Will Potential Logos' Subscription Model Kill the Value of My Investment?

While I really love Logos (both the company and the product) and have made a sizable financial investment in building my library, I have one question that I thought I should address before I continue to invest in buying Logos' products. My question is this:

If Logos eventually hopes to go to an "all-you-can-eat" subscription model (similar to Netflix), does it make sense for me to be buying resources unless I absolutely need them right now?

The reason I ask is because Bob essentially laid out this vision in a post back in July when he said:

"My long-term dream is that Logos can offer something like the $8.99 / month Netflix subscription -- all the Bible study materials you could want for an incredibly low monthly price. In that model we wouldn't allow account sharing or content resale, But we'd offer incredibly inexpensive access to everyone. You wouldn't need a used-copy at half price; you'd get everything for less." (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/50184/380033.aspx#380033)

In other words, if Logos goes to such a model, it seems like the value of my investment will drop significantly since I would be able to get access to all the resources I own (and much, much more) for far less than what I am paying to buy them. In fact, if I knew for sure that such a model was 5-years away, I would seriously consider not buying anything else unless I absolutely needed it right away and then get a subscription when it becomes available.

Of course, I know that such a subscription model may be further than 5 years away, as it would take a lot to get all the publishers to agree to such a model. However, if and when it does become available, it seems like the whole point of owning a Logos library (including passing it on to an heir or giving it away) becomes severely marginalized.

Any thoughts or feedback on this would be very much appreciated.

Thanks.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Tom Reynolds

Bob has long desired to sell people resources for a monthly fee but hasn't got anywhere with it. Their seminarylibrary.com website doesn't seem to have gotten anywhere as you can see here: http://www.logos.com/product/2617/seminarylibrarycom-subscription. The Faithlife Study Bible concept obviously hasn't picked up traction either because now it's being given away and included in the base packages. It's not just the publishers that Logos has to convince but their customers. Existing customers like yourself are obviously not keen on it for the reasons you've given. Where would Logos find enough new customers to make it go? It's just not like Netflix in that once I watch a movie I'm done with it but I use the same Bible resources over and over again and their value increases over time. I would never pay a monthly fee and risk losing something I've used so much and potentially added a lot of notes to and marked up.

Wayne

A subscription model in the near future would likely only happen with material that Logos produces. Lexham, FSB, EEC are their own imprints and Logos says they plan to update the materials that they publish. They don't need publisher approval to sell these works on a subscription model. Looking twenty years down the road it is very hard to guess what will happen. It is obviously a changing world.

Libraries whether they be print or electronic lose their value every year with the exception of a few classic works. I suspect that when a pastor retires that he gets very little for his library. The majority of the books that he purchased when he was new in ministry are 40+ years old. Electronic libraries will be subject to a similar loss in value.

My recommendation is that you buy looking at your projected needs over the next five years.

MJ. Smith

Sorry but my crystal ball doesn't work that far out.[;)] Seriously, it will take time for authors, publishers, universities etc. to rework their business models to make such a conversion possible. It will also take additional infrastructure to convince users that resources are quickly accessible yet secure against cyber groups, power outages, server errors etc. .... While I think Bob's vision may well be the direction all media is headed, I think it is too early to believe any suggested timeline.A few high profile failures will slow it down; a few high profile successes will speed it up.

Kendall Sholtess

This sounds very bad. I personally think this idea is like selling yourself into slavery. If you like giving control of your life to just a few board of directors, that's great. If you're like me, though, I value my freedom. I don't want to be bound to endless payments.

I don't want to have to pay a subscription fee! No doubt is is far more profitable for Logos, though.

That's why I bought my house early, rather than paying rent for 50 years.

They can change the subscription fee any time they feel like it. They end up with more and more control until someday in the future, we wake up to find that we have lost our rights.

The new model is full control to the seller, reduce the customer's control.Eventually they'd probably like to move it all online, with no downloadable content. They are moving us there little by little, so we don't feel it (frog in the boiling pot).

I doubt it's a conspiracy of Bob's. It's industry-wide. They're like cyborg post-millennialists. A computerized utopia, where you give up your individual rights for the privilege of joining the Great Cloud. Pay your membership dues, please. It's slavery! Don't do it!

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452866#Comment_452866

I looked at the OP and started to consider this notion of a subscription to Logos for a few moments. On one hand a small fee to have access to a library the size of a seminary collection (or so) might be useful. On the other I am still waiting on some classic theological works that have been seminal in the theological field that just have not appeared in the collection. So really what benefit is there for an even larger library that I wont use anymore than the smallish sized one I have already paid for. For me I keep waiting for Logos to offer me something that makes spending even more money worth the effort...even a discount on the minimal upgrade would be somewhat interesting. A subscription solution seems like a solution to a problem that I do not yet have...how odd.

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452879#Comment_452879

For someone who desires to read top notch material NICOT/NICNT but cannot afford it, this would come in handy. Other sites offer monthly subscription, but someone like me, would proably bite (I would not lose access to what has already been purchased) if I wanted to do the work using Logos software, and did not have a seminary library in my neck of the woods.

Just my five cents.

Rich DeRuiter

While I really love Logos (both the company and the product) and have made a sizable financial investment in building my library, I have one question that I thought I should address before I continue to invest in buying Logos' products.

Your concerns are precisely why Logos is not likely to go to a subscription model any time soon. While, from Logos' perspective, a subscription model would provide a more predictable income stream, from a user perspective, it immediately devalues purchasing resources (by far, the main current income stream).

Should Logos eventually move to such a model, I'd anticipate some sort of discount for resources already purchased, so that we'd only be 'renting' resources we don't own. But Logos hasn't laid out any specifics for what they have in mind, and my anticipation has no basis in any known facts (just Logos' track record in dealing with customers). I'd expect that Logos would have to make such a model attractive to its best customers, as well as to new customers, which would not be an easy task. This is one of the reasons I'm not concerned at this point.

Another reason I'm not concerned is that when Logos first released the FSB, it wanted to use the subscription model. I'm not sure why, but they quickly abandoned that model and began just giving it away. So far, that model has not gained any traction with any Logos product except Proclaim, but that's an entirely different kind of product, and the marketing there parallels some others in the same industry. Even with Proclaim, it took a while for the subscription model to gain traction.

A final reason I believe a subscription model is a long way off, is strong resistance expressed by users whenever the subject comes up. I think I'm in a very small minority of people who think it could be advantageous in some ways. The vast majority of users who have expressed opinions on this possibility, have been very, very negative. Assuming Logos doesn't want to lose customers, we are not likely to see this option any time soon.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452925#Comment_452925

A final reason I believe a subscription model is a long way off, is strong resistance expressed by users whenever the subject comes up. I think I'm in a very small minority of people who think it could be advantageous in some ways. The vast majority of users who have expressed opinions on this possibility, have been very, very negative. Assuming Logos doesn't want to lose customers, we are not likely to see this option any time soon.

I think you are right. The former subscription model of FSB probably was a test on customer acceptance - and the public reaction in the forum seems to show that most Logos users are not prepared to go that way.

Matthew C Jones

If Logos eventually hopes to go to an "all-you-can-eat" subscription model (similar to Netflix), does it make sense for me to be buying resources unless I absolutely need them right now?

This question is precisely why I doubt we see a move to the subscription model. Several years back I requested Logos offer a single-user, non-transferable license. The target audience would be an elderly user who could not see the value of a large investment when their life expectancy was numbered in just a few years. Dan Pritchett told me it would be difficult to market as it focused on death. Another perspective was raised with "Don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs."

Many Logos users have spent thousands and more than a few have spent ten thousand dollars on resources.Logos would be foolish to offer a "Netflix level" subscription and kill off the golden geese they already have. It would take 100 subscription years to replace one $10,000 buyer.

The licensing issue precludes an all-access subscription. Logos has already run into publishers that will not allow mobile device access.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452931#Comment_452931

I would welcome a subscription option. I have occasional times when I would like to access a resource like ICC or AYB, however, I doubt I will ever get $1600-2000 worth of value/usage from those resources. It would be of particular advantage when newer resources quote older resources. Logos has many of those resources, but we can't all own those in our personal libraries. With a subscription, we could simply link to those resources and view the original content in context.

Subscription doesn't necessarily mean I would stop purchasing resources. There would probably be things I would just want to own and have access to when not online.

Also, the subscription would have to be affordable. I'm sure it would be.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452946#Comment_452946

I have occasional times when I would like to access a resource like ICC or AYB, however, I doubt I will ever get $1600-2000 worth of value/usage from those resources.

If Logos offered subscriptions the smart approach would be to offer select subscriptions. That is; a separate fee for each premium resource. (AYB for $50/yr, ICC for $45/yr, NICOT/NICNT for $55/yr, and so on.) It would still take them 20 or 30 years to realize the same money they currently get with an outright sale. I just don't see them doing that. If the "golden geese" buyers got the slightest hint Bob Pritchett was moving to a subscription model they'd quit laying the golden eggs. (You know some users have spent $10k, $20k, $30k, $40k, + and there are those untapped, future "golden geese" to consider.)

Dan Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452892#Comment_452892

For someone who desires to read top notch material NICOT/NICNT but cannot afford it, this would come in handy.

If we were to offer subscriptions to individual titles, what would be your idea of the best break even price point between subscribing and buying? If a collection costs $500 to purchase outright, how many months of "subscription" should it take until it breaks even and equals $500. In other words, how would you decide which collections to subscribe to and which to buy?

Randy W. Sims

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452969#Comment_452969

If Logos offered subscriptions the smart approach would be to offer select subscriptions. That is; a separate fee for each premium resource

Another approach would be to use a credit system. Resources would be valued at 1 to 4 credits each. Users subscribe to, say 5, 10, or 20 credits per month. With those credits they can check out books up to their credit limit for as long as they wish with probably a min 7 days or such to keep from swapping too much. Figuring out how to reimburse publishers would be a bit of a pill, but doable. This would seem attractive to a lot of people, especially students and potential buyers who want to evaluate books, while also not stepping on the toes of people who have invested a lot.

They could also offer the option to rent some of the smaller base packages (while still offering them for purchase). Only the smaller ones in order to avoid stepping on toes of bigger purchasing customers.

Use borrowing as a hook to get customers to experience and then buy Logos. Other incentives would be to offer long time borrowers of books or base packages a discounted price to purchase.

...

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452969#Comment_452969

If Logos offered subscriptions the smart approach would be to offer select subscriptions. That is; a separate fee for each premium resource. (AYB for $50/yr, ICC for $45/yr, NICOT/NICNT for $55/yr, and so on.) It would still take them 20 or 30 years to realize the same money they currently get with an outright sale. I just don't see them doing that. If thhe "golden geese" buyers got the slightest hint Bob Pritchett was moving to a subscription model they'd quit laying the golden eggs. (You know some users have spent $10k, $20k,$30k, $40k,+ and there are those untapped, future "golden geese" to consider.)

But Bob has already expressed his desire and willingness to offer a subscription service. I think his vision is that there are more potential Netflix-style customers than there are golden geese. I don't know which is what, but I would like to have a subscription option.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452977#Comment_452977

If a collection costs $500 to purchase outright, how many months of "subscription" should it take until it breaks even and equals $500.

I would think somewhere between 60 and 100 months to equal the purchase price.

That said, I would likely be much more interested in having access to the whole Logos stable of resources, rather than piecemealing.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452977#Comment_452977

If we were to offer subscriptions to individual titles, what would be your idea of the best break even price point between subscribing and buying? If a collection costs $500 to purchase outright, how many months of "subscription" should it take until it breaks even and equals $500.

1.5% per month

In other words, how would you decide which collections to subscribe to and which to buy?

You know my preference [:)] I like to buy Logos resources.

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452986#Comment_452986

My first Logos package was over 15 years ago. And I hope I might yet be still well and wanting to read Logos resources for 15 more, and beyond.

I really dont want to "break even" in 3-5 years, and be paying more for ever after that ...

I subscribe to Safari Books online for about US$39.99 per mth and its all-you-can-eat, but its computer books and there is always a need for the newest or even beta coverage, and old computer books are mostly junk in a few years (except where you need to support older products and applications).

Logos resources and different - I still want to read something I might have already read, or want to read parts of 50 different resources that I've never read before: e.g. all the commentatries on some book of the Bible my Pastor moves onto at some period.

If there was a good model that supported both BUY and RENT, then we could pick and choose. But I think I'd mosly buy anything I think had merit. At least maybe I could use rent to peek at somethingbefore I buy it.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452986#Comment_452986

That said, I would likely be much more interested in having access to the whole Logos stable of resources, rather than piecemealing.

If it were set up like that (all-access) they would have to offer a heavily discounted rate to attract users who are heavily invested. I have almost 10,000 resources. Why should I rent books I already have?

Jeremy White

For my other vocation I subscribe to a service called Safari Books Online. This gives me access to a library of mainly technical IT books. It makes perfect sense for me to do this in this context because these types of books go out of date very quickly. The have two tiers, an all you can eat option which is more expensive and a bookshelf option where you are limited to 10 books checked out at anytime and you can only switch out a slot once a month.

I doubt that Logos could ever offer an all you can eat option that was priced low enough to get enough takers and for them to actually make a profit on it. However, I can think of some things that they could do that would be of interest to me.

- The publications being published via the community pricing system could also be offered via subscription model. You could still have some sort of voting system to determine priority order of works to published. Win for the subscriber: immediate access to all public domain resources in the Logos system, win for Logos: Ongoing revenue that they can use to just keep pushing out as many titles each month as subscription fees allow.

- Rental option. Let's say I'm studying a particular book of the Bible and want to temporarily beef up my commentary coverage, it would be a lot easier for me to justify the cost of renting that one volume of an expensive commentary set as opposed to purchasing it or even worse having to purchase the entire set. Win for the subscriber: Lower cost to access temporarily relevant resources. Win for Logos: Pricing can just be cost plus, so less guess work involved. So negotiated with publisher regarding what royalty they want for this type of access and add some margin.

Neither of these options negates the value of paying money upfront for a perpetual cross platform license like we currently do

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452853#Comment_452853

I would never pay a monthly fee and risk losing something I've used so much and potentially added a lot of notes to and marked up.

Where's my like button?

[Y] +1

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453008#Comment_453008

Neither of these options negates the value of paying money upfront for a perpetual cross platform license like we currently do

Good thoughts Jeremy. [:)]

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453008#Comment_453008

I doubt the rental model would kill the value of owning it. Abingdon has a similar model you can buy or subscribe but subscribing for 2 years you have more than paid for the resource, if Logos did something similar I don't see that it would make ownership less attractive or valuable and might make resources available to people who do not want/need to purchase an item but could benefit with a rental of it.

-Dan

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453016#Comment_453016

"Hello? Customer Service? Hi, our offerings were down this last few months and we had to temporally suspend our subscription. And I was wondering, how much would it cost to look at a Bible for a few minutes? I just need to make a few notes for this Sunday's sermon..."

Sogol

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453016#Comment_453016

I doubt the rental model would kill the value of owning it. Abingdon has a similar model you can buy or subscribe but subscribing for 2 years you have more than paid for the resource, if Logos did something similar I don't see that it would make ownership less attractive or valuable and might make resources available to people who do not want/need to purchase an item but could benefit with a rental of it.

-Dan

I think it all really comes down to what the subsciption pricing looks like. If two years of a subscription more than pays for the cost of buying it, that would be like paying $1,000 per year for access to just the Anchor Bible. However, I understand Logos' vision to be charging less than that for access to far more.

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453029#Comment_453029

How subscription profits work:

Take the number of people who will
subscribe.
Count as loss the number of people
who will constantly access a wide variety the subscribed
information.
Count as gain the majority of the people who will
pay the full price, but only access a few resources once in a while.
Subtract 2 from 3 and use the info in a complex formula to determine a
subscription fee that meets profit expectations.

This is exactly how Netflix works.

Jeremy White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452977#Comment_452977

If we were to offer subscriptions to individual titles, what would be your idea of the best break even price point between subscribing and buying? If a collection costs $500 to purchase outright, how many months of "subscription" should it take until it breaks even and equals $500. In other words, how would you decide which collections to subscribe to and which to buy?

My answer to this specific question takes its cue from media vendors like Apple and Amazon where I often am presented with the rent or buy option. A quick look at new releases suggests I can rent these for about 25% of the purchase cost. This kind of makes sense because the primary value I get is when I view the movie the first time. I would be happy with similar pricing to rent a book but obviously I would want the loan period to be a number of months (at least three - maybe even have a 12 month option in the way that you can rent text books) and I would also want to have the option to upgrade to full purchase during the rental period with the rental price being credited towards that purchase.

It doesn't make much sense to me to subscribe to a collection unless it was one that grew over time (like my suggestion regarding public domain works) If I am interested in a collection and I think over time I will get reasonable value from having access to some or all of the books in that particular collection then if I don't have the ability to purchase outright I can always put it on a payment plan. That way I don't have to worry about a situation where I discover over some period of time I've paid more for access to a resource then what I would have if I had just purchased it outright,

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453016#Comment_453016

but subscribing for 2 years you have more than paid for the resource,

With the 2 year formula it would make the Anchor Yale Bible rent for $79 a month. I doubt that high of a rate would succeed.

Sogol

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453102#Comment_453102

but subscribing for 2 years you have more than paid for the resource,

With the 2 year formula it would make the Anchor Yale Bible rent for $79 a month. I doubt that high of a rate would succeed.

For the AYB subscription model to work, I am guessing Logos would have to come up with something that looked very roughly like this:

- Determine that $50/yr is an attractive annual subscription price for customers.

- Tell the publishers that they can replace each $1,900 purchase with 40 $50/yr subscribers. So for each sale the publisher would normally get, it now gets its share of $2,000/yr in subscription fees. The publisher also benefits because subscription revenue is much more steady and predictable than the lumpy pattern of individual $1,900 sales.

I assume Logos would also like to offer a subscription plan where customers pay Logos a flat monthly price for access to all or a limited number of resources. That's a lot more complex, but there is probably a way it could be done.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453113#Comment_453113

The one arena where electronic books for rent have taken hold is in the academic market. The liberal arts college from which I graduated has found to its surprise that many students rent and buy - rent for mobile use to avoid carrying heavy books, purchase for dorm room studying.

It may be that Logos offers academic term rentals long before general population books.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453139#Comment_453139

Agree with MJ.

Whenever Janie breaks up one of those monster academic collections, it's $100+ apiece. I'd go for a subscription easily, since I usually want to know what's in the book (once). I'd even be happy to pay for the book for 60 days (ie 'rent?').

Yes, the subscription model would REALLY make sense for the vast academic world and journal. But then (1) you'd probably not want to have to tag it (similar to Vyrso since how many strange-readers are there?) and (2) You'd have to know what funds the academic market in the first place (libraries, what?).

In a sense it'd be similar to Perseus ... just not free.

Bob Pritchett

I am very interested in this subject, but don't have time for a long answer right now.

I believe you can sum up all the predictions about the future into one observation, though:

Some people LIKE to own. Some people LIKE to rent.

For any product -- housing, transportation, access to entertainment, etc. -- there is a market for people who buy and a market for people who rent, and (generally) each of those two types of customers thinks the other is crazy. :-)

"Who would rent a house? You're throwing money away! You're paying someone else's mortgage."

"Who would buy a house? You're committing for years, tying up cash, restricting opportunities to move for work or ministry or family."

And often someone is a renter for one type of goods and an owner for another. I have always owned my house and car, but 'rent' entertainment. I have a friend who has never owned a house or car, but who buys DVD or Blu-Ray discs for every movie or TV show he likes. I can't imagine doing that.

Today most Logos users are purchasers -- because we don't have a rental offering. But don't worry that we're going to abandon you, or leave you, or force you into a model you hate. We're trying to grow to a new market, where people are presently aren't our customers (because they hate buying at full price) will join us.

Most people I've talked with that have offered both models after offering one have not seen sales split into two camps, but have seen sales increase as they attract new customers. I believe we'll ultimately offer both models, and that our forums will have permanent threads where fans of one model express amazement that anyone would participate in the other... :-)

-- Bob

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/452977#Comment_452977

If we were to offer subscriptions to individual titles, what would be your idea of the best break even price point between subscribing and buying? If a collection costs $500 to purchase outright, how many months of "subscription" should it take until it breaks even and equals $500. In other words, how would you decide which collections to subscribe to and which to buy?

Dan, I am thinking of a monthly fee to use the entire database, say $50.00). You make the money when several thousand 10,000 people buy into it. That is 500,000 a month or 6,000,000 million dollars a year.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453010#Comment_453010

I would never pay a monthly fee and risk losing something I've used so much and potentially added a lot of notes to and marked up.

The note file belongs to the user, so how can one lose it? Include some context (like a sentence or paragraph) of the original book when you write your note and you are set.

Wayne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453066#Comment_453066

I am in a situation where the organization that I work for requires that anything that is purchased with ministry funds stay with the ministry in the event you leave. They believe that is the safest way to interpret IRS policies. I know that there are other organizations and churches that have a similar policy. I have been buying Logos books with personal funds to avoid that situation. If I was able to rent a book that avoids the problem of owning the book and needing to reimburse the organization when leaving. I could turn in a rental fee for reimbursement for books that are needed for a particular course or series without any problem.

I would think that many of us would be hybrid users of the system. We would purchase reference books such as BDAG and Bible Dictionaries that we would use frequently. But we would rent books that deal with specific topics such as Apologetics that we need for short period of time and tend to get dated much quicker.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453008#Comment_453008

I doubt that Logos could ever offer an all you can eat option that was priced low enough to get enough takers and for them to actually make a profit on it.

This question is precisely why I doubt we see a move to the subscription model.

The licensing issue precludes an all-access subscription.

My long-term dream is that Logos can offer something like the $8.99 / month Netflix subscription -- all the Bible study materials you could want for an incredibly low monthly price. In that model we wouldn't allow account sharing or content resale, But we'd offer incredibly inexpensive access to everyone. You wouldn't need a used-copy at half price; you'd get everything for less.

-- Bob

If Bob says it's something he would like to do--a "dream"--why on earth would customers say Logos can't do it?

Yeah, like most, I want to "have" the stuff I have to have. At this point, I pretty much do. But I could legitimately make good use of more. All I need to have at this point is access. For the most part, where resources are concerned, it's in and out--grab a quote and go. I don't need to own X resource just to get a quote. But I often don't know the quote exists without the hyperlinks Logos provides. A subscription solves my problem. If I feel that I eventually need to "have" a given resource, I'm sure Bob won't say, "sorry, no more sales on my watch!"

I think the grumblers are forgetting that no one is threatening to take anything from them. We ought to know by now--

T H A T ' S N E V E R G O I N G T O H A P P E N .

All Bob and Dan are doing is trying to offer an OPTION that could make a ton of sense to most Logos users...whether they are prepared to acknowledge it or not.

So...stop talking dirt about the idea. I bet on the Pritchetts making it happen if they want it to happen. But that depends to a large extent on if we want it to happen. At this point, it's gravy on the rice and frosting on the cake. Stop grumbling.

Kendall Sholtess

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453207#Comment_453207

It sounds reasonable to offer both options. I am glad and will take it at your word that no-one will be forced into one or another mold.

Yes choice is the American way! Now I understand you better.

Milton C.Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453008#Comment_453008

With interest, today I read these posts. No matter what is done it will not matteer to me since next month I will be 80. I'm still in the ministry full-time and love to read. I am in agreement with my son "Super Tramp" when he says....: "why should I rent what I already have?" My library this month will pass 12 thousand volumes. I know that I'll need to live anotheer 50 years to get through them all but how much easier it is for me today that it was 30 years ago. I started with Logos when I met Bob's dad at a convention. I returned to Japan and to be honest.....I hated it. For several years I quit using it. Then after returning to the States in 1991, I became reacquainted with Logos and the other software has dropped by the wayside. THINK OF IT LIKE THIS: They just had an auto show in Detroit. I'm not going to buy a car now because in 5 years they are going to have so much more on them. (Like that camera that takes pictures of what you see when driving) Today....LOGOS is the best and I want the best.

Milton in Kansas

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453395#Comment_453395

Milton, you have a very nice son and daughter-in-law. And we've been learning all about your sojourn in Japan! Thank you.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453302#Comment_453302

If Bob says it's something he would like to do--a "dream"--why on earth would customers say Logos can't do it?

Bob would be the first to admit not all of his dreams come true. Netflix would also admit losing many of their content provider contracts this year was not part of their dream. Not even Bill Gates gets everything he dreams up. The free enterprise system requires a viable business model. I am just being a realist when I point out the numbers do not crunch right to promise a $9 per month fee for all-access. Too much revenue will be forfeited from lost sales.

Stop grumbling

Grumbling? I would be thrilled to subscribe to a $9 per month all-access subscription. It would cost Bob Pritchett $6,000 to $10,000 in annual revenue loss from me alone.(I believe there is still another $50,000 in resources I do not have yet.have) Why should I continue to buy 2000 books a year when I can rent everything for $108?

Why should Safari books command $40 per month subscription and Logos settle fot $9? It is not viable.

Jeremy White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453302#Comment_453302

So...stop talking dirt about the idea

The OP was exploring the question of how what might be considered an inevitability impacts on purchasing decisions in the here and now. Then we broadened the discussion to what form a subscription or rental model might take, pro/cons, pricing, etc.

I don't get the sense that anyone's grumbling or talking dirt (well, as far as I can speak for myself) It is obvious and has been for some time for any regular visitor to the boards that Logos is keen on the idea of a some type of subscription service. The fact that BOTH Dan and Bob have commented on this thread is evidence enough of their interest and these type of discussions are exactly the type of interactions that most companies covet because they extremely valuable to help them refine their long and short term strategies.

I have already invested considerable amounts of money into Logos resources so it is my interest to at least be part of the conversation and hopefully see the company / platform develop in a way that is compatible with my needs and goals. I've even gone as far as suggested how much I would be prepared to pay for it.

Yeah, like most, I want to "have" the stuff I have to have. At this point, I pretty much do. But I could legitimately make good use of more. All I need to have at this point is access. For the most part, where resources are concerned, it's in and out--grab a quote and go. I don't need to own X resource just to get a quote. But I often don't know the quote exists without the hyperlinks Logos provides. A subscription solves my problem. If I feel that I eventually need to "have" a given resource, I'm sure Bob won't say, "sorry, no more sales on my watch!"

The way you've outlined how it might work for you sounds great, but the real meat of the discussion would be - how much would you be prepared to pay for the option of extending out your library in this way and what resources would you expect to be available for that price. Also, what type of control mechanisms do you feel would be reasonable? One person has suggested a credit system where they for a set fee per month they could do exactly what you outline and certain number of times.. I've suggest a straight rental option... Logos could reasonably offer both options if it wanted to and the numbers crunched out OK.

That's the type of information that Logos needs because at the end of the day they don't control a big chunk of the content they publish on the platform. It is the owners of those different copyrights that they would need to convince (with the offer of enough revenue) to allow them to offer access through a different model. Considering some publishers push back on allowing their titles to be available via the mobile apps this will be difficult without some good market research data to show how many dollars would come in. Where to they get info from? Us.

I'm not saying that it is impossible, services like Safari Books Online show that it is, but certainly is not as easy as saying if Logos wants to do it they will make it happen but these types of discussion certainly can't help but improve the odds a little.

Jeremy White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453424#Comment_453424

I would be thrilled to subscribe to a $9 per month all-access subscription.

Yep. Sign me up for that as well [:)]

Geo Philips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453207#Comment_453207

Hi Bob,

This is why I admire Logos, not just as a Christian software company, but as a software company period. A Christian MSDN (sorry, non-techies )? Wow, where do I sign up for that?

But realistically, I believe I would still be happy if you had a tiered subscription model (like Netflix streaming alone vs streaming plus DVDs). Not everyone needs all academic and technical resources.

So a Bible Study package with the English commentary sets, dictionaries and misc. for $9.

An Academic set with all of the above plus all the scholarly resources for $15.

NOTE: Those prices are just my guesstimates. It might be $25 and $40 for all I know.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453436#Comment_453436

I've even gone as far as suggested how much I would be prepared to pay for it.

I just found $80 if I cancel today's three Pre-Pubs. My point is; Why buy any new resources if Bob is going to offer them for $9 a month?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453469#Comment_453469

I don't know .... each year I pay $80 or so for the JBL subscription. Often I forget to download the quarterly. Mainly I search it. I suspect there's quite a bit of 'give' in a subscription, depending on the contents.

Sogol

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453458#Comment_453458

All the talk of access to everything for $9/month is getting right back to my original concern when I started this thread.

If that is going to become a reality, then there is essentially no future value in anything I currently own. I would sign up for the subscription too and thus wouldn't need anything I currently own. Even if an unlimited access subscription is $50 to $100 per month, then I would still probably sign up and save more than I spend each year for Logos resources.

To be sure, I think Logos should and must do whatever it has to do to stay competitive in the marketplace. However, if subscription plans like the one I just mentioned are going to become available, then I honestly don't want to spend another dime buying anything. In fact, I would probably sell everything I own and try and live off paper books until the subscriptions come out.

The only ways I can see subscriptions even remotely working out well for current owners of resources is if they are something like the following:

1) Subscriptions are sold for individual resources (e.g. $50/year for the Anchor Yale Bible, $35/year for Word Biblical commentary, etc.)

2) Subscriptions give you access to a limited number of resources (e.g. $50/month for access to any 500 pages, or any 2 resources)

3) Those of us who own get the value of everything we own converted into credits towards the subscription (e.g. if you have $5,000 worth of resources then you get $5,000 in subscription credit)

Once again, I am not advocating that Logos do anything sub-optimal for the marketplace to please current owners, such as not offering very attractive subscription plans. I'm just being honest and prudent from my perspective in saying that I don't want to buy anything else or own anything else if things are headed toward an all access subscription model for less than $100/month (and especially if its $9/month).

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453469#Comment_453469

I just found $80 if I cancel today's three Pre-Pubs. My point is; Why buy any new resources if Bob is going to offer them for $9 a month?

I suppose the subscription would be cloud-based. There are times when I just don't have internet access. If you own, you have no worries.

elnwood

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453470#Comment_453470

I know some journal databases lets you have 24-hour access to a journal article for a few dollars. I would like something like that.

For example, there's NO WAY I'm buying the Anchor Bible Commentary set for $1900. If it were half of that, I might consider, but still probably not. But if I could pay $5 to access one of those volumes for a day? Or $10 for a week? I would jump at that. A lot of these books are references, and we just need to look up one thing.

Sogol

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453469#Comment_453469

I've even gone as far as suggested how much I would be prepared to pay for it.

I just found $80 if I cancel today's three Pre-Pubs. My point is; Why buy any new resources if Bob is going to offer them for $9 a month?

Exactlly.

It would be wonderful if Logos offered access to everything for $9/month. But if things are headed that way in the near future, it just doesn't make sense to buy anything now unless you absolutely need it.

And once again, I love Logos and hope they can find a win-win solution here, but I'm just offering a logical and prudent reaction to what I see.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453478#Comment_453478

All the talk of access to everything for $9/month is getting right back to my original concern when I started this thread.

I appreciate hearing Bob Pritchett's short answer. I hope he finds time soon to give us his long answer. We need to know what measures he will take to protect our large investments. And more importantly, why should we continue to invest in Logos resources?

Not knowing these answers raises lots of doubts.

elnwood

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/453478#Comment_453478

All the talk of access to everything for $9/month is getting right back to my original concern when I started this thread.

All this talk of $9 a month is beyond ridiculous. There's no way Logos could possibly offer those resources for that low. I doubt they could even offer any major commentary set for that cheaply.

The only reason why he said $9 a month is because that's how much Netflix charged.

"My long-term dream is that Logos can offer something like the $8.99 / month Netflix subscription -- all the Bible study materials you could want for an incredibly low monthly price."

$9 a month has absolutely nothing to do with what Logos could or would charge for a subscription, and I suggest we take that idea off the discussion table. Logos is not going to rent out for $9 a month what you paid thousands for. Again, this is beyond ridiculous.