Does Logos offer the academic discount for L5 upgrades?
No discounts with this offer. It's probably the cheapest it'll be.
As far as I know, yes--a way to check is to see what the upgrade price is with you signed in (assuming you are an academic user)... then sign out (or use a different Web browser where you're not signed in) to see what the non-academic price is. If you're an academic user, the discount automatically shows on any product.
Marcus has more forum posts than I do. I'll defer to him. And, now that I think about it, you couldn't sign out and see an upgrade price, since then it wouldn't be an "upgrade" price (since it would think you didn't own anything if you signed out).
Thanks for your help!
The discount for the packages that you see if you sign in and out will be based on the library that you already have. I.e l4. It'll be a custom upgrade but there's no academic discount because this is the initial offering for all...I have the a discount but it does not apply this package unfortunately. Hope that helps. Happy shopping. :-)
Well, when it comes to Logos 5, there is a special package that I guess you could say is on academic discount. You have to call in and ask about the "Biblical Languages" Package. It's the one I got and I am very happy with it, plus, I got it a lot cheaper than silver and paid an extra $15 to get all of the databases. Less than silver, but all the databases like gold. I would call it an academic discount. [:D]
No matter what "the market" suggests, I think dropping this program from the Website was a mistake. (We all make them.) Especially since Logos is actually better for biblical languages than it often receives credit for. For Septuagint word studies, for example, I find Logos to be perhaps the most intuitive and quickest to use of the Bible softwares I've used.
Daniel, out of curiosity, can you say what's in the Biblical Languages package? And (if you're comfortable sharing) can you say what the price range for it is? At least users could find out via the forum, even if it's not on the Website and they have to call to find out...
Hello Abram,
Here's what is reported to be in Logos5 Biblical Languages package:
Here is what comes with the BL Package... A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew, rev. ed. (Paul Joüon, Takamitsu Muraoka) A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament A Harmony of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles (Crockett) A Harmony of the Gospels (Robertson) A Harmony of the Synoptic Gospels A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament A Textual Guide to the Greek New Testament American Standard Version An Introduction to Aramaic An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax An Introduction to Ecclesiastical Latin Apocryphal New Testament Apostolic Fathers in English Apostolic Fathers Reverse Interlinear Aramaic Papyri of the Fifth Century BC Beginning Biblical Hebrew BHS Text Bible Analysis Addin Bible Illustrations Bible Puzzles Addin Bible Sense Lexicon Bible Tools Addin BiblePlaces.com Image Library Biblical Hebrew for Beginners Biblical Languages Addin Biblical People Biblical People Addin Biblical PlacesBiblical Things BK Events Book of Common Prayer (1979) Daily Office LectionaryBook of Common Prayer (1979) Sunday Lectionary Brenton LXX (English) Brenton LXX (Greek) Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew/Lexicon Building Your Biblical Hebrew Vocabulary Building Your New Testament Greek Vocabulary Cascadia Syntax Graphs of the New Testament: SBLGNT Edition Catholic Lectionary Chapman’s New Testament-Greek Notebook Christian Worship One Year Lectionary Christian Worship Three Year Lectionary (with Supplemental Lectionary) Clausal Outlines of the Greek New Testament: SBL Edition Clause Search Clementine Vulgate Compare Parallel Bible Versions Addin Complete Works of Josephus Concise Oxford English Dictionary, 11th Edition Davidson’s Introductory Hebrew Grammar Diagrammatical Analysis Dictionary of Biblical Languages (Aramaic OT) Dictionary of Biblical Languages (Greek NT) Dictionary of Biblical Languages (Hebrew OT)Dictionary of the Vulgate New Testament Douay-Rheims Bible Elzevir Textus Receptus (1624) with Morphology English Standard Version ESV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the New Testament ESV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear of the Old Testament Eusebian Canons (Eusebius) Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (Bullinger) Glossary of Morpho-Syntactic Database Terminology Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research Graphical Query Editor Addin Greek Audio New Testament Greek New Testament Insert Greek Pronunciation Addin with Erasmian & Modern Data Sets Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domains L-N Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint Harmony of the Gospels HarperCollins Bible Dictionary Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures (Gesenius) 39.95Hebrew Bible Insert Hebrew Grammar (Gesenius) Hebrew Syntax Holman Christian Standard Bible Idioms of the Greek New Testament, Second Edition Images from A Biblical and Theological Dictionary Images from A Dictionary of the Bible Images from A Standard Bible Dictionary Images from An Illustrated History of the Holy Bible Images from Helps to the Study of the Bible Images from Illustrations of the Bible from the Monuments of Egypt Images from The Bible Hand-Book Images from The Illustrated Bible Treasury Images from The People’s Bible Encyclopedia Images from The Temple Bible Dictionary Images of the Holy Lands Introduction to Biblical Greek Collection Jackson Jude – 2 Peter (Jackson) Josephus in Greek: Niese Critical Edition with Apparatus Kairos: A Beginning Greek Grammar & Workbook Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament King James Version King James Version Apocrypha KJV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear KJV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Learning Biblical Hebrew: A New Approach Using Discourse Analysis Learning New Testament Greek Now and Then LEB English-Greek Reverse Interlinear LEB English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Lectionary Addin Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition Lexham Apostolic Fathers Reverse Interlinear Lexham Bible Dictionary Lexham English Bible Lexham English Septuagint Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: SBL Edition Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition (including alt texts) Lexham Hebrew Bible with Morphology Lexham Hebrew Septuagint Reverse interlinear: H.B. Swete Edition Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible Lexham Interlinear Septuagint: Rahfs Lexham LXX / MT Parallel Alignment (reverse interlinear (for BWS) Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon Light from the Ancient East Linguistic Analysis of Biblical Hebrew LLS Addin Logos Bible Images Logos Bible Photos Logos Bible Software Addin Logos Bible Software Infographics Logos Bible Software Maps Logos Deluxe Map Set Lutheran Service Book Historic (One Year) Lectionary Lutheran Service Book Three Year Lectionary Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition Merriam-Webster Collegiate Thesaurus More Light on the Path: Daily Scripture Readings in Hebrew and Greek NASB95 English-Greek Reverse Interlinear NASB95 English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Nestle-Aland 28th Edition Greek New Testament New American Standard Bible – 1995 Update New Century Version New King James Version New Living Translation New Revised Standard Version New Testament Apocrypha New Testament Synonyms (Trench) NIV 2011 English-Greek Reverse Interlinear NIV 2011 English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear NKJV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear NKJV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear NLT English-Greek Reverse Interlinear NRSV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear NRSV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear NT Genre Coding NT Semantic Domain Coding Nunn’s Syntax, Elements, and Key to the Elements of New Testament Greek Old Testament Allusions Old Testament Greek Pseudepigrapha with Morphology Old Testament Quotes in the New Testament (HCSB) Original Languages Addin OT Genre Coding Pastoral Epistles (Brannan) Personal Bible Study Tools Addin Personal Book Builder Reader Key Phrase Concordance Rahlf’s Septuagint w/Logos Morphology Records of the Life of Jesus Referent Data Remote Library Search Addin Reported Speech Revised Common Lectionary Revised Common Lectionary Daily Readings Revised Standard Version Richter Hebrew Morphology SBL/Logos Greek New Testament Sentence Diagramming Addin Septuagint Variants with Logos Morphology Septuagint Variants with Logos Morphology Reverse Interlinear Stephen’s Textus Receptus (1550) with Morphology Student’s Guide to the Textual Criticism of the Bible Swete LXX with Morphology (text, alt text, app, alt text app) Synopsis of the Four Gospels (Aland) Synopsis of the Old Testament (Jackson) Syntax of the Hebrew Language of the Old Testament Syntax of the Moods and Tenses in NT Greek Syntax Tools Addin Tanakh (JPS) Tanakh (old) Thayer’s Greek Lexicon The Andersen-Forbes Analyzed Text of the Hebrew Bible The Andersen-Forbes Analyzed Text of the Hebrew Bible: A Systematic Glossary The Andersen-Forbes Phrase Marker Analysis of the Hebrew Bible The Animals Mentioned in the Bible The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament in English The Apostolic Fathers Greek-English Interlinear The Apostolic Fathers, with an English Translation The Apostolic Fathers: Revised Texts with Short Introductions and English Translations The Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition Vol. I: 1Q1-4Q273 – Vol. II: 4Q274-11Q31 The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (with Morphology) (Logos) The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament Glossary The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: Sentence Analysis The NET Bible The New Testament in Greek (Scrivener 1881) The New Testament in Greek (Westcott and Hort) The New Testament in the Original Greek: Byzantine Textform The OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament The OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament Glossary 0The OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis The Parallel Aligned Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Texts of Jewish Scripture The Plants of the Bible The Targums from the files of the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon Project The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts The Works of Philo: Greek Text with Morphology Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Unabridged Theological Lexicon of the New Testament (3 vols.) Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament (3 vols.) Tischendorf Apparatus Treasury of Scripture Knowledge Understanding BHS United Methodist Revised Common Lectionary Universal Timeline WIVU Hebrew Morphology Works of Philo
Here is what comes with the BL Package...
A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament
A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew, rev. ed. (Paul Joüon, Takamitsu Muraoka)
A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament
A Harmony of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles (Crockett)
A Harmony of the Gospels (Robertson)
A Harmony of the Synoptic Gospels
A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament
A Textual Guide to the Greek New Testament
American Standard Version
An Introduction to Aramaic
An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax
An Introduction to Ecclesiastical Latin
Apocryphal New Testament
Apostolic Fathers in English
Apostolic Fathers Reverse Interlinear
Aramaic Papyri of the Fifth Century BC
Beginning Biblical Hebrew
BHS Text
Bible Analysis Addin
Bible Illustrations
Bible Puzzles Addin
Bible Sense Lexicon
Bible Tools Addin
BiblePlaces.com Image Library
Biblical Hebrew for Beginners
Biblical Languages Addin
Biblical People
Biblical People Addin
Biblical PlacesBiblical Things
BK Events
Book of Common Prayer (1979) Daily Office
LectionaryBook of Common Prayer (1979) Sunday Lectionary
Brenton LXX (English)
Brenton LXX (Greek)
Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew/Lexicon
Building Your Biblical Hebrew Vocabulary
Building Your New Testament Greek Vocabulary
Cascadia Syntax Graphs of the New Testament: SBLGNT Edition
Catholic Lectionary
Chapman’s New Testament-Greek Notebook
Christian Worship One Year Lectionary
Christian Worship Three Year Lectionary (with Supplemental Lectionary)
Clausal Outlines of the Greek New Testament: SBL Edition
Clause Search
Clementine Vulgate
Compare Parallel Bible Versions Addin
Complete Works of Josephus
Concise Oxford English Dictionary, 11th Edition
Davidson’s Introductory Hebrew Grammar
Diagrammatical Analysis
Dictionary of Biblical Languages (Aramaic OT)
Dictionary of Biblical Languages (Greek NT)
Dictionary of Biblical Languages (Hebrew OT)Dictionary of the Vulgate New Testament Douay-Rheims Bible
Elzevir Textus Receptus (1624) with Morphology
English Standard Version
ESV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the New Testament
ESV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear of the Old Testament
Eusebian Canons (Eusebius)
Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (Bullinger)
Glossary of Morpho-Syntactic Database Terminology
Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research
Graphical Query Editor Addin
Greek Audio New Testament
Greek New Testament Insert
Greek Pronunciation Addin with Erasmian & Modern Data Sets
Greek-English Lexicon Based on Semantic Domains L-N
Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint
Harmony of the Gospels
HarperCollins Bible Dictionary
Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures (Gesenius) 39.95Hebrew Bible Insert
Hebrew Grammar (Gesenius)
Hebrew Syntax
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Idioms of the Greek New Testament, Second Edition
Images from A Biblical and Theological Dictionary
Images from A Dictionary of the Bible
Images from A Standard Bible Dictionary
Images from An Illustrated History of the Holy Bible
Images from Helps to the Study of the Bible
Images from Illustrations of the Bible from the Monuments of Egypt
Images from The Bible Hand-Book
Images from The Illustrated Bible Treasury
Images from The People’s Bible Encyclopedia
Images from The Temple Bible Dictionary
Images of the Holy Lands
Introduction to Biblical Greek Collection
Jackson Jude – 2 Peter (Jackson)
Josephus in Greek: Niese Critical Edition with Apparatus
Kairos: A Beginning Greek Grammar & Workbook
Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament
King James Version
King James Version Apocrypha
KJV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
KJV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
Learning Biblical Hebrew: A New Approach Using Discourse Analysis
Learning New Testament Greek Now and Then
LEB English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
LEB English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
Lectionary Addin
Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament
Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition
Lexham Apostolic Fathers Reverse Interlinear
Lexham Bible Dictionary
Lexham English Bible
Lexham English Septuagint
Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: SBL Edition
Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition (including alt texts)
Lexham Hebrew Bible with Morphology
Lexham Hebrew Septuagint Reverse interlinear: H.B. Swete Edition
Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible
Lexham Interlinear Septuagint: Rahfs
Lexham LXX / MT Parallel Alignment (reverse interlinear (for BWS)
Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon
Light from the Ancient East
Linguistic Analysis of Biblical Hebrew
LLS Addin
Logos Bible Images
Logos Bible Photos
Logos Bible Software Addin
Logos Bible Software Infographics
Logos Bible Software Maps
Logos Deluxe Map Set
Lutheran Service Book Historic (One Year) Lectionary
Lutheran Service Book Three Year Lectionary
Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition
Merriam-Webster Collegiate Thesaurus
More Light on the Path: Daily Scripture Readings in Hebrew and Greek
NASB95 English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
NASB95 English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
Nestle-Aland 28th Edition Greek New Testament
New American Standard Bible – 1995 Update
New Century Version
New King James Version
New Living Translation
New Revised Standard Version
New Testament Apocrypha
New Testament Synonyms (Trench)
NIV 2011 English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
NIV 2011 English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
NKJV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
NKJV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
NLT English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
NRSV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
NRSV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear
NT Genre Coding
NT Semantic Domain Coding
Nunn’s Syntax, Elements, and Key to the Elements of New Testament Greek
Old Testament Allusions
Old Testament Greek Pseudepigrapha with Morphology
Old Testament Quotes in the New Testament (HCSB)
Original Languages Addin
OT Genre Coding
Pastoral Epistles (Brannan)
Personal Bible Study Tools Addin
Personal Book Builder Reader Key
Phrase Concordance
Rahlf’s Septuagint w/Logos Morphology
Records of the Life of Jesus
Referent Data
Remote Library Search Addin
Reported Speech
Revised Common Lectionary
Revised Common Lectionary Daily Readings
Revised Standard Version
Richter Hebrew Morphology
SBL/Logos Greek New Testament
Sentence Diagramming Addin
Septuagint Variants with Logos Morphology
Septuagint Variants with Logos Morphology Reverse Interlinear
Stephen’s Textus Receptus (1550) with Morphology
Student’s Guide to the Textual Criticism of the Bible
Swete LXX with Morphology (text, alt text, app, alt text app)
Synopsis of the Four Gospels (Aland)
Synopsis of the Old Testament (Jackson)
Syntax of the Hebrew Language of the Old Testament
Syntax of the Moods and Tenses in NT Greek
Syntax Tools Addin
Tanakh (JPS)
Tanakh (old)
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon
The Andersen-Forbes Analyzed Text of the Hebrew Bible
The Andersen-Forbes Analyzed Text of the Hebrew Bible: A Systematic Glossary
The Andersen-Forbes Phrase Marker Analysis of the Hebrew Bible
The Animals Mentioned in the Bible
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament in English
The Apostolic Fathers Greek-English Interlinear
The Apostolic Fathers, with an English Translation
The Apostolic Fathers: Revised Texts with Short Introductions and English Translations
The Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition Vol. I: 1Q1-4Q273 – Vol. II: 4Q274-11Q31
The Greek New Testament, Fourth Revised Edition (with Morphology) (Logos)
The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament
The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament Glossary
The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: Sentence Analysis
The NET Bible
The New Testament in Greek (Scrivener 1881)
The New Testament in Greek (Westcott and Hort)
The New Testament in the Original Greek: Byzantine Textform
The OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament
The OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament Glossary 0The OpenText.org Syntactically Analyzed Greek New Testament: Clause Analysis
The Parallel Aligned Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Texts of Jewish Scripture
The Plants of the Bible
The Targums from the files of the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon Project
The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts
The Works of Philo: Greek Text with Morphology
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Unabridged
Theological Lexicon of the New Testament (3 vols.)
Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament (3 vols.)
Tischendorf Apparatus
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
Understanding BHS
United Methodist Revised Common Lectionary
Universal Timeline
WIVU Hebrew Morphology
Works of Philo
Thanks, BK. It's funny, because now with the inclusion of Joüon/Muraoka and Waltke for Hebrew grammars (which I don't think this package included before), it's even more potentially competitive with all that BibleWorks offers... Logos really must not be nearly as interested in this potential target audience.
Does anyone have any sense of how much the package costs?
he inclusion of Joüon/Muraoka and Waltke for Hebrew grammars (which I don't think this package included before),
This, is true.
Before, moving to Logos5 my basepackage was Logos4 Original languages and it did not come with the two above mentioned Hebrew Grammars. I do not understand why Logos doesn't simple offer this package via the website for those interested it. I think they are turning away potential customers. I know, I would never have spent any money on a LogosBase package if it weren't for Logos4 Original Languages and I am not alone in feeling this way.
I do not understand why Logos doesn't simple offer this package via the website for those interested it. I think they are turning away potential customers. I know, I would never have spent any money on a LogosBase package if it weren't for Logos4 Original Languages and I am not alone in feeling this way.
On 22 Nov 2012, Bob Pritchett's reply => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/60280/430475.aspx#430475 included:
Original Languages simply sold very few units, and it didn't fit the "each package is a super-set of the previous package" hierarchy. We felt it introduced more confusion than clarity in purchase process / comparison charts. (And I think we made this decision before we established the dynamic pricing engine.) As you've pointed out, we do have a new "Biblical Languages" package which we're offering via academic sales, which is where almost all Original Languages sales happened. We may offer it via the web site in the future; I expect we may even have other specialized collections. But whatever they are, you can be sure we aren't pushing a particular theological position; we're just trying to meet the market needs.
Original Languages simply sold very few units, and it didn't fit the "each package is a super-set of the previous package" hierarchy. We felt it introduced more confusion than clarity in purchase process / comparison charts. (And I think we made this decision before we established the dynamic pricing engine.) As you've pointed out, we do have a new "Biblical Languages" package which we're offering via academic sales, which is where almost all Original Languages sales happened.
We may offer it via the web site in the future; I expect we may even have other specialized collections. But whatever they are, you can be sure we aren't pushing a particular theological position; we're just trying to meet the market needs.
Personally wish Logos would add "Biblical Languages" package information to the Academic page => http://www.logos.com/about/academic
Keep Smiling [:)]
wish Logos would add "Biblical Languages" package information to the Academic page
I would like to see BLL show up on the comparison page, at least for registered academic users. There does not appear to be any way to order it online and there is no way to compare BLL resource to other base collections to see if this is the right choice for a person.
do not understand why Logos doesn't simple offer this package via the website for those interested it. I think they are turning away potential customers.
Perhaps there were not many sales, but I doubt it would take away from sales of other collections. For many pastors this might be the right way to get many of the essential Greek and Hebrew reference books. I would like to see it listed for any who might want it.
Agreed, Harry and Keep Smiling. I hate to quibble (especially with Bob not--presumably--present on this thread), but to say
"But whatever they are, you can be sure we aren't pushing a particular theological position; we're just trying to meet the market needs."
does sound to me like a particular theological position, at least insofar as theology and economics intersect. Not a partisan one, and heaven knows an online forum is a difficult place to do/discuss theology, but doesn't our theology come to bear in how we interact with "the market" and the economy? What drives what and why? Could Logos decide--from a values standpoint--that making Biblical Languages packages and options available to pastors, academicians, etc. is a priority, market forces notwithstanding?
It's a free market--Logos can choose what they think best, and Bob has better insight into these sorts of things than probably any of us who write in these forums. But trying to meet "the market needs" is not a "just trying to" kind of position--it's core values-driven at the least and potentially theological, too.
And maybe that is best for Logos. Perhaps they are being driven by a theology of good stewardship, and for them to not advertise a low-selling package is an issue of being a good steward with their resources. If that's the case, I disagree, but can respect their decision. However, as others have pointed out, that does run the risk of giving over the biblical languages portion of the market to other Bible software companies.
wish Logos would add "Biblical Languages" package information to the Academic page I would like to see BLL show up on the comparison page, at least for registered academic users. There does not appear to be any way to order it online and there is no way to compare BLL resource to other base collections to see if this is the right choice for a person.
Thread => Chart of Logos 4 & Logos 5 Packages includes a Google Doc spreadsheet link => https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhAl790TopkhdHNsTnRLY1A2RU9OY3pDNHdqTHVpQ3c that has a Merged (Logos) tab, which is missing Logos 5 features for Biblical Languages.
The Blog article => http://blog.logos.com/2012/11/5-ways-to-move-to-logos-5/ has a footnote for Original Language that refers to Academic Program.
Got an answer on pricing for the Biblical Languages package:
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/60280/452708.aspx#452708
