections. What, really, is the cost to you of our aggregating massive amounts of data into individually anonymous, but collectively useful/interesting data?
Sure, popular highlights are a little surprising when you first see them appear in a book. But I've come to find the data incredibly interesting, and even fun. When reading and seeing a popular highlight 'on the horizon' in my peripheral vision, I get a sense of anticipation for "the good stuff." When paging through a book quickly I find the popular highlights an easy way to get the key point / insight of a section.
And if you don't like them, they're easy to turn off forever.
Other than a "don't track me!" instinct (I have it too!), what is the actual harm of this collective data mining?
And can you appreciate the benefits that we believe will accrue to you and all the users? Like our being able to remove books few people read from collections, reducing prices or reallocating those funds to other content / tools used by more users. Like identifying areas of interest so we can offer more resources in that area. Like improving search results to show "smarter" contexts for hits. (Your hit surrounded not by x words to the left and right, but the most highlighted fragment containing your hit.)
Again, we're listening to the feedback and will make whatever changes are necessary to keep our user base happy -- we aren't trying to antagonize anyone -- but I'd like to make sure we've discussed both the good and the bad about this.
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
Again, we're listening to the feedback and will make whatever changes are necessary to keep our user base happy -- we aren't trying to antagonize anyone -- but I'd like to make sure we've discussed both the good and the bad about this.
Logos already has an 'opt-out', called "Send Feedback". I believe that people who have "Send Feedback" to "none" should not have their data aggregated in this way. I am happy to send feedback, and will continue to do so, but it seems to me that this sort of issue is exactly what that option is for.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Reading Word Biblical Commentary on Abraham, and finding this handy. Will be using this more in the future, to find the highlights.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
0 -
Interesting. Bob, any chance you could elaborate a bit more? Perhaps give us examples of what this data gathering has allowed us to have as features/tools already? How this practice has already had an impact on Logos research and how that research has helped us, the end user.
I find this facinating and can certainly see how gathering certain information from users habits/usage could help with R&D at Logos.
My questions are not limited to the highlight features Btw.
As for me, I have no issue with Logos getting the info from my usage, I have nothing to hide. As long as my private data like Paying bills and such are not at risk through some hacker using Logos as a doorway, then I'm fine with it.
However, if getting this info is slowing the performance of Logos on my computer , then I would ask a "rethink" until Logos has dealt with more of the speed memory leak issues.
I do wish crash reports could be sent directly to Logos "when they happen" instead of having to post logs.
Thankfully, I have not been having those in 5 ( Yea!!)
Again, a bit more info and some real life examples of how this is beneficial , might be helpful to all.
Blessings and , Thanks for your time.
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:Frank Sauer said:
So if this is the case as many have expressed allow us to opt out. Many websites and software companies have already had the courts rule in the users favor in these areas. Think Apple & Google with tracking "anonymous" locations, web usage, etc
You can opt out, by running the software without an Internet connection. But it sounds like you're really asking for is the ability to opt-out at a more fine-grained level: you want this Internet-enabled function, but not that one.
Different companies support different levels of tracking / opt-out. Google lets me choose to use the search engine "logged out", at the price of losing some features, including having it store my search history for my own retrieval. However I do not have the option of opting out of their overall logging: my queries, my visits, my time of date, all go into aggregate features like Google Trends, their stats on when people are searching, the data they report to advertisers on impressions vs. clicks, etc.
I don't believe there's any web site in the world, for example, that doesn't log visitor counts, IP addresses, time of day, queries run, etc. (Excepting privacy proxy sites run specifically to NOT track those things.)
We're willing to consider your suggestion, and giving you more control over what goes into what aggregates. But I'd really appreciate your stepping back and thinking over your objections. What, really, is the cost to you of our aggregating massive amounts of data into individually anonymous, but collectively useful/interesting data?
Sure, popular highlights are a little surprising when you first see them appear in a book. But I've come to find the data incredibly interesting, and even fun. When reading and seeing a popular highlight 'on the horizon' in my peripheral vision, I get a sense of anticipation for "the good stuff." When paging through a book quickly I find the popular highlights an easy way to get the key point / insight of a section.
And if you don't like them, they're easy to turn off forever.
Other than a "don't track me!" instinct (I have it too!), what is the actual harm of this collective data mining?
And can you appreciate the benefits that we believe will accrue to you and all the users? Like our being able to remove books few people read from collections, reducing prices or reallocating those funds to other content / tools used by more users. Like identifying areas of interest so we can offer more resources in that area. Like improving search results to show "smarter" contexts for hits. (Your hit surrounded not by x words to the left and right, but the most highlighted fragment containing your hit.)
Again, we're listening to the feedback and will make whatever changes are necessary to keep our user base happy -- we aren't trying to antagonize anyone -- but I'd like to make sure we've discussed both the good and the bad about this.
Bob,
My issue is more with user choice. Personally until I saw the negativity toward users concerned about it, I was quite indifferent. However after getting the catchall Logos response of turn off internet and lose functionality that goes with it when I asked about an opt out feature, it became a bigger issue.
The point is for some the forced community input will be fine, for others it will be unwanted and they should be able to block it without repercussion. For some the data collection will be no big deal, for others it will be and again it should be open to an opt out without repercussion. Simple fact not everyone wants the "Faithlife" community version of Bible Study in their Logos software and there should be a no strings attached opt out - so discussing the good and bad comes down to what bad at all exists in allowing users to opt out - it is only good for the user.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
0 -
Dave Hooton said:
There should be an option in Settings that says "Use community information" Yes/No and No means I don't get the information and it doesn't affect any features in Library or resources.
[Y]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Frank Sauer said:
My issue is more with user choice. Personally until I saw the negativity toward users concerned about it, I was quite indifferent. However after getting the catchall Logos response of turn off internet and lose functionality that goes with it when I asked about an opt out feature, it became a bigger issue.
[Y] +1
0 -
Dave Hooton:There should be an option in Settings that says "Use community information" Yes/No and No means I don't get the information and it doesn't affect any features in Library or resources.
Oh yeah, I get distracted enough and too easily!! [:S]danp0
