Usage of the word θεὸς?

I was reading "The Indelible Image: Volume 1" and came across the following statement:

" In all but seven places in the New Testament the term theos refers to the one whom Jews knew as their God and earliest Christians called “Father” or “Abba.” In those other seven instances the term refers to Jesus, God’s Son."

Ben Witherington, III, The Indelible Image: The Theological and Ethical Thought World of the New Testament, Volume 1: The Individual Witnesses (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2009), 46.

It struck me that with the tools in L5 I should be able to validate this statement but couldn't quite work out how!

The Morph search "lemma:θεός ANDEQUALS God" finds where the lemma is translated as "God" but a similar search against Jesus returns no results.

Presumably any cases where θεός is translated as Jesus (and if tagged as such in terms of Biblical Facts) then if we could search against Biblical Facts we could find these.

I think I am missing something obvious here!

Any thoughts on how I can validate the statement made in the book?

Thanks, Graham

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Lynden O. Williams

Graham, try running a search on the word theos in the na27 and add the ESV beside it and compare results.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437119#Comment_437119

Graham, try running a search on the word theos in the na27 and add the ESV beside it and compare results.

I ran this, and to me everyone looks the same. Their Strong's and L-W is the same, In Cascadia their tagging is the same. If you look at one we know refers to Christ like John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", I see nothing different, and you have to figure we know it refers to Jesus only out of context; so that the only way this can be determined is through the tagging of something like Bible Facts. Just my .02, I may be wrong....

Rick Brannan (Logos)

In those other seven instances the term refers to Jesus, God’s Son

Witherington really should footnote the seven exceptions when he makes assertions like that.

My guess (only a guess — I don't have the book or any secret knowledge) is that he is referring to things like Titus 1:3, "God our Savior"; Titus 2:10, "God our Savior", Titus 2:13 "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ", and perhaps some others.

I don't know of an easy way to search for such things; perhaps a syntax search for noun phrases with θεος as head modified by some other term that can mean Jesus. That could possibly find the first two I list, but not the third (which is one of the poster-boys for the Granville Sharp rule).

Sorry I can't be of more help. If you or someone you know have access to Witherington on the Pastorals (he has a commentary on this material published by IVP, it is not in Logos) you might look for comments on those verses for any further light from him on his assertion.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437119#Comment_437119

Graham, try running a search on the word theos in the na27 and add the ESV beside it and compare results.

Thanks Lynden.

However, there are 1,317 results and I am not sure I would be able to check these thoroughly!

Graham

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437121#Comment_437121

Thanks Dominick

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God",

In this case, the first occurrence is tagged as "God the Father" and the second is tagged as "God" (which I think denotes ambiguity!

Graham

Todd Phillips

Presumably any cases where θεός is translated as Jesus (and if tagged as such in terms of Biblical Facts) then if we could search against Biblical Facts we could find these.

I think I am missing something obvious here!

Graham, you're not going to find any place where θεός is translate as Jesus. It is rather a question of who do they mean by θεός. As in when Thomas sees Jesus after the resurrection:

John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

If the clause search was beefed up, it might be able to do this search (since "God" is tagged as "person:Jesus"), but not in it's current incarnation.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437126#Comment_437126

Hi Rick - thanks for your comments

Witherington really should footnote the seven exceptions when he makes assertions like that.

That would have been nice!

I don't know of an easy way to search for such things; perhaps a syntax search for noun phrases with θεος as head modified by some other term that can mean Jesus. That could possibly find the first two I list, but not the third (which is one of the poster-boys for the Granville Sharp rule).

At least its good to know I wasn't missing anything obvious[:)]

Appreciate the response

Graham

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437129#Comment_437129

Hi Todd - thanks for this

John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

That's a great example - thanks.

If the clause search was beefed up, it might be able to do this search (since "God" is tagged as "person:Jesus"), but not in it's current incarnation.

That would do it (depending on "correct" tagging) - maybe this will come in a future release[:)]

Appreciated,

Graham

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437134#Comment_437134

Would this work?

1. clause search person:Jesus

2. lemma search g:theos

3. convert both to passage lists

4. merge taking only those instances in both lists

5. See if the list is now short enough for manual inspection

DavidS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437138#Comment_437138

Would this work?

1. clause search person:Jesus

2. lemma search g:theos

3. convert both to passage lists

4. merge taking only those instances in both lists

5. See if the list is now short enough for manual inspection

Thanks for this. I gives me a possible answer to this thread. http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61703/437132.aspx#437132

elnwood

I was reading "The Indelible Image: Volume 1" and came across the following statement:

" In all but seven places in the New Testament the term theos refers to the one whom Jews knew as their God and earliest Christians called “Father” or “Abba.” In those other seven instances the term refers to Jesus, God’s Son."

Ben Witherington, III, The Indelible Image: The Theological and Ethical Thought World of the New Testament, Volume 1: The Individual Witnesses (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2009), 46.

I found the answer in BDAG under θεός. John 1:1. John 20:28. Romans 9:5. Titus 2:13. Hebrews 1:8. 2 Peter 1:1. 1 John 5:20.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

Presumably any cases where θεός is translated as Jesus (and if tagged as such in terms of Biblical Facts) then if we could search against Biblical Facts we could find these.

As you know, it's not currently possible to search against the data in Bible Facts; we plan to add this capability in a future release.

For now, you can open Bible Facts to Jesus, scroll down in the "Referred to as" section to "God", and see these verses: John 1:34 (seems like an error, should actually be "Son of God"), Jn 20:28, Titus 2:13, and Rev 1:8. elnwood has already listed these, except for Rev 1:8, which is discussed here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61470/435984.aspx#435984

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437138#Comment_437138

Hi MJ - thanks for this, great suggestion

Would this work?

1. clause search person:Jesus

2. lemma search g:theos

3. convert both to passage lists

4. merge taking only those instances in both lists

5. See if the list is now short enough for manual inspection

It results in a much reduced list - but still with 455 passages.

It, as one would expect, returns verses where the word θεός is used but Jesus is referenced - often separately.

But a great improvement on what I had.

Appreciated, Graham

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437263#Comment_437263

As you know, it's not currently possible to search against the data in Bible Facts; we plan to add this capability in a future release.

This extra capability would be great. Looking forward to it[Y]

For now, you can open Bible Facts to Jesus, scroll down in the "Referred to as" section to "God", and see these verses: John 1:34 (seems like an error, should actually be "Son of God"), Jn 20:28, Titus 2:13, and Rev 1:8. elnwood has already listed these, except for Rev 1:8, which is discussed here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61470/435984.aspx#435984

That is what I was missing - many thanks.

It's a different approach which I need to bear in mind.

In addition to the verses against "God", further down there are:

the only God (John 1:18)

Many thanks

Graham

Doug

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437283#Comment_437283

I think the Rev 1:8 needs to be examined a bit closer too. The is / was / is to come being is identified in verse 5 separately from Jesus Christ. I don't really think that being would change before that particular scene in the vision was completed.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437126#Comment_437126

Just an update[:)]

My guess (only a guess — I don't have the book or any secret knowledge) is that he is referring to things like Titus 1:3, "God our Savior"; Titus 2:10, "God our Savior", Titus 2:13 "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ", and perhaps some others.

None of thees references suggested by Rick appeared in the Passage List intersection suggested by MJ above.

Checking on them Titus 1:3 and 2:10 have θεος tagged as "God" but 2:13 has it tagged as Jesus so this last one should have appeared in the intersected PL.

Looking at the respective PLs, the one based on the search for θεος returns a hit against Titus 2:13 but the one based on the search for the person of Jesus returns a hit against Titus 2:13-14. When you merge them together 2:13 isn't included presumably due to one of the references spanning two verses. I''ll start another post to explore whether this is expected behaviour.

EDIT: Posted in http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61753/437367.aspx#437367

Scanning through the intersection of the Passage Lists as suggested by MJ I came up with five possibles:

John 20:28 - Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
Romans 9:5 - to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Titus 2:13 - while we wait for the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

Looking at some in more detail:

Romans 9:5 was included due to the presence of "Messiah" tagged as Jesus and "θεὸς" being tagged as God. The question is whether θεὸς should actually be tagged as Jesus. While this is a hotly-debated topic, having consulted a number of commentators, I think it should be tagged as Jesus and thus think the tagging may be wrong
1 John 5:20 was included due to the presence of a couple of clear references to Jesus and a couple of references to θεὸς. However, whether it is a real hit depends on whether "He is the true God" refers to the Father or to Jesus. Logos has it tagged as "God the Father". Again the commentators I have looked at argue strongly that it refers to Jesus so again there is a question about the tagging which Logos has provided
As discussed in the thread referenced by Bradley above there are questions about the tagging in Revelation 1:8

I'll raise these tagging questions in another thread for visibility.

EDIT: Posted in http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61752/437364.aspx#437364

So it looks as though I can find five of the seven to which Witherington referred (although there are debates about three of them)!

It does tend to re-confirm Rick's comment above

Witherington really should footnote the seven exceptions when he makes assertions like that.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437355#Comment_437355

It does tend to re-confirm Rick's comment above

Witherington really should footnote the seven exceptions when he makes assertions like that.

No, No - Rick's wrong - Look at how much we've learned about researching with Logos because Witherington didn't.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/437574#Comment_437574

It does tend to re-confirm Rick's comment above

Witherington really should footnote the seven exceptions when he makes assertions like that.

No, No - Rick's wrong - Look at how much we've learned about researching with Logos because Witherington didn't.

Great point, MJ

Reminded me that having these extra tools and tagging is making me look at things more closely.

Which has got to be good!