Logos 4 frustration
Comments
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P. Keith Larson said:
Don’t let those who are the self-proclaimed thought police of this forum drive you off. They make excuses for themselves by saying that they are only responding to inflammatory language. There was nothing inflammatory about your language, only frustrated, yet they basically told you to shut up and take a hike.
If you plan to criticize someone, at least do so honestly. Neither Robert nor I told anyone to take a hike. I simply replied that the course of action suggested by the poster may be his best course of action. Why should anyone continue to frustrate himself?
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For "MJ" and Jeremiah:
Yes, Some of us have consistently noticed that (for us) the scroll bar is very, very, very sluggish. Tugging, clicking at it results in delays of seconds and results finally in 'jumps." It definitely is NOT smmooooth. There is NO comparison to the scroll bar on my L3..
There may be many reasons...all I can judge by is what I see.
It is much worse on my P4 one core. I must keep resources to a bare minimum (2? etc) in order to "beat" this problem.
.As to the 2 core 4 gig laptop,(ie Logos target? middle of the road? computer?) it runs slightly better.
If I was upgrading I'd buy a i7 quad core tower (to get comperable specs in a laptop would be very expensive).
As others have noted this is a "hit-and-miss," computer to computer, user to user experience and NO ONE has come up with a definitive answer as of yet.
And if they think they have, so far I believe they are merely extremely fortunate in their software/harware configuration.
So I continue to try to work around it hoping for future "optimizations" etc
Steve F.
Regards, SteveF
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P. Keith Larson said:
I share your frustration and as a long time Logos user and supporter I have a deep sense of betrayal.
Betrayal? When you wife has sex with your best friend, that's betrayal. A software company not meeting your (possibly unrealistic) expectations isn't even in the same time zone with 'betrayal'.
Good grief, people. Get a life!
I'm brand new to L3, and even newer to L4. But one thing I figured out is, there are a LOT of experienced users on these forums, and if you bother to ask a question instead of whining, you'll get good answers.
(Sorry for the lack of patience, folks...I'm getting tired of this <bleep> I'm seeing on the forums.)
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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KevinTaylor said:
For those that have a 6 year old computer that they are disappointed won't run with blazing speed on Logos 4, please, are you serious? I say this not as an insult but seriously, are you serious?
Actually my company has a rule that any feature that is present in version n should run as fast or faster in version n+1 if run on the same machine (unless it has had significant new functionality added.) Every night we run our testsuite on the latest build and track down the code changes which cause any slowdown and fix it right away.
So as long as the computer runs the software and meets the requirements, it is not unreasonable to seriously expect all the V3 features that made it into V4 to meet this speed limit. The improvement in the searches proves it can be done for the complex functions so it should be possible for the mundane.
It may be that an older computer won't run everything as fast as the latest iron will, but to expect the same function to be the same speed or faster in subsequent versions on the same computer is seriously reasonable.
Regards,
Clinton
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'Stephen Filyer said:As others have noted this is a "hit-and-miss," computer to computer, user to user experience and NO ONE has come up with a definitive answer as of yet.
And if they think they have, so far I believe they are merely extremely fortunate in their software/harware configuration.
THAT seems to be an accurate statement and one that's a source of a lot of the frustrations here on the forum.
It just doesn't seem that "bigger = faster" in a simplified way....it's something unknown at this point....hmmm
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Clinton Thomas said:KevinTaylor said:
For those that have a 6 year old computer that they are disappointed won't run with blazing speed on Logos 4, please, are you serious? I say this not as an insult but seriously, are you serious?
Actually my company has a rule that any feature that is present in version n should run as fast or faster in version n+1 if run on the same machine (unless it has had significant new functionality added.) Every night we run our testsuite on the latest build and track down the code changes which cause any slowdown and fix it right away.
So as long as the computer runs the software and meets the requirements, it is not unreasonable to seriously expect all the V3 features that made it into V4 to meet this speed limit. The improvement in the searches proves it can be done for the complex functions so it should be possible for the mundane.
It may be that an older computer won't run everything as fast as the latest iron will, but to expect the same function to be the same speed or faster in subsequent versions on the same computer is seriously reasonable.
Regards,
Clinton
Clinton, while I commend you company's policy and the general rule you are applying here it is simply beyond reason for anyone to think that a machine that is 5 or 6 years old will have anything beyond a minimal performance level while running certain applications.
I have been an uber computer enthusiast for 25 years, building and repairing PCs, and am an IT professional in an Enterprise environment and I tell you that any PC that is 6 years old is ancient if doing anything more than surfing and running basic apps. As far as a gaming or high end production machine doing say video editing PC etc, 3 years old is quite aged.
I have L4 installed on my 5 y/o 2 Ghz Celeron [2 Gigs Ram] which I recently installed Win 7 Ultimate on and I tell you that it runs but after using my gaming laptop all day the last thing I want to do is run L4 on my elderly Celeron Desktop. The performance differences are highly noticable so guess what? I run L4 on my 64 bit Duo Core laptop 100% of the time.
The point is that while L4 runs on older systems each user must decide what an acceptable "run speed" is for them. It is not fair to expect software developers to account for the guy out there still running Windows 2000 on a Pentium 4 while designing software. That guy needs to upgrade his machine as all of the creative programming in the world cannot make L4 run on a Pentium 4 like it runs on my 64 bit Duo Core.
If you believe that, I have an old Yugo I want to sell you, it runs on the race track just like a 2009 Porche!
Any serious computer user needs to budget to upgrade his/her machine every few years to make sure they are getting the best experience possible. This is especially true of people wo use Bible software as a main study tool. It is worth it to me to spend money on great equipment because it has a great return to my spiritual life. That was all I was saying...
Logos 5, Windows & Android perfect together....
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The original post and the subsequent responses are an interesting read!
As with the original poster I too am a WORDsearch user and a Logos user (I also have the now defunt Pradis as well). I plan to upgrade to both WORDSearch9 and L4. I appreciate what each of these programs contribute to my study. Here's why I will be upgrading both.
1. WORDSearch still has book selections that Logos does not. Some of these are current and some of these are classics. As long as that's the case I will use both. I much prefer studying the Bible digitally then with pen and paper. Incidently, this was the reason I used Pradis as well - they had the NIV Application Commentary and The Expositors Bible Commentary.
2. Sometime Logos has more power then I actually need to use. If I want to do a "quick" study where I am not overwhelmed by possibilites and wander off track then I typically use WORDSearch. If I want to get "down and deep" with a passage then it's Logos. I see value to having both.
That said, I can not run L4 on my laptop. My laptop is 5 years old and it runs fine but it just meets the basic system requirements but not the recommended system requirements for L4. I'm not going to drop the $$ to convert to L4 only to be frustrated by what I know would end up being a seriously slower version of Logos on my laptop. I don't really have the money to buy a new laptop so the Christmas list changes as a hopes of offsetting the cost. This is where L4 hurts Logos users like me. The money that I had planned to put down for product now is budgeted for a new laptop. I am quite certain my upgrade will be the L4 equivalent and not a step up (Scholars gold to gold rather then Scholars gold to platinum). This also effects my decision on what to do with the Pradis/Logos transition. If the "discount" offered to Logos users is not much of a discount at all I will simply hold off on that and use Pradis until it becomes unuseable. For someone like me, L4 has cost Logos money because the money that I was budgeting for Logos books now must go to a new Laptop.
I realize that I may be in the miniority here; a Logos user who does not have the latest and greatest computer. I am still of the impression that the new L4 and what it requires in computer power, computer skills, and finances (Logos product + high end computer) has made Logos more of an elite Academic tool rather then something that the average Pastor in America (or even the average person who wants to study the Bible on a deeper level) can afford or use.
I am looking forward to upgrading to L4 and I hope the upgrade discounts last into the new year when I will be able to afford both the equivalent updgrade to what I own now and a new laptop.
Chris Hulshof
“Truth is unkillable” – Balthasar Hubmaier
"If heaven ain't a gift I ain't gettin' in." - Lecrae Moore
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Clinton Thomas said:
... wrote a bunch of stuff about relative performance...
KevinTaylor said:... wrote a bnuch of stuff about absolute performance....
Hi Kevin,
I think you missed my point.
Regards,
Clinton
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Clinton Thomas said:
Actually my company has a rule that any feature that is present in version n should run as fast or faster in version n+1 if run on the same machine (unless it has had significant new functionality added.) Every night we run our testsuite on the latest build and track down the code changes which cause any slowdown and fix it right away.
I've been in development for 20+ years and this is fine if you are going from version n to version n+1 but it is a totally different situation with Logos 4. They have redeveloped on a totally different platform. It's like redeveloping for another OS. I've done the conversion myself and it is not easy. I think they have done a good job of providing the core library functionality, with a bunch of new features, on the new platform. This provides them with a good basis for moving forward. I think the first order of business was to get the product into users hands so they could start getting feedback.
I suspect a lot of the speed issues are related to the underlying framework and the resources that it requires. I am also guessing most users probably don't have enough memory or processing power. Logos will work out speed issues over time but if you want to use the latest software you need to budget for good hardware. I have a 3 year old no frills laptop and it works fine.
As a development company you are really in a no win situation. If you move to new technology with new features the users are mad because you changed their beloved product. But you really do need to change the product to take advantage of the new platform and position yourself for future development. If on the other hand you don't move, the users are upset in a few years because of how backward thinking your are and your product isn't taking advantage of the latest bells and wistles like other programs are. The fact of the matter is that Microsoft is putting all their resources behind .Net, WPF, WCF, etc. As a developer, if you are not playing in this space you will be left behind.
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Randy Hartman said:
Yesterday I ordered an upgrade for my MS Word. I am upgrading from Word 97 all the way up to 2007! I am fully expecting it will be different--that menus will be changed and things will work differently. Uh, that's why I am upgrading. Some stuff I'll like, some I won't. If I am not willing to trudge through a learning curve I'll just stay with Word 97.
Randy,
If you find it difficult to locate commonly used functions in the new MS ribbon interface, try their online tutorials. In 45 minutes, I found them to be a great aid in getting up to speed.
Regards,
Scott
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Randy Hartman said:
Yesterday I ordered an upgrade for my MS Word. I am upgrading from Word 97 all the way up to 2007! I am fully expecting it will be different--that menus will be changed and things will work differently. Uh, that's why I am upgrading. Some stuff I'll like, some I won't. If I am not willing to trudge through a learning curve I'll just stay with Word 97.
EXACTLY Randy - MS Word is a comparable example I think. The differences between Word 97 and Word 2007 are dramatic - some good, some not so much. I was frustrated too when looking at the Beta - I am getting warmer and warmer to Logos 4. There is a large learning curve for sure, but overall this is a powerful tool and is only going to get more power from here.
2015 13" MacBook Pro - 2 Ghz Intel i7 - 16 GB RAM - 500GB SSD - 2018 iMac Pro - 3.2GHz 8-core Xeon - both systems running OS 10.14.3 (Mojave)
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Kevin Dart said:
I'm a layperson who uses L3 for personal Bible study. L3 is really too much for my purposes however I would like to enjoy some of the new features listed in the L4 specs. The Greek and Hebrew audio readers intrigue me, and being able to search my whole library seems too easy to be true. I am somewhat afraid of the new Interface but I'll take the time to learn it when the time comes to upgrade. Should I upgrade now or wait and see how it all works out in mid 2010? I do have a new Dell Studio 17 laptop running Windows 7. You seem to be very knowledgeable about both L3 and L4. I would really appreciate your opinion. Thanks, and God Bless, Kevin.
My advice is to upgrade now; the new content is worth the price of admission even if you use it on Logos 3!
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I don't think you are presenting a fair representation of Logos. I have used Logos since it first came out on 3.5 inch disks years ago. I assure you it is a great program or I wouldn't have stuck with it all these years. Currently, I have the top of the line Logos 5 program. It is huge to say the least. I doubt I will ever use or read all the books in this application. While Logos 5 Portfolio is my main go to Bible program, I have to say that WordSearch 10 is a great program also. I wish I had Word Search 10 Preaching Library Gold. I have seen videos of it and I would love to have it. It has some features I like that Logos doesn't have. I really don't care about all the books to read. I'm interested in the Commentaries, Concordances, Word Studies etc and it looks like Word Search has enough to keep a person busy for a long time. At present I only have Word Search 10 Basic but I'm thinking of upgrading it as soon as I get Logos paid for. Have a nice day and may the Lord Richly bless you.
Daryl
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Welcome to the forums Daryl.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Daryl said:
I don't think you are presenting a fair representation of Logos.
Daryl,
You responded to a very old post (the first one in the thread!) without quoting the text you were responding to. Please use the Quote button to do this. If the post is lengthy first select the relevant part before clicking Quote.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Wow ... deja vu.
Or as the Logosians say 'Didja vu the videos?' (the most common Logosian answer to anything not absolutely breath inspiringly positive).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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