I'm blown away at the power of L4: a skeptic repents
Comments
-
Kevin A. Purcell said:
If in fact Logos is going to be in "constant beta" then I won't last long around here.
Yeah, I was taken aback by this statement as well. I am in agreement with you, Kevin, although it depends on what Bob meant by his statement. If he meant that L4, being a released product but in a constant beta stage, I will not be lasting long. If it is a model as always been (such as what was done in L3...and I suspect from his statement that this is not what he means), then that is a different story.
I might be focused wrong but my understanding of the complaining has less to do with the new look and style and more to do with the excitement of downloading L4 with no understanding that
1. The download would be the biggest any program has ever asked to download...and without giving the unsuspecting downloader the information he/she needs to be prepared
2. L4 was still in beta form (and still is today)
I would argue that if on day 1 (not day 21) this information was released, most people who have complained, would not have complained. The first 21 days of L4, I was saving the data and reformating my machine on my spare time as a result of crashes due to installing L4.
When I finally got everything working again, and L4 installed, it ran just as I expected from the information I had...and I love L4 just as I knew I would, not having any problem with change in style or look.
As I understand now, these two issues mentioned above have been addressed. But they were real issues the first month of L4.
0 -
"Constant Beta" is potentially negative until perceived feature parity is achieved between L4 and L3 (and with L4 for Mac).
"Constant Beta" is potentially positive after feature parity is achieved because that is an indication of aggressive development of new features.
0 -
I love to test beta software. Right now I am enrolled in beta tests for about four different products and have other beta software installed that is so good I use it for most of the work I do in those programs.
What I want on a program that has to work for me because I have to get work done is that they might choose to rush out some new feature with this beta all the time mentality that will break it at just the wrong time. With the new update feature in L4 it just updates and being a guy who loves living on the edge, I always greet the little blue box in the tray with excitement
Sadly, now the excitement is "will it finally improve the speed of this program" instead of "wow what new feature is in here today."
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Robert Pavich said:Kevin A. Purcell said:
If in fact Logos is going to be in "constant beta" then I won't last long around here.
Kevin,
remember L3? It was a beta download for....hmmmm all it's life? Up to V4 I had the "Beta 3" installed
Yep. I do. But in that case the beta was always smooth and fast. Not yet the case for L4.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Here are some other thoughts regarding L4 and its release and the effect of not having "parity" of features with L3
At present, though I have L3 and L4 on my computer, (and I do not have excessive slowness issues with L4), because my notes, verse lists, prayer lists, etc are only accessible in L3, and because copy/paste and print are more restricted on L4, and L4 notes do seem to have some bug issues, I cannot actually use L4 for my work. I can run it so as to update it and have a poke around, but it is not going to be my bible study software for some time... maybe 6, 8, 12 months?
The effect of this is that while L4 requires some new adaption and learning, I am not using it enough in work to find out how to use it or to see any great feature for which I think it might be worth holding out, instead when I am running it I am comparing it with how easily I use L3 and all the great features of L3 which L4 does not (yet) have.
So one effect of "public beta" may be to make the newer program look weaker.
There is another, longer term background concern. Logos have certainly made a new departure in L4. It may well be a good business move. But here we have to decide a longer term investment for ourselves. What if, as features from L3 get added back into L4 we find that they do not measure up to L3? What if notes never can replace L3 notes, L4 verse lists cannot do what L3 verse lists could do? They may well do, but we don't know, yet. So we wait. But at some point we will have to decide if L4 is really a departure to a different "audience" than our ministry. Despite the years of information we have added to our logos 3 versions, if we really think L4 will not do the work we need, we will have to look for an alternative as at some point a discontinued product will be less supported. That is the source of some of the consternation at the moment from our point of view.
This may sound (having re-read it) like a moan or something, but it is not. I really believe that properly understanding the causes of customers' responses is vital to resolving them, and its taken me time to work out some of the factors here myself. I hope L4 will improve to the point where I can be using it day to day, but right now, even with the interface and features, it is simply easier and in some specific places neccessary to use L3.
0 -
DeniseBarnhart said:
And on the other, they delight in keeping customers in the dark as long as feasible, until the customers are at just the right boiling point.
Sorry -- that's not our intention. Until Logos 4, we've run almost every beta publicly, and we're right up front about most things we're doing. (Pre-pub is a pretty good advance notice system of what books we're doing, for example!)
Past experience has shown us, though, that there's a cost to dribbling a product out in public beta. For one things, sales of the existing product dry up when people anticipate a new one, even if you promise free updates for a period. (But it's hard to predict when the beta will end, which makes it hard to even make that promise.)
In the past we've ended a very public beta process with barely enough cash to make payroll. (Years ago -- that wasn't an issue this time.)
We did toy with naming Logos 4 something completely new -- because to us it is in many ways a v1.0 product. It's like the original Mac following the Apple IIe. It's not just the next release in a series, though, like the Mac, it is the "next flagship product." While we are improving and adding to Logos 4 constantly, I don't see this period as an extended beta, I see it as a finished v1.0 product with constant updates and improvements. I can see how, from the perspective of a Logos 3 user looking for feature parity, it's not fully baked. But someone with no Logos 3 experience would see it differently.
Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4.
However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users. So a lot of our thought about Logos 4 -- and about when it was "better" than Logos 3 -- had to do with meeting the needs of tomorrow's user. Because shipping Logos 4 takes NOTHING away from Logos 3 users -- you still have Logos 3, and can wait for Logos 4. But for new users, the question is, was Logos 4 yet a more compelling purchase / experience than Logos 3? And our belief was that it was, with easier installation, less confusing activation, simpler, streamlined interface, etc. The fact that sentence diagramming and prayer lists weren't there yet didn't outweigh the benefits of not frustrating new customers with our 2001-era interface and installation process.
I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users. You are very important to us, and we're taking your concerns seriously and addressing them. I'm just trying to provide some explanation of the subjective and complicated decision making process. I'm not saying we made the right call, or picked the exact right moment for each action...just talking about what influenced us.
-- Bob
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
I'm not saying we made the right call, or picked the exact right moment for each action...just talking about what influenced us.
Bob, as a long-time user of Logos, I believe you are moving in the right direction by going after new users. My stuff is only as valuable as the software that runs it. If Logos dies, so does my ability to keep what I have. So go after the new customers. Please.
No there's not going to be a 'but' here.
I think Logos 4 is a better upgrade to Logos 3 than Libronix was to Logos 2. After the initial shock, Logos4 is much more intuitive and easy to move around in, find things and get things done.
I would like to see a bit more Logos staff presence here in the forums. I think it would alleviate a lot of anxiety (which sometimes is expressed as frustration), and build confidence in the company. But I'd much rather have you guys working on the program than talking about working on the program.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
0 -
Richard,
i thought you worked for Logos, just kidding.
You have put in some serious hours answering everyone's questions (including some of mine). Thank you Richard !
Thanks BobP, for your honesty!
Thanks Logos staff for the new product and in advance for the upcoming polished product!
0 -
To all the Logos 4 users out there who are complaining about the new Logos 4 not having all the features of L3. I do appreciate the new features that Logos 4 has, I also realize that it is missing some of the features of L3.
I like the fact that L3 is separate from Logos 4 and can still be used for those features that we feel we can't be without.
Logos 4 has many of the features coming that will rival if not surpass those of L3.To those who still seem to be sour on the new format, have you taken time to consider that the RESOURCES in the upgrades that are offered also work in L3? They are some terrific resources at some terriffic discounts. In your case, think of it this way, forget the fact that the new Logos 4 platform is included and price out the resources that you are interested in that are in the upgrades being offered. With the introductory specials in many cases, the upgrade price is less than one of the commentary sets that are included. Along with that comes the Logos 4 platform that will only get better with time.
At first I upgraded to Logos 4 Platinum from Scholars Gold. The commentaries that I did not have would cost me way more than my upgrade price. As a matter of fact, one of the commentary sets (that was on my wish list) was more than my upgrade price, not including all the others that were included. That alone cinched the upgrade deal. After printing out the comparison between Platinum and Portfolio and calculating what it contained that I would really be interested in that I did not have. I realized that the items on my wish list that were included in the upgrade would cost me $2,000 more than my Portfolio upgrade price! So one month after upgrading to Logos 4 Platinum I have upgraded to Logos 4 Portfolio. I couldn't let the great deal get away. Also what I found was that there were some awesome books included that I didn't know that I really wanted, until I got them.
Thank you Bob and the Logos Team for working diligently to give us great research products! And thank you too, for the great new upgrade offers.
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4.
I have been a Logos 3 user since 2006 when I discovered this marvelous product that would allow me to tote a complete Seminary library in my truck while on the road. I don't get to attend a actual live worship service anywhere near as often as I would like. I also do not have access to Pastors and Ministers for counseling necessarily when I have a question. Logos has been my resource to get the answers and advice to my questions. I sometimes would not do a new library search because my old laptop was slow to return results. When I heard about Logos 4 from the sales dept. I ordered the upgrade Scholars Silver to L4 Scholars Silver on the spot, sight unseen, no questions asked. I should have asked a few questions tho. Maybe the sales department might have warned me about the steeeeeep system requirements for the new engine. I was still eager anyway until I saw the actual sys requirements and my video card was the biggest loser and stumbling block to running L4.
I complained or rather whined would be a better term to tech support about having such requirements for a largely text based system. But in all things God has been generous and kind to me. He used my Dad who is an atheist to provide the means for a brand new top of the line laptop specifically to be able to run L4.
Praise God! I have never been more pleased. While there are changes that can and should be made to the program, I am very happy with the changes it has brought to my Bible study. I am still exploring and learning to use it as I should but I for one think it is a great improvement and look forward to the coming features and changes in L4. By doing things this way we get a more direct voice in the end product and don't have to wait years to see the features and changes we want. I can totally sympathize with the users that are having performance issues. I struggled with performance issues on an old laptop from the time I purchased Logos 3.
I'm rambling I know, I just wanted to put my two cents in and let Bob Pritchett and the entire development team and staff at Logos that I am one very pleased customer who has been using there product for over 3 years and have no intentions of abandoning ship over a few teething problems.
I'll just climb down off my soap box now and take my meds.
HP DV7-3085dx Laptop, Intel i7 @ 1.6 Ghz, 6 Gigs of DDR3 memory, GeForce 230M Video with 1 Gig memory, 500 Gig HD, 17" Display, Windows 7
Scholars Platinum.
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
I'm not saying we made the right call, or picked the exact right moment for each action...just talking about what influenced us.
Bob,
thanks for chiming in...as always; it's a real eye opener when we get to hear the behind-the-scenes info.
Thanks for a great product....your efforts are appreciated, even by this V3/V4 user. [Y]
Keep doing what you're doing to keep Logos healthy!
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
0 -
Arthur Balis said:
I laughed at the salesman who promised me the upgrade to Vista would come free in the mail.
I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP. Win 7 is obviously better, but it's sad watching people jumping on the, "I haven't used Vista but hate it anyway." bandwagon. My entire family is perfectly happy with it, and it has caused us all about as many problems as XP has, which is very few.
But I digress... back to talking about L4
I love it. I'm glad this thread has suddenly appeared, because I'm also getting a kick out of using it and really wanted to say something about it. I've so far only made suggestions on this forum, but I'd like to say 'good job' to Logos, because L4 has struck an excellent balance, making bible study both simple and deep. If a goal of the Logos crew is to bring God glory through the creation of bible study tools, then in my mind they've certainly done that well with L4.0 -
Bob Pritchett said:DeniseBarnhart said:
And on the other, they delight in keeping customers in the dark as long as feasible, until the customers are at just the right boiling point.
Sorry -- that's not our intention. Until Logos 4, we've run almost every beta publicly, and we're right up front about most things we're doing. (Pre-pub is a pretty good advance notice system of what books we're doing, for example!)
Past experience has shown us, though, that there's a cost to dribbling a product out in public beta. For one things, sales of the existing product dry up when people anticipate a new one, even if you promise free updates for a period. (But it's hard to predict when the beta will end, which makes it hard to even make that promise.)
In the past we've ended a very public beta process with barely enough cash to make payroll. (Years ago -- that wasn't an issue this time.)
We did toy with naming Logos 4 something completely new -- because to us it is in many ways a v1.0 product. It's like the original Mac following the Apple IIe. It's not just the next release in a series, though, like the Mac, it is the "next flagship product." While we are improving and adding to Logos 4 constantly, I don't see this period as an extended beta, I see it as a finished v1.0 product with constant updates and improvements. I can see how, from the perspective of a Logos 3 user looking for feature parity, it's not fully baked. But someone with no Logos 3 experience would see it differently.
Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4.
However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users. So a lot of our thought about Logos 4 -- and about when it was "better" than Logos 3 -- had to do with meeting the needs of tomorrow's user. Because shipping Logos 4 takes NOTHING away from Logos 3 users -- you still have Logos 3, and can wait for Logos 4. But for new users, the question is, was Logos 4 yet a more compelling purchase / experience than Logos 3? And our belief was that it was, with easier installation, less confusing activation, simpler, streamlined interface, etc. The fact that sentence diagramming and prayer lists weren't there yet didn't outweigh the benefits of not frustrating new customers with our 2001-era interface and installation process.
I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users. You are very important to us, and we're taking your concerns seriously and addressing them. I'm just trying to provide some explanation of the subjective and complicated decision making process. I'm not saying we made the right call, or picked the exact right moment for each action...just talking about what influenced us.
-- Bob
Bob, it is my experience as I show Logos4 to potential new users, they get more excited about it than they did about LDLS3. I think a lot has to do with the "look", but honestly, I think that you guys succeeded in making the learning curve a little less steep. I saw a lot of people who were excited about LDLS3 quit and only use it sporadically because of that learning curve. The iPhone support goes a long way toward picking up new customers as well.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Jacob Hantla said:
Bob, it is my experience as I show Logos4 to potential new users, they get more excited about it than they did about LDLS3. I think a lot has to do with the "look", but honestly, I think that you guys succeeded in making the learning curve a little less steep. I saw a lot of people who were excited about LDLS3 quit and only use it sporadically because of that learning curve. The iPhone support goes a long way toward picking up new customers as well.
I think as well that the tighter integration of visuals has gone a long way towards appealing towards the larger market. Let's face it, the vast majority of potential users are not scholars. Yet, when when you read Bible software comparisons, a lot of the reasons to choose one package over another is often scholarly based. Now, I'm not saying that we should "dumb down" Logos Bible software, but the reality is that most users don't care or know how to use academically orientied stuff. They want some good commentaries, cross references, pictures, maps, etc. Combine this with multiple platforms (i.e. iPhone, Mac), you have a great combination.
I think the danger is that Bible software becomes the domain of academics and can even be a bit snobbish. It really grinds my carrots when I read academics slam Logos by claiming that a lot of what Logos offers shouldn't appeal to people and then they go on about some elite resource that they have. The truth of the matter is what they are bragging about having is probably something I want for my studies, but I know the vast majority of my friends don't care about half of what I now own on Logos and other Bible software programmes.
The best scenario is to keep a strong team of academics involved to keep Logos on the cutting edge, while keeping it within the grasp of everyone else. I think Logos 4 does this very well. Kudos for Bob and the team for what you are doing. I can guarantee you that others in the Bible software world are taking note of some of the cutting edge things you are doing like multiple platforms, cloud computing, developing a truckload of resources, etc. They are either taking note believing that their current strategy is correct, or they are going to come up with similar innovative ideas.
0 -
Bob,
Thanks for your comments and for interacting with us. I have been very critical but I see a positive upside to Logos 4. So thanks for trying to let us understand what has, is and will be going on.
Bob Pritchett said:While we are improving and adding to Logos 4 constantly, I don't see this period as an extended beta, I see it as a finished v1.0 product with constant updates and improvements. I can see how, from the perspective of a Logos 3 user looking for feature parity, it's not fully baked. But someone with no Logos 3 experience would see it differently.
I would disagree with your belief that new customers would see things differently. There are a few things that new customers will miss greatly. Printing is a key one, with great limitations there. And the overall performance on many systems. I would bet there are more than a few new customers who were like me frustrated with the performance. It is better in the beta of 4.0a, but still not yet up to the speed of many other Bible software applications or v. 3.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4.
However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users.
I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users.
It would be hard for me to imagine New-Users are on par with Existing-Users in revenue terms for Logos. Between L3ers moving to L4 and L3/L4 users purchasing add-ons and prepubs (I'd imagine new-users are not near as likely to do this) I'm surprised "we" are ONLY "pretty well balanced" in revenue generation.
-You'd have to also take into account the word-of-mouth advertising that L3 users moving to L4 will generate. All those things added together ought to significantly outweigh ALL New-Users. IMO (always a chance I don't know what I'm talking about)
I've heard a few times now about how L4 is "focused" on New-Users, but then how us L3 "old timers" shouldn't fret about it, "we're still pretty important."
------------------------------------------------------------------
Just my rantings, but I think L4 is a great program and I look forward to it becoming even better. I just start to feel (somtimes) that those of us who have helped grow Logos (through our purchases) are now (or maybe just becoming) a second thought.
0 -
Joel said:
I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP. Win 7 is obviously better, but it's sad watching people jumping on the, "I haven't used Vista but hate it anyway." bandwagon. My entire family is perfectly happy with it, and it has caused us all about as many problems as XP has, which is very few.
Yes, I can remember all of the negative comments about Windows ME which came on my old computer though I didn't experience those problems. The only problem I had with ME which finally drove me to install Xp was that it didn't display Syriac and Ethiopic properly. I suppose there are those who will always complain. I complain too. I don't think L4 is nearly on a par with L3 for my use though it has some very nice features L3 didn't have. I do, however, expect that this will be rectified and will therefore simply report the problems.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:
It would be hard for me to imagine New-Users are on par with Existing-Users in revenue terms for Logos.
It wouldn't surprise me when you think of the seminary student making their first purchase and minister's minimum base packagge being at least mid-range. If Logos does not succeed in the new users arena, add-ins and word-of-mouth dries up quite quickly. Then again, I may be biased because Logos 4 is the first version to handle differences in versification and canon sufficiently well that I don't feel like a second-class user.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Wow, you must have some information the President of Logos Bob P. does not have. Hmmm.. who should I believe has the most accurate data??? such a tough question to answer.... Random user or Company President...Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:Bob Pritchett said:Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4.
However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users.
I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users.
It would be hard for me to imagine New-Users are on par with Existing-Users in revenue terms for Logos. Between L3ers moving to L4 and L3/L4 users purchasing add-ons and prepubs (I'd imagine new-users are not near as likely to do this) I'm surprised "we" are ONLY "pretty well balanced" in revenue generation.
-You'd have to also take into account the word-of-mouth advertising that L3 users moving to L4 will generate. All those things added together ought to significantly outweigh ALL New-Users. IMO (always a chance I don't know what I'm talking about)
I've heard a few times now about how L4 is "focused" on New-Users, but then how us L3 "old timers" shouldn't fret about it, "we're still pretty important."
0 -
Joe Miller said:
Wow, you must have some information the President of Logos Bob P. does not have. Hmmm.. who should I believe has the most accurate data??? such a tough question to answer.... Random user or Company President...
[:|]
0 -
Joe Miller said:
Wow, you must have some information the President of Logos Bob P. does not have. Hmmm.. who should I believe has the most accurate data??? such a tough question to answer.... Random user or Company President...
Joe, that's not terribly fair.
Bob was talking about parity of revenue for the base packages in the roll out of v4. Jeremiah was talking about general revenue for the company. We do know from past statements from Bob, that very few purchasers of base packages go on to buy other resources. We do know that very many of the users on this forum have invested significantly in resources other than packages over the past few years, esp. through the pre-pub program.
So while there may be parity over the course of these couple of months, it can safely be assumed (book budgets allowing) that pre-existing users will continue to provide Logos with a significant revenue stream through their continued addition of new resources to their libraries.
0 -
Damian McGrath said:
Bob was talking about parity of revenue for the base packages in the roll out of v4. Jeremiah was talking about general revenue for the company
Damian,
I believe that Bob WAS talking about "overall general revenue" for the company.
His quote:
However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users.
I think that Joe was pointing out the arrogance (or seeming arrogance) that Jeremiah displayed by questioning Bob's calculations about revenue, user base, etc...
I have to be honest...I must agree...it would seem that I'm going with the president of the company in question, who has the data to back up his statements on this one... [:D]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
0 -
Robert Pavich said:
I believe that Bob WAS talking about "overall general revenue" for the company.
Thanks Bob - you may well be right as I re-read the statement with my new glasses on.....
0 -
[<:o)]Damian McGrath said:Robert Pavich said:I believe that Bob WAS talking about "overall general revenue" for the company.
Thanks Bob - you may well be right as I re-read the statement with my new glasses on.....
0 -
Damian McGrath said:
Thanks Bob - you may well be right as I re-read the statement with my new glasses on.....
Is your cane on order or are you going straight to the walker?
0 -
Jacob Hantla said:
I saw a lot of people who were excited about LDLS3 quit and only use it sporadically because of that learning curve.
Jacob,
That describes me perfectly. I got L3 and was very excited. But, I couldn't figure out how to make things work. I tried the help files and couldn't understand them. I tried old newsgroups but rarely got answers to my questions that helped me. I spend several hundreds of dollars upgrading to Gold and Original Languages - at first thinking the program would help me do good research then hoping additional resources would help me do good research. Eventually, I realized I didn't understand how the program worked and settled down to using it a s a prayer reminder and Bible reader. I tried to get people interested in it, but my inability to show how I used it always stood in the way.
I found the transition to L4 challenging as I was part of the Beta and we had no help files at all and other features that either broke or weren't working at all - e.g., syntax search. BUT, I've kept at it - partly out of my commitment to the beta trial and partly because I started finding I could do things I wanted to do in L4 that I couldn't understand how to do in L3. Now, L4 is not perfected and has more features to come, but I'm already (I know 3 months in vs. 1 month) doing much more in L4 than I ever did in L3. I'm blown away by the power now and the potential later. I'm showing people real results from my research and study and they are getting excited. This is what, I believe, Bob and his team wanted to see happen: More people doing Bible study - yes more profit for Logos, but more profit so they can make an even better product. If L3 had reached its saturation point, then L4 was a necessary step for the company and a beneficial step for the Kingdom.
When I transitioned to Microsoft Word from Wordperfect 15 years ago, I kept both running for a few months. There were things I knew how to do in WP that I couldn't figure out in MS Word, but after a few months I removed WP from my computer. That's how I view L3 to L4.
I know the transition is hard and there are problems with some systems in terms of speed and with some users in terms of features, but overall, this new implementation process will yield a product that is much more "Designed by me" than any other I've seen. The features users use and want will be there. Makes me think of a democracy.
Chris
0 -
Philip Spitzer said:Damian McGrath said:
Thanks Bob - you may well be right as I re-read the statement with my new glasses on.....
Is your cane on order or are you going straight to the walker?
I refused to go with bi-focals or progressives - I had to get ones that magnify..... For two weeks, I was barely able to read the lectionary or prayers in church...
And I am young (-ish).
BTW. Sorry, Joe.
0 -
Chris Elford said:Jacob Hantla said:
I saw a lot of people who were excited about LDLS3 quit and only use it sporadically because of that learning curve.
That describes me perfectly. I got L3 and was very excited. But, I couldn't figure out how to make things work. I tried the help files and couldn't understand them. ... I spend several hundreds of dollars upgrading to Gold and Original Languages - at first thinking the program would help me do good research then hoping additional resources would help me do good research. Eventually, I realized I didn't understand how the program worked and settled down to using it a s a prayer reminder and Bible reader. ...
That pretty much describes me, too. I was basically using L3 as a glorified concordance.
Chris Elford said:I found the transition to L4 challenging as I was part of the Beta and we had no help files at all and other features that either broke or weren't working at all - e.g., syntax search. BUT, I've kept at it - partly out of my commitment to the beta trial and partly because I started finding I could do things I wanted to do in L4 that I couldn't understand how to do in L3. Now, L4 is not perfected and has more features to come, but I'm already (I know 3 months in vs. 1 month) doing much more in L4 than I ever did in L3.
I've only been using it for about six weeks now, but I'd also concur. I know L4 better than I ever knew L3, and can do more with it. There's still more to learn, and I'm looking forward to more of the functionality being back so I can learn how to do things in a simpler way that I was never able to do before.
0 -
Damian McGrath said:
Damian McGrath"]Thanks Bob - you may well be right as I re-read the statement with my new glasses on.....
Damian,
Just wait until your my age..arggg...I have to take my glasses off most of the time; I spend all day at work on a computer and can't even see it with my glasses on!
Enjoy your youth where everything works (at least fairly) correctly... [:D]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
0 -
Thank you again for your response on forum. Your comments about paying the bills are fair of course and I imagined something like that to be the case.
Bob Pritchett said:We did toy with naming Logos 4 something completely new -- because to us it is in many ways a v1.0 product.
This is the key thing isn't it. Even using L4 briefly it becomes very clear this is a different product. It is conceptually different. That's a great thing to do. The target audience of the new user, the potential to increase depth of study among many people, as a pastor it is a thrilling idea. I look to the day when the whole congregation are sitting with logos on their phones checking my greek exegesis is sound and when they begin the service uploading their prayerlists and answers to our church's logos central and then praying over them together as the service ends
Well, there's a few upgrades to think about.I pray your progress with L4 is blessed.
Bob Pritchett said:Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4.
I hope that last sentence doesn't remain true for long.
Bob Pritchett said:I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users. You are very important to us, and we're taking your concerns seriously and addressing them.
I once used and highly recommended a program called Mindmanager. Then came an upgrade which caused a lot of heat in the forums [:D] They had taken (a very good) decision to make the program a business one, to expand the audience. I didn't realise it at the time, but the loss of some features was actually the beginning of a move to a different product aimed at different users. Over a couple of years this became much clearer and today I don't even have Mindmanager installed. Its a good piece of sw, just not for me. This is what I think may be happening with L4.
So i'd love to hear/read more about the concept being fleshed out with L4. Not trade secrets. Well, no, I'd be happy to hear those too but I don't think that will happen. [:)] So could you point me to blog/forum/ other thing where I could understand more?
Thank you again.
0
