BWS: some observations and suggestions

Observed in Logos 5 (probably true for Logos 4).

In the Lemma section (of a Hebrew or Greek word), the mini column chart shows the number of times this original language word occurs in a manuscript used by an english bible (OT/NT). I have noticed that this number in the chart does not always agree with the number in the chart of the Translation section. An example is shown below. What causes the discrepancy?

Click on the column chart in the Lemma section and it launches the Graph Bible Search Results. I now see that this Graph tool is based on how many times the language word occurs in the interlinear or manuscript supported by my highest prioritized bible (NIV):

Note1: In the Graph Bible Search Results, I am not able to select another bible that has the language interlinear; it is locked to the highest prioritized bible that has the corresponding interlinear, NIV in my example. I would have to change my bible priority (in Library tool) to reflect a different bible in the Graph tool.

Note2: In the Translation section, the mini column chart shows the number of times the language word occurs in the interlinear or manuscript of the bible that I used to launch the BWS (in example, ESV). The number of occurrences is NOT based on my highest prioritized bible with corresponding interlinear. If I launch the BWS (using a Greek or Hebrew word) from my highest prioritized bible, then the mini column charts will agree.

Suggestion 1: The mini column chart in the Lemma
section should be based on the bible that I use to launch the BWS. This should make both mini column charts agree in the number of word occurrences.

Suggestion 2: if, for whatever reason, the mini column chart needs to be based on my highest prioritized bible having the corresponding language interlinear, then allow the user to select another bible in the Graph Bible Search Results

Maybe I am not understanding the relationship between a mini column chart and the Graph tool. Does Logos have a reason for why the BWS and Graph tools behave this way?

Comments?

David

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Comments

Dave Hooton

Suggestion 1: The mini column chart in the Lemma
section should be based on the bible that I use to launch the BWS. This should make both mini column charts agree in the number of word occurrences.

I would agree if it is a RI because the Translation section has to be an RI. Logos' thinking would be that you always know the result in your prioritized RI.

Suggestion 2: if, for whatever reason, the mini column chart needs to be based on my highest prioritized bible having the corresponding language interlinear, then allow the user to select another bible in the Graph Bible Search Results

The Prioritized RI would have to be used in both sections if source was a non-RI, or you manually input the word. This keeps the results in sync; which is what you wanted from Suggestion 1.

Mark Barnes

I have noticed that this number in the chart does not always agree with the number in the chart of the Translation section. An example is shown below. What causes the discrepancy?

I'm struggling to find any NT that only has 316 results for logos. Do you know what resource is producing those results?

<edit>That's a bug. The spark graph for NIV84 and NIV2011 shows the number of verses, nor the number of occurrences.</edit>

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435457#Comment_435457

I'm struggling to find any NT that only has 316 results for logos.

NIV 2011/NIV 84 actually have 330 results in 318 verses. But NIV 2011 translates only 316 of these and this is the basis of results quoted in the Lemma and Translation sections.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435590#Comment_435590

But NIV 2011 translates only 316 of these and this is the basis of results quoted in the Lemma and Translation sections.

Correct and explained in detail on the other thread. Note that verses containing the lemma is the count actually shown in the bar graph.

MJ. Smith

What causes the discrepancy?

This is explained on the other thread. The count is the number of verses that include the lemma in the Lemma section. In all the translation style sections, the count is the number of verse in which the lemma has a specific translation. If the lemma is translated by two different words in a single verse, this results in double counting.

MJ. Smith

Note1: In the Graph Bible Search Results, I am not able to select another bible that has the language interlinear; it is locked to the highest prioritized bible that has the corresponding interlinear, NIV in my example. I would have to change my bible priority (in Library tool) to reflect a different bible in the Graph tool.

This is at least partially because the Graph Bible Search results are based on a lemma search you did not run. Without the Search open, there is no way to modify the Search.

Does Logos have a reason for why the BWS and Graph tools behave this way?

See the other thread or the Q&A in the wiki for the explanation of their behavior. I think with the modifications I've made this evening, it's all there.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435607#Comment_435607

Correct and explained in detail on the other thread.

which other thread?

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435702#Comment_435702

which other thread?

This one: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/61455.aspx (should have linked it higher up, sorry)

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435730#Comment_435730

Thanks Mark, I should have sought the link out but I was in a hurry. Somehow much of my time was spent trying to balance counts and time ran out.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435611#Comment_435611

This is explained on the other thread. The count is the number of verses that include the lemma in the Lemma section. In all the translation style sections, the count is the number of verse in which the lemma has a specific translation. If the lemma is translated by two different words in a single verse, this results in double counting.

The count is not a number of verses. It is number of occurrences that are translated in the RI. See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61455/436024.aspx#436024

e.g. NRSV - not translated at Lk 23.9, Act 20.24. Therefore 330 - 2 = 328 count in Lemma section

ESV - not translated at Phil 4.15. Therefore 330 - 1 = 329 count in BWS.

NIV - not translated 14x. Therefore 330 - 14 = 316 count in BWS

NIV84 - not translated 12x. Therefore 330 - 12 = 318 count in BWS

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/436031#Comment_436031

I agree with you that the RI omits cases that are not translated. You are correct that I misspoke on the counts ... go with what I wrote in balancing not what I said off the top of my head.

David Bailey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/436031#Comment_436031

This is explained on the other thread. The count is the number of verses that include the lemma in the Lemma section. In all the translation style sections, the count is the number of verse in which the lemma has a specific translation. If the lemma is translated by two different words in a single verse, this results in double counting.

The count is not a number of verses. It is number of occurrences that are translated in the RI. See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61455/436024.aspx#436024

e.g. NRSV - not translated at Lk 23.9, Act 20.24. Therefore 330 - 2 = 328 count in Lemma section

        ESV - not translated at Phil 4.15. Therefore 330 - 1 = 329 count in BWS.

      NIV - not translated 14x. Therefore 330 - 14 = 316 count in BWS

        NIV84 - not translated 12x. Therefore 330 - 12 = 318 count in BWS

I'm thinking the same. For the histogram (mini column chart) in the Lemma section, is the software counting strictly the occurrence of the Greek lemma (exact match of logos)?

David

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/436132#Comment_436132

I'm thinking the same. For the histogram (mini column chart) in the Lemma section, is the software counting strictly the occurrence of the Greek lemma (exact match of logos)?

The column chart from both Lemma and Translation sections repeats a strict Search count (330) ...misleading.