Social / community features in Logos 5 and beyond
Comments
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I see, well I would like to be in-between the denominations Anabaptists and RCC, and be able to say also that I'm critical.
When it comes to citing books, You can see from: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/18568/424963.aspx#424963 that I would really like the Jerusalem Bible from the second half of the '60ies, the 2004 3rd edition British English Good News Translation and the Biblia Sacra iuxta vulgatum versionem. 5th Ed. Other than that I'm pretty content with what Bibles are offered in Logos - it's just that I would rather see that some English Bible would be dropped from the base-packages, for example either The Message (Complete OT/NT), The New Century Version or the Holman Christian Standard Bible (Holman CSB).Bob Pritchett said:Our hope is that we get enough data -- using voluntarily provided info like "denomination", and sales data like "what books you specifically purchased" -- that we could give you a star rating from "users like you", and weight the community tags in the same way. So a commentary set labeled 5 stars and tagged "reliable" by users of one denomination, say, would be reported that way to others of that denomination who bought similar resources, but might be rated "3 stars" and tagged "conservative" to users of another denomination who had purchased different resources. (The rating would probably differ, but you'd probably see all the tags -- they'd just be different sizes for different users.)
I'm looking forward to the new specialized base-packages that are perhaps comming at some point (like You said in http://community.logos.com/forums/p/60280/430475.aspx#430475). I wonder if You could make one for Anabaptists, and/or one with especially much critical scholarship?
Disclosure!
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48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Dominick Sela said:Rene Atchley said:
I see no such offer of compensation from Logos for years worth of data...not even a discount.
I hope you don't use ANY search engine on the Internet - they grab a lot more data about what you are doing than Logos does! Or I hope you don't use any Microsoft products....or Adobe....or browser...or any of a number of other "non community" products. People think only Facebook, Twitter, Flickr and the like are grabbing data, but that's grossly inaccurate. Oh and don't forget your TV viewing preferences, unless you only do over the air (and they collect data too, just not as much), DirecTV, Comcast, and all the other satellite/cable providers are collecting huge amounts of preference/usage data.
The only way to avoid this, as Bob says, is turn off the Internet. It's a connected world now.
Honestly to argue that because everyone else does it justifies Logos doing it (especially as a "christian" company) seems rather a weak argument to me. The discussion that Mr. Pritchard has opened is not about all the tangential debates regarding every drop of personal information being taken from me on a daily basis. It is about a product that appears increasingly to be heavy handed in its demands that I conform to Mr. Pritchard's vision of proper computer use at increasing high prices with a product that data mines every stroke (apparently) that is done in the program. While it is admirable that there is a turn off switch (if that is what it is) in the product can we be assure that a) it works and b) it wont be eliminated in a future release and c) that I can trust a large corporation to properly handle private use of their product. Surely what the books that are bought through Logos would never get back to denominational leaders so that a concern about "un-godly" thoughts might be sneaking into their pastors...that would never happen... you know just trust Logos and their corporate partners.
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Jon said:
You're in control of what programs can do on your computer — in many cases you may lose functionality if you block the connections, but that's your prerogative...
For everyone else, thanks for contributing to my reading experience just by the simple act of highlighting your books! I've been loving the community highlights as I've been reading a couple of books; the net effect of many users insight in picking out the key insight on a page, or something that has been particularly well articulated is excellent! Thankyou
Peace, Jon! What a very pleasant post! Indeed! It is I who should thank you! *smile* Of course I agree with you! [:D]
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Jon,
I checked out the site for the software you recommended. Looks promising. To be honest, though, I'm like most here probably in that I'm not tremendously computer savy in this area... and I need to be. The screen shot is helpful... but how difficult is this for a knucklehead user like myself? I start seeing port numbers and such and my eyes start to glaze over. I'm afraid of blocking something that must not be blocked, and allowing something that really SHOULD be blocked. Any comments re: how easy it may be to learn this software?
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Samuel Clough said:Alexander said:
I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue. I'm conservative when it comes to my information being shared or published and yet I do not have any issue at all with Logos using my data within the cloud. I understand both sides of the argument very well, I'm just wondering if this is more of a perception issue than an understanding of how this type of data is shared/used.
I think that's over simplification. Yes, younger users tends to have less privacy concerns, but that's because they've grown up in a world of eroding privacy. They don't know a world where it's any other way. They have been sold the benefits of it without understanding the negatives.
While there are advantages to data collection, it also has some real downsides. It's reasonable, since many of us are primarily paying to own a collection of resources on our desktop, for Logos to provide a way to opt out of such deep data collection. All of us aren't convinced the benefits of being tracked are worth it. It's fine if people thing differently. If Logos goes all in on this without an opt out, I know it would force me to serious consider moving to alternative Bible software. Just the conversation makes me think twice about investing significantly in more resources until it's clear what the direction of all this will be. Not trying to threaten anything, just express the value of a true desktop application that lets me opt out of things that I don't want to participate in.
Simplification? Yes. Overly so? I don't think so. I am younger but, as my post stated, am conservative about my private information and I understand both the pro's and con's of both. In broad brush strokes, I have found that those who are born post techno boom have less of a concern about the issue than others. There are some in both groups that don't line up perfectly but I would suggest the generalization holds true for most folks. As others have pointed out, if you are really concerned with data mining you are going to either have to make Fort Knox your network provider or simply drop off the net. Again, my 2c's.
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Sometimes I think that folks are too
paranoid about there online privacy.I mean it's not like people lose
their jobs, or marriages by what they post online. And it's not like
some Christians are hunted down and imprisoned or killed for what the
authorities have discovered on the internet..."As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Thank you for all the thoughtful feedback. Some further thoughts:
We don't plan to take away the ability to read books offline without the Internet, and we haven't disabled Logos 3 or 4 or your ability to use older versions of the software. Some future new features, though, will need the web -- the data will be there, and won't fit locally.
If you have information / data / comments that would cause enormous damage if disclosed, or risk your freedom in an oppressive country, do not put it on a computer. I don't mean don't put it in Logos, I mean don't put it in digital form, on any device, anywhere. There's no adequate digital protection, and you should plan for everything you type to be disclosed. Someday people will, if only for idle entertainment purposes, write software that you can plug a thrown-away laptop or hard drive into and upload it all to a massive search engine in the cloud. This isn't a "Logos-specific" issue. This is common sense. And your biggest risk isn't even our server being hacked -- it's a trojan, a virus, a key-logger, losing your smart phone, walking away from your logged-in computer someone else has physical access to, etc.
The "I have confidential stuff in my notes" theme is a red herring. If it's that secret, you shouldn't type it into your computer -- in any application. Just ask the now-former director of the CIA -- someone who ought to know how to keep a secret. You don't know enough / can't do enough to keep a digital secret.
Again, I'm not saying this as an excuse for why you shouldn't care about Logos' cloud-based backup, statistical data mining, etc. This is just general good advice.
With that said, we are listening and will improve our controls here. But I do think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill; if you use a credit card, shop in a store with surveillance cameras, have a driver's license and car with a license plate, have a bank account, use the Internet, or visit any licensed healthcare professional, you are being tracked far more, about far more personal things than anything Logos is doing. This isn't an excuse that we shouldn't care about your concerns -- we should -- but I feel like threats to stop doing business with us over this are a little unreasonable. We're at least talking to you about it! Your grocery store didn't ask you before data mining transactions (even cash transactions!) to learn that people who buy peanut butter also buy jelly and bread, and you probably didn't care.
In other words, unless you used a multi-tier anonymizing VPN system to post your objections here, (or, better yet, walked up to me on the street wearing dark glasses and a hat without carrying a cell phone and whispered them in my ear), you've got bigger privacy issues to worry about than Logos... :-)
One more future feature that touches on this:
We hope to offer some "all you can eat" pricing models in the future. Much like Netflix, where for $9 you can watch an unlimited number of videos each month from a large pool of content, we'd like to offer a subset of our books in an "all you can read" subscription. To pay royalties to the copyright holders, though, we need to know how much each resource is used. (Copyright holders want to know that if their content is the most used, they get the most royalties. Books in the pool that don't get read in a month don't get royalties that month.) We need some stats collection in order to deliver this feature, and you couldn't participate in this without your stats being recorded.
P.S. Please don't walk up and whisper at me on the street. It would freak me out... :-)
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EmileB said:
how difficult is this for a knucklehead user like myself?
Hi Emile, it is not as complicated as it looks from that screenshot which is the main configuration window. In practice, how it works is that when a program on your computer tries to make a connection to the internet it pops up an alert like this:
It sounds like it would be very useful in your context, with your security concerns. At first when you install it you'll get lots of alerts popping up as you use all your normal programs and discover that they frequently connect online for all sorts of reasons. After that initial stage (of setting Forever Allow or Deny — it takes this input and generates the rules you see on the screen shot in my previous post) it will only popup for something that's new and doesn't match any existing rules. If something pops up thats unexpected it could well be some kind of malware/trojan/logger and you can block it from phoning home.
Edit: Bob, your example of normal shops data mining reminded me of this article (better not go to a department store if you're worried about privacy)
:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/0 -
EmileB said:
But please, allow the rest of us to choose whether we want your observations/highlights/comments, two cents or whatever on our screens. I didn't pay for your wisdom, as profound as it might be :-)
So as far as what Bob is talking about... I don't really have a problem with it for those who want it. But do please allow us the fine controls for opting out. There are practical reasons for some of us, philosophical reasons for some of us, ethical concerns for others... but beyond that...
... a gentleman always asks.
It is a token of respect... a sign of a cultured and well-mannered man, in a world that seems to have forgotten what that means.
Why not err on the side of being considerate? You can thereby avoid giving unnecessary offense, for what seems to be very little effort.
After all, it's just two little words:
"May I?"
Best wishes, as always, Bob!! Love you guys!!!
Emile,
Thanks for reminding us of the basics of civilization, as well as alerting us to the perils many Logos users around the world face.
I don't question the motives of Logos. I think that Logos wants to produce the best product and study system for its customers. I think it is too easy to get bogged down in all the technical configurations and forget the big picture at times.
Logos does need to remember who's the boss. It is ultimately the customers' choice. Logos needs to remember its servant character. I think that Bob's fairly frequent posts and inquiries show that he does value the input of his customers.
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The issue at hand isn't whether individuals should have the right to privacy in a world eternally digitized. Rather, it is about paying a company for a product/service that implies that loose privacy boundaries are just what it means to do business and live in the world today. It is sort of like saying why shouldn't the govt. have access to all of our financial records if we have nothing to hide. If the future with Logos is to give more free data then the answer is to give Logos less of everything...which for me is to pay someone to have my rented license at this point. I wonder if Logos is ever bought by another E-book company...say Amazon...if we will all be setting around talking about how Red Herrings are nothing more than a bad bird experience.
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The one Jon shows is pretty straight-forward and easy. Mine also allows access denial by direction, and also within the PC itself.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Dear Bob
Thank you again for stepping in and providing more feedback and comments on this topic. I do have some comments:
Bob Pritchett said:When you use a product that's delivered via a web site, there are certain assumptions you can safely make about what's being stored on the web servers: everything.
Every click, page view, search, IP address, time of visit, and bit of information typed into the site is stored. At a minimum, the standard "web log" functionality of the web server (standard since the first days of the web) is recording most of this info for every page view
There really needs to be made clear the distinction between information such as logs which are recorded on web servers as a result of people browsing a website anonymously where there is usually, and rightly, no Personally Identifying Information (PII) being (able to be) stored; and information as to what users do on their own computers which, obviously, will include Personally Identifying Information.
Logos has, if not the right, then the ability, as the server system belongs to them, to collect information about how I interact with Logos' web servers via a web browser. It does not — automatically — have the right to reach into my computer and collect private and personally identifying information of any manner.
Bob Pritchett said:and, since the entire site/application is on a remote server, all the information you type / enter is stored there, too.
I'm sorry, but that simply is not factually correct. Who in your organisation is telling you that? Logos 5 is not a web application — as in a HTML web browser based application, it is not a 'Software as a service (SaaS) application — it is a local desktop (runs on user's computer) application — which is web enabled. There is a very big, and significant, difference.
What… are you saying that the entire Logos 5 application runs on your servers and every keystroke I enter is recorded on your servers? Not correct. Logos may be trapping and recording everything I do and sending it to Logos servers (and this is something I want clarified by Logos) but it is not doing it via a SaaS design, it is (is it?) doing it via saving everything locally and 'phoning home'.
Bob Pritchett said:But it seems people are sometimes surprised, and even upset, to find out that desktop applications are now recording and reporting similar information.
You simply cannot equate anonymous web browsing with private use of a computer, it surprises and alarms me that you make statements like that. Again...
Logos has, if not the right, then the ability as the server system belongs to them, to collect information about how I interact with Logos' web servers. It does not — automatically — have the right to reach into my computer and collect private and personally identifying information of any manner.
I am going to give you a fictional example (obviously this does not refer to you in reality):
Let's say that someone, from your home Internet IP address, browses an online sex store and orders a sex toy. Obviously the web server is going to record in its logs the fact that a computer — at your Internet IP address — has accessed the server. The person browsing can't do anything about that, anyway the information has no PII information stored in it. That is very different from the purchased sex toy having some recording device surreptitiously embedded in it which records all information about — how it is used, and how often, and when (to improve the product naturally) and which then uploads that information back to the manufacturer along with using WiFi location sensing to do geolocation to cross-reference it back to a purchaser. Is that OK? The company simply wants to improve their product, they have a right to so don't they?
I believe we would all obviously say no — and I use this (shocking to Christians) example to deliberately shock us all out of complacency on the whole question of privacy. Also BTW, the person browsing the sex store from your Internet IP address… it was the next door neighbour who had hacked into your WiFi.
Bob Pritchett said:As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)
Why? Once someone has downloaded (or used a DVD) and installed Logos 5 and is using it, why must it phone home? What functionality is limited — apart from community features — in their use of the product if the application does not have a constantly open Internet link to Logos' servers? Logos 5 is not an… online gaming program… which must have a constantly connected Internet connection to function. It is a Bible study program (with great features - no one is saying otherwise) for, primarily, personal Bible study. Put another way, if a person's Internet connection went down they could still use Logos 5 for the purpose for which it is marketed, sold and purchased — that is Bible study. However if the software constantly crashes then it is not fulfilling the purpose for which it is marketed, sold and purchased.
Also, again, there needs to be made the distinction between the application doing (beneficial to the user) things like:
a) checking for new software/resources on startup; saving documents and layouts
versus
b) constantly uploading (in real time?) everything the user is doing, extending now beyond statistical use, to specific informational use.
Option a) simply requires occasional Internet connections between the application and Logos servers.
On the point of the Logos software gathering information and Internet use can I please have clarification between these two settings:
1) Send Feedback — and within feedback the differences between All; Anonymous & None
2) Use Internet — especially what does "various features" mean?
It seems to me that you are inextricably linking the two options — can't, aren't they already, mutually exclusive? I would see the information gathering part being in 'feedback' and the user benefit functions being in 'Use Internet'.
Also, with respect to where information is anonymised, if it is, is it anonymised on the Logos user's machine or once it gets to Logos' servers?
What impact does all this Internet connectivity to Logos' servers have to the users' Logos application? I ask this because in the process of helping fellow Logos users on the forum and looking at log files I see a number of connection issues to Logos servers (not clear if it is on the users' side or Logos side) resulting sometimes even in the application crashing — which is obviously not desirable or welcome.
I sort of get the feeling that you are saying, to paraphrase, "well we are already gathering, and using, heaps of private and personal information on you already — you'll just have to live with it." Actually we don't.
Logos really needs to declare where it stands with respect to user privacy issues:
— on the side of entities like Google / Facebook / online advertisers whose stated aim is to gather as much Personally Identifying Information on people as possible, often illegally, or
— on the side of entities who have a basic principle & position of respecting people's privacy and using those principles as a 'guiding light' when deciding how to interact with and use customers' personal information.
Also Logos needs to be very careful with its' privacy position with regards European users. The European Union is not as lax as the US with respect to various aspects of computers, the Internet and privacy — as companies like Google and Facebook have found out to their financial discomfort.
Bob Pritchett said:and we follow best practices like not storing your password at all. (That's why our CS reps can't tell or email your password, only reset it -- we literally don't have access to it.)
Logos has to store something on passwords, otherwise users could not log in. What I believe you mean is, following common computing practices, you don't store the actual password string but a hash of the password — just to be precise.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Thomas Jackson said:
Again, I do respect you and a few others who post on this forum, but I would like to keep my version of Logos independent of forum posters philosophical inputs.
Isn't this *your* philosophical input? Logos is not going to create a version of the software for each relatively unique philosophical preference. Bob has clearly articulated his philosophical premises for upcoming versions of Logos - nearly ubiquitous connectedness with very few and coarse-grained exceptions.
Donnie
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[Y] well put!Bob Pritchett said:Thank you for all the thoughtful feedback. Some further thoughts:
We don't plan to take away the ability to read books offline without the Internet, and we haven't disabled Logos 3 or 4 or your ability to use older versions of the software. Some future new features, though, will need the web -- the data will be there, and won't fit locally.
If you have information / data / comments that would cause enormous damage if disclosed, or risk your freedom in an oppressive country, do not put it on a computer. I don't mean don't put it in Logos, I mean don't put it in digital form, on any device, anywhere. There's no adequate digital protection, and you should plan for everything you type to be disclosed. Someday people will, if only for idle entertainment purposes, write software that you can plug a thrown-away laptop or hard drive into and upload it all to a massive search engine in the cloud. This isn't a "Logos-specific" issue. This is common sense. And your biggest risk isn't even our server being hacked -- it's a trojan, a virus, a key-logger, losing your smart phone, walking away from your logged-in computer someone else has physical access to, etc.
The "I have confidential stuff in my notes" theme is a red herring. If it's that secret, you shouldn't type it into your computer -- in any application. Just ask the now-former director of the CIA -- someone who ought to know how to keep a secret. You don't know enough / can't do enough to keep a digital secret.
Again, I'm not saying this as an excuse for why you shouldn't care about Logos' cloud-based backup, statistical data mining, etc. This is just general good advice.
With that said, we are listening and will improve our controls here. But I do think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill; if you use a credit card, shop in a store with surveillance cameras, have a driver's license and car with a license plate, have a bank account, use the Internet, or visit any licensed healthcare professional, you are being tracked far more, about far more personal things than anything Logos is doing. This isn't an excuse that we shouldn't care about your concerns -- we should -- but I feel like threats to stop doing business with us over this are a little unreasonable. We're at least talking to you about it! Your grocery store didn't ask you before data mining transactions (even cash transactions!) to learn that people who buy peanut butter also buy jelly and bread, and you probably didn't care.
In other words, unless you used a multi-tier anonymizing VPN system to post your objections here, (or, better yet, walked up to me on the street wearing dark glasses and a hat without carrying a cell phone and whispered them in my ear), you've got bigger privacy issues to worry about than Logos... :-)
One more future feature that touches on this:
We hope to offer some "all you can eat" pricing models in the future. Much like Netflix, where for $9 you can watch an unlimited number of videos each month from a large pool of content, we'd like to offer a subset of our books in an "all you can read" subscription. To pay royalties to the copyright holders, though, we need to know how much each resource is used. (Copyright holders want to know that if their content is the most used, they get the most royalties. Books in the pool that don't get read in a month don't get royalties that month.) We need some stats collection in order to deliver this feature, and you couldn't participate in this without your stats being recorded.
P.S. Please don't walk up and whisper at me on the street. It would freak me out... :-)
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Patrick S. said:
There really needs to be made clear the distinction between information such as logs which are recorded on web servers as a result of people browsing a website anonymously where there is usually, and rightly, no Personally Identifying Information (PII) being (able to be) stored; and information as to what users do on their own computers which, obviously, will include Personally Identifying Information.
Your premise isn't completely accurate. Depending on the authentication scheme and the configured log record format for the web site in question, an authenticated user's ID is typically logged in a normal web access log.
Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:Patrick S. said:
There really needs to be made clear the distinction between information such as logs which are recorded on web servers as a result of people browsing a website anonymously where there is usually, and rightly, no Personally Identifying Information (PII) being (able to be) stored; and information as to what users do on their own computers which, obviously, will include Personally Identifying Information.
Your premise isn't completely accurate. Depending on the authentication scheme and the configured log record format for the web site in question, an authenticated user's ID is typically logged in a normal web access log.
Donnie
Yes, perhaps if a person is logged into a server, but that is, for the purposes of this discussion, a side point.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Bob Pritchett said:
As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)
I wished this was more than just a 'concession'. I wished it was part of the vision of Logos.
For some of those who are taking the Gospel out, they're probably about 10 years behind the rest of the world internet connectivity wise. The people who go to places like this accept it as part of the job. It's what they sign up for and in general they don't expect the world to cater to them. They know they often straddle two worlds in many areas... one of them being technology. They know the developed world can't wait up for them and would not expect a company like Logos to hurt its ability to innovate and to bless the church at large. However, it would be nice if it would be than a concession. It would be nice if it was a vision to do what it can without hurting its business model to support those in these sorts of situations.
When big resource updates in the early days of Logos 4 were being rolled out on things like the interlinears, it killed us. The problem was that the software worked just fine, but if you needed to buy a small resource of 20mb, you could not do so until you downloaded all the updates. It was physically impossible to leave your computer hooked up for enough weeks and months to get them all. Myself and a few others pleaded for regular DVD media updates. After time we got updates, but the weeks it took after they were released to get out here was an eternity when all we needed was a 20mb book. Am I complaining? No, it is a cost that comes with the job.
In the plus column, even in Africa we have seen significant changes in the last five years with internet connectivity. Huge changes. This will continue to happen and some of this is becoming less and less of an issue. Still problematic, still expensive, still lots of places you can't get connectivity, but to be able to get the latest resources for a project is so worth it. So I would not want to go back. (Even while typing this post, my internet connection has completely failed. I'll have to copy and save my message offline for posting later) I am finding that I run Logos 5 more and more offline because I think it gets a bit stroppy when it has a number of failed attempts to sync with our poor internet.
On that note, the only thing I would plea is that as long as Logos sees the possibility to continue to extend this concession to the missionary with the solar panel, that it pays close attention to the crash logs they submit from these scenarios to test Logos concepts and software code. If you run a private beta, ask a few to participate. What works well in the lab and in the US, is totally different here. I would argue if your code will hold up here, it will hold up anywhere...
One thing for the record though... we don't use solar panels. We use mice powered generators and we're still using Intel 8088 turbo processors with MSDOS 5.0. We just got a 2400 baud modem and are loving the new speeds over the old 300 we just retired!
Seriously, God bless you guys and all that you are doing for the church. You are popularizing Bible software and this can only be a good thing for all. We certainly have some cool tools for Bible study and I am deep gratitude for the ability to carry a reference library with me. It is one of the most precious things I own.
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Bob,
It seems that I did not make myself clear as to my objection to the ‘Social / community’ direction Logos is planning. My objection has nothing to do with privacy concerns. I did not purchase Logos for social / community use. I will not debate my position because I used my own resources when I purchased this product. If Logos plans to offer the ‘Social / community’ features in a Logos 6 or higher version, I have no objections to the new direction. I will, however, reconsider future purchases until I can get a clearer understanding as to how the new direction will be implemented.
Thomas
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Alexander said:
I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue.
This may be an aspect of it but I also think that there are 2 distinct issues here:
- The analysis of our data by Logos, here I tend to agree that there is no violation of my privacy and accept that this may lead to useful ideas and help others. So in principle I'm OK with this as long as the tasks that do the data collection on my PC are designed so that they do not interfere with the programs performance and responsiveness.
- The access, storage and presentation of this data, here I personally want a global default set to off and I'm waiting to be able to turn off the community ratings and tags. Might be nice to know that it is there if I want it but I really do not want this data stored on my PC or being referenced on line in a way that slows my PC down.
This may be an age thing but as far as I am concerned there would need to be clearly documented and agreed standards for the community rating and tag features before I would consider using them. Even if we set aside the denominational/theological challenges of this star ratings, whilst widely used, are incredibly subjective and tagging is incredibly personal and difficult to agree on. Get a group of us in a room for an hour and we would struggle to decide whether the correct format for the tag for a book that we have read is:
- Read
- READ
- read
- Some other equivalent i.e. Completed, Finished, etc.
- An abbreviation i.e. Rd, RD, rd, etc.
In a sensible sized group where we were committed to working together we might get an agreement but finding a system that works for 1 million users will be difficult.
I appreciate the vision that Bob has for the Logos community but sat here in the UK using Logos to help me pastor a Church here I really don't want the distraction that comes from a set of information that is of dubious value to me. I appreciate that this might be harsh, and possibly a bit 'spiritual' sounding, but I'm really not interested in what other people think is interesting I'm more concerned in finding what God says is interesting and I personally do not need a lot of other voices crowding His out.
As I have said, take my data, make it anonymous, and display it for those who want it but PLEASE let me turn off globally what I see as a pointless distraction.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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'the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection' is just one of Bob's playful exagerations. But his business model will be interesting.
We live in a fairly upscale community and most of my 'rich-friends' are backing off their monthly costs ... TV, phone, internet. Not sure why since the cost isn't that big a deal. We already moved to pre-paid phones, and now are dumping our WIFI supplier. The only impediment was Logos and Bob's helped out with that with his missive yesterday.
I'm no prophetess (we're from Ephesus, not Corinth of course), but looks to me big whopper downloads constantly isn't going to last for long. What with transmission companies raising their prices as quickly as possible.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Please clarify.
Am I at anytime in the future going to lose the ability to run passage guides, exegetical guides, etc. when off line? Is the desktop application going to become another version of the (nearly useless when offline) mobile app?
I hope I don't sound rude or ungrateful, but If that's the case, then it's not the product I thought I was buying and I need to reconsider my purchases. I have no problem with future features using/requiring the internet-it is an excellent tool-use it! I have no problem with monitoring my usage-I'll plug in a web cam if you like! (However, I do think it extremely inconsiderate to force it on others who view it differently). But I would be extremely disappointed to see functionality that I currently have go away when unable to connect to the internet. That's not the product I wanted.
Would you please clarify this issue?
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There is also the consideration of the
needs of the minority. If statistics are gathered to see what is done
most in Logos, then by effect what is done least is considered of
less importance in development (regardless of how important it is to
some users).We have already seen this with the
total abandonment of Windows XP platform development."As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Graham Owen said:Alexander said:
I'm really wondering if this is not a generational issue.
This may be an aspect of it but I also think that there are 2 distinct issues here:
- The analysis of our data by Logos, here I tend to agree that there is no violation of my privacy and accept that this may lead to useful ideas and help others. So in principle I'm OK with this as long as the tasks that do the data collection on my PC are designed so that they do not interfere with the programs performance and responsiveness.
- The access, storage and presentation of this data, here I personally want a global default set to off and I'm waiting to be able to turn off the community ratings and tags. Might be nice to know that it is there if I want it but I really do not want this data stored on my PC or being referenced on line in a way that slows my PC down.
This may be an age thing but as far as I am concerned there would need to be clearly documented and agreed standards for the community rating and tag features before I would consider using them. Even if we set aside the denominational/theological challenges of this star ratings, whilst widely used, are incredibly subjective and tagging is incredibly personal and difficult to agree on. Get a group of us in a room for an hour and we would struggle to decide whether the correct format for the tag for a book that we have read is:
- Read
- READ
- read
- Some other equivalent i.e. Completed, Finished, etc.
- An abbreviation i.e. Rd, RD, rd, etc.
In a sensible sized group where we were committed to working together we might get an agreement but finding a system that works for 1 million users will be difficult.
I appreciate the vision that Bob has for the Logos community but sat here in the UK using Logos to help me pastor a Church here I really don't want the distraction that comes from a set of information that is of dubious value to me. I appreciate that this might be harsh, and possibly a bit 'spiritual' sounding, but I'm really not interested in what other people think is interesting I'm more concerned in finding what God says is interesting and I personally do not need a lot of other voices crowding His out.
As I have said, take my data, make it anonymous, and display it for those who want it but PLEASE let me turn off globally what I see as a pointless distraction.
This can already be accomplished by right clicking the visual filter and turning off for all resources.
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Since secure data is of little concern perhaps Mr. Pritchard would freely give us his private cell phone so we could contact him in more convient ways....you know its all in the public domain anyway.
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Paul Golder said:
I mean it's not like people lose
their jobs, or marriages by what they post online. And it's not like
some Christians are hunted down and imprisoned or killed for what the
authorities have discovered on the internet...I am assuming this is playfully sarcastic :-) I have known of many cases of both... So yeah, i can get a bit paranoid. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you ;-)
heehee
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Bob Pritchett said:
Your grocery store didn't ask you before data mining transactions (even cash transactions!) to learn that people who buy peanut butter also buy jelly and bread, and you probably didn't care.
The analogy isn't correct. The difference is that data acquisition on our purchases is normal, but that while the vendor/manufacturer have the right to monitor sales in their own store, they don't have the right to see what we do with our purchases after we have bought them e.g. what we eat our jelly with at home. Even though for digital downloads/sales, the fact that the sales and usage are done on the same computer, tehre should still be a distinction between the two. Logos has the right to sales/support stats, but for what started out in life as a desktop application, anything more than that really should have our permission, which can only be granted when there is an option to not give it, not the option it seems that we have at present which is 'like it or lump it' (I don't know if that expression is well known across the pond, but I assume you know what I mean - either live with it or stop using Logos software).
And over and above program usage stats, privacy of user data (Documents etc) should be assumed without question, unless permission is granted otherwise. This is what the EULA states, but the aggregation of popular highlights, community ratings/tags, shows that this is not being adhered to, as far as I see it. While this is not a big issue as it stands, it could be a concerning trend beginning.
Bob Pritchett said:The "I have confidential stuff in my notes" theme is a red herring. If it's that secret, you shouldn't type it into your computer -- in any application.
Bob, with respect, in my view the argument that nothing can be confidentially stored on a computer is a serious overreaction, and does not correlate well with the reality that much is stored confidentially on computers worldwide. It appears like a poor excuse for not giving us privacy controls. No IT system or developer that I know of takes the view that because of data breaches being a possibility/reality, that it is pointless to take steps to try to maintain data security - the opposite is the case, they try harder to do so. Instead of such a response, I would have expected to hear that
because of such data integrity concerns, Logos is taking extra steps to
increase the privacy/confidentiality of users' data etc. But what I see is the opposite where user data is being shared as community data, even though it is the fairly innocuous aggregation of anonymised highlighting and ratings/tags at the minute.The "eat all you can" pricing model seems really interesting - I love the sound of it. Yet, I hope you're not arguing that because of a future feature that we might want, that we're not going to be offered usage or data privacy/confidentiality because future features may depend on the collection of data to make them work. If it were a choice between features and privacy, give me privacy any day.
There are number of distinct things relating to this thread: (i) program usage stats feedback, (ii) confidentiality/privacy of user data in Documents etc, (iii) syncing or backup of user data, (iv) download and display of community data (v) ability to keep internet usage to download resources without having sync/updates etc require lots of bandwidth first, (vi) the need for feedback to allow some new features to function, and probably more. I wouldn't like the argument to be flattened to a few (minor?) issues e.g. (i) or (vi), and the baby to be thrown out with the bathwater regarding other issues.
But while I have strongly held views on these topics, don't let that give the impression that I'm very critical of Logos generally. It's fantastic software, and a real blessing to me in ministry, for which I'm truly grateful for all the work that has been put into it... [:)]
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EmileB said:Paul Golder said:
I mean it's not like people lose
their jobs, or marriages by what they post online. And it's not like
some Christians are hunted down and imprisoned or killed for what the
authorities have discovered on the internet...I am assuming this is playfully sarcastic :-) I have known of many cases of both... So yeah, i can get a bit paranoid. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you ;-)
heehee
After all, there are only two kinds of people in this world: The paranoid, and those who don't know what's really going on...
[;)]
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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It does amaze me a bit at how quick to insult with their "silly", "nonsense", etc tags and dismissive some are toward concerns or just plain preference that Logos keep their community based plans out of our purchased resources and let us opt out of data mining.
As I've already stated, comparing the data mining to Google has one distinguishing difference - we do not purchase our searches on Google. Comparing to being tracked through browsers ignore the incognito modes that have been implemented into browsers specifically for users who choose to not be tracked from their own computers.
Comparing a sending Microsoft crash logs from a purchased product like say Microsoft Office to what Logos is doing dismisses a major fact - that you have a choice whether to send the logs or to share anonymous data.
And by far to quote some of you who call some points or opinions silly, to compare it to a grocery store tracking how many people buy peanut butter and jelly together is an insult to our intelligence. This would be a justified comparison if Logos was tracking our purchases and collected data like those who bought NICOT/NICNT also at a high percentage purchase the Pillar Commentary sets...
However what Logos IS doing is comparative to the grocery store tracking the peanut butter and jelly after you purchase it and put it into your personal cabinet to track what type of bread you use, what time of day you eat it and how many times a day you eat it.
These statements of making a "mountain out of a molehill" because Logos wants to do this and someone dare disagree as a paying customer are uncalled for, as is any negative view towards those who have stated they will no longer purchase from Logos if this does not change. Consumers have a right to share what they choose and what they do not choose to share.
Once again I find myself wondering why not just squash the mountain and the molehill by simply implementing an opt-out feature - that allows 100% use of the software and 100% exclusion from the anonymous data collection - Is it really that hard?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Bob Pritchett said:
We don't plan to take away the ability to read books offline without the Internet, and we haven't disabled Logos 3 or 4 or your ability to use older versions of the software. Some future new features, though, will need the web -- the data will be there, and won't fit locally.
That's how I understood what you were saying, Bob, and I would understand and agree with that. You have a great vision... and its your company! Just was a little nervous when you said that Logos would try to do that for as long as possible... which suggested slightly that the time could come when such a position would (have to?) be abandoned. Thanks for reaffirming what I thought you were trying to say. Naturally, new features based on the new direction of Logos, that couldn't be downloaded and used locally due to size, would HAVE to be accessed online. That only makes sense. Those of us who might not have sufficient access to the Net will just have to forgo such new features.. So as I said in my post... as long as whatever incarnation of the basic engine allows me to maintain the ability to access the existing resources and features I have... (and I don't have to pay for features I physically can't access ;-) ) ... well, I'm right with you. Go for it!
Bob Pritchett said:If you have information / data / comments that would cause enormous damage if disclosed, or risk your freedom in an oppressive country, do not put it on a computer. I don't mean don't put it in Logos, I mean don't put it in digital form, on any device, anywhere. There's no adequate digital protection, and you should plan for everything you type to be disclosed. Someday people will, if only for idle entertainment purposes, write software that you can plug a thrown-away laptop or hard drive into and upload it all to a massive search engine in the cloud. This isn't a "Logos-specific" issue. This is common sense. And your biggest risk isn't even our server being hacked -- it's a trojan, a virus, a key-logger, losing your smart phone, walking away from your logged-in computer someone else has physical access to, etc.
Yes, definitely, Bob. You are exactly right. That's generally the approach I take... because I HAVE to here. If folks are simply even uncomfortable with uploading personal files, I can respect that also.... I just never understood why folks simply didn't choose to not use notes or prayer lists in Logos if it bothers them. If it doesn't bother you, go ahead and use those features. If it does, refrain... Your choice.
Bob Pritchett said:With that said, we are listening and will improve our controls here.
I really appreciate that, Bob. Thank you. I posted earlier that in my opinion, "asking" (and respecting someone's decision not to participate, even if it seems silly) is just the gentlemanly thing to do. And as Christians, I see us being called to always have such respect and consideration towards one another. One thing that has impressed me time after time is your gentlemanly conduct (even when under fire and strongly provoked! Very Christlike!). You are, i believe, such a Christian gentleman...and you've shown it many times. So my question would simply be this: Is there any reason why you WOULDN'T want to, or be willing, or able to implement the approach suggested by Mark Barnes? Perhaps there is a factor that we are not aware of as users. If so, could you share that with us? But it seems like it would be a win-win situation for Logos AND those customers who object. Could it be viewed as a simple effort to "as much as it depends upon (us), live in harmony with one another?" This is such a hot button for so many people... and I've always known you to be a peacemaker.
In any case, I'm confident that you are listening... and have no doubt you want to serve and do the right thing... and will consider all of the viewpoints expressed. Thank you!
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Hi again Jon!
It does seem like the user interface for the Little Snitch is fairly user friendly. I don't know what teh various button options represent in practice on your screen shot, but it looks like I can learn! :-) I was curious on your original screen shot, though, as it seemed like you were able to be more selective on what TYPES of data Logos was being allowed to send or not send from your computer. looks like that is a feature that a lot of people would be looking for, if I understand them correctly. They can "sync" for updates, resource downloads, etc... but deny various types of data mining?
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