BUG: Sentence diagramming

When I select two adjacent words in a text and drop them on a "modifier" (for example) target, the words are changed from readable spacing to being shoved together and overlapping at the target location. Here are screenshots.

This first one is the setup, with the target modifier being hovered over and the two words I'm going to drop selected:

The next one is as I'm dragging the selected words over the modifier, just before I drop them. Note the modifier is highlighted indicating that Logos sees that that's where I'm trying to drop them. Note also that the two words still have their pre-drag and drop spacing.

This is the result. Note how the words have been pushed together.

This isn't the worst result I've seen - you can still recognize the words. More often than not, with shorter words, you can't distinguish them after they've been dropped.

Is this the expected behavior or a bug? I expect some folks will say I shouldn't be dropping two words like this, but I'm following how we've done it in our exegesis classes (basically Schreiner).

Thanks,

Donnie

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MJ. Smith

some folks will say I shouldn't be dropping two words like this

I've been working on the rules for moving from one diagramming convention to another - so I've read more than my share of "indent 3 spaces", "indent 8 spaces" recently. And you know I love logic 'cause it's all about the rules. So let me take you up on your challenge: You shouldn't be doing ANYTHING your teacher doesn't like, that isn't how you learned or that you don't find useful. So BE CAREFUL about those 2 words in a single slot.[;)]

Yes, I would call it a bug. Have you tried joining them before you drop them i.e. trick the diagrammer into thinking it's one word?

Jack Caviness

Is this the expected behavior or a bug?

Definitely a bug. Conducted some experiments with the same text and words. If I deleted the word "Modifier" manually, the placement seems normal each time, though separated a bit too far for my tastes. If I use the words to overwrite "Modifier", placement is a bit unpredictable, sometimes crowded together, sometimes with good spacing. If I join the two words first, placement is always just like they looked after joining and prior to moving. This is consistent whether "Modifier" is manually deleted or overwritten.

Mac OS 10.7.5, L5.0b Beta 1

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/449728#Comment_449728

Thanks for the testing Jack

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/449908#Comment_449908

Thanks for the testing Jack

Donnie has been very helpful to me. Pleased I could return the favor. Besides, realized that I had not tried diagramming with this Beta.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/449908#Comment_449908

Thanks for the testing Jack

Amen. I'm always worried I've missed something when I think I've found a bug.

Donnie

Thomas Ball

I too can replicate the behavior, however, I'm curious if this was not the behavior in L4? I haven't used the feature much, and without asking around I wouldn't know. I took Greek a long time ago and I can't remember if modifiers can be more than one word (aside from a noun w/ an article), as it seems dropping just one word here works fine (obviously because it has nothing to collide with), and what it is trying to do is force the two words into one space.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/450274#Comment_450274

I can't remember if modifiers can be more than one word

Why not? If a phrase modifies a word, why force the user to consume multiple lines of a diagram when a single line will accomplish the same thing in a much clearer manner?

Since it has always been my habit to manually remove the "Modifier" tag. It is nothing but a nuisance anyway. If I drag a modifier stick from the tool bar, I probably already know that the modifier goes on the line. If the user does not already know this, he/she is probably not ready to construct a sentence diagram.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/450274#Comment_450274

I too can replicate the behavior, however, I'm curious if this was not the behavior in L4?

I can't answer that. I don't have an L4 installation any longer, and I didn't do any serious sentence diagramming in L4. The point I made in my original post in this thread is that there is no official, single, indisputable standard for diagramming. Scheiner's approach (Interpreting the Pauline Epistles) allows for the simplicity of, for example, article+noun being placed together in a single location.

I need to do a lot more diagramming now, and I spend much more time moving stuff around and trying to make the diagram legible than constructing the diagram. This bug is one example of why I have to spend time doing that. I see lots of folks cranking out diagrams in BibleWorks, and I'm wondering if their solution in this space is not significantly stronger than L5. (I've never used BW.)

Donnie

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/450274#Comment_450274

I took Greek a long time ago and I can't remember if modifiers can be more than one word

Tommy, while I don't know Greek and I prefer other diagramming styles to Kellogg-Reed, most diagramming deliberately allows one to divide the elements down only as far as you need to. Some professors will define what they want down to the number of spaces; the better ones (my personal judgment) teach how to go down to the lowest level but only ask that you go deep enough to resolve the structural difficulty that caused you to diagram the sentence in the first place. The rest is just busy work (often fun busy work) anyway.

Okay, now that I have painted a big red bull's eye on myself regarding sentence diagramming, let me state that the reason I prefer other methods is (a) an arced dependency diagram takes less space and (b) the tree methods allow me to go down to the morpheme level if I need to. Neither implies Subject-Verb-Object as the standard form. The advantages to Kellogg-Reed in my opinion (a) many of us learned it early in our education so it is quickly recognized (b) there is an artistic element in its layout that allows the appreciation of a well-drawn diagram and (c) they can be flat out fun to do.

Now that I have irritated all diagrammers, I'm going to run for cover in my dentist's office...and remind people that there is a Faithlife group Logos Sentence Diagrams for discussions of diagrams and for sharing them (as soon as the feature is available). Everyone's favorite method/conventions will be warmly embraced.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/450274#Comment_450274

I too can replicate the behavior

Bump.

Can Tommy or someone else from Logos confirm that a case has been opened for this issue? And, better yet, comment on when it will be fixed?

I'm going to be doing much more sentence diagramming over the next several semesters (for school and teaching), and my productivity with the Logos implementation is quite low. I'm getting tempted to try Bibleworks since that seems to be what all the Greek experts on campus use for diagramming, but I have no real interest in going down that path.

Thanks,

Donnie

Thomas Ball

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455001#Comment_455001

I put in a case for it. In the meantime, and I know this is a bit more laborious, you can put the two words in individually rather than as a unit. If you situate them next to one another you should get the same effect.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455036#Comment_455036

you can put the two words in individually rather than as a unit

Better, remove the word "Modifier" (or whatever) prior to placing the joined words.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455108#Comment_455108

you can put the two words in individually rather than as a unit

Better, remove the word "Modifier" (or whatever) prior to placing the joined words.

What I would expect is that the size of the "box" which had contained the word "Modifier" before the drop but which contains 'n' words after the drop is adjusted to be the size of the "box" of text which was dropped onto it. The goal would be to retain the spacing of the dropped words after the drop.

What's happening now is that the dropped words are squished to fit into the size of the target "box." I wonder what happens if you drop a crazy long Greek word into one of those boxes.

Donnie

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455139#Comment_455139

I wonder what happens if you drop a crazy long Greek word into one of those boxes.

Interesting experiment:

Joined a group of 4 independent words

Attempted to overwrite "Modifier"

Took 3 unjoined adjacent words.

Attempted to overwrite "Modifier"

Inconsistent results—Sometimes it jammed the words together and deleted 'Modifier". Other times, "Modifier" was not overwritten.

Result: Best policy is to manually delete "Modifier" and then place the words on the stick—joined or unjoined.

Question for Logos—Have the programmers ever attempted to use this feature?

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/455348#Comment_455348

Question for Logos—Have the programmers ever attempted to use this feature?

Heh. Not to put too fine a point on it, but "Amen!"

Donnie