I'm blown away at the power of L4: a skeptic repents
Comments
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Edward hyndman said:
the potential to increase depth of study among many people, as a pastor it is a thrilling idea. I look to the day when the whole congregation are sitting with logos on their phones checking my greek exegesis is sound
Gee Ed, my Pastor's have never appreciated my critiquing their Greek
To often Pastor's use the phrase "a better translation would be", when what they really should be saying is "if I translate it this way, it supports my thesis". Alas as a former Pastor, I probably fell into that trap as well. But I must say, it is so nice to be able to check my current Pastor's greek use on my iPhone.0 -
Yikes, I am there too.Robert Pavich said:Just wait until your my age..arggg...I have to take my glasses off most of the time; I spend all day at work on a computer and can't even see it with my glasses on!
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I'm a new user of Logos and thought I would give my opinion. I bought L3 Scholars edition, installed it and one week later L4 was released. I was furious that the salesperson did not tell me L4 was due in a week. She made a presentation at my church and never mentioned a new release was imminent. I've never installed new software on the day it was released since I have worked in software development for many years and know about initial release issues. But I didn't listen to my experience and went for L4 figuring I didn't know L3 anyway and Logos is such a reputable company that there is no way they would release buggy software. So far not such a bad decision, because I have the benefit of having access to L3 and L4, but sadly found that my assumption of not releasing buggy software wasn't true.
Reading these forums has been a real eye opener for me and provided some answers without spending time on the phone. My phone calls have not resulted in answers, nor have my emails. Being told to go to the forum is unacceptable, but I guess the best alternative for now. The anger and frustration of current users of Logos is understandable. As a new user I like the product, but sadly my initial impression of the company isn't too positive. People remember negative experiences a lot longer than they remember the positive. It will be awhile before I consider adding new resources. The one I do have, the Steve Green Midi Hymnal is not integrated in L4. I expect to see those hymns in the Music list, but that is not happening yet and so far support hasn't been able to say if they ever will.
So tomorrow I'm giving a Logos 4 demo to a Bible study group at my church. My advice to them will be yes, get Logos if you can afford it...but not now. Wait a few months for more fixes and realize this is computer software and yes there will be problems and a learning curve and you had better have a pc that can handle the load.
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Joel said:
I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP.
Ditto. I think it's all an issue of perception in the press and the blogosphere. Once Vista got a reputation for being unstable from a few users complaining about problems with it early on, that reputation just kept getting rehashed over and over and became stuck in people's minds. Vista has been fine for me, and I'm an ultra power user. Granted, I waited to upgrade until SP2 was available, and I bought it as a clean install on a brand new computer. That's the only way I ever upgrade to a new OS (except service releases).
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Frank Bristow said:
I was furious that the salesperson did not tell me L4 was due in a week. She made a presentation at my church and never mentioned a new release was imminent.
I'm pretty sure she didn't know the release was imminent. The sales person I talked to at Logos HQ on the day of release was surprised by it and made the comment that I knew more about the product than him.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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I installed Vista on two older desktops. Vista crushed both systems and I was forced to trash both. So I regret to inform you that your perception is just that, your perception, but the shortcomings of Vista was not just a bad internet rumor for some people it was a reality.Rosie Perera said:Joel said:I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP.
Ditto. I think it's all an issue of perception in the press and the blogosphere.
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Joe Miller said:
I installed Vista on two older desktops. Vista crushed both systems and I was forced to trash both. So I regret to inform you that your perception is just that, your perception, but the shortcomings of Vista was not just a bad internet rumor for some people it was a reality.Rosie Perera said:Joel said:I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP.
Ditto. I think it's all an issue of perception in the press and the blogosphere.
I'm sorry to hear that. I didn't mean the bad reputation wasn't just a rumor made up out of whole cloth. Many people did have issues with it, bad ones like yours. Reputations do get started somewhere legitimate, but they live on after the problems have been fixed. And they get magnified beyond the instances that initiated them, due to the miracle of replication in the blogosphere. I had heard of Vista's bad reputation and I "knew" it was a piece of crap without having any personal experience with it. I was disappointed to be forced to upgrade to it when I bought a new computer. But then I was pleasantly surprised. Perhaps I was just lucky, but I do think waiting until SP2 had something to do with it. And like I said, I never install new operating systems on old computers. (New wine in old wineskins, and all that...) Not that that's much comfort to you after the fact. I'm sorry you were one of the few who had a bad experience.
Joe Miller said:I regret to inform you that your perception is just that, your perception
Seems you enjoyed informing me, actually... [:)] I never claimed that my perception was anything other than my perception. Of course it was; that's by definition. I even acknowledged that I knew I wasn't speaking universal truth ex cathedra when I said "I think..."
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Joe Miller said:
I installed Vista on two older desktops. Vista crushed both systems and I was forced to trash both. So I regret to inform you that your perception is just that, your perception, but the shortcomings of Vista was not just a bad internet rumor for some people it was a reality.Rosie Perera said:Joel said:I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP.
Ditto. I think it's all an issue of perception in the press and the blogosphere.
Did you check the system requirements before attempting to install Vista? I think that even if they were marginal I would hesitate to attempt it. I have Vista and have no problems whatsoever with it.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Rosie, I am glad you realize problems with Vista were more than internet rumors. MS made some big mistakes with Vista.... it was like "Windows Me" all over again.. yuck.
George, can't tell you what the specs were since both are long gone now. My wife uses my old laptop with XP and when that dies, she will get a Mac.
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Todd Phillips said:Frank Bristow said:
I was furious that the salesperson did not tell me L4 was due in a week. She made a presentation at my church and never mentioned a new release was imminent.
I'm pretty sure she didn't know the release was imminent. The sales person I talked to at Logos HQ on the day of release was surprised by it and made the comment that I knew more about the product than him.
She probably did know the release of L4 was imminent if she was a Logos HQ employee. I'm sure they were all told to keep mum about the new version until Nov 2 when it was released, just as all of us beta testers were. The company can't exactly stop selling the previous version just because a new one is due shortly. They need to keep a steady revenue stream coming in in order to pay for the development costs of the new version. They should have some sort of discounted upgrade cost for people who bought the previous version within the past 60 days or something, though. I'm not sure whether they do, but many companies do that kind of thing. It's only fair.
I'm surprised by the comments of the sales person you talked to on release day. Perhaps it was a brand new employee, hired in anticipation of the increased demand for sales that would occur once the new version hit the market. Perhaps they didn't do a very good job of training their new salespeople about the product if you knew more about it than he did.
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I'm sure the staff knew L4 was coming soon, but my conversations with sales staff the morning L4 released were exactly the same. They didn't know the launch date until it launched, and knew no more information than I did (actually, less). I consider this to be a mistake by TPTB, but sales staff were definately kept largely in the dark.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:Bob Pritchett said:
Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4.
However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users.
I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users.
It would be hard for me to imagine New-Users are on par with Existing-Users in revenue terms for Logos. Between L3ers moving to L4 and L3/L4 users purchasing add-ons and prepubs (I'd imagine new-users are not near as likely to do this) I'm surprised "we" are ONLY "pretty well balanced" in revenue generation.
-You'd have to also take into account the word-of-mouth advertising that L3 users moving to L4 will generate. All those things added together ought to significantly outweigh ALL New-Users. IMO (always a chance I don't know what I'm talking about)
I've heard a few times now about how L4 is "focused" on New-Users, but then how us L3 "old timers" shouldn't fret about it, "we're still pretty important."
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Just my rantings, but I think L4 is a great program and I look forward to it becoming even better. I just start to feel (somtimes) that those of us who have helped grow Logos (through our purchases) are now (or maybe just becoming) a second thought.
Thanks for your contribution and response. However i must say i think you missed the spirit of what Bob was trying to say. I will leave it at that. Ted
"Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4"."I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users. You are very important to us, and we're taking your concerns seriously and addressing them. I'm just trying to provide some explanation of the subjective and complicated decision making process. I'm not saying we made the right call, or picked the exact right moment for each action...just talking about what influenced us".
-- Bob
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Joe Miller said:
Wow, you must have some information the President of Logos Bob P. does not have. Hmmm.. who should I believe has the most accurate data??? such a tough question to answer.... Random user or Company President
Need i say Joe i agree with you wholeheartedly[Y]
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Joe Miller said:
George, can't tell you what the specs were since both are long gone now. My wife uses my old laptop with XP and when that dies, she will get a Mac.
Extend my condolences to your wife when she makes the move.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Mark Barnes said:
I'm sure the staff knew L4 was coming soon, but my conversations with sales staff the morning L4 released were exactly the same. They didn't know the launch date until it launched, and knew no more information than I did (actually, less). I consider this to be a mistake by TPTB, but sales staff were definately kept largely in the dark.
Perhaps they really didn't know. I was in the beta program and know for a fact that only those who were verified bloggers and who intended to blog the release were given that information. It seems to have been on a need to know basis.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Edward hyndman said:
today I don't even have Mindmanager installed. Its a good piece of sw, just not for me. This is what I think may be happening with L4.
What features are lost in V4 (that aren't coming) that were in LDLS3 that make you think this is turning into a product that won't work for you?
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Thanks again Bob for your comments.
I remember at one point during the Beta, that Bob mentioned that there was a thought to release it prior to the end of the year. One of the reasonings was to allow seminary students and teachers time to get acclimated to L4 before the next term. I am not in a seminary - yet - but remembering being a college student I appreciate the thought so that I would have time to become acquainted with my new tools prior to needing them for class.
As for L4 being buggy? I too work in the software industry and have never-ever seen a software release that didn't have any bugs even with extensive testing and Beta users. Loading a piece of software into any environment is different for every scenario. You can come close to similar setups, but I seriously doubt you have many setups that are identical. Loading Logos is no different. The reason because each of us is an individual and setup our computers to suit how we work with applications that allow us to get our work done. I won't even go into drivers and hardware variances.
I had crashes in the Beta process, and I expected them - never like them but it is the nature of the beast.. In the release I have had hiccups, but nothing that I would say was a show stopper, even though I am using a system that is 5 to 6 years old. L4 is still blazingly fast and responsive compared to L3.
As to whether new and existing users balance out in the revenue, I have to go with Bob as well. I have seen the customer support side and although it is cheaper to keep an existing customer then to go get a new one or replace one. L4 and Logos history in software and customer service have a leg up in attrtacting more people. So I can see the balance.
I have never seen a CEO that is so willing to come out and communicate in a real manner like Bob does. I appreciate his candor and that of others from Logos. Bob cares about Logos and the Logos family there in Bellingham and around the world. But he cares about providing the best product to do Biblical Studies available. For that I am eternally grateful.
Thanks again Bob and Logos.
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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George Somsel said:Mark Barnes said:
I'm sure the staff knew L4 was coming soon, but my conversations with sales staff the morning L4 released were exactly the same. They didn't know the launch date until it launched, and knew no more information than I did (actually, less). I consider this to be a mistake by TPTB, but sales staff were definately kept largely in the dark.
Perhaps they really didn't know. I was in the beta program and know for a fact that only those who were verified bloggers and who intended to blog the release were given that information. It seems to have been on a need to know basis.
George, thanks for the clarification. It wasn't all beta testers who were told the release date, as I had previously implied, only ones who were verified bloggers committed to blogging about the release on the release date and who signed a non-disclosure agreement about it. And even we were only told that date a week ahead of time. They were being very careful not to let news leak out too early, so I can see why they might have kept their sales staff in the dark. It might have made it difficult for them to stay motivated about selling L3 all the way up to the end of its availability. No sense making it a lame duck before its time.
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LOL.. I will do that. But most people send their condolence with a card, flowers, and a monetary gift. Do you need my address? ;-)George Somsel said:Joe Miller said:George, can't tell you what the specs were since both are long gone now. My wife uses my old laptop with XP and when that dies, she will get a Mac.
Extend my condolences to your wife when she makes the move.
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I, like you George, am willing to give the benefit of the doubt because while, like all people, they have made mistakes, they have never demonstrated a penchant for outright deception. Unfortunately, some do not take that approach and prefer to assume the worst of our brothers and sisters at Logos. That is truly disheartening to me...George Somsel said:Mark Barnes said:I'm sure the staff knew L4 was coming soon, but my conversations with sales staff the morning L4 released were exactly the same. They didn't know the launch date until it launched, and knew no more information than I did (actually, less). I consider this to be a mistake by TPTB, but sales staff were definately kept largely in the dark.
Perhaps they really didn't know. I was in the beta program and know for a fact that only those who were verified bloggers and who intended to blog the release were given that information. It seems to have been on a need to know basis.
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George Somsel said:Mark Barnes said:
I'm sure the staff knew L4 was coming soon, but my conversations with sales staff the morning L4 released were exactly the same. They didn't know the launch date until it launched, and knew no more information than I did (actually, less). I consider this to be a mistake by TPTB, but sales staff were definately kept largely in the dark.
Perhaps they really didn't know. I was in the beta program and know for a fact that only those who were verified bloggers and who intended to blog the release were given that information. It seems to have been on a need to know basis.
I realise it was on a need to know basis. My point was that of all the people who need to know, your sales staff come near the top of the list. At the absolute minimum I would have expected them to have a thorough briefing the day before release. I rang at 6:30am on the day of release and the staff knew nothing apart from what was on the website.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
I realise it was on a need to know basis. My point was that of all the people who need to know, your sales staff come near the top of the list. At the absolute minimum I would have expected them to have a thorough briefing the day before release. I rang at 6:30am on the day of release and the staff knew nothing apart from what was on the website.
Having been on the beta, and seeing the roll-out coming with the count-down, I was surprised that sales didn't know more than they actually did. But they didn't, and in the first couple of days communicated at least some incorrect information. They were brought up to speed quickly, but it was a bit surprising to me how little they knew initially.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Mark Barnes said:
I realise it was on a need to know basis. My point was that of all the people who need to know, your sales staff come near the top of the list. At the absolute minimum I would have expected them to have a thorough briefing the day before release. I rang at 6:30am on the day of release and the staff knew nothing apart from what was on the website.
Things don't always function the way we think they should. I know the morph search doesn't function the way I think it should.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I can confirm that same thing about Sales being "in the dark" until launch. It was hard to believe that they really didn't know what the beta tester-bloggers knew.
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Joan Korte said:
I can confirm that same thing about Sales being "in the dark" until launch. It was hard to believe that they really didn't know what the beta tester-bloggers knew.
Yeah, even a few days after launch I had to teach them how unlock worked. They thought that I would still be getting an unlock script in the mail. It was a fruitful conversation for her
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Difficult question to answer Jacob since there is a lot I don't know. What leads me to think L4 conceptually different is not missing features by themselves, but the way L4 seems to work (as it stands) and the comments of developers on the forums. There seems an intention to present an essentially new sw aimed stongly at a new user audience who is not already doing close Bible Study. Coupled with comments re features like nested pop-ups, and with what seems to me to be a different approach to presenting/printing arrangements within the program, I am guessing, (it is only a guess) that logos will have to balance in favour of a kind of "easy - level - user" need. (Not a bad thing ofcourse, one criticism of L3 is that it is complex to use well). I dont know this just as I did not realise it fully with MM at the time. Perhaps another factor in my thinking is that MM had a similar "upgrade/beta/new-product" release at the time with similar responses.
The final factor is "wont work for me". That of course depends more on me than Logos
I am learning I am not a usual user. I seem to require printing and make my own use of the notes and verse lists and prayer-lists in ways others dont. Will L4 be as usable for those things? I simply dont know. Thats why I was looking for more on the concept behind L4.0 -
Edward hyndman said:
There seems an intention to present an essentially new sw aimed stongly at a new user audience who is not already doing close Bible Study.
I'm not sure that's the case. Yes, L4 works differently than L3, and it's easier on the eye and more intuitive, but that doesn't mean it's less powerful. In fact, I'm finding it giving me more, and doing so more easily. Logos has not abandoned loyal users, or designed a program without them in mind. In fact, as a long-time user of Logos, I'm very, very happy with L4 (even with it's current short-comings).
As I've said in another thread, for me the adjustment from L3 to L4 was easier than the adjustment from L2 to L3. L3 had some very powerful features, but they were very difficult to use. And while L4 has some things missing that I wish were present (SRA's and PRA's), I don't miss them that much, and certainly not enough to make me use L3 (which I still have installed, BTW).
I'd encourage you to learn the new tool, and to try to use it the way it was designed. After that improvise. Like playing Jazz, first you learn the new scale (and it feels clunky at first) but after you learn it, you can improvise in a way that works. So watch the videos, read the WIKI, look for tips, and try it as designed first. Then see if you can make it do what the developers didn't consider. You may find L4 both easier and more powerful than L3, as I have.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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ahh the pastor's dilema; I want the disciples of tomorrow to be better and smarter than me, just not while im still teaching them!
[:D]
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all fair points Richard. I am waiting and seeing.
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Richard DeRuiter said:
As I've said in another thread, for me the adjustment from L3 to L4 was easier than the adjustment from L2 to L3. L3 had some very powerful features, but they were very difficult to use. And while L4 has some things missing that I wish were present (SRA's and PRA's), I don't miss them that much, and certainly not enough to make me use L3 (which I still have installed, BTW).
Surely you jest. I didn't experience any significant problem transitioning from L2 to L3 while I'm still finding the morph search impossible. Yes, L4 has some nice features not in L3, but until it takes care of notes and gets the morph search to operate correctly it isn't useful for more than a reader.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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