This kind of language really irks me. I suppose the whole Moriah thing, the whole Passover thing, the whole slain from the foundation thing, all just sorta slipped His mind and went over His head? Absurd.
This kind of language really irks me.
I guess open theology can creep in anywhere. Either that, or we should be careful of the words we choose.
Or maybe it was intentional? I get made fun of, but I stay away from Wright. Slippery a slope as a teflon-coated ice cube.
These forums aren't really the place to debate theology, or in this case a point of Christology, but I think you're over-reacting here. Consider the following:
What did Jesus know when He was born? What did He learn this over time? What was revealed to Him when and how? Luke says that Jesus grew in wisdom, stature and even in favor with God and people (Lk 2:52 - a significant Christological statement!). While I'm not sure Wright has it right here (about when Jesus came to understand/know this or that), it's difficult to disprove from the gospels.
I don't intend to debate you on this. But if it would help, if I clarified something, let me know.
This kind of language really irks me. I suppose the whole Moriah thing, the whole Passover thing, the whole slain from the foundation thing, all just sorta slipped His mind and went over His head? Absurd. These forums aren't really the place to debate theology, or in this case a point of Christology, but I think you're over-reacting here. Consider the following: What did Jesus know when He was born? What did He learn this over time? What was revealed to Him when and how? Luke says that Jesus grew in wisdom, stature and even in favor with God and people (Lk 2:52 - a significant Christological statement!). While I'm not sure Wright has it right here (about when Jesus came to understand/know this or that), it's difficult to disprove from the gospels. I don't intend to debate you on this. But if it would help, if I clarified something, let me know.
Yes, thank you! I came in here intending to say almost the same thing. Though I'm not sure where all of that stand wrt the forum rules. But I'm thankful for what was said here.
It seems that in his omniscience that Jesus was still bound to the Father. Consider Mark 13:32.
I say all this as a man who does not line up theologically with Wright.
Thanks, Brothers! A Happy and Blessed New Year to you!
I'd love it if we ended this thread right about here, eh?
Please take God's Presence (Jesus is our Emmanuel!) and Power and Love and Joy into the New Year with you and your loved ones ... and share it with others.
...if I clarified something, let me know.
I agree that Lk. 2:52 is significant...but that verse can easily mean something quite different than what we typically assume it means when we encounter it. What it does mean is precisely what YHWH intends it to mean. Remember when Yeishuu`a said "destroy this temple"? Everyone thought He meant Herod's temple...an entirely logical and wholly experiential conclusion to form...and entirely false. Hinneih!! He said it the way He did FOR THE VERY PURPOSE of having people draw the wrong conclusion. That idea might catch people off-guard, but it is virtually impossible to deny...because if He had wanted to not be misunderstood, He could have said what he said in an unambiguous way rather than in language that was undeniably (and without question, intentionally) ambiguous. His purposeful intention and our experiential assumptions are often two seperate things.
Regarding His "growing in wisdom", one question to ask is, who taught Him? More specifically, who taught Him TRUTH?
We should remember that He was present when the plan was being crafted. Did He "forget" it when He emptied Himself? If so, what kept Him from sinning while He was rummaging around trying to figure it all out? I see only one explanation: He kept full knowledge from Word to womb to world. Since wisdom applies primarily to application, the simple fact of his existence in the flesh while applying Tohraah is alone sufficient to satisfactorily fulfill Lk. 2:52. It certainly doesn't have to mean He was piecing it together bit by bit as He stumbled along.
In fact, it can't mean that.
Hi David
If you are interested in reading points of view other than what you already hold. I'd encourage you to tread Eugene Peterson's Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places: A Conversation in Spiritual Theology (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 2005). He makes the profound argument (based on 1 John) that we have dehumanised Jesus, with devastating consequences for the way we do community.
This is actually a very good question. Your implied answer is either God or Torah (or perhaps no one). Of course there were things that Jesus didn't know (such as the time of the end), so we have to take the self-limiting of his deity seriously enough to see him as fully human. So perhaps a better question might be how did Jesus grow in wisdom? How did he come to the understanding he did of himself and the nature of his ministry?
Seriously, I think that could be a question worth pursuing. Presumably Jesus learned much of this through Scripture, but it's how he understood Scripture that I think would be worth pursuing. For example, one could make a pretty good argument for a military solution (based on Joshua and the judges and King David, and the Maccabees, and ...), yet Jesus didn't take and apply those Scriptures in a woodenly literal way. How did he get this wisdom?
If I could follow his train of thought, his way of understanding Scripture and applying it to his mission in his time, would that teach me how I should understand Scripture and apply it well in our time? Hmm...
Hi David If you are interested in reading points of view other than what you already hold. I'd encourage you to tread Eugene Peterson's Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places: A Conversation in Spiritual Theology (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 2005). He makes the profound argument (based on 1 John) that we have dehumanised Jesus, with devastating consequences for the way we do community.
"Devastating" is a pretty big word. While I do see devastation in the Christian church, perceptions regarding Yeishuu`a's humanity aren't the reason for it. Still, I'd be more than willing to read Peterson's book. I spend the majority of my time (besides when I'm studying Scripture) reading stuff I don't agree with--I'm always looking for a solid argument.
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