Logos vs the competition...

I would love some advice here as I'm torn as to which direction to go.

I've had a fairly small logos library as of a few years ago and overall really enjoy the logos desktop setup. However most of my bible study is now done on my iPad and iPhone. So I've been using OliveTree's BibleReader app (not trying to name drop here, it's just relavent information) and really enjoying it. It just feels like it was MADE to work on iOS devices.

I've played a bit with the Logos iOS app and it seems to have gotten better over time, but I've never quite been as excited about it as I have the other.

Now here's the issue. I'm still very early on in my investment of digital biblical resources and really just want to focus on one program as it seems inefficient to try and use multiple apps for the same general purpose (while splitting often times expensive resources between the two).

So I started considering putting all my focus on BibleReader, but can't get past the fact that overall the Logos library possibilites seem better and more up-to-date. Though often times a bit (and sometimes a lot) more expensive than the same resources at OliveTree, the fact that more titles are available here is a huge plus (the most important part is the content, as we all know).

Thankfully, as I mentioned, the Logos app is definitely getting better and while not quite on the same level as the BibleReader app in many respects, it's more than useable and in some ways becoming a strong contender. So at this point I'm just a bit torn.

So my main questions for anyone interested in sharing their 2 cents are:

1. Have you tried apps other than the Logos app and what were your overal findings (I just don't have enough personal experience with it yet to accurately compare)?

2. Do you think my Library concern is valid and has this played a role in choosing a single source for a digital bible study solution?

Thanks for any input. Your seasoned logos experience will really help me make a more informed decision as to which direction to head in.

Eric

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Mike Childs

Eric,

I have tried some other apps, but Logos is always going to be my Bible study program, both on computer, iPhone, and iPad. The reason is one that you give - the library concern.

Of course that is valid. What good is the app without the library resources that you need. The app is just a means to an end, which is to read the books. So the books are what counts, and nobody else can compete with the library resources available in Logos.

If all you are going to do is read the Bible text, and do a little concordance searching, it really doesn't matter which Bible program / app that you use. Go with whatever is cheapest. But if you are serious about your study, and need Bible Dictionaries, Commentaries, language tools, etc., then Logos is the best choice in my opinion.

Plus, I have used Logos for over 16 years now. It has been around for a while, and it will be around years from now. That protects my library from changes in computer technology. Logos will work with whatever comes in the future. The other guys, who knows?

Just my opinion.

DMB

I use two other mobile Bible programs. One is a perfect jewel of programming; almost needs to be enshrined as 'what software was meant to be'.

But that said, in addition to 'books', is that the Logos platform really seems to be just getting started. Some people decry the early steps in community sharing (me!), but I view myself as a tiny minority. The ability to 'share' Bible study, it just seems to me, is the absolute essense of Christianity. I think about large churches where it's easy to become forgotten, rural believers, special groups ... the list is endless. People think about their own Bible study, but what if you want to help others?

Then you add the directions that Proclaim is going with during-services 2-way communication. Wow. Really amazing what an active church is going to be able to do.

Sure, today, mobiles are still in the hands of the brave (both genders), but the direction that Logos (Bob really) is going just can't be beat.

I can't imagine having the choice now, and not at least keeping a toe in the water.

Steven Lang

1. Have you tried apps other than the Logos app and what were your overal findings (I just don't have enough personal experience with it yet to accurately compare)?

Eric I guess I am the wrong person to ask becuase I could never imagine using anything else but Logos! I have tried olive tree a while ago and I used Accordance on my Mac but they cannot compare to Logos in my opinion. The App really works great on the ipad.

2. Do you think my Library concern is valid and has this played a role in choosing a single source for a digital bible study solution?

I know that some products in Logos are more expensive than others but when you see how these products work in Logos the price in my opinion is no longer an issue. Logos is going to be around for a long time and your investment is not going to go to waste. I think its a no brainer personally, go with Logos!

Get a Bundle. But don't go overboard like I did . Go with the most inexpensive bundle that will fit your need and then add to it as you see fit. Many commentaries that I use were not part of bundles that I purchased such as Preach The Word, Baker's New Testament, MacArthur, James Montgomery Boice, etc. So if you start with a smaller package you can always add on. And you can always pay it off on the monthly plan which works well if you are strapped for cash and cannot pay 500 at once.

Thanks for any input. Your seasoned logos experience will really help me make a more informed decision as to which direction to head in.

I have been using Logos since 2006 and the more you use it and learn the different features the more you love it. I have spent thousands of dollars in over 7 years and have an extensive library that has been a tremendous blessing to me. I should be a Logos rep because I have convinced 6 friends to buy it LOL! So again I am probably the wrong person to speak to

I am sure you will not go wrong or be disappointed with Logos.

Steve

Mitchell

1. Have you tried apps other than the Logos app and what were your overal findings (I just don't have enough personal experience with it yet to accurately compare)?

Yes, and the Logos app isn't the best out there but as you say, it's steadily improving and is good enough to be usable at this point.

2. Do you think my Library concern is valid and has this played a role in choosing a single source for a digital bible study solution?

Absolutely. The two biggest factors in my choice of Logos were the availability of books and a commitment to run cross-platform. Those are the things that matter most in a long term investment. If the applications were particularly bad, that might negate them, but the software is good enough not to bother me and I'm happy with the progress that's being made.

3. Are the bundles the way to go versus purchasing your resources piece by piece? I was looking at the Platinum Package and wasn't sure if I would be buying 20% of bits I would use and 80% to clutter up my library.

You're the only person who can answer that question. When I was looking to purchase, I made an excel spreadsheet with all of the resources in all of the packages (I did some finagling with the HTML of the comparison page to get it) and ranked each book based on whether I need it, want it, or just might find it useful. I then we through the website and input the prices of those books if bought on their own. Most books in the packages didn't merit a rating, but even just the 20% or so that I would have needed to buy on their own added up to a fair bit. For me, the Platinum bundle (the Logos 4 one, not the new one) made the most sense, because for about the same price I got all those books I needed plus a bunch that I didn't need for school, but have come in handy to have. Yes, there's also a lot of filler that I will never touch, but even taking those out of the picture, the base package was the best decision.

Eric Weiss

A link to some forthcoming reviews of, and comparisons with, a competitor. Your choice may come down to what you want to use the program for and what resources you want to have and use.

Eric Hamm

Thanks everyone for so many great responses in such a short period of time (this is certainly and active forum).

I think for me it really does come down to...

1. Access to the most and most up-to-date resources

2. Knowing that Logos is probably the strongest "company" at this point and looks to be around a long time, helping to safeguard my investment.

3. The Logos app is really getting better and I believe will be as good if not better than others in the near future.

So I think I'm definitely leaning toward pulling the trigger with Logos.

So I've been piecing together my ideal initial library (beyond what I already have from my initial package purchase a few years ago) and am left with what to do about commentaries.

I have plenty of concise, single volume commentaries, but want to start really building a solid set of in-depth commentaries of both the old and new testaments.

So I'd love to know your take on sets vs individual volumes? From my research is seems that usually it's better to build your "dream team" of commentaries one volume at a time as apposed to a complete set, but some of these sets (ie. NICOT/NT, Pillar, NIGTC) are so solid that it seems like the set is the way to go (other than the initial cost difference, of course).

What have you done thus far and what would you suggest to someone just starting to build their in-depth Bible Commentary set?

Thanks again for any input!

Eric

Steven Lang

I guess that depends on each individual. My theological convitions are more on the reformed side so I will purchase a full volume like Bakers New Testament. But some sets have theologians who come from various theological camps so though they are most likely eveangelical you will have to decide if you want to spend large amounts of money buying these sets.

So the choices are endless depending on your taste for theology [:D]

Dan Francis

Briefest of review of several programs, strengths and weakness, from my viewpoint:

Logos:

Largest Library available
Fair iOS app
Depends too much on the cloud on the iOS side to be a suitable iPad Bible default.

OliveTree:

Nice selection of books
Great iOS APP
Desktop APP is not an equal to the iOS app or any other program

Accordance:

All the basics are there Library wise (similar selection size to OT), even several items not available in Logos.
Best Mac application, windows app coming soon.
iOS app is very strong, and allows you to use most every resource you own (timeline and 3D atlas are not yet supported).

WordSearch:

Fair program (the mac version is very disappointing since it is just the windows version running via crossover).
Has several resources not available elsewhere
iOS app is iPAD only.
iOS app is poorest one out there, with very limited functionality-even many of their own resources fair to display or navigate properly.
iOS app resources are very limited, calling them to see if something is available is not useful as the list they have is WRONG.
Talking to technical support late 2012, I was told iOS is low priority since it generates no money.
On the plus side it has some of the best prices.
I DON'T recommend it for the above reasons.

I use all of them, if you have to go with only one, Accordance is likely the best over all, best iOS is without doubt is BibleReader which is my goto for iOS use. Your choice of program will likely be most dependant on your resource desires. For me i am happy enough to use all of them to access the various resources i want.

-Dan

PS:Please feel to ask any more on any of the above applications.

Eric Hamm

Thanks for the rundown. Very helpful.

If it weren't for the fact that you can now download most of your resources directly to your iOS device in the Logos app I wouldn't even consider it as I can't imagine having to rely on WIFI every time I want to use it. So I think Logos is heading in the right direction with that regard.

And I agree that the Bible Reader Mac app is more of an after thought or at least a kind of clone of their iOS app that doesn't take advantage of the extra "lifting power" of the desktop experience like Logos and Accordance do.

For me, though, I just don't want to have my many biblical resources spread across several apps as that seems to defeat the purpose. At least in terms of the huge benefit of having all of your library interlinked and available as you're making your way through passages in the Bible. If I'm using Logos, for example, and a certain relevant resource is only available in my BibleReader app I will either have to stop my flow and open the other app to refer that resource, or worse, I miss it altogether because it doesn't show up as I search a passage through my Logos library.

So I hear what you're saying, but all on one device (as much as possible at least) is key for the way I use the app and the benefit I receive from it.

I know this is all personal preference, that's just a rundown on mind.

Eric

Paul Golder

WordSearch:...

In the interest of fairness, if you take a look at the latest WordSearch blog post, they do give an overall view of the software's future that shows some changes are coming.

David Wilson

1. Have you tried apps other than the Logos app and what were your overal findings (I just don't have enough personal experience with it yet to accurately compare)? Yes, as I had the Olive Tree app when I used a Windows Mobile phone, way before Logos came out with an app for mobiles. Overall, all apps have gradually been getting better. Obviously Olive Tree was ahead in the game as their sole focus was on Mobile apps until they relatively recently added a desktop version. But from your other questions you are looking towards a medium to long term future rather than focussing on the short term. Within a year or two we are going to see much more capable mobile device hardware that will be able to run applications which are much more closely aligned to the capability of current desktop/laptop software - so if your focus is beyond teh next few months, you may want to compare not the current modile apps, but the current desktop equivalents, especially if you are likely to put a significant investment into an eLibrary.

2. Do you think my Library concern is valid and has this played a role in choosing a single source for a digital bible study solution? Yes, your Library concern is very much valid, you will not be able to bring eBooks in from another entirely different vendor, especially given both earn their money from the sale of eBooks not from sale of the software. The only way to "merge" eLibraries would be for Logos to "take over" the competition and offer to merge them for you. There was some kind of a deal from Pradis software users when Zondervan decided to stop going their own way and focus on publishing rather than software development. But there may not be similar deals in the future. A lot of the value of the eBook resources is in the tagging designed for specific software, rather than just being in the book text itself. Again, despite your interest in focussing on mobile devices, I would suggest you compare current desktop software capabilities to get a better idea of where mobile device hardware and hence app capability will be in a year or two.

3. Are the bundles the way to go versus purchasing your resources piece by piece? I was looking at the Platinum Package and wasn't sure if I would be buying 20% of bits I would use and 80% to clutter up my library. I think we can assume you are likely to invest in a digital library in order to "grow" and for continuous learning rather than just to re-inforce where you are currently. If that is so, then only by delving into some of the eBooks that you can already see are of value, will you find the value of others you are not yet so sure about. Many of the users on the forums will tell you of experiencing searches that turn up resource sections that they never thought they would use, but subsequently found to be "hidden gems". This said you need to select carefully when making a major investment such as a high end package or bundle: some people avoid "sets" of commentaries as they prefer to get the "best" individual volumes. That said, the prices of higher end packages and bundles to some extent take this into account so the prices follow your line of argument that only certain resources are of high value to any given customer and the rest are of lower value (at least initially) - looked at from that angle, the higher per resource discounts for larger packages make sense: but still only if there are a good percentage (say 25% to 40%) that you can already see some useful value in having. Bear in mind also that you may want to get resources based on perspectives you do NOT agree with; if only to learn enough to better refute them!

Dan Francis

WordSearch:...

In the interest of fairness, if you take a look at the latest WordSearch blog post, they do give an overall view of the software's future that shows some changes are coming.

Thank you for pointing me to the blog, I am very happy to know of this and am hoping things will develop more. I will say i was very happy that the old resources i had in Quickverse were integrated into Wordsearch. I didn't mean to say it was the worst ting under the sun. I use it I am delighted with Feasting on the Word-in Wordsearch. And if Lifeway is moving things along i am glad to hear it. I am downloading it's app and seeing what it is like. I had bad experiences was promised the New Oxford Annotated Bible would work on my iPad, it don't my primary Bible is the NRSV which again will not work. The Interpreter's Bible will not navigate even close to the proper place on the iPAD either. And it has been frustrating to call into tech support and be told basically if the iPad don't function properly it really don;t matter since you didn't pay anything for the app.

-Dan

Dan Francis

I am downloading it's app and seeing what it is like.

With only the NCSB to look at all i can say is having no translation note support wasn't hopeful (the Wordsearch app actually handles the footnotes/cross references very nicely.

-Dan

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

My favorite Logos feature is visual filter highlighting that combines hundreds of search results for simultaneous display. Personally like seeing range of verbal expression in Greek and English resources. Wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Extended_Tips_for_Highlighting_and_Visual_Filters#Examples_of_visual_filters

Currently Logos mobile apps do not have visual filter highlighting; dreaming of visual filter highlighting on mobile devices, especially as mobile hardware capabilities continue to improve. Several mobile apps provide remote desktop control so could see and use all Logos 5 features on a mobile device.

One way to compare competition is add up how much can be spent ? Logos has more resources available at Logos.com and Vyrso.com for purchase and use.

Personally Thankful for 315 free Vyrso eBook's since Thanksgiving 2011 that can be used in Logos. Thankful for free Perseus collections => http://www.logos.com/products/search?Product+Type=Perseus

Keep Smiling [:)]

Unix

Sorry, Francis, I may sound overly negative and lacking understanding, but I don't understand why having several apps (even two) would be a great option?

I first became a customer 12 years ago. I did have a long pause while I was an atheist. If You want to see approximately what I've bought, go to my profile and click some of the links, there are several relevant links You can browse if You want to, that I've been participating in since the Summer or Fall 2012.

A base-package or not? Well, I find it both laborious and necessary to tag, hide and prioritze items after having upgraded, especially the former two tasks, otherwise You end up with very irrelevant search results, difficulties to quickly open up the right resource, and such. So don't stare only at the saving in $. Paying for resources individually, like I do, also assures me that I mainly support those publishers and books that I want to support. (Of course, I have gathered some base-packages as a base so it's a bit difficult to speak on this.)

One thing You'll notice, is that very often there are newer, better items than the ones in a base-package, available only for separate purchase in Logos (or even only as printed matter when it comes to books to learn Gk, translations of the Apostolic Fathers, and Oxford Encyclopedia of the Books of the Bible).

Commentary sets or not? Well, on a sidenote first of all I want to point out that I really don't want the commentary sets included in base-packages, I've found only ONE of them good enough to use so there's surely a whole lot of "waste" (sorry about the strong expression) in most of the base-packages. I think Logos is including so many commentaries just because most people get so excited about commentaries in the first place.
The best, or rather most cost-effective approach is to wait until a set goes on sale.
But to cherry-pick only the volumes You actually will use and want, is always the best option when possible and usually doesn't become as expensive as buying the whole set on a sale, I've done this with for example ICC which by the way is not included in any Logos base-packages.
Many commentaries are sold as NT-sets and OT-sets.

Unfortunately, sometimes when You quickly need a commentary volume You end up buying it as printed matter because it's not yet typeset or tagged in Logos. This has happened to me twice for items that will/did got tagged by Logos. The upside is that a paper book can be read in the train and buses and when waiting on stations which keeps You studying in the midst of a busy life.

I would not stand in the commuter traffic reading commentaries from a cellular phone! My laptop is small, so sometimes when there's a lot of room in the train and especially if I get to sit where there is an electrical socket (there's a few in some of the largest commuter trains over here) I start my laptop, it starts fast, and read or do some organizing in Logos. Also sometimes when I'm a passenger in a car and we drive some miles on a straight highway.

I'm trying to pay as little...

RGP

I have recently tried Olivetree and have now went exclusively with the Accordance app. As for Logos the app is very good and is an important part of my study, but I personally find using ipod touch MUCH better than the desktop, I never was a power user. Although doing extensive research in Logos on the desktop is by far my prefered choice (just because of the investment)

All I require for study is OFFLINE morphological searching, this can be done by Olivetree and Accordance but not at the moment by Logos. Accordance in my view is a very powerful app and complex searches can be done very easily, the entire app is very, very intuitive. Olivetree can also do some of these things but I did not find that it was as intuitive as Accordance.

I am sad to have to buy over again resources that I own in Logos just so that I can have proper original languages searching offline.

But as I have said I combine my study with the Logos app (because of the bigger library) and now the power of offline searching so I am very happy.

Robert.

Eric Hamm

To me, this page says a lot: http://www.logos.com/about/history

Logos really has been around for long time and as others have pointed out, they should be around for quite some time to come.

I find that the competition really does have some enticing pricing to invest in their platforms through their own libraries, but what I've seen is that overall the Logos library is much stronger, more complete (Pillar NT Commentary, for example, includes the three updated volumes that the competition does not) and just seem like a better investment considering the long standing strength of Logos as a company.

Eric

Donovan R. Palmer

Not much more that I could add to this string. It does come down to preference and needs.

As far as iOS apps goes, I have and use daily Logos and another product. I enjoy the access to the content that the Logos iOS app gives me and I am grateful for it. It is however not my favourite app in terms of ease of use, speed and power. My biggest grips against it are:

1. Especially if you are following a sermon, I find the UI for changing bible versions or texts too cumbersome. Of course this is strictly opinion.

2. The apps abilities are limited when it comes to running offline. I don't have a 3G iPad and a number of places I go, it would not do any good anyhow.

3. The app at times is very slow.

The ability to sync notes in the cloud is very nice. Unfortunately, there is not feature parity yet in how notes are handled on OSX and iOS. Minor differences, but it works and there are efforts to improve it. You can't yet access clippings or your prayer lists on iOS either, but you can access your daily reading plans and devotionals.

I expect with time these things will improve and without a doubt the app is useable. It gets the job done and even does some things that others can't, but sometimes it feels like cutting wood with a dull saw. If I were to give it a grade, I would give it a B+. Hope this helps.

Randy W. Sims

The apps abilities are limited when it comes to running offline. I don't have a 3G iPad and a number of places I go, it would not do any good anyhow.

This is one of my biggest annoyances. If it's on the radar for the future, I understand and can wait, there is a lot of great work going into the apps, but I'm still wondering, from some of the things that have been mentioned, if it's going to happen at all. I would love to know if offline abilities, just basic commentary, dictionary, topic lookup, are going to be added. Is this on the radar at all???

I live in Metro Atlanta, and many of the places I need Logos on my tablet don't have and aren't going to have wifi in the foreseeable future. I'm paying Verizon an extra $30 a month to use my cell as a wifi hotspot specifically for Logos - that is the only reason I use the hotspot. Even with the new extended battery I just put in it my phone is dead in a few hours. And I would rather spend that $30 a month elsewhere...

Dan Francis

Logos really has been around for long time and as others have pointed out, they should be around for quite some time to come.

Accordance has been around nearly as long and Wordsearch too, I remember ad's for "BRS" (Bible research Systems) WordSearch for the Mac, going far back as 1989 (ironically WS mac was not available for about decade when they focused exclusively on Windows, but they are good record keepers and had all my information on hand one they reentered the mac marketplace) and while i do not have info on the web of them going back that far they still have my order. Accordance has been around since 1988. Olivetree has only been founded back 2000 I have been using them from 2003 when i bought a palm pilot, mostly for Bible reading. All 4 companies have been around for a long time and believe (all four companies, including Logos will likely be around for a long time).

-dan

Eric Hamm

Yep, I just found this to be a real issue as well. I figured since you could now download your entire library onto your iOS device you could do all the things that you can normally do with the Logos app, especially things like search, passage guides, etc... But I was a bit shocked to find that this was not the case at all.

What I'm realizing is that Logos is all about an awesome Desktop experience with an awesome Library and an iOS app to allow you to "carry your Library with you wherever you go". Where as something like OliveTree (BibleReader) is a full blown Bible Study experience for your mobile device, which happens to have a desktop program that pretty much mimics the mobile experience.

So one is Desktop first and the mobile app is just an extension of that, while the other is mobile first with the desktop program just being an extension, or as I stated, pretty much a duplicate of it.

So in regard to the programs themselves, ones not necessarily better than the other, they just shine in different areas. The problem I'm finding is that since you can't share your library between the two products you either have to purchase your Library twice, use each app for different things or just except the fact that each experience will be great in one way and not so great in another and it's just a matter of deciding which area is less important to you.

For me, since I feel like studying the Word feels more natural on a mobile device, it's hard to move away from something like BibleReader which really nails that "experience". And yet after updating to Logos 5 and remembering how efficient it is to study scripture on such a powerful and flexible program, it's hard not to just accept the limitations of the Logos mobile app and enjoy the many Logos benefits already discussed in this thread.

I guess the whole reason I've spent so much time harping over all of this is because at the end of the day I don't want to have to buy things twice so I'm really hoping to just get on board with one and move forward. Because once I go in one direction with the a few initial investments I don't plan on changing course if I don't absolutely have to.

I'm sure some of you can relate.

Eric