How to re-write and release a replacement product.
Comments
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
But it is a beta since features are designed to be released very soon but are not yet in the software. This is by definition a beta.
If you can give me a reference for your definition of beta, then I will accept your argument. [:)]
Most definitions of beta I work with include: the feature list is frozen (i.e., it's feature complete according to the release plans of the developer) and the software is still untested and buggy. Planned features may be added in the next version. Now if it was still exceedingly buggy, then calling it beta might have more merit. Calling it beta implies that it is buggy, but design decisions aren't equivalent to bugs. It's better just to say that features are missing.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Sean Boisen said:
Instead, i'd like to respectfully turn this around and invite you to supply your chart or list indicating what L3 does that you can't get L4 to do.
Don't have a chart, but how about this list.
1. Sentence diagrams
2. Open and move about quickly and smoothly - it is better than it was, but still very slow
3. Keep prayer lists
4. Personal book builder files
You see where this is going. I could give you the same answer many give. Look at the missing feature list. They are coming. The point is that they are not in the initial release so the "upgrade" as LOGOS not me calls it is less functional in some ways that the previous version. Therefore it is less of a program by defintion. It has some new features. Great! I love them. But I also love some of the missing features.
And by calling it Logos 4 they are signaling what every computer users assumes that means. This is a newer and better version. So when we open it and find that it is not better in a few areas, there is disappointment. And when a program is slower than the previous version in most ways except for one, there is disappointment. And saying, then go back to the old one is not a good solution for Logos as a company and me as a user. It leaves me feeling less satisfied with the product and therefore the company.
Someone here compared Logos 4 to Vista. It is their Vista in that they called it an upgrade when it was in many ways, but was just not ready. Logos 4.1 will hopefully be the Windows 7 of Logos Bible Software.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Ken Avery said:
I am glade all the people who only use the eye candy are happy.
Well, I would certainly disagree that eye candy is the only area L4 is superior in. There are vast improvements in some areas of functionality, with a couple backward steps as well. I refuse to define L4 by only the backward steps without also taking into consideration the forward movement.
Ken Avery said:Having been a customer for many years; I believe in Logos and enjoy the product, my comments are being made out of concern for the product I love and use for hours every day and have been using every day for years.
I don't doubt this in the least.
Ken Avery said:Evidently, my standards are much higher than yours..
I wouldn't call them standards so much as preferences and requirements, and I wouldn't call them higher so much as different.
Ken Avery said:I believe Logos can do a better job; as a matter of fact, I expect Logos to do a better job and I am not going to suggar coat it.
No one wants Logos 4 to succeed more then the Logos employees, their spouses and the mouths of their children [:D]
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Todd Phillips said:
Most definitions of beta I work with include: the feature list is frozen (i.e., it's feature complete according to the release plans of the developer) and the software is still untested and buggy. Planned features may be added in the next version. Now if it was still exceedingly buggy, then calling it beta might have more merit. Calling it beta implies that it is buggy, but design decisions aren't equivalent to bugs. It's better just to say that features are missing.
Would you call excessively slow performance a bug?
If not, then maybe beta is not the term you would us. Fine. But it is not a fully featured upgrade. Any piece of software that has a "missing features" page is not finished. Now if these were new features that they have not yet implemented yet, then I would be on the other side of the argument.
We all know that they pushed it out to get it in before the Christmas deadline. But I think this was a mistake for upgraders. Not a problem for new users since they cannot miss features they've never used.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Kevin A. Purcell said:Philip Spitzer said:
Well, I'm no programmer, but I hope they don't tie Logos down to the limitations of decades old hardware but instead write the program to take advantage of today and tomorrow's hardware advantages.
Strangely we are in a weird time as the hardware of "today and tomorrow" is actually becomeing less capable and more capable at the same time. Netbooks are less capable and they are selling like crazy. But many struggle to run Logos 4 on them. I know some of you are perfectly happy with it. But I would not want to run it on one as my expectations are much higher.
I think the original writer was spot on. Logos 4 is not ready yet. Will be. But it is a beta since features are designed to be released very soon but are not yet in the software. This is by definition a beta. Sorry. I know people don't like it when user criticize the software, but it is the opinion of many very loyal and faithful customers including myself. One day it will be great. But not yet.
Aye, regarding the maturing of Logos 4, for sure ... but I understood that to a degree at least before I made the decision to purchase my upgrade. I read through the missing list, to be sure. I admit to bewilderment when my maiden Logos 4 home screen displayed itself after an almost all-nighter of downloading and indexing (once the indexing started, I lapsed into a slumber 'til dawn's early light, or thereabouts). Moreover, L-4 initially sent me screaming back to the safe haven of my Libronix 3, where I'd learned long ago to dig deep to find and figure out what I needed to more efficiently get it done. I have a plethora of specialized collections, workspaces and custom toolbars and everything was just so. Logos 4 was and is so unlike its Libronix 3 counterpart.
However, L-4 is growing on me more and more, especially over the last week or so and I kinda like it. I've had a spot more time to dive into its depths over the long holiday weekend. I think I first stopped grousing about and fighting it and started to work with L-4 more so after watching an off-site video a fellow Logos user put together showing how to make some of the "old" things "new", in a manner of speaking.
I don't like change when I'm in midst of making the transition, I don't like it atall, not one bit (so bears my beloved hubby witness over recent weeks [;)])! I can't go back and recapture all those hours back in the 1980's I spent so carefully writing those simple little DOS ditties in Basic and getting everything just so on my old 8088 and 286 systems (no programmer, me, just a semi-retired clinical and research psych) any more than I can recapture all the time I spent carefully crafting and personalizing those custom workspaces and toolbars, keylinks, collections and on and on in Libronix 3.
I'm going to lose some time I can't recapture, it's always that way with a paradigm shift. Sometimes forwarding thinking dictates it ... but I still don't like change, never have, never will, but I manage to adapt ... sooner or later! [:)]
Lenovo P72: Intel 8th Gen i7-8750H 6-core, 32GB RAM, 2TB HDD + 1TB Sata SSD, 17.3" FHD 1920x1080, NVIDIA Quadro P600 4GB, Win 10 Pro
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Ken Avery said:
My biggest pet peve right now is "Key Linking" or whatever is going to replace it and the ability to customize Logos; I spent a long time getting Logos the way I want it and don't know where to start to get the equivalent feature/functionality.
Ken...
this is NOT to bait you but to point out something (not necessarily to you) but you just said a mouthful...
Does anyone remember their first reaction to the "time-consuming-amazing-that-it-had-to-be-done" ordeal that was known as keylinking?
the first time I saw the directions I was blown away that this was necessary...not only on first install...but when L3 convientely forgot my settings and I had to start all over again... [:D]
L4 is different to be sure...the same functionality is not there...(I thought that it might be in the future; but don't quote me) but it does work for many users without the intense keylinking ceremony before beginning.. [:D]
And yes...we are all a little frustrated by out pet-features that either aren't there....or are different, but we got used to how 3 did things....and in time...we will get used to 4....right?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Ken
if you hate your L4 use your 28 day money back offer, and stick with L3, no one is holding a gun to your head and saying use L4
I understand where you are coming from being a developer with over 25 years experience, but respectfully disagree with your summary.
Given that L4 was written from scratch, all new code, the initial release results are very encouraging (and worthy of release), yes theres a few things that need fixed/added (mainly power user stuff), and they will be added, but it was important to get the software out to the 95% that never use these tools.
Yes its a pain for us power users who have to wait for the extra bits to get coded, but the general (normal user) concencus is L4 is a winner, and worthy replacement.
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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David Oxtoby said:
I'm surprised as to how negative a lot of the comments are on these forums, L3 is still available and L4 is coming on leaps and bounds, no-one is forcing anyone to upgrade and Logos have made it clear what stage L4 is at, so i think a bit less moaning and a lot more praise.
I'm surprised at how many are willing to give a pass on the missing features in a "finished" product that is being charged for. Define "leaps and bounds". And this line about no one is forcing anyone to upgrade is specious. Sounds good. But I am not concerned for those who have not yet upgraded but those who have not being told clearly and up front that this was not fully complete. There was a high amount of praise and a huge amount of excitement. I took part in it blogging and posting on twitter about it. But now wish I had not. I knew about it as a beta tester but then the more I realized what was happening to people who paid for an upgrade, I feel bad for them. They expect better and many are getting less that expected.
Logos did not make it clear. Beta testers knew clearly what was up. But we were not paying 70 bucks to get a product that has less than the previous. So I post only to push this company, one of my favorites, to take a close look at what they are doing and reconsider doing it in the future. I have praised what was praiseworthy but I would nto call what I and many others are doing as moaning. Rather some careful warning to those who might come expecting what was a fair expectation. In June 2010 that expectation will likely be met, I hope. But it is not going to be now.
Finally I will end with praise. Kudos to Logos for not shutting people like me up. They are a fair company and care about their users. That is why I trust that they will get this right eventually!!
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Ken Avery said:Debra W Bouey said:
Since you find Logos 4 an illegitimate replacement for Logos 3, I believe Logos will graciously grant you a refund for whatever amount for Logos 4 you have already expended. I cannot fathom Bob would want you to utilize any Logos product you find to be illegitimate, half-baked and just downright unsatisfactory.
Thanks for you opinion; one, I am using the new content in Logos 3 (been a user for many years) that was sold under the Logos 4 purchase. I am glade all the people who only use the eye candy are happy.
Having been a customer for many years; I believe in Logos and enjoy the product, my comments are being made out of concern for the product I love and use for hours every day and have been using every day for years.
Evidently, my standards are much higher than yours and I believe Logos can do a better job; as a matter of fact, I expect Logos to do a better job and I am not going to suggar coat it.
No one is asking you to sugar coat anything. Grouse about here all you like, Bob reads every post, so he'll see yours as well. The bottom line here still remains the fact if you're so displeased with Logos 4 as to find it unable to meet your needs, you are free to get a full refund for making the leap to L-4 to begin with. That is the baseline here, is it not? So you've only really lost the time it took you to download and index it, coupled with whatever time you've worked with it to this point, which is unfortunate, of course.
All of that notwithstanding, you can, after all, should you so choose, prevent yourself from losing anymore time with L-4, a new software release from Logos you've already deemed unsuitable, by simply calling and requesting a refund.
If you want to vent, well, I reckon you're obviously free to do that in this forum as well ... just don't expect us to bow at your superior footstool without expressing ourselves as well, kind sir.
Lenovo P72: Intel 8th Gen i7-8750H 6-core, 32GB RAM, 2TB HDD + 1TB Sata SSD, 17.3" FHD 1920x1080, NVIDIA Quadro P600 4GB, Win 10 Pro
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DominicM said:
Given that L4 was written from scratch, all new code, the initial release results are very encouraging (and worthy of release), yes theres a few things that need fixed/added (mainly power user stuff), and they will be added, but it was important to get the software out to the 95% that never use these tools.
It is not a 1.0 release. Look at the title. It is Logos 4.0. Rewriting it from scratch and leaving out features may make it a different product, but if they want the benefit of the doubt for being a 1.0 they should call it a 1.0. Change the name and call it Logos Ebook System 1.0 or something. But if you call it Logos 4.0 then you are signalling to your loyal and faithful customers that it is everything 3.0 was and more.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Robert Pavich said:
Does anyone remember their first reaction to the "time-consuming-amazing-that-it-had-to-be-done" ordeal that was known as keylinking?
No.
But, it's not that hard. It's accessible from the right click context menu of any resource....
Robert Pavich said:L4 is different to be sure...the same functionality is not there...(I thought that it might be in the future; but don't quote me) but it does work for many users without the intense keylinking ceremony before beginning.
Certain things simply don't work - phrases for example...
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Todd Phillips said:
Most definitions of beta I work with include: the feature list is frozen (i.e., it's feature complete according to the release plans of the developer) and the software is still untested and buggy. Planned features may be added in the next version. Now if it was still exceedingly buggy, then calling it beta might have more merit. Calling it beta implies that it is buggy, but design decisions aren't equivalent to bugs. It's better just to say that features are missing.
I would add to this that from day one of the beta program we were told L4 would not have these features. Missing Features are determined by what we the users want. Release features are determined by what Logos has decided to give us. L4 was released with the features Logos decided to give us in L4. There are many practical factors that go into these decisions that exist within limits that our desires and dreams for the software do not.
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
Would you call excessively slow performance a bug?
FWIW: I do not find L4 excessively slow. Occasionally inconveniently slow, as every piece of software I have every owned has been from time to time, but not "excessively slow".
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Debra W Bouey said:
If you want to vent, well, I reckon you're obviously free to do that in this forum as well ... just don't expect us to bow at your superior footstool without expressing ourselves as well, kind sir.
I don't believe Ken was expecting that at all, nor am I. So it was probably not a helpful comment. I am simply engaging in a friend debate and expressing my views. After all this is a forum and that is what one does in an online forum. Thanks for engaging in the debate.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Kevin A. Purcell said:
Would you call excessively slow performance a bug?
Only if that was what defined the software but clearly....there are many users who have vastly different experiences....I'm one.
My L3 searches were MUCH slower than my L4 searches...
Do you rememember WHY we used collections (for the most part) in L3?
Because doing a search on even half of your library would take so long you'd never stand for it! Remember? So the solution was to "divide your library up into smaller chunks"
So..no...I wouldn't say that your experience of slow performance is indicative of being a "buggy piece of software"
(Not necessarily directed at you personally) And PS: anytime anyone wants to pretend like this never happened and use V3 UNTIL ALL OF THE FEATURES OF V4 ARE IN PLACE can do so...right?
Nobody twists anyone's arm to use V4....V3 is still the same thing that it always was....a good bible software package....that didn't disappear
Just don't click the V4 icon until later in 2010 and you'll never know what's not there.... [:D]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Philip Spitzer said:Kevin A. Purcell said:
Would you call excessively slow performance a bug?
FWIW: I do not find L4 excessively slow. Occasionally inconveniently slow, as every piece of software I have every owned has been from time to time, but not "excessively slow".
I am aware that many are not having this problem. But after reading this forum you will notice that many are myself included. Reinstalling on a fresh install of Windows helped a lot. But not enough. BTW I am also having a problem with the Title bar being black instead of the normal windows color. This is a bug and it is known and hopefully will be fixed.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Kevin A. Purcell said:
Therefore it is less of a program by defintion. It has some new features. Great! I love them. But I also love some of the missing features.
Depends on how you add things up. If L3 is a 100, and L4 lacks 10 of what L3 does, you have 90. If L4 then adds to that 90 20 of what L3 wasn't you now have 110 and thus more of a program and not less. Yes, the dog is a math genius as well. Now no one is disputing the 10. The question is, how much to L4 add or improve that L3 missed?
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Philip Spitzer said:
Depends on how you add things up. If L3 is a 100, and L4 lacks 10 of what L3 does, you have 90. If L4 then adds to that 90 20 of what L3 wasn't you now have 110 and thus more of a program and not less. Yes, the dog is a math genius as well. Now no one is disputing the 10. The question is, how much to L4 add or improve that L3 missed?
If only it was this simple [<:o)]
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
BTW I am also having a problem with the Title bar being black instead of the normal windows color. This is a bug and it is known and hopefully will be fixed.
ditto. I have the same problem.
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Philip Spitzer said:
Depends on how you add things up. If L3 is a 100, and L4 lacks 10 of what L3 does, you have 90. If L4 then adds to that 90 20 of what L3 wasn't you now have 110 and thus more of a program and not less. Yes, the dog is a math genius as well. Now no one is disputing the 10. The question is, how much to L4 add or improve that L3 missed?
This doesn't work. If it is missing something that many find valuable, to them you can add all the features in the world, but they will still miss the other feature.
For me those features are sentence diagramming and overall program performance. Until it gets those two things back it will be less useful to me.
I know - don't upgrade. BTW that only makes the person saying seem insensitive and doesn't help the person it is being said to. We know this. I signed up to beta test Logos 4 and will do so for another 6 months. But if at that time it is not up to 3.0 standards I will remove it and not use it or recommend it. I fell pretty sure it will be by then.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Kevin A. Purcell said:
I know - don't upgrade.
I can't recall ever saying this, but then again enough people have that it would be hard to remember who has and who hasn't and I might have joined the choir and forgot.
EDIT: I WANT you to state your opinions and have this discussion. I want people looking to use L4 to have as much information about it as possible. I don't want you to get your refund, shut-up, and go away so that I can sing L4's praises. I want you to respectfully state your opinions (which I have always felt you have) and for me to respectfully state my opinions so that others can make the most informed decisions.
EDIT EDIT: Besides, Posting to this thread is helping me get above Thomas in the overall Post count [:D]
Kevin A. Purcell said:For me those features are sentence diagramming and overall program performance. Until it gets those two things back it will be less useful to me.
Then the formula works different for you, L3 is 100, -50 for sentence diagramming is 50, + 20 takes you up to 70. what ever the values you place on things are up to you, but to simply leave the formula at L3 - what I miss I believe is short sighted. One should take into consideration how L4 can benefit them over L3. It may still end up being short but it should be considered none-the-less.
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
I know - don't upgrade. BTW that only makes the person saying seem insensitive and doesn't help the person it is being said to. We know this
No Kevin...it seems that not everyone does...
Personally, the last time I bought software that i didn't like (Office 2007) I paid for it...used it...didn't really like it...then I uninstalled it and used Open Office.
I didn't go onto the Microsoft forums and complain about how horriifying a product Office was...nor did I say how they should have left well enough alone so i'd like the program....i just chose to not use the product; as it didn't do what i wanted the way I wanted it....no biggie.
Saying "don't upgrade" or 'wait awhile before clicking the V4 icon" is NOT insensitive...I would have called it "a viable alternative to a big problem...." [:D]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Don't get me wrong I am all for progress and a new and better Logos 4; I said my initial impression is that Logos 4 is not ready to replace Logos 3. As far as the buisness decission to ship early and pay for development; I am fine with that, by all means, pay the bills.
Logos has an excellent reputaion and I purchased the product to help keep things going and the price of the additional content may never be this low again, that make this "upgrade" worth it!
As far as Logos 4 goes; I believe the re-write is well worth the investment; my only complaints are concerning the company communications and would like to know more about what will be ready, when it will be ready and if anything is going to be left out. I would like this information to be a link that is easy to find.
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
For me those features are sentence diagramming and overall program performance. Until it gets those two things back it will be less useful to me.
Understood: everybody has their own set of important features.
I too hope (and expect) overall performance will continue to improve. According to the missing features list, sentence diagramming is slated for 2Q 2010.
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Ken Avery said:
As far as Logos 4 goes; I believe the re-write is well worth the investment; my only complaints are concerning the company communications and would like to know more about what will be ready, when it will be ready and if anything is going to be left out. I would like this information to be a link that is easy to find.
a reasonable request.
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Sean Boisen said:Kevin A. Purcell said:
For me those features are sentence diagramming and overall program performance. Until it gets those two things back it will be less useful to me.
Understood: everybody has their own set of important features.
I too hope (and expect) overall performance will continue to improve. According to the missing features list, sentence diagramming is slated for 2Q 2010.
What about keylinking - I hated it when it first came out and ended up depending on it after getting everything set up - is there something that replaces it?
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Ken Avery said:
My biggest pet peve right now is "Key Linking" or whatever is going to replace it and the ability to customize Logos; I spent a long time getting Logos the way I want it and don't know where to start to get the equivalent feature/functionality.
Here we changed functionality to try to hit a better sweet spot for most of our users. Rather than detailed keylinking, in L4 you prioritize resources. There's additional information and discussion (and some similar complaints) about keylinking on these threads:
- http://community.logos.com/forums/p/823/7664.aspx
- http://community.logos.com/forums/t/934.aspx
- This video talks about resource prioritization: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHF8a1UsYJU.
As mentioned in these threads, some power users aren't happy with this change because they have less fine-grained control. What L4 has gained in my view (and some others agree) is less fussing about, and more intuitive behavior.
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Ken Avery said:
My biggest pet peve right now is "Key Linking" or whatever is going to replace it and the ability to customize Logos; I spent a long time getting Logos the way I want it and don't know where to start to get the equivalent feature/functionality.
I get so frustrated because it took years to get Logos the way I want it and now it is all out the window!
I can agree with the first part. Prioritizing is not a functional equivalent of L3's data type "key linking". It is an attempt to get away from the complexities of L3, but it is a feature that is fraught with compromise as the desired object for different references or links cannot be achieved 100% of the time. For example it is not possible to construct a list which will ensure that ESL is the object for Greek Strong's and Hebrew Strong's numbers when you have other lexicons that are also indexed on Strong's numbers.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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